Burglarizing.

[FightClub]

I hope that those of you who conduct such trade are not stripping down apartments to the bare bones.  I'm pretty sure it speaks against it in the thieves bible.  And if you are that you're using more than one person to conduct the job, instead of going to and from the target room several times to clear off piles and piles of stuff, very twinkish IMHO, unless you're a half giant, which still might turn some eyes, a half giant using a lock pick.  Just a thought.
-Fight

Anyone have other opinions on this matter?

[Beux]

I totally agree. I actually got burgled myself, which, fairplay...it should be expected. Except what really suprised me was that there was not a single item left in the entire three roomed apartment, which had previously been packed full of all sorts, including numerous items of furniture and stuff.

Basically I figured it had been robbed by a large group of half-giants. However, I think it's a bit rude.

[spawnloser]

A typical burglar, even in real life, will take things based primarily on a value to weight ratio.  The higher this ratio, the more likely they are to take it.  Furniture?  Ridiculous.  It's hard to sell for a burglar.  Small, valuable things should be taken, and the rest left.

Basically, what it comes down to is this:  Don't be greedy on an OOC level, just because you CAN take everything doesn't mean your character should want to...unless there is a damn good reason.  Maybe your character is really that strapped for cash.  Maybe you want to ruin the person being stolen from.  If your character isn't starving, dehydrated and dirt poor, you should probably ransack the place and only take those things that have high value for the weight/size of the item.

[Sokotra]

I totally agree. I actually got burgled myself, which, fairplay...it should be expected. Except what really suprised me was that there was not a single item left in the entire three roomed apartment, which had previously been packed full of all sorts, including numerous items of furniture and stuff.

Basically I figured it had been robbed by a large group of half-giants. However, I think it's a bit rude.

Lawl... a large group of half-giants.  I guess a group like that could pretty much go where they wanted without anybody saying anything unless they wanted to be smashed and stuffed into a bookcase or flower vase or something.  

If my apartments had been completely picked clean and it was full of furniture and stuff, I would be wondering if there was some sort of bug that caused the room not to be saved or everything to have been deleted somehow or something.  The few times I've played a burglar, I've just poked through the stuff and taken the valuable items or hauled a bag or two of the most useful stuff I could carry.  

Sounds pretty strange that everything in your place is missing.  Like a bug or as mentioned - a very poor RP'er.  Actually, though, I would deem it possible for the burglar/thief to be living in the same complex and have hauled all your stuff down the hall to his own place.  This seems fairly realistic, I guess... at least much more realistic than someone dragging furniture in and out of the building itself and down the street and back again for more.

A cool idea would be for some sort of log-file for apartments that you could look at if you actually quit out of the game in your room and came back to find that you've been robbed.  If you were sleeping in the room 'virtually' while it was burglarized, then maybe it could be RP'd as if you found a place to hide or something and was able to review the log to see if you could get any clues as to what happened.  Unless the thief was really quiet and didn't "wake" you, then perhaps you wouldn't have the chance to see the person or hear what was going on.  But then again, even if you did see the log-file, the thief could easily be wearing something to conceal his/her identity and RP sneaking around the bed so as not to wake you up... but hauling furniture around and junk like that should be cause for allowing a "look" command to be sent and recorded in the log-file for the owner/sleeper to review later.  *shrug*

[FightClub]

Door was wide open when I logged on, was a pretty good indication of what happened.

[Ourla]

I used to know someone who kept a nice bowl of tempting poisoned yummies on the table in their apartment.  Sure-fire way to rid yourself of bothersome burglars.

Really though, I agree that it's ridiculous for a burglar to completely empty an apartment.  Even if he had a buddy to help out.  If I had let myself into someone's living space, I would be -way- too scared about them coming home and finding me there with my hands all up in their shit, to dally on dragging furniture out.  There's an exception to every rule of course, but generally it seems any sneaky worth his salt would want to go in, get the job done, and get out as fast as possible.  Which means, as has been said in the thread, nicking the nicest things you can find and then hot-footin' it out of there.  

Besides, there's always Next Time.  Let the apartment-renters have time to collect a bunch of new things for you to lift.  It's never IC to spend a whole IG day trucking back and forth between your place and someone else's, with load after load of their stuff.

