Marraige help?

[Father what's that verse?]

I know that there was a subject on this recently, involving *how* marraiges work. But I was wondering about another aspect of it.

Multiple husbands/wives.

Is it looked down upon for men to have several wives, or for wives to have several husbands by the general populace? Or is geared more towards as "if you can support it, then have fun" type of setting?

Any comments, or random thoughts on this subject, or anything relative is appreciated, thanks guys and gals!

[John]

Well I know the Imms at least (especially Sanvean) like to encourage people not to have traditional western marriages. IMO having multiple wives/husbands would be a sign of wealth, so it wouldn't be so much as looked down upon, but admired. Sure single people might have a chuckle and shake their head at the thought of having a partner or multiple partners, but for the most part people wouldn't look down at it.

Also, women shouldn't wait for guys to ask. Women should also have one-night stands as often as guys and NOT be labelled as sluts. There is no such thing as female sluts unless there are such things as male sluts as well.

Also. Heterosexual marriages shouldn't be the majority. They should occur as often as homosexual marriages. IMO most people in zalanthas would probably be bisexual (IRL I'm heterosexual in case you were wondering). Also, you don't have to have kids to your wife. Maybe your wife's sister really wants kids but doesn't want to marry. So she asks you to sleep with her. It should be perfectly fine. The reason for that being is a kid = a mouth to feed. So you probably don't want to have to support a male AND a female as well as a kid. So you get rid of one of the people in the equations. Single dads would probably be just as common. You can either pay the female for the child (some guys do like to have children y'know) or the female dies in childbirth.

I say down with married heterosexuals and up with promiscuous bisexuals.

[Fedaykin]

Also. Heterosexual marriages shouldn't be the majority. They should occur as often as homosexual marriages. IMO most people in zalanthas would probably be bisexual

Huh, what?  Where did you come up with that?  Maybe you could state why you feel that way?

I don't care how different Zalanthas thinking is from Western/Earth thinking, Man and Woman coupling is still the natural order of things, strictly on a species level of thinking with no moral or religious influence. Therefore heterosexual coupling, married or non-married, would almost certainly out number homsexual relationships of any sort.

In the alternate, I think you might even see less homosexuality on Zalanthas than on Earth.  Our philosophies as a society are becoming fairly liberal, I think, with regard to homosexual relationships.  However, on Zalanthas, we're talking about a desert world where survival is extremely dificult.  As such, I think there would be a stronger drive toward heterosexuality than we have on Earth, whether it be concious or unconcious, to ensure the survival of the species in the harsh world.

[Sandferret]

John wrote:

Women should also have one-night stands as often as guys and NOT be labelled as sluts.

Unfortunately, this does not happen in the game. I had a character who had three relationships in her lifetime, not simultaneuosly. She certainly got labelled badly. Another character of mine got labelled a slut simply for admiring good looking men. She never had more than a kiss...but she was a slut and a whore anyway.

This all was even more annoying, because where I come from a woman with three consequtive relationships in a lifetime is not called a slut these days.  :roll:

[Lazloth]

Any comments, or random thoughts on this subject, or anything relative is appreciated, thanks guys and gals!

There are a number of threads still active on the GDB that may give you what you seek.  Click here, here or here.

I don't care how different Zalanthas thinking is from Western/Earth thinking, Man and Woman coupling is still the natural order of things, strictly on a species level of thinking with no moral or religious influence. Therefore heterosexual coupling, married or non-married, would almost certainly out number homsexual relationships of any sort.

On the basis of procreation, I agree, a-yup.

[crymerci]

I had a character who had three relationships in her lifetime, not simultaneuosly. She certainly got labelled badly. Another character of mine got labelled a slut simply for admiring good looking men. She never had more than a kiss...but she was a slut and a whore anyway.

So true, so true. I will say, however, that it can be a lot of fun to play along with the stupid prudery and enjoy playing a slut. Not easy, necessarily, but it can be entertaining.

Also... people will gossip whether it's true or not, so even if your character is celibate they could get a rep as a 'slut'. Not much you can do about it.

[John]

Also. Heterosexual marriages shouldn't be the majority. They should occur as often as homosexual marriages. IMO most people in zalanthas would probably be bisexual

Where did you come up with that?  Maybe you could state why you feel that way?

Well I might of gotten a bit carried away with the bisexuality being the most prominant, but it seemed like a logical step in my thinking.  :roll:

Man and Woman coupling is still the natural order of things, strictly on a species level to ensure the survival of the species

I agree, for non-sentient animals that probably is true (even though on Earth we do have SOME animals who're gay, but let's not get into that ).

