The North... :(

I was thinking about it and it made me kinda sad recently. It was in regard to the recent change to the North, i.e. the rebuilding of Tuluk, the reappearance of the Templarate and Nobility, and alot of the basic changes to make the North like Tuluk. I got sad because I realized the old North was gone forever.

One of my characters fondest memories was riding into the north in a wagon and being amazed at the quiet, peaceful northern life. Lotsa trees, wide open spaces, plants. Freils had that real comfortable... homely feel. And I loved the sanctuary. It was like the ideal place to go vacation in, or just to kick back and relax.

No nobles, no templars, no bowing, no laws (well in comparison).

Now it just seems to be Allanak north, a big blob of confusing roads and taverns and templars and nobles and walls and guards. The placid, quiet, quaint rugged north feel is gone and it makes me sad.

I was wondering if Im the only one that thought of the north this way, as a great place to go, relax, etc, or if everyone always wanted it to be back like the big bad old Tuluk?

At least Ill have my memories. Feel free to share

[Marc]

Hahahaha!

Another northern scum admits that life under 'nakki rule was BETTER!

Go to krath, all you nay-sayers.  Allanak is synonymous with good life.

Viva la Tyranny!

No no... Allanak is just like Tuluk now to me mechanically. A blob of roads, taverns, nobles and templars. Just different weather I gues.

I meant that the north was better as a relatively sparse, quaint countryside... oh well... I guess Ill have to go start my own town somewhere.

[Master Z]

New Tuluk feels very different from how Allanak always felt to me. I think now its mostly socialogical differences, considering they're beginning to physically look more similar. The biggest difference seems to be that Tuluk has its patriots and those who saved them from the evils of the South and templars out to keep the peace, while in Allanak you live under fear, corruption, and oppression. Its not like its black and white, but this seems to be the trend I'm feeling. I'd love to hear if other people get that impression too.

[crymerci]

I don't think the two cities look much alike, myself.

Allanak is mainly claybrick and sandstone buildings, with hardpack dirt roads in many parts of town. There are many more room descriptions depicting dust and sand, and I think the look of the city overall is very...red.

Tuluk on the other hand has many buildings made of wood, gray stone, or limestone. Most of the roads are paved with stone, and the room descriptions often have touches of plantlife in them. Overall the color scheme is cooler, white and gray.

[Master Z]

I guess what I meant is that they look more similiar than before, although obviously you wouldn't mistake one for the other. The climate, building materials, location, and styles make them look like very different cities, but they are both cities now.

My look alike I dont mean they are built of the same materials and have identical city layouts I mean that in general they are the same.

repeating: a mass of buildings, lotsa confusing roads, taverns and all the other stuff that makes Allanak allanak.

I really dont care if its another giant city made of different stuff, that doesnt make it any less appealing, I just think they couldve done well with a smaller, more organized town. I dont understand where all these people came from to populate this city that matches the size of Allanak.

All of a sudden in a few years since the take over there is a thriving society of merchants and crafters (the poet's circle) flourishing noble houses, and all this other stuff that seems to have appeared from the woodwork. I understand that alot were in hiding... but I think its a little much.

Anyways its too late, butI wouldve muched like to see a smaller nicer type of town, maybe a smaller allanak... not a larger one.

I guess the last bastian of simple country life is everyone's favorite town on the hill...

[Delerak]

I really have to agree, man.  Northlands is just another Allanak, another reason to log on, an enemy to have if your in Allanak and vice versa for Tuluk.  It sucks, there is no difference if you look at it from a fun-factor point of view, there is no real thing to distinguish them apart, even if their is wooden houses in the north and mudbrick in the sand, who cares?  Where is the cultural difference, I never see any, everyone plays the same in the North as they do in the south, it always has to do with the players, and the players can't understand how to play Northlanders I guess.

[halfbreed]

Heh, when I last stopped playing, "Old Tuluk" was much like it is now, only bigger and more labarynthine in nature.  It was prior to it's original destruction.

:lol:

[John]

I've been hanging around the North for a bit now, and the playerbase isn't as sparse as I originally thought it was which I'm happy about I'll try to keep it as IC-less as possible, but from what I've seen, the north is MUCH different to the south. Oh sure it's a large city with hardly any side streets (which keeps getting me lost. It's going to take me several characters before I learn the new layout) but I stop to read the descriptions of the rooms and they're quite different (which I know isn't what you are all saying). The feel for me is EXTREMELY different.

In central areas Tuluk becomes just as busy as Allanak, but a couple of roads away from them and I won't see much in either NPCs or VNPCs. Sure I'll see the occassional group of merchants either hawking their wares or working on building something or patrolling the area, but for the most part it's pretty empty. Whereas with Allanak I feel like among every street (with the exception of the Magickers Quarter and a couple of other roads) I'm having to jostle my way through crowds (especially during dawn and dusk).

I just think they couldve done well with a smaller, more organized town.

I disagree and from an IC standpoint it makes sense to me. The docs say that Tulukian society felt the pressure of Allanaki culture for 40 years. Despite the Tulukian victory in overthrowing Allanak from Gol Krathu, Allanak shaped how Tulukians think. Tuluk wanted to prove it was better then Allanak so it made a bigger city, as success and wealth in Allanak is often measured by how big your house is due to the fact land is REALLY expensive.

the players can't understand how to play Northlanders I guess.

I disagree. I've spotted a marked difference in how Tuluki nobles treat commoners. I can't explain it, but I see Nobles treating commoners better, but I can't think of any specific examples It's just the atmosphere among Nobles I guess. When I'm in Traders I'm too scared to talk if theres a Noble in the room, but in Tuluk I feel like it might ALMOST be safe to go up and greet them.

flourishing noble houses, and all this other stuff that seems to have appeared from the woodwork. I understand that alot were in hiding... but I think its a little much.

I don't see it quite that way, but then again I had only been to the North with one character before Tuluk was rebuilt.

But from the documentation I got the feeling that the area within and around Gol Krathu was teeming with tent villages and small villages. Now that Tuluk has been rebuilt I assume most of these villages have dissapeared. I've also noticed among the NPCs and VNPCs that quite a few people in the north are in fact from tribes and are either trading or moving there. You'll also notice a lot of the buildings are indeed makeshift tents in certain areas, which makes sense because Tuluk is still being rebuilt.

You also have to remember that the Wineyard and Freils Rest have become assimilated into the structure of the city so they are no longer seperated (AFAIK), so A LOT of the people are probably coming from there (and I hope if the places haven't been given new descs the descs have been altered to show a less amount of VNPCs).

I personally LOVE the difference between the North and the South.

I was a fan of big outdoorsy Tuluk myself, from the Sun King's, leave, n, n, n, n, enter village. Ahhhh, the good days. Oh yeah, also the good days when you didn't need three maps, a halfling sorcerer and Thrain's preserved flesh to get the Vineyard.

On the other hand, I greatly enjoy the Tribal market and the fact that some of the roads in the commoner's quarter truly reminds me of like... a leafy old New York City, kids running around on the streets, playing ball. Don't ask. I'm silly.

[Delerak]

Why the celebration?  I guess Tulukians are just stupid.  They just won a battle and got back their land, you think Allanak will go away?  I don't know but putting that children are playing in the roads is shit, I wouldn't let my kids go outside if we had -just- won back our rights to be called Tulukians.  I'd be afraid of the Allanakis striking back, fear is something you so rarely see, even in the virtual part of the world.  If anything Tuluk should still be scrounging to get back on it's feet, where DID all this shit come from?  No matter how much documentation and fiction you write, there is just no real explanation of how it became a metropolis bigger then allanak in several years after the battle.  And just because nobles aren't treating commoners bad, means the player might just not be doing it because they want to have a "legit - co-op" play with everyone else.  I don't know the character, maybe it is just the personality, but nobles anywhere would be haughty IMHO.

Well in all fairness, a lot of building was going on before the liberation (For about 30 IC years there was groups of slaves building just about everywhere) And as for children playing on the street, the liberation was about 15 IC years ago. Some of those kids weren't even alive for the war. Jeeze, my current character was barely alive for the war.

[Bakha]

Just a little reminder that some people worked their asses off over about a 2 year period building New Tuluk. If you want to offer constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement that's great. But just bitching about ways the rebuild was done wrong really accomplishes nothing.

I'll not comment on the rebuilding, population, or structure of the city, as that wasn't really my bag. However, I do believe that, other than a few discrepancies that were necessary to make things map correctly, everything has been carefully explained and documented as to the reason it is the way it is.

As for cultural differences, which is something that I've worked quite hard on with the Northlands.

The people claiming there are no cultural differences between North and South haven't played in the North much, evidently. There are marked differences between the two, many of which the Northlands frequent players have pointed out.

[ShaLeah]

Why the celebration?  I guess Tulukians are just stupid.

I think I'll refer you to Sanvean's post on flaming, starting a discussion with a line like that is just asking for a defensive posture. This is coming from someone with the diplomatic ability of a fern (that would be me, not Delerak), that should tell you something.

They just won a battle and got back their land, you think Allanak will go away? I don't know but putting that children are playing in the roads is shit, I wouldn't let my kids go outside if we had -just- won back our rights to be called Tulukians. I'd be afraid of the Allanakis striking back, fear is something you so rarely see, even in the virtual part of the world. If anything Tuluk should still be scrounging to get back on it's feet, where DID all this shit come from?

Please don't tell me you're naive enough to believe that rich, powerful nobility, aided by very rich and powerful rebels, are not smart enough to amass an immense amount of coin, hide their family heirlooms and do everything possible so that when things -do- get better they will still be on top.  Look at the historical facts in real life, the rich still remain alright, even in times of great need and depression.  Those who do not, were not too smart in the first place.  Please, spare me the entire "This isn't real life it's Zalanthas" counter arguement.  I would most definately be fearful of a strike back but I'd be damned if I was going to show it. Returning back to normal is the biggest slap in the face Tuluk can give Allanak and hell, those kids are all probably slaves and expendible anyway.  

No matter how much documentation and fiction you write, there is just no real explanation of how it became a metropolis bigger then allanak in several years after the battle.

All that land was already part of Tuluk, this change did not happen overnight, there were crews of humanoid slaves working tirelessly in order to build that land back up. I've seen 100 story buildings go up in a matter of months, it's not only feasable but likely, given the circumstances of war and the need to protect the remaining populace.

I don't know the character, maybe it is just the personality, but nobles anywhere would be haughty IMHO.

When your life depends on someone else's charity or protection, it's amazing how quickly a chip can and will be removed from your shoulder.  The fact that a person treats someone else with respect, even if they are lower in social status than they, means absolutely nothing at all.  Nothing.  The fact of the matter is that blue bloods are blue bloods for a reason and while polite and perhaps even nice to a commoner's face, behind closed doors it's a whole different bowl of Byn stew.  Trust me when I tell you, Tuluk is absolutely, without a doubt -very- strict in their fraternization policy, -very- strict, unlike Allanak's freely known associations between nobles and their lessers.

I do not want this to degenerate into a flame but I can't help but wonder, Delerak {if the world pisses you off as much as your posts and open disagreements on pretty much... everything suggest... } why you would continue to play at all.  The immortal staff busts their ass sitting in front of a computer for years on end creating, molding and aiding -us- the players in our addiction/hobby. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to have your work constantly second guessed or insulted or just not liked.  


ShaLeah
-who just thinks there's no need to be a shmuck -all- the time and apologizes in advance if this is seen as a flame.

[Fedaykin]

Why the celebration?  I guess Tulukians are just stupid.  They just won a battle and got back their land, you think Allanak will go away?  I don't know but putting that children are playing in the roads is shit, I wouldn't let my kids go outside if we had -just- won back our rights to be called Tulukians.  I'd be afraid of the Allanakis striking back, fear is something you so rarely see, even in the virtual part of the world.

First, its Tuluki and Tulukis, not Tulukian(s).

Second, as Tony pointed out the war occured over 15 years ago now.  In addition, not only did the Tuluki Legions, Rebels, Tribals and Mutants kick the hell out of Allanak in the war, but (as stated on the history page) they even went on the offensive and slaughtered the Allanaki army at the Xytrix Za valley.  Add to this the fact that following the war Tuluk clearly expanded its military might, and the people have no immediate threat to worry about.

And just because nobles aren't treating commoners bad, means the player might just not be doing it because they want to have a "legit - co-op" play with everyone else.  I don't know the character, maybe it is just the personality, but nobles anywhere would be haughty IMHO.

If nobles owed much of their survival to commoners who hid them during the occupation, along with their return to power thanks in no small part to commoners who fought against the Allanakis in the war, as is the case in Tuluk, Tuluki nobles are definetly going to treat commoners better than would their Allanaki counterparts.  This doesn't mean that commoners and nobles don't know their respective places.

It sucks, there is no difference if you look at it from a fun-factor point of view, there is no real thing to distinguish them apart, even if their is wooden houses in the north and mudbrick in the sand, who cares? Where is the cultural difference, I never see any

Look a little harder.  In addition to the specific instances within Tuluki documentation, spend sometime in the tribal markets, or especially within the New Poet's Circle, and maybe then you'll see a cultural difference.  I also think Master Z touched on something which is one of the largest differences between the two cities, which is the patriotism of Tulukis vs. the fear and oppression of the Allanakis.  In my view, the distinctions between the two societies, both large and small, are quite evident.

Sure, both cities have similar governments: Sorceror King, Templars, Nobles, Army.  However, that just happens to be the predomanant form of government for Zalanthas, sort of like Monarchy/Fuedalism in the days of medieval Europe.  That doesn't mean that Britain and France, or other kingdoms, did not have their own distinctions despite similar governing.

[Delerak]

Haha the world Shaleah?  No not the real world.  I'm trying to show you that it could have been much better then what it is.  And someone worked 2 years on it? So what, all I see is a bunch of rooms with massive descriptions and a bunch of synonyms and antonyms.  Allanak at least has the feel of a harsh city, because it is in the South, I havn't played in a while but I remember how the players were in the south, they were harsh and didn't care if you died, throw you in the arena, woohoo.  I could have swore the north was exactly the opposite, but it just doesn't come off as charismatic as I thought it would, just a very big city with a bunch of PCs playing in allanak part 2 because they can go "hunt" and not worry about spiders or groups of fireants, etc.  Hell, half the people will play up north because of its super lushness, which was way too out of hand, the city has gardens and plants, yet there is no true natural water source for miles, (right I forgot about magickal water) All I'm saying is try to expand your thoughts to something beyond just this is good, this is better, I'm not pessimistic, just analyzing every aspect of what this thread is trying to debate.  You probably don't know that I disagree with a lot of what I write, but that doesn't matter, I'm trying to question everything and get it answered, unlike some people who just go with the flow of everyone else and accept it all, cool beans, gravvvvy right?  Bah!

[Krath]

"You probably don't know that I disagree with a lot of what I write, but that doesn't matter"

If you disagree with what you write...Why write it anyway? Just to create conflict?

[Delerak]

No to create debate and arguements, I never smelled, heard nor saw a topic so sensitive it couldn't even be talked about.

[Sanvean]

So what, all I see is a bunch of rooms with massive descriptions and a bunch of synonyms and antonyms.

Work on the north included:
planning things out beforehand, including how to incorporate existing things, like Freil's and the Vineyard, into the projected structure, in a way that would make sense
coming up with an approach that avoided the "Wham, here's a whole new city that appeared over the weekend" phenomenon
countless hours of discussion and debate
reams of documentation about social structures, customs, flora, fauna, styles of dress, guilds, including helpfiles and webpages for both the staff and player sites
creating, dressing, and placing hundreds of npcs
creating over 50 new and distinct shops
building, which involves more than just creating rooms
figuring out how to let existing plotlines shape the city as well as providing space for new ones to do the same
working on changing the city over time on a weekly basis to reflect ongoing work
the creation of a new character and about 20 new clans, including documentation, guidelines, recruiting, and building for those clans
coordinating staffing for the north

Speaking as one of the people who contributed what is only a small part of the north, Poets' Circle, I find your remarks incredibly insulting. A massive amount went into that effort, perhaps more coordinated and thought-out effort than any other part of the game.

[krelin]

Yeah, I play in the north a lot, and find that one of my favorite things about it is that it seems to be continually in flux....  I hope it continues to be so, even when it is "finished"....  I -loved- it when the shops started moving up from the vineyard.  Hmm, I should go attack the vineyard some, maybe they'll all move.  

Im sorry my post got convuluded.
I know the old north is gone, and I appreciate and love the new work done, I was just using this post as a way for people to reminisce about all the fun they had in the old. Im not saying "change this back!" im just saying, "wow the old north was cool... shame to see it go."

Anyways, I hope the topic dies out before its deleted as a flame thread.
Sorry again for the trouble.

[Fedaykin]

Hell, half the people will play up north because of its super lushness, which was way too out of hand, the city has gardens and plants, yet there is no true natural water source for miles, (right I forgot about magickal water)

Oh yeah?  Half of the people play up North for that reason?  Was that part of some unofficial poll you took?

Without getting too off track, Delerak, you are very quick to criticize others and their work while continually stating your opinions as fact with little back up or knowledge behind them.  For instance you state there are no sources of water within miles of the city.  Are you really that certain? (Hint: You shouldn't be.)

Allanak at least has the feel of a harsh city, because it is in the South,

Hell, half the people will play up north because of its super lushness, which was way too out of hand, the city has gardens and plants

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here.  Allanak has the feel of a harsh city, and Tuluk feels diferent, but you still refer to it as Allanak 2?  No one said the two cities were supposed to be exact opposites, just different.  I was once quick to criticize it as a possible Allanak 2 myself, immediately following the war, but I admitedly will now tell you I was way too quick to judge.

It took sometime, and it still should take some more time after forty years of Allanaki rule, but Tuluk has and still is defenitely developing its own feel.  As Tulukis once again control their city, the distinction will probably become even more overtly apparent in the years to come.  For someone who criticizes the growth of Tuluk as a city as too quick and sudden, surely you can appreciate that some changes might take longer than an IC decade and a half?

[Dwarven Gigolo]

No to create debate and arguements, I never smelled, heard nor saw a topic so sensitive it couldn't even be talked about.

I'll keep this brief, both because I don't see much reason to feed your debate-for-the-sake-of-debating approach to this thread, as well as the fact that you have singlehandedly managed to insult a large part of the staff. The fact that Sanvean and Bakha took the time to inform you of the work behind the Tuluk project speaks tons of them both. There might not be a topic so sensitive that it cannot be discussed (IC-info aside), but how you discuss it and whether you listen to what's being said does play a part.

And just because nobles aren't treating commoners bad, means the player might just not be doing it because they want to have a "legit - co-op" play with everyone else. I don't know the character, maybe it is just the personality, but nobles anywhere would be haughty IMHO.

Since your gripe seems to be about the possible OOC motives of His Chosen having more repertoire with commoners than Southern Nobility, rest assured it is simply following the form dictated to Tuluki culture. Whether they enjoy it or not is besides the point, but if they're doing it, they're IC. A quick read over the Tuluki Nobility doc might help you understand this better.

but it [Tuluk] just doesn't come off as charismatic as I thought it would

What did you expect it to do a song and dance for you? How you relate to the city is your problem. Some prefer Allanak, some prefer Tuluk.. Heck, some prefer the Tablelands, Red Storm, Luir's Outpost, Elven Outpost, etc.. There's plenty for you to choose from, so instead of bitching and insulting those who wrote an area, try to give thanks for the fact that you have the option to love Allanak and hate Tuluk, or vice-versa.

the city has gardens and plants, yet there is no true natural water source for miles (right I forgot about magickal water)

Was it your understanding that the fountain in Allanak is filled by the Templerate that guards it relieving themselves in shifts? Because if it wasn't, you might have realized that there is a full-fledged sewer along with a water source. Likely one of the reasons such a large city was able to thrive in that location? Just a thought. Keeping with the understanding that there is a water source in the South, I'm sure it's not a stretch for even your imagination, that there be a bigger one in the North? As for "magick water" a quick glance at Tuluk's history would show you that "magick water" would likely get spilled on the ground before it was ingested by a northern.

All I have to say.

-Dwarven Gigolo

[Carnage]

Look around at the NPCs in the North, then compare it to the south. In the south, there's a templar/soldier every few rooms. It represents Tektolnes's grip on the city by the balls. In the North, it really is more relaxed.

[Marc]

In the south, there's a templar/soldier every few rooms. It represents Tektolnes's grip on the city by the balls.

Is that really a bad thing?

Depends on the grip.

[Delerak]

I seem to have managed to piss off some very renowned people.  This wasn't my intent, but I have gotten the replies I seeked, thanks.

[gfair]

Tuluk is an awesome town.  It has the whole "Horn of Plenty" notion to it right now.  It's like the golden age of Tuluk, really.

As for populations up there, Tuluk can always grow, but I'd like to see the smaller cities grow, including the very smallest - RSE, RS, Luirs, and perhaps a couple of the farm/Hamlets around Nak to have a core group of five to six users.  It really would be nice to see the small cities have a good group of players in them to add the dynamism they need to be enjoyable.

But as for Tuluk - don't change a thing, I love that town.  Only question now is - should it still be called Freil's Rest?

[crymerci]

repeating: a mass of buildings, lotsa confusing roads, taverns and all the other stuff that makes Allanak allanak.

I think that's just...a city.

I really dont care if its another giant city made of different stuff, that doesnt make it any less appealing, I just think they couldve done well with a smaller, more organized town.

Actually I like it the way it is now. I see it as more of a sprawling suburbia, more space between buildings and more open spaces. Furthermore, other than the Merchant's Quarter, the city is meticulously organized and laid out in a fairly rigid city plan. The only really annoying thing, for me, is the inability to walk/ride straight through the city to the vineyard-It's much more convenient to make the trek outside the walls. Well, and the fact that it takes sooo long to get -anywhere-.

I dont understand where all these people came from to populate this city that matches the size of Allanak.

All of a sudden in a few years since the take over there is a thriving society of merchants and crafters (the poet's circle) flourishing noble houses, and all this other stuff that seems to have appeared from the woodwork. I understand that alot were in hiding... but I think its a little much.

These people were all around already, it's just that the city was more a collection of villages and tent cities, spread across the land. Also, some likely were in Luir's, and perhaps came back. Also, I could be mistaken, but I believe it's been more than a 'few years'.

Anyways its too late, butI wouldve muched like to see a smaller nicer type of town, maybe a smaller allanak... not a larger one.

I guess the last bastian of simple country life is everyone's favorite town on the hill...

I think it is smaller, if you look at it the right way. Like I said above, I see it as a sprawling suburbia with lots of open space.

should it still be called Freil's Rest?

People are calling the city Freil's Rest? I always (And people I played with in the old Northlands) called the village (now the area with the Kadian shops and Firestorm Pub, referred to also as the Kadian Village) Freil's Rest, and the rest of the area Gol Krathu.

[crymerci]

Where is the cultural difference, I never see any, everyone plays the same in the North as they do in the south, it always has to do with the players, and the players can't understand how to play Northlanders I guess.

Wow. I would personally say that there's a huge difference, one that I've noticed nearly from the beginning of the PC population boom in Tuluk. Tuluk is definitely, at least outwardly, a much kinder and gentler place than Allanak, and certainly more cultured, especially in the common populace.

[gfair]

People are calling the city Freil's Rest?

No, people are still calling what used to be Freil's Rest by the same name.  But with it really just an area of Tuluk now, no more or less distinct than the Commons or Tribal or the Ruins, is the name still Freil's Rest?  Why not Freil's Plaza, or some other type of new name.

I guess its like referring to it as a neighborhood...

just like i might live in Dullsville, but if Im giving directions I might say:
Boring Hill in Dullsville.

Like Freils Rest in Tuluk... not sure, sounds okay.

[Lazloth]

From what I understand, the village is still Freil's.

What you know[/url]"]
While your sense of Tuluk's history is skimpy, you do know something about how its smaller villages were created. After the destruction of Tuluk in the Nineteenth Age, the estate of one of the Kadian merchants, Medichi, served as the focal point for Kadian trading activity. Many of the craftsfolk from Tuluk itself settled in this small village, which became known as Freil's Rest. This village has become the mercantile district of the newly constructed city-state and now houses the estates of all the major merchant Houses.

[jhunter]

Overall I like New Tuluk, and I'd like to say "Good job!" to all those who worked so hard and continue still to work hard to improve upon the game.

The biggest difference I see between Tuluk and Allanak is that the people who reside in New Tuluk work together alot more to better themselves and the city...unlike the harsh nobles and templars, backstabbing coniving people of Allanak.

Who knows, maybe one day Tuluk's army and more combative groups might just take a trip down south to return the favors the southerners visited some time ago...'cept the people of Tuluk working together with less infighting than the southerners would do alot better job!

Heehee, just having a little fun folks
-jhunter

[Lazloth]

In the south, there's a templar/soldier every few rooms. It represents Tektolnes's grip on the city by the balls.

Is that really a bad thing?
Depends on the grip.

Be afraid, Southrons.   Muk Utep's minions of doom approach to sever that link.