[FightClub]

That and you know a person is most likely going to look elsewhere for an apartment, or leave it empty from then on, if things are continued, which looks back on the thieves bible, you loot a little they're not going to be so pissed, might keep on filling up their apartment, you loot a lot, you're going to cut down on the people who you have to loot from -- majorly.

[Ourla]

which looks back on the thieves bible...

Unless a house is described as abandoned, it is to be treated as if it were occupied. The residents might be sitting in the next room. If the house is empty, they might be returning at any moment.

Word, FightClub.

[Rindan]

I think the largest issue is that there are no realistic consequences to looting an apartment clean.  Looting another building in a tenement should be a risky ordeal.  There should be a chance that someone is home.  There should be a chance that someone will see you and call the militia if for no other reason then that they selfishly want to see once less thief in the world.  There should be many dangers in looting an apartment.  Sadly, there are almost no dangers.  The chances of a PC seeing you are very small, and the chances of  finding the owner at home are smaller still.  Walking out with bags of l00t is pretty safe as VNPC residents are unlikely to do anything.

Personally, I think that there should be more hard coded dangers to robbing an apartment.  If nothing else, I wouldn't mind being able to bar the door from the inside.  This would mean that when you log out, if you log out in your house it is thief proof.

What would this mean?  It would mean that if you want to hit a house, you better do some homework and work with a friend.  Under this sort of system, the wisest way to steal would be to find a mark and follow him to his house.  Once you know where he lives, you would then plan to steal from him the next time you see them away from home.  If you are working with a buddy, you can have one person follow the mark to make sure he doesn't return  home while the other does the thieving.

Sure, this would make stealing from apartments much harder, but I don't think that is a bad thing.  Right now the "challenge" of stealing is finding your lock pick set and some poor bastard who is willing to leave stuff in his house.  The challenge should not be finding a sliver of bone, it should be planning an executing a break in without getting caught.  Right now avoiding getting caught is trivial.

[FightClub]

Well you did lose a lot of versatile solutions for modern living.

[Cale_Knight]

If your apartment gets wiped out unrealistically, send up a player complaint. The imms won't get you your stuff back, but they'll probably check the logs, make a note of whoever is being abusive, and take action if it's a pattern of abuse or becomes one.

[jmordetsky]

Is furniture really that easy to haul out of a room? Maybe it's weight should be inceased?

[Bebop]

Now furniture large chests and shelves.  I can see not taking those.

But what is to stop someone from taking a big ole bag and stuffing every piece of jewelery, decoration, and clothing they can find in it?

[Akoto]

Now furniture large chests and shelves.  I can see not taking those.

But what is to stop someone from taking a big ole bag and stuffing every piece of jewelery, decoration, and clothing they can find in it?

I don't think there's anything to stop a burglar from doing that. You could reasonably stuff a bag full of little/light-weight baubles like those and get away.

When it comes to stripping an apartment of its furniture, however, I think that's crossing the line. Somebody would ICly notice you dragging chairs and tables out of an apartment, and whomever the burglar's selling to would probably wonder where they came across an entire home's worth of decor.

I'd think that someone who'd strip an apartment down to the walls would attract added attention from the law. That's a pretty damn bold thing to do, after all, and some apartments are definitely not occupied by the poor.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I used to know someone who kept a nice bowl of tempting poisoned yummies on the table in their apartment.  Sure-fire way to rid yourself of bothersome burglars.

Haha.. I'm guilty of this.. I do it all the time. ........Even IRL...

[Eternal]

I used to know someone who kept a nice bowl of tempting poisoned yummies on the table in their apartment.  Sure-fire way to rid yourself of bothersome burglars.

Hah, I used to do that back before there were tenement/apartment complexes.  The poisoned food was out in the open, the good stuff was always in the room-described cupboard.

It's sad to see that some burglars are posing as moving companies... pretty hard to lug that sofa around without someone noticing, unless you brought your UHaul kanks.   :wink:

[Dalmeth]

I played a burglar a couple times, and I can say that I lamented picking someone's door.  I didn't clean the place out, but every other scavenger after me did trying to get their coin

[rufus]

What? ...No.  I'm with...  Tekhaul.  We're repossessing our goods, sir and/or madam.