I think you might even see less homosexuality on Zalanthas than on Earth.  Our philosophies as a society are becoming fairly liberal, I think, with regard to homosexual relationships.

I disagree for a variety of reasons:

• The Imms have said in the past there is no homophobia. So why wouldn't people try it if there is no social stigma against it?
  
• Homosexuals have been around for a while. You can go to places in certain countries and go to whorehouses where there are male prostitutes and (AFAIK) this is completely fine. IIRC someone said here before that some cultures undergo homosexual activities and believe it helps shape the children.
  
• I doubt people in the cities are as concerened about procreation as us PCs seem to be. If they were then mulmix would be banned.
  
• Also, the main reason homosexuality has dissapeared in our society is because of the Christian influence in the shaping of our society (which was mainly influenced by the religions Christianity was expanded upon). The Zalanthans have been around just as much if not more then us humans so any "natural" belief's would have dissapeared. (Not flaming Christians, just stating a historical fact (AFAIK)).
  
• Yes, some tribes would ban homosexuality because they'd be finding it difficult to keep the population up, but they'd also probably be just as likely to ban mulmix (the Zalanthan contraceptive).
  
• While tribes want to keep their tribe alive and prospering, they also don't want to overpopulate their tribe or else they'll become a strain on the resources. So as a method of population control they'd either have abstinance (that's no fun for everyone), mulmix (but you have to lug the supplies around), eating children (but the females do become useless for a little while) or homosexuality. For that reason I don't see too many tribes hating homosexuality. They would probably have ceremonies once a yr or once every X amount of time where there is an orgy of sex and everyone has sex with everyone else. Advantages to this are that it creates a lot of genetic variations and if they DO practice abstinance it lets them release A LOT of hormones.
  

So as you can see I went from homosexuality and heterosexuality would be about equal to bisexuals should be the most common.  :roll:

These are just my views and how I'd like to see things be (and no. It isn't so I can mudsex), but how things end up being depends mainly on the players.

[Fedaykin]

• The Imms have said in the past there is no homophobia. So why wouldn't people try it if there is no social stigma against it?

I disagree.  Simply because there is no stigma against something does not mean people are going to try it.  And, if indeed they did try it, it doesn't mean its something they would stick with.

• Homosexuals have been around for a while. You can go to places in certain countries and go to whorehouses where there are male prostitutes and (AFAIK) this is completely fine. IIRC someone said here before that some cultures undergo homosexual activities and believe it helps shape the children.

First, just because someone said, that by no means makes it true.  Secondly, you state such countries with no stigma against sexual liberation and homosexuality exist, and yet I'm willing to bet that the populations in these countries are still predomanantly heterosexual.

• Also, the main reason homosexuality has dissapeared in our society is because of the Christian influence in the shaping of our society...

Considering some satistics rate ten percent of the populace as homosexual, and the fact that we (at least in the U.S.) live in a society which holds gay right parades and is comprised of many openly homosexual people, I don't think homosexuality has disappeared.  Still, there is no evidence anywhere which shows that countries which lack this stigmata, or from history that is pre-Christianity, that homosexuality or bisexuality existed in the ratios you speak of.  Sure, evidence of homosexuality in Ancient Greece does exist, but still not nearly at the levels you're talking about.

They would probably have ceremonies once a yr or once every X amount of time where there is an orgy of sex and everyone has sex with everyone else. Advantages to this are that it creates a lot of genetic variations and if they DO practice abstinance it lets them release A LOT of hormones.

I both agree and disagree with this.  I do think it is possible that certain groups on Zalanthas might hold orgies, similar to the Fremen seitch orgies that it exist in Dune.  However, I think they'd exist more to strengthen the sense of community in any tribe/organization holding them then for burpose of genetic variation.  Zalanthians would know nothing of genetic diversification and gene pools.  This still doesn't mean that in an orgy, everyone will suddenly go AC/DC though.

In such a harsh world, I think people are less likely to go pleasure seeking with members of the same sex and stick with the natural order of things.  I know its debateable, but I believe that due to genetics and natural instincts, most people are going to be attracted to members of the opposite sex.  Sexual dabling and experimentation with homosexuality would probably be left to the people with the lifestyle that would allow them to seek such pursuits, i.e. the upper class.  Excessive sex and pleasure pursuits are typically for people with extra time on their hands, not those trying to eek out their survival on a day to day basis, as most Zalanthans do.

Still, opinions are debateable, and I don't think the ratios you're proposing will ever be represented in the PC, NPC or VNPC populace, and at least in my opinion, should not be.

[Edit]Thanks for pointing out the stigmata.  I didn't mean people should be bleeding from their hands and heads in a christ-like way, heh.

[Sanvean]

I believe the word you are looking for is stigma, not stigmata, which has a very specific meaning

I think people have recapped my viewpoint about homosexuality on Armageddon pretty accurately, but to recap, there is to my mind no reason why it shouldn't exist in the Zalanthan world in much the same proportion as our own, a figure which carries according to who you talk to. I go by the 1 in 10 figure. As also stated, I think we should avoid imposing a modern Western definition of marriage on the game. There's at least a couple of clans whose docs specifically define relationships as non-monogamous or polygamous.

[crymerci]

I think that the extreme harshness of the lifestyle would make population control more likely, as children would be such a burden for the average commoner to provide for. Thus, I do agree that 'alternative' sexual practices might not be uncommon.

[Barzalene]

I was always under the impression that all marriage on Zalanthas is political. People in love just fuck.

[Anonymous]

I was always under the impression that all marriage on Zalanthas is political. People in love just fuck.

You should write hallmark cards.  That was beautiful.

[krelin]

The main problem with having multiple wives is...  women are expensive.   :twisted:

[Impska]

If homosexuality is acceptable and multiple marriages is acceptable, then in places/tribes that are worried about multiplying enough to maintain themselves, maybe the gay people would have a family union on one side and a love union on the other side.

A family union could be heterosexual only for the purposes of creating and raising children; or they could pick up a deceased person's mate/kids and support them. Or in the case of male homosexuals, support a woman whose chosen lovemuffin has too many wives or children to want more. Under the assumption that certain homosexuals would never feel the need to have intercourse with the opposite sex, and so never have children, helping to raise other children or stealing children from other tribes/areas would seem workable.

Well, anyway... just wanted to say it's doable without breaking "natural laws of reproduction on Zalanthas" or whatever you want to call it.

[Angela Christine]

I remember some novel, it might have been Clan of the Cave Bear, the main character visits a village and in one tent live two women and one man.  He assumes it is a man and his two mates, but it turns out it is a woman and her two mates (one male and one female, if you are keeping score).  Mulitiple relationships don't necessarily have to be kept seperate.  

Look up polyamory on the 'net, these folks believe it is possible (perhaps even natural) to love more than one person at a time.  Not just lust after, but love.  Some of them have households with children more than two adults, and all of the adults are considered "parents" by the family.  It's a practical solution, at least for people who can deal with the emotional complexity of the situation, because there is usually someone available to take care of the kids, and it is more stable financially too.  3 or 4 working adults living in one house will have lower expenses than if they were maintaining 3 or 4 seperate homes.  And if one of the adults loses their job or is injured and unable to work for a while, it is much less catastrophic than in a 1 or 2 adult household.

So if a fellow is living with his female lover and his male lover all in one hut, the family will in some ways be better off than if the male lover was living seperately.  The female will be the only who gives birth to the family's children, but there will be three adults to care for them and three adults to hunt and gather the food for the family.  There are 3 adults responsible for the children, which means that all 3 (rather than 2) will have to be killed before the children become orphans.  What is not to like?

Plenty of people in our socities don't bother with a marriage ceremony any more, they just shack up together and after a while it is considered a common law marriage.  Many commoners in Zalanthas might not bother with a big marriage ceremony, they just move in together and raise a family.


AC

[ShaLeah]

Must... resist... posting.... Arrrrrrgh!!!

I wasn't gonna but I have to, damnit.  Being a female that plays females all the time (I have yet to make my ruggedly handsome testosteroner) I can tell you that having more than one mate on Zalanthas is damn near impossible.  One of my characters was a brazen little mercenary, she only had one mate at a time but that was -her- choice, she just happened to like kanking the hell out of this little innocent man and getting him out of his prudish little shell. On the other hand, I had a character who was with a total of three in her lifetime and all of which, every last one of those males made mention of the following:

You are the only one for me, there has never will be or ever will be another, I want to be with you for the rest of my life! I'm just old fashioned and want to be with -one- person and that person, my little globule of honey, is you.

You have -no- idea how frustrating that is when your character would never really mate with just one person.  In my warped perception of how things should be I always pictured nobles with one legal spouse and a hoarde of assistants and sex slaves. Very close to that scene in "History of the World" where Empress Nympho (thanks to j0ram) selects men from a line up by checking penis size. I always pictured wealthy commoners as refraining from marriage unless it was for love but having the occassional side-kick for those lengthy business dinners with templars and nobles alike. Slaves that chose to mate would do so with the knowledge that any offspring would be born into slavery and would probably choose to only mate -with- another slave, the likelyhood that they would get to raise that child is like... nill.

I think more importantly we need to ask ourselves -why- these things are not more common.  Just a couple of theories?

-Any good looking female PC is thought about as an F'me'PC automatically, both men and women, the women seem to suffer the blunt edge of this and immediately the PC's looking at her will grunt and roll their eyes, please correct me if I am wrong.
-Sexuality (in particular emoting out a sexual scene) is frowned upon by so many people that people feel safer ooc'ing through it so that a reputation as a mud slut is avoided, sadly, that doesn't really work either.
-You can't make a prostitute in game and expect to either live a long life doing what you do -or- do it without having some asshole trying to make you into an upstanding citizen. I had one character who was a former prostitute that fully intended on getting work as a concubine or pleasure slave, instead she was made a noble's aid. (not as close as you might think, heh)
-With people insisting that their chosen mates be faithful (and this is the norm, not the exception) it makes it -incredibly- risky to have affairs. You piss off that 40 day warrior with a temper that you're kanking and you're more likely than not to end up scrab food.
-The ever popular "The world is harsh! Why would people be fucking/mating if the world is harsh and uninviting?" question keeps many from even having any closeness at all (and I am not just talking sexual, that can be remedied by prostitue NPC's).


Personally, unless I specifically make a PC geared to being sexually free, my PC's aren't going to be kanking anyone on a regular basis unless they trust them.  Why? The hardest thing to do on Zalanthas for me is not having a 30 day character, it's finding people you can trust implicitely. Lots of things are discussed when you're intimate with someone, lots of barriers are put down, -that- can get your ass killed quicker than pissing in a templar's drink not to mention it takes A LOT of trust to get strip your armor for someone in a world where assassins and spies are in the same room with you most of the time.

ShaLeah
-who is just -waiting- for that invitation to play a sadistic slaving Borsail noble so that she can walk around enslaving men for her pleasure.   :twisted:

[deviant storm]

I have to laugh at ShaLeah's response. Not that I'm criticizing her, just because she states things so baldly.

Yes, it's hard to make a prostitute on Arm. I tried with one pc not so long ago. In both Allanak and Tuluk. There were men -falling- all over themselves trying to find her an honest way to make a living. It was kind of sad. Others just wouldn't take her seriously because of her good looks, and that was before they learned her line of work.

In short, prostitute pcs don't fly.

And yes, the men all insist on a private relationship. No one wants to share, though the closest I came was with d elves.

I know that more open relationships are possible, and probable, in Zalanthas in theory. But no one seems willing to rp them.

[Bestatte]

Damned straight, ShaLeah! In -some- cases I am convinced that the person created their character description explicitely to get involved in mudsex. To those types I say, what-EVER. Just don't expect MY PCs to fall for it, because that ain't why I play and I'll do whatever I have to in ordered to avoid having to deal with your OOC lusts, including change how my PC feels about things.

On the other hand, there are those uptight holier-than-thou types who insist that mudsex is WRONG [tm] and that anyone who does it with ONE person is obviously a slut who just hasn't gotten caught yet doing it with everyone else. To them I say, what-EVER. If it doesn't float your boat, don't do it. I promise I won't be offended. Just keep your high horse stabled and go for the ooc "fades to black" and all will be fine.

In summary, the buxom-luxuriously-haired-petite-ravishing-eyed-slender-curvy-drop-dead-gorgeous-come-fuck-me-now types should accept whatever reputation they get as players for picking such a silly description.

The ones who fall desparately in love and are unabashedly physically attracted to the "remarkably ugly skinny pock-faced oozing pustule of a kank-shitted fly heap" should deserve what THEY get for not paying attention to their IC surroundings and looking for any excuse to wank off at their keyboards.

Everyone else, enjoy yourselves, play as you feel your character WOULD be, and stop spending so much time obessing over everyone else.

[I R K00L]

-Any good looking female PC is thought about as an F'me'PC automatically, both men and women, the women seem to suffer the blunt edge of this and immediately the PC's looking at her will grunt and roll their eyes, please correct me if I am wrong.

I completely know what you're talking about here.  :cry:  As, without going too ICly, my current character's desc could easily be considered as an F'me, and get's that attitude alot.

I do hafta admit though, that once some do speak with my PC, and learn a bit about her history, which is a well explained reason for her F'me-ness, they seem to lighten up on the Go to Drov attitude.

-

But on the issue at hand, of multiple mates and the such, I've noticed that people bring IRL issues and morality into the game way too much. I can understand that it's hard to break away from the norm of what we've been raised as, but when enacting a fantasy role, people should really be more open to it.

I've been playing Armag about a year now, and am invovled in my first actual long life, social character, and have yet to see any open relationships, or even be proposed with one. I've even had my PC turn potential love interests down, at the risk of becoming worthless fertilizer, because they were too pressing for one on one, with no allotment for extra love in the relationship. Though it is always fun to manipulate a reason out of the blue as to why you can't love this person.  :twisted:

The players in Armag do such a wonderful job of portraying the settings and such in all aspects, but I'd just love to see a little more leniency and open mindedness in this area. I guess perhaps that it's a touchy subject, and alot of people who get their characters involved feel like they'll either be made out as their character looking like a slut, when in all actuality, it'd be more along the lines of normal.

**Note... I'm not basing this on mudsexXxing. It's more of a talk about open mindedness that "should" exists in a PC's mind, that usually doesn't. Personally, I've never did it, and only would if the situation warranted it by being ruined if a Fade 2 Black were in case.(Can't get caught publically rolling in the filth if it's done in an Allanaki minute eh?  :roll: )

[Delirium]

I would like to see more open relationships as well. IRL, I'm an incredibly loyal person, so it was a difficult concept to wrap my mind around at first. I'll admit that. However, I believe it really helps to further the gap between fantasy and RL.. remember this is -Zalanthas- we're playing in, and not a fantasy version of Earth. If people want to look down on my character for thinking it possible to love more than one man, and seeing nothing wrong with having a warm body for a night, they can go right ahead. I'm going to play her as I believe she should/would be played.

[krelin]

I think the trust issue that ShaLeah mentions is one of the main reasons -why- someone might like to keep their relationship one-on-one.  Just as you say, Sha, intimate moments are dangerous and vulnerable, in more ways that one.

I wouldn't want to invest a whole lot of time in a woman (ICly), if I felt she might be easily seduced into sharing my deepest secrets with someone else, or if she was inclined to get herself (and me) into dangerous situations with other men (who might kill her OR me if they, too, were selfish bastards).

I think there is plenty of IC validity behind monogamy (even without STDs...  does Arm have STDs?  Might be fun to RP.)....  as for "saving" prostitutes, every guy wants to do that, duh.  Especially hot prostitutes.  And why wouldn't a prostitute want to be saved?  That's a gross, (again) dangerous job...  if you can get a kank-honey-daddy, go for it...

[deviant storm]

Krellin wrote:

I think there is plenty of IC validity behind monogamy (even without STDs... does Arm have STDs? Might be fun to RP.)

Heh. You can always rp that out. Though the coding could be fun too.

"You feel a burning in your groin, and suffer."

How would you get cured? They don't have penicillin on Arm.

[krelin]

The pointy-headed half-giant has arrived from the west, dragging a plush velvet couch, and scratching his groin irritably.

Dropping the couch to shove his hands down his pants, scratching aggressively, the pointy-headed half-giant exclaims, in sirihish:
   "Dumb crabsies!!"

Walking awkwardly, the pointy-headed half-giant hefts up the plush, velvet couch and lumbers off to another thread about stealing couches.

[John]

Here's an idea. RP out having numerous sexual partners with VNPCs. Sleep with 2 on a regular basis and talk about both of them on a regular basis. If more and more people do this, then it'll help people become use to it, and then we'll see more and more PCs having a few PC partners.

Is it just me or does Shaleah seem antsy today?

[Sephiroto]

Thats all nice and all.....but I'll never get a woman.

I like women, and they dont like me

[House Rising Sun]

As everyone knows, I'm the master of ladies.

Step 1: Dress like a tough guy. Tough guys wear tuxedos. Everywhere.
Step 2: Talk like a tough guy. Tough guys use words like "dividends" and "shizzle".
Step 3: Smoke, and work on a dough farm. Every tough coughs as he ploughs the dough.

You're welcome, Sephiroto.

The way I've always seen marriage on Zalanthas is as a rarity. The only spiritual reason I can see (ie joining under god) is if the sorcerer-kings encouraged their servants to pair up, or group up, to be more efficient. But that brings up money. If marriage is a legal thing, it's gonna cost 'sid, and that just isn't likely for lower-class citizens. They'd have less to spend on goods and real services like hair de-ratting and skin treatments, which isn't good for the city. As far as legal reasons go, most citizens have few if any rights in the first place. Right to property in the event of a death would be the only issue I can think of that a marriage would help resolve, but there are better ways to do that. That is at least how I see lower-class unions going. As for nobles and wealthier merchants... hey, they can do whatever the hell they want.

[Barzalene]

All marriages are economic. People in love just fuck.

[Lazloth]

It was funny the first time.