No Subguild?

[Rhyden]

What do people think of having the option to pick no subguild? I've had moments where my character's subguild was completely uneccessary and wished I had the option of having no subguild at all.

Room for abuse? None.

Easy to code? Probably.

Hmmm???

[jhunter]

I've had pcs where I thought that before. I felt like I was picking a subguild simply because I had to. Good idea.

[jstorrie]

Doesn't each guild have a subguild that gives it no additional skills? You could just choose that.

[jhunter]

Doesn't each guild have a subguild that gives it no additional skills? You could just choose that.

Actually, I think you might be right. I'd have to list all each of the subguild skills and compare to the main guilds thought, I'm not certain it is wholly true.

[Marauder Moe]

You could pick a subguild that's redundant to your main guild.

Or you could use the request tool to ask for skills to be removed.

Also, a no subguild option could potentially confuse newbies.  They might take it expecting to get a bonus in something else.

[Rhyden]

You could pick a subguild that's redundant to your main guild.

Hmm, maybe, but I don't think it's possible for all guilds.

Also, a no subguild option could potentially confuse newbies.

What doesn't confuse newbies?  :twisted:

[jstorrie]

It is possible, I believe, for all guilds but magickers and merchants to pick redundant subguilds, and to get no more than one extraneous skill with merchants. I won't list out which subguild matches with what, though, of course.

[spawnloser]

It isn't possible for all guilds, no.  For some guilds, though?  Damn.

Pickpocket/thief?  Heehee.
Ranger/hunter?  Yep.
Warrior/merc doesn't quite fit the 'redundant' category, but is still a good one.
Merchant/crafter, to some extent.

Just be possibly better at what you do.

[Hymwen]

It isn't possible for all guilds, no.  For some guilds, though?  Damn.

Pickpocket/thief?  Heehee.
Ranger/hunter?  Yep.
Warrior/merc doesn't quite fit the 'redundant' category, but is still a good one.
Merchant/crafter, to some extent.

Just be possibly better at what you do.

Those subguilds all have skills that the guild doesn't start with.

I think the only guild/subguild combination that doesn't gain anything from the subguild is warrior/guard.

[Halaster]

Yeah, just pick a subguild that gives skills your main guild already gets.  Like ranger/hunter, warrior/guard, merchant/general crafter

[spawnloser]

Nah, Hymwen...ranger/hunter, and pickpocket/thief are both completely redundant too.

[jstorrie]

Thief works for all the sneaky guilds, I think.

[Hymwen]

Nah, Hymwen...ranger/hunter, and pickpocket/thief are both completely redundant too.

No, both of those subguilds start with a skill that the "matching" guilds don't.

[spawnloser]

Okay.  I stand by my statement.

[Cyrian20]

Okay.  I stand by my statement.

I concur, you might just get a skill earlier.

[Cale_Knight]

I concur, you might just get a skill earlier.

Which is exactly what Hymwen said.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

What do people think of having the option to pick no subguild? I've had moments where my character's subguild was completely uneccessary and wished I had the option of having no subguild at all.

Was this thread meant to be serious, or was it meant as an experiment to see how many people would invest the time to respond seriously? I suspect it's just an experiment that's turned out rather amusing to the original poster, because so many people have invested the time to find clever and carefully planned ways to pick subguilds that don't give you any extra coded skills.

Furthermore, I can't believe how technical this thread is getting with skill mix and matching for the purpose of doing everything codedly possible to avoid getting certain skills. It seems like some kind of min/max thread on how to make the ultimate "whatever" character via code, except in this case it's to make a character with as few skills as possible. I mean COME ON, people. Just pick a subguild out of random if you really can't be bothered to develop a subguild into your concept, and IGNORE THE SKILLS if you have to. How have so many people suggested ways to ever-so-carefully avoid getting skills when you can JUST -IGNORE- THE SKILLS IN YOUR LIST? If only people were nearly this helpful in cases of people asking for ways to add/improve coded skills with their character.

[spawnloser]

Because your character DOES have those skills...at very low levels if never developed in game, but they are posessed.  Ignoring it, I would consider not the best RP.  Never using them?  That's different than ignoring the fact that your character has them.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

Because your character DOES have those skills...at very low levels if never developed in game, but they are posessed.  Ignoring it, I would consider not the best RP.  Never using them?  That's different than ignoring the fact that your character has them.

omg

spawnloser

This is a pretend game. We play "make believe" that we're in a fantasy world and we act out our roles. We pretend we have VNPC families and almond-shaped eyes, and that we know how to play the lute, or that we're really bad card players or really good izdari players. Certainly you aren't proposing that we can't ignore a skill for the sake of RP? I feel you may want to re-evaluate your core definition of what "RP" is, with that kind of mentality. Roleplay is about imagination and creativity, and to suggest that you shouldn't ideally ignore a coded skill for your char is just.. well, you are robbing yourself of the RP experience by limiting yourself in that way.

[WarriorPoet]

If I put my head to it, I could probably weave a basket, sew a shirt, skin a cow, stab a foe in the neck, or make a sword from the scrap-iron in my shop. I could do it, but I don't. I definately possess those skills at very low levels, but pretty much ignore them.

As it's much the same in-game, I say get over it man. Pick a redundant subguild or just... don't use or even bother aknowledging those other skills. Not poor play at all, just the way things work.

-WP is a twink for utterly ignoring his RLmud skillz.

[spawnloser]

We play a mud where some things are coded and not as flexible, FO.  I understand RP, but this is also a MUD where code dictates many things...and the code says you can do what is on your skills list.  You the player saying that your character really can't do something that is on that list is being relatively close-minded.  You're reacting as if I'm speaking in black and white, by the way, which I'm not.  Flat out ignoring?  That's stupid, in my opinion.

There are a few ways you could do things...

Example 1: Your character is a warrior that has been warrioring his/her whole life can't do anything a warrior can't...so pick a subguild that represents this and actually represent that your character has done nothing else but warrior his/her whole life.

Example 2: Your character is a ranger with a subguild giving a crafting skill.  Rather than ignoring this skill and pretending it doesn't exist, later in the character's life it could be a, "Oh, shit, yeah...maybe I could try arranging some flowers.  I've seen flowers before."

Example 3: Do what you SHOULD do if your character really doesn't know how to use 'skill x,' through your vaunted powers of imagination and creativity, and send a fucking request to the staff to remove the damned skill.

This is a MUD.  The code trumps all unless the staff says so.  RP is the most important thing for us to think about, but that doesn't mean code doesn't dictate how things work...because that's what code does.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

This is a MUD.  The code trumps all unless the staff says so.  RP is the most important thing for us to think about, but that doesn't mean code doesn't dictate how things work...because that's what code does.

Dude, the code is tool, not a straightjacket! And I can guarantee right now without even having consulted the staff on their opinion, that they will GLADLY let you ignore skills, and most of them (if not all of them) haven't even _considered_ the notion of it being poor RP to ignore coded skills. You could make a 70 year old ex-basket weaving beggar who's missing an arm and a leg, and give them the warrior guild and NO ONE CARES. If your beggar rolls absolutely incredible strength, does that mean you have to roleplay him as one of the strongest beggars alive? Of course not. Pleeeeeeeeease do not spread the misconception that roleplay is about looking at your score and skills list upon char creation, and shaping your character's life to the ASCII TEXT LIST of stat/skill values. I want to like, cover your posts with a towel so that they don't influence people's outlook on the concept of roleplay. I need help! Don't let the fires spread!

[bloodfromstone]

But... we can and do override the code with our character all the time. If someone emotes headbutting me and then throws out a coded kick, they head butted me, even if the code says otherwise. If my character has a low alcohol tolerance, maybe he'll be drunk before the code says he is. The code never says we trip over our own two feet, accidently drop a mug, etc, etc, etc, but all characters do. Or I'd like to think they do similar things.
A lot of half-giants talk as if they have a pretty tenuous grasp on Sirihish. Codedly, they're mastered at Sirihish, but the player decides to overstep the code.

If I were in a situation like that, I would pick a subguild, and my character would have some natural talent at, say, sewing. Maybe he's never sewn before in his life, but he's not bad at it naturally. And he'll probably screw his first few attempts at sewing. Even if he does manage to make something on the first try, a player can always emote screwing it up and junk the product. That's the power we have as players.

[Twisted Minstrel]

Back to the main point of this topic... if you don't want to have any additional skills from a subguild, just pick bard... no additional skills there.

[spawnloser]

FO:
The FACT is that your character knows how to do something if it shows on his/her skills list.  Period.  If you don't want your character to know how to do it, ask the staff to remove the skill.

It is that or your character does have some idea and talent with doing what that skill does.  Yes, code is a tool...and can be trumped by roleplay, but if you do it in ways the staff disagrees with, be prepared for a spanking, which is what I meant by roleplay only trumps when the staff says so.

You can't emote shouldering someone into the ground and then throw a kick, can you?  You can't roleplay knowing how to do something that is represented by a skill when you don't posess that skill.  How is this different, really, than roleplaying that your character knows nothing about sewing when 'clothworking' shows on your skills list?

I maintain my stance, if you have a skill, you have the skill...if you don't want the skill, have it removed by the staff.  I'm sure they'll do so if you ask.

Back to the main point of this topic... if you don't want to have any additional skills from a subguild, just pick bard... no additional skills there.

You've never picked that subguild, have you?

[Sholdyn]

You all give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

I would just pick Linguist. That can never be a bad thing.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

I maintain my stance, if you have a skill, you have the skill...if you don't want the skill, have it removed by the staff.  I'm sure they'll do so if you ask.

What a waste of staff resources, to cater to your inability to ignore a listed skill.

Ridiculous.

[Rhyden]

What do people think of having the option to pick no subguild? I've had moments where my character's subguild was completely uneccessary and wished I had the option of having no subguild at all.

Was this thread meant to be serious, or was it meant as an experiment to see how many people would invest the time to respond seriously? I suspect it's just an experiment that's turned out rather amusing to the original poster, because so many people have invested the time to find clever and carefully planned ways to pick subguilds that don't give you any extra coded skills.

It's always amusing for me to see how carefully planned posts are on the GDB. This was not an experiment though, I just tossed the idea out to the players, much like an owner tosses a piece of raw meat out to a pack of wild dogs.

[spawnloser]

Say so if you want, FO, but that's the only way your character won't really know anything about said skill.  Also, the staff has said they are more than happy to remove skills and lower stats at any time.  I don't think this is a waste.

[Lizzie]

I have a bunch of skills on my list that I'm ignoring. And they're part of my main guild, not my subguild. They don't have much to do with my character so I, the player and puppeteer, have chosen to intentionally ignore them. I'm not using them, the code of things my character does, doesn't use them, and I see no reason to bother the staff to have them removed when it's much easier and efficient to just pretend they aren't there.

If some day my character desires to use them, maybe they will. But I don't think I'm obligated to do so if I want to be considered a "good" roleplayer. A good roleplayer focuses on the role they have created for their character, and not the coded list of skills. And that goes for -not- using skills they feel their character has no need for or interest in, in addition to using the ones they feel are an integral part of their character's life.

L. Stanson

[spawnloser]

There's a difference between saying your character doesn't have a skill and not using said skill, Lizzie.

[Angela Christine]

I think it's ok to assume that skills on your skill list are things your character has a knack for, not necessarily things your character has spent time doing in the past.  

For most skills your first attempts with low skill level won't be much better than a character that doesn't have the skill on their list at all.  What you have is the potential to develop that skill, not expertise in the skill.  There are some exceptions, like craft skills that you can not even attempt without the skill.  But even with a crafting skill on your list you aren't really good at that skill until you've worked it a little in play.



On the other hand, it is easy to justify almost any skill without denying that your character knows a little about it.  Little kids get into stuff, and go all sorts of places that they maybe shouldn't be, and often they won't get run off as long as they aren't disruptive.  So even if you never used a skill, you might have seen enough to pick up the very basics, enough to know where to start.

[ianmartin]

Why not just take linguist?

[Hymwen]

I'd say that linguist is one of the worst subguilds you can take if you want to play with "no subguild". Why?

1) it gives you a pretty big advantage in the form of two fluent langauges, and not only that, but it's a passive advantage, not one that you can choose not to use.

2) it's one of the subguilds that require some degree of roleplay. You have to at least have a reason for speaking these languages fluently, and picking this subguild pretty much demands that you, at the very least, include it in your background.

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/subguilds/linguist.html

[Xygax]

Why is this necessary, exactly?  Can't you resolve simply to not use skills that don't pertain to your concept?

[Rhyden]

Why is this necessary, exactly?  Can't you resolve simply to not use skills that don't pertain to your concept?

It's not. I had an understanding that a subguild was partly the profession/talents of your character. Now, I see they're just skills. My questions have been answered. Thanks all.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I think people reacted to this a little strongly. Personally, I don't see how it'd hurt anybody to have the option available to them.
*shrug*

[Rhyden]

I think people reacted to this a little strongly.

I could write a thread called 'Why Zalanthas is a Desert Planet' and people would still react strongly, disagree with each other and find a way to flame.  :wink:

[MorganChaos]

You all give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

I would just pick Linguist. That can never be a bad thing.

I'd disagree with this. I pick linguist frequently and there's a set of rp that should go along with it, like with any guild or a lot of the other subguilds. I wouldn't like it at all if someone picked linguist just because they couldn't pick anything else, and didn't roleplay it at all.