[Sokotra]

I played a burglar a couple times, and I can say that I lamented picking someone's door.  I didn't clean the place out, but every other scavenger after me did trying to get their coin

Ah yes.. forgot about that one.

For those of you that have been burglarized... your door may have been left open for a long period of time and many other burglars may have come along after the original and looted the place dry as they tried to grab the last one or two things of any value whatsoever.  They even could have notified others or sold info that the door was unlocked, allowing others to risk their hide in dragging your furniture out.  

So it very well may not have been a single burglar...  but just whoever found the door open in the aftermath might have dragged what they wanted out of the place.

[Flawed]

So it very well may not have been a single burglar...  but just whoever found the door open in the aftermath might have dragged what they wanted out of the place.

Unless all these burglars have an apartment in the building, I believe they can't really take advantage of the unlocked doors. Of course, it may very well be the neighbors who took advantage of the situation in some cases.

[LauraMars]

To be fair, I don't think stealing furniture is as unrealistic as one might think.  At least, not if you do it right.  Once on a dare a friend of mine and I waltzed out of a university dorm building, past the front desk, with an expensive coffee table.  Nobody stopped us when I told them the Hall Director had asked us to do it.  It's amazing to me what people will believe/not notice, if you're just willing to exploit that.

BUT STILL.  A table in corporate america college land is one thing, a couch, table, bed, and chairs in stingy and dying Zalanthas is another.  It's always seemed silly to me that you can clean out all the coded apartments in the whole city in an hour or so with no consequences, as a burglar, while a pickpocket can die for trying to steal a piece of bread.  I'm sure that less deaths happen with nosave arrest and changes to the crim code, but it's still far more of a risk than hoovering an apartment clean of someone's entire life.

I can't think of a solution.  Rindan's idea is pretty good, I hope someone up there is at least considering it.

[Akoto]

Maybe the landlords of the apartments could hire some guards to post in the hallways? One could sneak past them, of course, but at least it adds *some* element of risk beyond the apartment owner being home.

If their apartments have a reputation for constantly being robbed, especially by people stripping the rooms to the bones ... Well, that's not good for business.

[Dalmeth]

Unless all these burglars have an apartment in the building, I believe they can't really take advantage of the unlocked doors. Of course, it may very well be the neighbors who took advantage of the situation in some cases.

The hard part for a sneaky fella is not getting into an apartment building, it's getting the door to an apartment open.  I've had a few burglars in the past, and it didn't take me too long until I could sneak in to just about every apartment building in the city.  It was getting the expensive picks that was hard.  

So most operating burglars are going to be sweeping the apartment buildings, trying to find an unlocked door.  When one burglar unlocks it, more are sure to follow.

[daedroug]

Unless all these burglars have an apartment in the building, I believe they can't really take advantage of the unlocked doors. Of course, it may very well be the neighbors who took advantage of the situation in some cases.

The hard part for a sneaky fella is not getting into an apartment building, it's getting the door to an apartment open.  I've had a few burglars in the past, and it didn't take me too long until I could sneak in to just about every apartment building in the city.  It was getting the expensive picks that was hard.  

So most operating burglars are going to be sweeping the apartment buildings, trying to find an unlocked door.  When one burglar unlocks it, more are sure to follow.

That has actually changed quite recently, a few of the apartment buildings are now practically impossible to sneak into. In Allanak I would say about half of them where affected by it. I had a 20+ day sneaky guy that couldn't even sneak into them. Consider that protection enough I don't really think guards need to be put in the hallways, though if it was made easier to sneak in I would agree to it.

[Vesperas]

One would think that a -smart- burglar would atleast have the inclination to shut the door behind them, although I know that they can't really re-lock it.

The theory would be that it would be less of a tip-off to apartment owners.. perhaps they simply forgot to lock the door?  A quick scan of their valuables, nothing NOTED as missing, and on their jolly way they go.  Unless they're paranoid.  Anyway, point is, the person is less likely to look into moving if they return home and are convinced they weren't robbed blind, and that means they'll leave more stuff to steal in later weeks.


On a slight derail, it's always been a bit of a dream to play a burglar that, perhaps as part of an unusually inflated sense of humor, would rearrange people's furniture before leaving with a useless trinket.  (think, creative use of drop-descs)

[spawnloser]

V, arrange will help with that now that we have it.

