The amazing, instant speed zalanthas justice system.

[jhunter]

I understand that there are virtual npcs around in the cities, that's understandable, but when a thug pc is hiding out in an alley filled with garbage and a sucker of an npc(the only hard-coded one in site) is hanging out there just waiting to be plucked like fruit from a vine, wouldn't you think that icly it would be very unlikely that there lurks about 50 others in that dismal, garbage filled alley just waiting to turn you in to the authorites? Also after the thug sneaks up on his foolish victim and makes his attempt at putting a knife in the vitals so he can relieve him of his coin and such, he happens to get spotted at the last minute but very quickly takes his victim and hides the body in the garbage of the alley. Meanwhile that one quick cry let out by the victim before his demise is instantaneusly picked up on buy the fifty or so others that happened to also be hiding out in the dark garbage-filled alley and all take it upon themselves to contact the ultimate anti-crime network of the Zalanthan city and in less than a second the thug is wanted by every npc in that city and must hope for a miracle to escape back through the city streets or go just turn himself in to the authorities to sit in a cell for some time. Now call me crazy but is it or is it not the most spectacularly effective justice system to ever exist? I completely understand there being many vnpcs in the city in various places, but some places should be a bit different, like for example a dark, garbage-filled alley... Couldn't there be some areas in the cities, if a pc was paying attention to their surroundings, that even a botched backstab in a dark alley is no reason, unless the npc runs to a more populated area after escaping their attacker, for the wrath of the impossibly fast justice system to doom them to the dungeons or death? I mean first of all it's just not very realistic that there are 50 virtual npcs all hanging out in the dark, garbage-filled alley. Secondly, even a botched backstab, if the npc fool doesn't escape his attacker to tell about it, shouldn't alert every npc in the city in less than a second with a full description of your pc and all, even non-soldier, non-templar npcs are willing and eager to attack you and try to kill or turn you over to authorities, most people wouldn't just go after a dangerous criminal unless it was their job to do so. Couldn't there be some delay period to becoming wanted all over the city? Maybe some time for the witness or witnesses of the crime to contact the proper authorities and for the authorities to get the word out? In many real-life situations that are similar, it takes a bit of time for a city wide, all encompassing manhunt to ever get going. First, witnesses relay their information to the authorities, if they feel inclined to do so. Then the authorities spread the word among their co-workers and maybe put up posters or travel the city warning and questioning people. Just the one and only thing that really aggravates me about Arm. Basically it just boils down to this: There are some places in the city where, provided the description fits, there shouldn't be an army of vnpcs waiting to turn you in. Next part of the same problem is: The justice system of the cities of Zalanthas is just too swift and perfect. It is neither realistic nor fair to the person playing their pc that is a criminal type of char, to be up against a justice system that is impossibly perfect and from which there is no escape.
My appologies for the complaints but it frustrates me and I think they are valid points.-jhunter

[LoD]

While not on topic, it is relevant.

Paragraphs.  Please.

This goes out to all of you crazy block writers of doom.  Make it easy on the eyes, organize your thoughts and more people will bother to read.

-LoD

[jhunter]

Here's my beef in a shorter version to those of you who are daunted by my very rough format above. I believe there shouldn't be as much vnpc coverage in the cites of Zalanthas. There are places where large groups just wouldn't be hanging out, like for example: a dark, garbage-filled alley. If a criminal char attempts what is in his or her nature to do, even if the intended victim does not leave the alley alive, every npc in Zalanthas is notified.
       This city wide notification includes an exact description of the criminal and happens INSTANTLY where upon each and every npc in the citywill attempt to kill or apprehend the criminal on site. Unless, somehow the char actually manages to make their way out of the city without encountering a soul. This is the biggest problem I have with Arm(don't get me wrong because for the most part it is the only problem I really have with Arm) This system of instant city wide notification is a completely impossible idea and as such makes it the most effective(if unrealistic and unfair to a criminal char) law enforcement in existence fanstasy or real.
How about some time from the actual infraction until there is a city wide man hunt??
       It takes some time for information to travel about a city, especially a large one. Also how come each and every citizen is more than happy to try and apprehend you for the authorities? This instant criminal status and notification across the city is very wrong to me.
       And how about some dark, deserted alleys, that are actually deserted? Except maybe for the foolish npc or pc who happens to wander there. I find it difficult to believe there are a bunch of vnpcs hanging out in each and every place of the cities.

Hope this makes it easier.
jhunter

[creeper386]

First of all... WHERE are you playing? Most of what your saying I haven't heard in any of the cities. There ARE places that don't have vNPCs and I would doubt every place would be CRAWLING with NPCs. All it takes is ONE person in that dark garbage filled ally to see something to get you in trouble. And in Zalanthas turning people in is common and quite easy. Just be glad noone came and killed you after seeing you kill some one.

Now, I have NO clue what your talking about when you say everyone attacks you after a crime. Only soldiers do that. Normal citizens don't, because they are that, citizens, they aren't guards or soldiers and they aren't armed to do the duty.

Also, if you take a look at the help files conserning contact and such, it well give some to how information gets about quickly. Everyone can send information psionically. Boom, here to there with the information alot quicker then your character can get anywhere.

And from what I've heard. There are PLENTY of places that don't have vNPCs, there are PLENTY of places/ways to do/get away with a crime. You just can't jump into any ally and such and just get away with anything.

Creeper

[jhunter]

Obviously you do not. Upon becoming wanted, in the less than a second that it took for the entire city to be notified of the crime...The char I am speaking of was assaulted some ways away from where the crime took place.

Not just guards, soldiers and the like mind you, but by just the average npc's that you see walking about the streets everyday! If this is not normal then the char was the victim of a bug. The "citizens" attempted to subdue the char and some attacked, with not a soldier or guard in sight.\

You can honestly say that one or two people upon seeing the crime can spread the word fast enough even with the chain effect from one char passing it on to another and so on and so forth that the entire city is instantly, fully informed about the appearance of the criminal, and everything EVEN USING THE WAY in less than a second???

That is absolutely absurd. If you want to stand by what you say let's try a little experiment. Have one or two chars way people with some information, and have everyone pass it along to as many people as they can. There is no way everyone in the entire city (The city is Tuluk if it really matters) will have this information within the span of a second.

I'm not trying to be confrontational about this but I think it is a valid point.

Be more than happy to hear any and all input from others on this subject.
-jhunter

[Quirk]

And from what I've heard. There are PLENTY of places that don't have vNPCs, there are PLENTY of places/ways to do/get away with a crime. You just can't jump into any ally and such and just get away with anything.

Creeper

Dunno who's told you that. The majority of the city outside the slums is filled with tattle-tale NPCs (the exceptions usually being people's apartments). In Tuluk, even the slums are law-abiding, patrolled by guards. Generally speaking, if you attack a PC or an NPC in a city, and you're not in the Rinth or the back alleys of Red Storm, you will be hunted as a criminal.

Tuluk is no place for crime. I ran a poll on this a little while back and was surprised how many people thought criminals didn't have it hard enough. Perhaps most of them, like Creeper, simply haven't tried the lifestyle themselves.

The general populace wading in does sound buggy though. Did you mail the mud, jhunter?

Quirk

[Quirk]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2200&highlight=

That's the poll I ran a week or two back.

Quirk

[Bakha]

I just want to address a few of your points. I don't really want to get into the specifics of the way the crim-code works, though, so I might not be as specific in places as you'd like.

Couldn't there be some areas in the cities, if a pc was paying attention to their surroundings, that even a botched backstab in a dark alley is no reason, unless the npc runs to a more populated area after escaping their attacker, for the wrath of the impossibly fast justice system to doom them to the dungeons or death?

There actually are many such places, at least in Allanak. If you come across a place that you feel is unrealistically populated, then make use of the idea command to suggest that the place be changed.

The second part of your suggestion involves the speed in which things happen. While I agree that the current system might be a tad unrealistic, the alternative just isn't feasible. PCs are far, far too capable of speedwalking into the Labyrinth or out the gates in about 30 seconds after committing a crime from anywhere in the city. Putting a delay on the relay of wanted information would give criminals the run of the town, as there would be zero way for them to ever get caught. It would go like this: do whatever you want, head out the city/into the 'rinth, wait out your wanted flag, and you're home free to return and do it again. It just isn't really feasible unfortunately. I think that the first part of your suggestion definitely has merit though, in that it's possible that some places are unrealistically populated by virtual inhabitants.

Finally, to address Quirk and New Tuluk. I was going to post in the previous thread pertaining to this, but I never did. I'll just say that the problem with Tuluk and criminal justice is acknowledged and is being worked upon. As is, I realize there is little opportunity in NT for the criminals out there. This is not our intention, and there should be steps taken in the near future to open up the city a little more for the criminal element.

However, don't expect a carbon copy of the way criminal justice in Allanak works. As with all things in New Tuluk, pains are being taken to give it a unique flavor.

Thanks for your patience and understanding,
Bakha

[krelin]

I played a pickpocket in New Tuluk for a while, and had a great time...  the only reason he died was my own idiocy (nosave off)....  NT needs something slightly more 'rinthish, but the labyrinth these days seems nearly unplayable, so I hope it doesn't go that far.

[jhunter]

Thank you for the post Bakha, I agree 100% about not making New Tuluk's criminal justice a carbon copy of Allanak's. Save for the problems I mentioned, I like New Tuluk.

I wasn't aware that a wanted flag could be waited out as the help file made it sound like you have only three choices if you become wanted: leave the city never to return, die, or sit in a dungeon. I would like to point out however that for a criminal dependant upon the city for their survival, leaving the city to wait out a wanted flag could very easily mean the death of most criminal type PCs, they simply aren't very well equipt to survive alone outside the city gates. Mainly I guess this pertains to New Tuluk, probably not so much in Allanak because of the existence of the Labrynth.

I am glad to hear that something is in the works to at least give a criminal type PC a decent chance for survival in New Tuluk. It is just way too hard for a PC of that type to get by using what they know best there.

Oh yeah. Hey Creeper,  by the way, you mentioned something earlier about: "You can't just jump into an alley and such and just get away with anything." Just to let you know, the PC I am speaking of spotted his potential victim hanging around in the alley apparently alone, he scouted around the area about a block's radius while carefully looking into the distance to make sure if anything went wrong there were no witnesses about, then quietly moved through the shadows until he got within striking range and made his attack. There was no jumping into an alley and blatantly attacking with no regard to his surroundings, the PC acted as a professional.

Thanks for the info.
-jhunter

[krelin]

There are -already- good places in New Tuluk to hide.

[Quirk]

Thanks for the response, Bakha; I'm greatly heartened to hear that things are being worked on.

Krelin: Yep, if you manage to evade the guards, you can get to a safe spot to hide out. Even so, there are no parts of the new city rough enough that you could get away with an assault a la the Rinth. And a critical fail when you try your hand at theft will almost certainly lead to capture.

Quirk

[krelin]

Being captured isn't all that bad, either.  Good way to make contacts, imho.

[Kalden]

It seems to me that VNPCs are being used irresponsibly in this. You can't mug them, you can't avoid them, can't scout for them, but they can turn you in. Doesn't make too much sense. Of course your thug isn't going to kill the NPC if there are others around. Since that one was the only one coded, he thought he could get away with it, and he should've been able too without the VNPCs tattling.

I think another thing that needs to be addressed is the time. At night, there are not going to be tons of VNPCs running around, and night is the time that thugs work. Not sure how bright the night would be in this desert world, but I'd imagine the average commoner can't waste his money on torches doing errands he could've done during the day. The ones that do walk at night... are risking their lives. I think if the night time was used effectively, it could show how the streets of Allanak or Tuluk are dangerous. Criminals abound, and people don't walk the streets alone at night.

So, basically, implement some way to use the night to the advantage of a thug.

[jhunter]

Exactly what I was thinking Kalden, at night in a garbage-filled alley, after scoping out the area thoroughly for anyone who might witness or interfere with the criminal's work...hrrrmmm.

The PC criminal had a golden oppourtunity to go to work, a lone fool, in a dark, garbage-filled alley, at night, with not a soul in earshot to hear his one cry before he was slain.

It is exactly this situation which showed me that something had to be said about it.

I know that here in my hometown if someone was foolishly in an alley at night in that situation, and the wrong person happened to see this...their family would have to file a missing persons report or identify a corpse. Without any evidence or trail left behind, the criminal would easily get away clean as a whistle. And even if there was any evidence, it would take an investigation by the authorities to figure anything out at all, by that time the criminal would be long gone.

Thanks for the responses folks!

-jhunter

[Anonymous]

I don't think you are necessarily taking the VNPC population of some locations into account.  Living in a police state I think its fair to assume that some of those VNPCs are not just cannon fodder commoners, but are either militia members, or those who want to stay in good with the militia by reporting crimes.

The way is a more effective means of communication than anything we currently have.

I appreciate what you are saying here, but its one of those scenarios where reality gives way to playability, IMHO.

[House Rising Sun]

I imagine it's difficult to balance things like this. Either you let criminal pcs slip by and "cheat" their way out of getting caught (like Bakha said) or you simply catch every one. If we try to find a middle ground there, we may end up putting whether you were seen or not to chance based on the room and the time and who you are. But random is cheap, it doesn't let professionals work their thing. So there'd have to be a skill. But then we'd have yet another thing to balance, as no doubt within days someone would figure out how to powergame it and terrorize the city.

I like to just accept the way the code is, because I'm a wuss, and figure out for myself the reasons things happened. If you got caught, your pc just fuckled up. It was dark, and nothing says criminals see in the dark. Perhaps you missed someone. Maybe someone heard a scream, which will carry far when it's quiet (ie unpopulated) and came a-running. Things like being attacked by citizen npcs are kinda dumb though. Bug it as everyone said, and for now pretend those npcs were just having bad days, or were part of a citizen's militia.

On the speed of wanted information travel, I have a theory. Both sorcerer-kings have these little pet dwarves that they keep in a dungeon, and they grant them limited powers like they do templars. They focus on the minds of everyone in the city's militia for those special thoughts of "crap, a criminal!" and instantly transfer the information to each other, and broadcast it to the rest of the city militia. Magickal dispatchers.

[Angela Christine]

I say suck it up, it is tough to be a thief and it is supposed to be tough.  This benefits the theives in two ways:

1. It keeps the total number of theives down, so less competition for the theives that stick with it.  In a H&S MUD it doesn't matter if half the character's are thieves, because thieves are as likely to prey on NPCs and go on "adventures" outside the cities as anyone else -- there isn't even much stigma in being a theif because adventuring parties need you to get past the locked door into the chamber with the NPC with cool loot.  In Arm most thieves are almost exclusively city characters, so their is a limited pool of victims.  Would you rather share that pool with 5 other PC thieves, or 40?  There is no karma requirement for the theifly classes, so the only thing that keeps the numbers in check is that it is difficult to be a successful theif.

2.  The Criminal Code protects criminals.  In most cases, the super-speed NPC run Criminal Code is much more leinient than PCs would be.  There are occasional weird results, but most of the time a PC with Nosave on will get dragged off to spend a day in the cells, then turned loose in the streets without his weapons but basically unharmed.  If the crim code wasn't protecting the thieves, a failed theft attempt against warrior PC would often result in the warrior turning and bashing your skull in . . . and newbie theives fail often.  Being in jail is dull, but the punishment is actually absurdly light for playability reasons.  Unless you get lucky and a PC Templar decides to check the cells, you are basically getting let off with just a tap on the wrist.  The crim code prevents "law abiding" PCs from forming vigilantie gangs and killing off every elf and suspected theif PC.

AC

[jhunter]

Acriminal PC has a much better chance escaping PC's intent on bringing them down than escaping the code.

Noone escapes the code of the game, unless you just don't play.

It'd be plenty tough enough without being coded against them as harshly.

Who says having a Templar check the cells is a bad thing if the PC criminal has a quick wit and actually maninpulates the Templar by catering to their ego.

Not trying to be too conflicting with ya but I thought we were talking about Arm not just some H&S mud?

Oh yeah and that warrior PC who just caughe me with my hand in his pocket?
Betcha I can run away before he even brings his weapon to bear, tuck myself into a bucket nearby and snicker to myself while he runs like a madman through the city with his weapon drawn.

The code is by no means easier on the criminal element than the PC's could be, THEY'D have to find the thief first. Any thief who gets caught sticking his hand into the big burly warrior's pocket and just stands there deserves to get splattered in the street. Also, the Pc's aren't in every little nook and cranny of the city.

A tap on the wrist...hrrmm you go sit in the cells get released without any weapons...absurdly light...

Your missing the point, it is too easy to get caught and thrown there, part of a crminal characters abilities comes into play after a botched attempt, TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM THE DUNGEON OR DEATH, there is very little room for a thief to even try and avoid the dungeons or death after a botched attempt...die or turn yourself in are your two choices. Part of playing a criminal in my opinion is learning how best to avoid the dungeons or death while working. Which by not having any chance of escaping them takes away from playing the char. You botch an attempt and you are instantly doomed to the dungeons if you don't resist and to die if you do. It would be like if warriors could only attack and couldn't parry or dodge.

Anyways, keep 'em coming.
-jhunter

[creeper386]

Jhunter, I think ACs point in that the crime code benefits the thieves and is easier on them then PCs would be comes into fact that if you attack a thief, the crime codes now after YOU as well. You have little to no recourse if you find a thief trying to steal something from you. You can RP calling the guards but that doesn't do anything unless you also wish up and an Imm happens to be around, by then the thieves normally gone.

So instead of the thief getting his head bashed in, he's protected by the crime code and gets to run off. If it's not a major failure he wouldn't be instantly flagged a criminal. And he's basically scott free, probably going to die before any PCs with the ability to do something gets around to go after him, or he's just long gone and hidden down a hole because PC law people aren't that many.

Also, the soldiers don't kill people. If a thief is caught, he's tossed in a cell to be let out later. If a templar DOES happen to come along, the only way your most likely going to get into more trouble is if you mouth off(Which noone in their right mind would be doing) Or your caught with contraband. More often then not I can see people getting more of an advantage with a templar shows up as long as the don't act stupidly.

This brings up an idea... A good thief PURPOSELY getting caught stealing so he can secretly meet with his Templar employer with non the wiser...

Creeper found a new use for being able to lesson your skills... Not everyone wants to succeed all the time.

[Rindan]

This brings up an idea... A good thief PURPOSELY getting caught stealing so he can secretly meet with his Templar employer with non the wiser...

Creeper found a new use for being able to lesson your skills... Not everyone wants to succeed all the time.

>nosave
>steal helmet militia

That said, I still like the idea of lowering skills.

[Angela Christine]

Acriminal PC has a much better chance escaping PC's intent on bringing them down than escaping the code.

You underestimate the abilities of other PCs.  

Who says having a Templar check the cells is a bad thing if the PC criminal has a quick wit and actually maninpulates the Templar by catering to their ego.

It isn't always a bad thing, but occasionally it is a very bad thing.  A certain number of Templar encounters end in death, death is usually worse than spending 20 minutes in the cells.

Not trying to be too conflicting with ya but I thought we were talking about Arm not just some H&S mud?

People get angry when criminals try to victimize them.  It is perfectly IC for some characters to try to take the law into their own hands, seeing as the Templar's aren't nearly as nice as the folks on the People's Court.  A templar in a bad mood may fine someone reporting a petty crime for wasting his time.  

They may not want to kill you, but just beat the shit out of you and take all your stuff.  Vigilante justice, not H&S.

Oh yeah and that warrior PC who just caughe me with my hand in his pocket?
Betcha I can run away before he even brings his weapon to bear, tuck myself into a bucket nearby and snicker to myself while he runs like a madman through the city with his weapon drawn.

Depends.  Does he have friends in the room?  Do you?  Does he subdue you instead of drawing a weapon?  Does he, or one of his friends, have Hunt and Scan skills that will let them track you to the ends of the known world and find you wherever you hide?  Is he, or one of his friends, in possession of magickal or mindbending abilities?  Are in The Guild or some other organization that can shelter you indefinately?  PCs take longer to forgive and forget than the code.

The code is by no means easier on the criminal element than the PC's could be, THEY'D have to find the thief first. Any thief who gets caught sticking his hand into the big burly warrior's pocket and just stands there deserves to get splattered in the street. Also, the Pc's aren't in every little nook and cranny of the city.

There aren't NPCs everywhere either.  There are plenty of places you can go where NPC soldiers won't find you, if you've got a good at your Hide skill you can hide out in a public area, because most mobile NPCs don't use Scan.  I don't know where you could cool your heels in Luirs or the DE outpost, but there are plenty of hidey holes in 'Nak, Tuluk and even Red Storm.

You know that the wanted flag expires, right?  The soldiers know about a reported crime instantly, but they forget about it pretty soon.  Like jail sentances the flag only ticks away while you are logged on, but it does go away.  For petty crimes like pickpocketing they won't remember you for long.  Something like a defiler gathering mana in the middle of town might get a permanent wanted flag, but for most crimes it is a temporary flag.  So you either get arrested, hide out somewhere in town until the flag expires, or find a way out of town and live in another town where you aren't wanted until the flag expires.

A tap on the wrist...hrrmm you go sit in the cells get released without any weapons...absurdly light...

Yeah, in a culture like Zalanthas you'd expect thieves to be whipped, have a hand cut off, be sentanced to work as a slave in the mines (or equivelent) for a few years, be sentanced to be fodder in the arena, be killed, or be sent to a penal colony in Australia.  :wink:  Something severe and awful.  Most of the times when I've been arrested, I've been released in less than one IC day, it seemed pretty light to me.  

It was before my time, but apparently they used to strip you of everything and give you a loincloth in the jails, then turn you loose with nothing but that loincloth.  That was more severe, and I can easily picture the soldiers or Templars taking all your stuff while you are in jail, but it was changed for playability reasons.  Losing your weapons is nothing.  If you are going to make a living as a criminal, then don't carry expensive weapons.  Or drop your weapons as soon as you get wanted/subdued, maybe they will still be there when you get out.  It sounds unlikely, but I once got arrested while on a kank, and when I was released from jail later my kank was still standing at the gates, but I'm sure someone would have gotten around to stealing it soon.   :twisted:  Some people may have found ways to smuggle weapons, but that would be up to you to find out IC.

Your missing the point, it is too easy to get caught and thrown there, part of a crminal characters abilities comes into play after a botched attempt, TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM THE DUNGEON OR DEATH, there is very little room for a thief to even try and avoid the dungeons or death after a botched attempt...die or turn yourself in are your two choices. Part of playing a criminal in my opinion is learning how best to avoid the dungeons or death while working. Which by not having any chance of escaping them takes away from playing the char. You botch an attempt and you are instantly doomed to the dungeons if you don't resist and to die if you do.

As a few other people have said, it is possible to escape capture, then you wait for you wanted flag to expire, and you are back in buisness.  There are ways to escape capture, finding them for yourself IC is part of being a thief.  

AC

[jhunter]

AC-I agree with some of the things you said on your post above, many of them are true in certain situations. I do know that it is possible to smuggle weapons in. :twisted:

I hadn't known before I started this topic that a wanted flag could be waited out. The help file on the subject, if I remember correctly, doesn' say a thing about that but I could be wrong.

Thanks for your post, but any way you slice it, the less than one second notification of the entire city of your new criminal status is unrealistic(even with the way) and more than any criminal in real life has to deal with even. Also, there are places populated with vnpc's at times and places where they shouldn't be.

Thanks alot guys, if anyone else has anything to say about this topic please do, and if anyone has any idea how long it takes to wait out a wanted flag, I'm curious to know 'cause it would sure stink if you became wanted and it takes hours in real time to wait out the flag, you couldn't get to a place to leave the game without risking a bunch of guards and templars and you really needed to go OOC.

Beware kanks, they are secretly plottin against us all.

[creeper386]

Also, there are places populated with vnpc's at times and places where they shouldn't be.

I'm just going to have to ask you this... But really for the most part, how many places do you think there is going to be NO people at all around. Period?

A stanky alley way at night? Heck, bet alot of people find some nice cozy places to sleep in those alleys. An abandon building? Fla, same thing. Maybe a nice deserted street? Well go to any big city, it's unlikely to find a completely deserted street, or alley or abandon building for that matter. Yet most the time you can find plenty of them in Zalanthas.

But for the most part... If there are NPCs around there is a good chance there are going to be vNPCs... From my knowledge, I'd sure someone well correct me if I'm wrong, NPCs represent a SMALL sample of the PRESENT population. So normally places with NPCs wandering about are going to have other people wondering about as well... Thats just my take for it.

Also want to add, vNPCs may be able to make you wanted... But I don't think they acctually CALL guards, nor do they arrest you yourself, so you can be glad that only NPCs or PCs can acctually catch you.

Creeper, who personally thinks people complain too much about crime things... Specially when he's seen alot harsher code, and crime would still run crazy, Zalanthas is rather soft on it's criminals.

[jhunter]

From what I'm gathering from people's responses about the crim code I've seen posted anywhere on the GDB. Most players seem to support it and are happy with it even though it is extremely unrealistic.

The way it is really starting to sound to me is that not many players play criminal pcs and the truth of the matter is that since they don't they are much happier having the crim system be unreasonably accurate and fast, since OOC they know that npc criminals don't steal from their chars and only pc criminals will. I'm seeing some absurd things said just to support the ridiculously supreme justice system.

Creeper, in answer to your question, I've lived in alot of different places around the country, big and small and in EVERY one of them I've seen completely empty alleys and streets at night, just depends on how close you happen to be to commercial areas. Usually residential areas late at night are almost completely devoid of activity in alleys or sidestreets. I don't know where you live but go out and find a residential area in your cityand go into an alley or side road and look around at 3am, chances are as long as you aren't too close to a commercial area you'll be the only one out there or you will see very little activity.


'

[Anonymous]

The way it is really starting to sound to me is that not many players play criminal pcs and the truth of the matter is that since they don't they are much happier having the crim system be unreasonably accurate and fast, since OOC they know that npc criminals don't steal from their chars and only pc criminals will.

I don't think that's a fair statment.

I've played thieves and rulebreakers and I'm glad that the crim system works the way it did.  My thiefy type PC got caught in Allanak a few times, but he'd get away (crim-flagged or not) 80-90% of the time even in the early part of his thieving career.

Nosave is your friend but often times my PC would get away by simply watching where he was going and not attempting crimes unless:

• Visibility was low and he was near a place he considered a safe hideout.
  
• He had a clear path back to his "safe" spot if he was venturing a little further away and visibility was high.
  
• There were no visible city militia anywhere nearby.
  

Trust me, an ounce of leniency would result in almost noone getting caught and, IMHO, there's been too many past cases of people spam stealing to justify inserting some latency in the time it takes for your description to be wayed around to all of the militia.

I'm seeing some absurd things said just to support the ridiculously supreme justice system.

I'd replace the word 'ridiculously' with the word 'necessary' in the statement above, personally.

Realism gives way to playability issues in this case due to the recurring abuse of thiefy type PCs.

Anything other than an immediate crim-flag will result in a lot of code exploitation, IMHO.

[Angela Christine]

The crim code is unrealist, no one disputes that.  It is too effective, and at the same time too easy to circumvent and too lenient.  Untill we get to the point where there can be 50-100 militia/legionaires/city guard on all the time, we have to suffer with the bumbling NPCs, and NPCs are really, really stupid.  I've known hamsters smarter than the average NPC, and that's pretty darn stupid.  The code and the law enforcement NPCs act in unrealistic ways, but hopefully they are balanced.  They act faster than PCs, but they have no inititive and forget about things pretty quickly.

I've played every non-karma class there is.  I'll admit I prefer Rangers and Merchants, but I've played the thief classes and rinthers before, and I expect I will again.  OOCly I have nothing against thief PCs.  Sure, I like that successful thieves are kept down to a clever minority, because a few intelligent thieves are better than dozens of so-so theives.  There have been times when people were getting their weapons stollen off their belts 2-3 times in a RL week, and that gets to be a pain in the ass.  There have been times when people find their locks picked every single day, eventually forcing them to stop buying non-virtual furnature and makeing PC housing almost worthless.  But having no thieves at all would be bad too.  

Some people have advocated adding a karma requirement to the thief classes.  I don't think that is desirable, or necessary.  The difficulty in being a successful thief keeps the numbers reasonable.

AC

[creeper386]

Acctually, I live in a small town, very small, the streets are empty at five o clock, but if you go out doing bad things, someone almost always notices. They may not know that it's you, but they'd see it out their window or something driving by. Even if it's in the middle of the night very rarely does a crime go by without being seen.

Now, bigger cities, yes your going to find empty alleys and such, but people are still about. They are in buildings, they are on the streets. They have ears and eyes. It seems to me that Allanak and the other cities are like medevil cities for the most part. It isn't dramatically large compared to it's population. There is people all over the place. You'd have to be careful, and if you screw up your going to have troubles. If you succeed you probably well pull it off.

Now, I don't see how you can say people OOCily support the criminal code because they don't like getting stolen from... NPCs kill some PC thief or throw him in jail and a templar kills him. PCs loose there things. PCs have NO recourse against thieves, even if they hunt them down. If something gets stolen from you it's basically gone, you have little chance to get anything back. Which REALLY sucks.  And considering I've had many character that go about and get robbed nearly every time I log on... And the thieves I've played have little problems failing too much when stealing... It must not be that hard if you play it smart.

Basically, don't expect anything to be easy... For the most part it's nothings easy in Zalanthas. And you think the crime code is bad... Should go out and get insta killed by ONE spear. Not even with a chance for poison to set in, it's thrown and your dead. That sucks alot more then spending a few minutes in jail.

Creeper

[Rindan]

The way it is really starting to sound to me is that not many players play criminal pcs and the truth of the matter is that since they don't they are much happier having the crim system be unreasonably accurate and fast, since OOC they know that npc criminals don't steal from their chars and only pc criminals will. I'm seeing some absurd things said just to support the ridiculously supreme justice system.

I have played a fair number of thieves in my days, and a fair number of them lived to grow old.  Is the crime code unrealistic?  Absolutely.  However, I have yet to see anyone offer a suggest that is reasonable to code that makes it more realistic.  True, there are things that could be done to make certain aspects of the crime code realistic, but one piece can not be hyper realistic while other pieces are not.  Namely, you can't make it 'realistic' in terms of NPCs inability to spread word of your misdeeds quickly, and at the same time keep it so that they are too stupid to actually chase you or respond to a crime by sending soldiers to investigate.

Making the crime code into something truly realistic and interesting would require one of the most dramatic overhauls of the game to date.  Perhaps at some point an ambitious coder will take it up to code militia who have to react in a realistic fashion yet are also intelligent enough to make escape not something that is terribly easy.  Any such project would be far from minor and not the sort of thing you can really demand an imm to do.  It is one thing to ask for archery to be tweaked so that shield block arrows more.  That is a relatively painless change.  Something like completely overhauling the crime code system is something that is very painful and requires some serious programming skills and dedication to the project.  There are a lot of systems in game that could be better.  Combat, mounts, desert travel, delays on skills, and weather are all things that I am sure most people agree have some room for improvement (there is always room for improvement), but messing with these systems is simply hard.

More important then having a realistic crime system, especially when a realistic crime system is not a very feasible option code wise, is a well simulated crime system.  In other words, it is more important that the crime system reflect roughly about how often a criminal gets caught then it is to reflect the way a criminal avoids getting caught.  It is much easier to roughly simulate the outcome then it is to simulate all the steps in between.

In the case of the crime code, once you start to learn and understand it, you will realize that it is very forgiving for most things.  Once you figure it out, it is very easy to avoid capture.  Avoiding capture almost without fail is simply a matter of staying away from militia NPCs.  Before committing a crime just make sure that you have a way to a safe spot.  You will be more restricted in where you can do your misdeeds, but you can get away with what you do do almost without fail.   A careless thief will find themselves in a locked cell often.  A thief who plans a little will general find that the crime code just means he has to sit still for a few minutes while his wanted flag wears off.  

To give you an idea of what is possible; my most recent thief was never once caught by an NPC militia man.  The crime code is very forgiving to those who are prepared.  Additionally, if you want to do something special, just talk it over with an imm.  For instance, if you want to assassinate Lord Inbreed Oash in the Traders, and you have come up with a witty way to escape the soldiers that would of course answer such a disturbance, then talk to an imm about it.  The worst they can do is tell you no.

[Lazloth]

When we talk crim code, I assume this is Allanak.  I think the whole paradigm is poorly implemented, personally.  After three hours of euchre, I'm seeing spots, so pardon the random blather.

A possible short-term solution:
a.) strip the wanted information from score.  Having this OOC construct available at your fingertips just encourages twinkies; [note, regardless of any future changes to crim code, I would do this]
b.) increase the timer on being wanted;
c.) implement a delay before the wanted affect is incurred based on, for example, some of the stuff in John's discussion (how populated the area is, blah blah).

[crymerci]

I second all of Lazloth's ideas, and add my own:

d. The ability to surrender (not via nosave but via a surrender command) for a slightly reduced sentence. (Would have to be combined with a short delay before arrest when in the same room as a soldier.)
e. The ability to pay the arresting soldier a 'fine' instead of surrendering weapons and serving time.

[creeper386]

Problem is... Normally you could tell when people are actively searching for you. Now, once they stop searching for you probably going to be alot less people looking for you. Maybe a PC or two. Then it's be difficult to tell...

I think leaving the wanted in score or wherever it is, is something thats acctually benificial. Just because if your strolling around... You don't GET the chance to run away when that soldier spots you and charges your way, your just instantly subdued, which isn't cool.

I think that wanted wherever it is... Is just to say, if you go near soldiers, they well be coming after you. Which it's easy to figure out most the time. The crowd spreads as the soldier draws his weapon and charges your direction and such... Yeah.

Creeper who says, ignore me.

[Angela Christine]

Yeah, I was surprised the first time I became wanted and saw that you can tell in a sort of OOC way when you are (or aren't) wanted.  In a hyper-realistic simulation the soldiers wouldn't all forget about at the same time; the half-giants might forget after just an hour or two if no one reminds them, the others would vary with some hard-asses possibly remembering you for months after your crime, especially if you are a repeat offender.  In a hyper-realistic setting you wouldn't be able to sit in a hole and know automagically when they have given up hunting for you.

On the other hand you probably could hire some rinth kids, a begger/snoop, or a couple of your buddies to scope out the town and see if the heat is off yet.  Unfortunately, this won't work.  As far as I know, even a militia or templar PC can't tell if you are wanted just by hearing your name and description, only the NPCs know for sure.  So you can't even have your buddy bribe a militia man to tell him whether they are still looking for you.  Since these practical and IC ways of finding out are unavailable, you get that niggling little line listing all the places you are wanted.  It's a little too accurate, but better than nothing.

See, I'm not totally committed to screwing over criminal PCs.  

AC

[crymerci]

Oh, I thought of something else, not really related to how you get arrested but:

It would be nice if you could pay to retreive your weapons after being released from jail. Obviously you might not care about those 5 wavy-bladed bone daggers you 'just happened' to be carrying, but if you had a weapon with particular sentimental or other value..

Ooh, or the templarate could auction off any particularly nice pieces they accumulate over a month/year.

[Shinigami]

This is already in place, crymerci.  For the low, low (sometimes astronomically high) price of a templar's bribe you too can retrieve your father's sword from the templarate storerooms.  Just seek out a pc templar, describe what was lost, and pay the appropriate "fees".  Of course, some things do get *ahem* lost in the shuffle, and who knows... maybe the templar knew your father and has a similiar feeling towards his steel longsword.  :wink:

Also, templars are known to carry around a fair bit of confiscated items from time to time, usually selling them back to Salarri merchants. So who knows, maybe your sentimental piece of stone is still out there... somewhere.

[John]

I like ALL of these ideas for getting your weapons back. I also propose a third idea. Have a chest that the NPCs put the weapons into (without a lock). Then make a check so if any non-militia touches that chest (unless their successfully hidden) the guards say "oi! don't take that" and it gets closed again. This allows uber-skilled thieves to steal weapons from the guards (cause I imagine that room would require you to be uber-uber-uber skilled in hide) but it also allows your every day militia to get the weapons and do whatever.

I also think weapons that are uber expensive WOULDN'T be sellable back to the criminal. This is because they'd most likely be shown to a Templar.

[Bakha]

All I can say is that anyone wanting to play a successful thief, should re-examine Rindan's post. I almost hate to point it out again, because it borders on the point of explaining game mechanics and giving potential thieves' too much of an advantage. However, I think it's totally acceptable and provides a realistic and effective way to successfully get away with a crime.

Jhunter,

Your ideas are valid. However, I know that you're fairly new to the game. I would suggest that you try out some of Rindan's pointers before continuing to criticize the criminal code. I'm not convinced that you've fully grasped all of the ways that you, as a criminal PC, can realistically get away with a crime. I'm not telling you to suck it up, but I am telling you to give it some time and continue to explore the possibilities before dismissing offhand the system that is already in place.

Cheers,
Bakha