[Maybe42or54]

I've had an npc wander into my apartment before. One of those annoying npcs that pick up things on the floor.

It was odd. I tried to kill it, but it was too powerful. Assholes. I left so it wouldn't kill me and I waited a couple rooms away. I got an imm to zap it, and lo and behold, it picked up everything.

[Angela Christine]

A polite and canny burglar always closes the door.  Why let some street scum profit from your skill, and make your job harder in the future?  Besides, closing and pretending to lock the door behind you when you leave makes it look like you belong.  The neighbours might not notice that you aren't a long-time tenant of that apartment if you act natural, but they will sure as krath notice if you walk away with the door wide open, because people just don't do that.

[Gunnerblaster]

I got burgled. Everything was taken. Furniture and all. Even the worthless broom! THEY STOLE THE BROOM!

...

Well, that was the straw that broke the camel's back...

[Beux]

It's annoying isn't it. Especially when you know all your stuff is probably in the apartment next door.

[Zharal]

I think you should be able to lock a door just as you unlock it by picking.

[jstorrie]

I don't support that, since (real life) locks don't work that way.

[cyberpatrol_735]

About people walking out and not getting caught..

I figure they just don't have the balls to say anything about the dude walking out with a couch.. for fear of dying.

[Cenghiz]

You know how strong guards at the apartments are? I had an experience by an accident. No no.. They're not afraid. They don't respond because they're not coded to respond.

[cyberpatrol_735]

You know how strong guards at the apartments are? I had an experience by an accident. No no.. They're not afraid. They don't respond because they're not coded to respond.

Oh no, I meant common populace, not the super uper de duper guards

[psionic fungus]

I'm not sure about the realism of effective locking mechanisms without the use of metal to begin with, and I just want to add my two cents in by saying that I agree doors should be relockable by burglars.

I cannot even describe the amount of joy it would give me to be able to work undetected with a burglar.  But anyway.

[Fathi]

You know how strong guards at the apartments are? I had an experience by an accident. No no.. They're not afraid. They don't respond because they're not coded to respond.

Oh no, I meant common populace, not the super uper de duper guards

Well in all fairness, think about your average apartment complex in a city like London or Toronto or New York... if they see folks legging off with a couch, they probably assume it's one of their own shady-ass tenants that can't afford a moving service.

[Zharal]

I don't support that, since (real life) locks don't work that way.

Actually in (real life) You can relock a door with the picks you used to pick the lock open.  It works both ways,

[cyberpatrol_735]

I don't support that, since (real life) locks don't work that way.

Actually in (real life) You can relock a door with the picks you used to pick the lock open.  It works both ways,

Yeah, go to youtube and search for lockpicking videos, it was all over the news, just another lame shit.. but to stop derailing.

Yeah.. that's about all I have to say on the subject, cheap moving services.. but you have to think too.. once that burgular leaves, the door is left open, for other burgulars(tm) to get in.

[Fathi]

I would like to extend a hearty thank-you and chuckle to a burglar I encountered who was thoughtful enough to fill the room with porno after he elfed off with the valuables.

Now that's well-played thievery.

(left out the sensitive info, but if this post is still too IC I'll delete it)

[Zharal]

I don't support that, since (real life) locks don't work that way.

Actually in (real life) You can relock a door with the picks you used to pick the lock open.  It works both ways,

just another lame shit..

Im curious what you mean by this statment?

[HoD]

I picture the locks in the game to be simple tumbler locks, a bone pin falls over a gear to provent the doorknob from turning, picking a lock involves lifting the pin, and turning the doorknob. Easy, locking it should be just as easy since your just putting the pin back.

Remember guys, no metal, no advanced locksmiths = simple locks.

[Tarx]

We've had this conversation before, apparently they are still complex. And seige weapons are even more complex it seems.

Siege weapons?  I've looked through some threads but can't find much, any help on finding this?  (derail)

[Gazarsgo]

The real crime here is if a well-played burglar does do a very innocuous burgle, and the item is worth enough, the victim will just assume the item got lost in a crash and email in for reimbursement when they notice it missing weeks later.  :lol: