Subdue - Immobilization or Prep for Death.

[Hot_Dancer]

I agree with Dan. Make subdue useless unless used on sleeping/knocked out/nosave opponents. You want to mug someone? Do it the old fashion way and beat them with a club first. Everyone knows bludgeoning weapons are intensely effective at this, perfect with mercy on.

Hot_Dancer

[LoD]

I disagree that subdue should be made effective only when a target is sleeping, knocked out or no_saved.  There are many situations in which the skill comes in very handy when used in a non-combative way.

I would see subdue be kept as it stands, but without the damage bonus for the person holding the victim and with a better system of checks and rolls on the initial grab.  

Things we could no longer do if subdue was made only on prone people:

1. No longer subdue criminals.
2. No longer stop someone from spam fleeing.
3. No longer subdue an LD companion to drag them back to safety.
4. No longer practice the skill, it'd be 100% accurate under that system.
5. No longer stop that magicker from magicking without HAVING to kill them.

There are a lot of uses of the subdue skill without changing how it can be used.  If they changed the chance of grabbing someone as well as changed the damage bonus the subduer received, that'd make them have to work in pairs - which they usually don't.

Kalan for thought.

-LoD

[Rindan]

I don't think subdue should be made useless, just useless for some things.  I think that if someone has a weapon out, your chances of subduing them should be about the same as your chances to hit them with a weapon.  If you can't hit them with a nice and long weapon, then sure as hell are not going to grab them with two hands and hold them down.  I don't care how you slice it, if you can't hit them with a weapon, you simply can not grab them.  Subdue should have a similar fail rate as a weapon.

This will still make subdue completely useful.  So, just like the way weapons work, if you attack someone who is unarmed, your chances to hit (or subdue in this case) are relatively good, even if they are superior to you.  Lord Templar Inbreed could still order his half giant to grab the elf sitting at the bar without any issue.  Pick pockets who fail could still be dragged to jail.  The difference is that if the person is ready for you and has a weapon out, you will need to either be very good, or beat them down the old fashion way.  This is not a bad thing in my mind.  Can you pull out a dagger and increase your chances of escaping from militia?  Sure.  Of course, you are now guilty of trying to kill a militia man instead of just flee from one.  If you draw a weapon when a Templar comes for you, you better hope to hell he doesn't catch you.  Raiders who do e;subdue are now rendered ineffective, as most wise people in the wastes keep a weapon at ready.

Subdue would still be a deadly killer, it just means that you might need to think a little harder before using it.  You can still grab someone who is far superior to you and beat them down, you just need to catch them when they are off their guard.

Simply stated, if you can't hit a guy with a weapon,  you sure as hell are not going to grab them with two hands and hold them down.  Make the chance to subdue similar to the chance to hit someone would leave subdue as being effective for the things it should be effective for, while at the same time removing its more twinkish uses.

[Lazloth]

Simply stated, if you can't hit a guy with a weapon,  you sure as hell are not going to grab them with two hands and hold them down.  Make the chance to subdue similar to the chance to hit someone would leave subdue as being effective for the things it should be effective for, while at the same time removing its more twinkish uses.

I don't really agree with this sentiment, but I do think that the subdue function needs addressing.

[Gorobei]

Hmm, Rindan, I think this is one of the first times I've disagreed with you.
I think it's definitly possible to grab someone who has a weapon, especially if they're using a club, and especially with the Zalanthan style of relatively dull swords.  Maybe you grab their weapon, or their wrist and pull them towards you.  And that's why it's a skill, so you can get really good at it (so don't say "Oh, have you ever tried to subdue someone with a weapon?").

[Delerak]

But Gorobei, the thing is, it's not like martial arts exists.  I mean you get by with what you can do.  And subdue is more of a brutish technique I'd say.  So if someone has a weapon, and knows how to use it, they won't let you get close to them.  I mean it's common fucking sense, look at real life, give someone a club, you try and grab them.  Simple as that.  Even real martial artists are full of shit when they do that defense crap, you never know what the person holding the weapon can do, and in arm if your a 50 day warrior I'd say that dude knows how to handle himself.

[X-D]

I also think that attempting to subdue someone who has weapons out should either be hard or have repercussions, subdue I think should basicly stay the same as now for two unarmed people, but if the target is armed then the subduer is basicly doing a bonzai style attack (assuming he is not hidden) and the target should get the chance to do damage, maybe even break/stop the subdue if the damage is high enough, after all, 40 points of damage is basicly severe crippling or near crippling injury, You, in real life  would likly have a hard time continuing to grapple with someone after they crushed all the bones in your shoulder with a baseball bat:) Why should it be different here?

Also, I notice that other things are rarely taken into account, RP wise with subdue, I once saw a templar who walked into the gaj and emoted standing near the door,(north end of the room)  have a person who walked in from the back room(south end of the room) and emoted sidling towards the sleeping area (east side) subdued, Now, this is at least poor roleplay since the giant managed to basicly teleport to the other end of the room in an instant without knocking a single person or table over.
Hhhmm, where am I going with this, Oh, just another idea for subdue, Maybe split the delay in half, half coming when command is entered, and the other half after the subdue attempt actually goes off.


But What I would really like to see is subdue changed completly, even change the name, My suggestion is Grapple or grappling, In this there would be a little mini 'combat' Which would take into account, size, strength, agility and the grappling skill, along with if the target was armed or not, this combat, which would have a time limit of sorts and would have it's own commands, Say from the aggresser side he could type grapple elf disarm, this would set up the first round for him he would attempt to snatch the elf's weapon away in the first round of grappling, now, this would basicly still be the same suprise attack that subdue currently is, But, even if he did succeed, the elf would then have several choices, he could flee, now, because the aggresser moved first to get rid of the weapon this should have a very good chance of success for the first round, or maybe he could attempt reverse and that of course is to subdue his attacker, maybe if he was a warrior he could bash, many things, Now, the second 'round' would be the deciding round, and each side would again have an array of possible commands, but this time they would basicly be the same command choices, there is a huge amount of possiblilities, Oh, and if the aggresser wanted, he could ignore the weapon for the initial attack, and say maybe type grapple elf bonzai(joke, maybe grapple elf subdue) or trip or something. at the end of the second round, if the victem had not managed to escape, knock the aggresser to the ground or do crippling injury or subdue the aggresser then the aggresser succeeds in subduing his victem.

Hhhmm, The more I think about it the more I like it, This type of system would also give other pc's time to react and maybe attempt to help or hinder one of the grapplers, maybe even jump into the fray as a grappler, If nothing else, everybody would have time to get one or two neat emotes in.

Oh, and one last thing, same as subdue now, If you are the aggresser you should not be able to wield weapons while engaging, nor should either party be able to draw weapons during the grappling rounds.

Ok, well, that is my 22 and one half sids on the subject.

[Delerak]

Grappling, I like it.  Always wanted something more advanced then just subdue.  Even though, lol - in terms of normal muds subdue is advanced.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Here is the bottom line. If someone tries to subdue you in the city, it is generally a soldier..generally. You are more than likely not going to have your weapons out in the first place. If unarmed, no attack when subdue is attempted. If armed, your bad.

In the desert, if you are riding or walking along without a weapon out, you might be an idiot. So yes...attack when subdue is attempted.

I like the idea of the one round of attacks, with an equal delay for the failed subdue and for the attack before extra commands, like 'kill guy', or 'subdue dude', or e;e;n, can be entered.

I would also like to see perhaps another command, much like subdue, but for mundane purposes, like lovers carrying each other, or you carrying a sick person here and there. A command like 'carry'.

Senario:

em leans down and kisses the short girl
The big guy leans down and kisses the short girl.

carry girl
You pick up the short girl.
(She has nosave off. If she does not, you get the message 'That person does not want to be carried.' The room and the person get no message, because it would be irrational for someone to try to carry, in that way, someone who does not want to be carried.)

The short girl slides from your arms.
(The player of the girl has just typed 'walk/run/sneak' while being carried. BTW, she could also kill you while being carried in this manner. Draw a knife, have one, punch him, backstab him...whatever...of course, the knife pulling would be noticed...)

End of Senario

My main point was concerning the subdue. But the carry command would be good. It would give the message 'The big guy has arrived from the west, carrying the short girl'...more RPish for situations such as lovers, sick buddies, or pets. Release would do as it does in subdue...passing to another person or laying them down. If the person is sleeping, they get the message that they are being carried. If they are unconsious, it does what it does now, no message. I hate the current subdue thing with those more delicate situations.

Just the bottom line....

Venomz

[X-D]

Oh, a few things I did not mention, nosave would make it so the grapple auto succeeded and the victem would also have the option to 'give in' at any time.

And I would have it so that the grappling skill itself would be the main factor in deciding the match with everything else secondary and in order, much like current combat has an order of what is checked against.
Two people with basicly equal grapple skill then the checks would fall to the secondary, size, strength and agility.

And the last point, if one succeeded in subduing the other then the victem gets no more chances to escape unless the subduer does something that would allow it, IE, draw weapon, mount an animal, attack.
Reasoning on this is based on my bouncing experiance in real life, and that is simply if I have a hold of you to the point you are 'subdued' then if you attempted to get away you are only going to do so at the cost of severe pain and injury.

Also, it would make sense to be able to transfer control of a subdued person to another person.

[Delirium]

I like Venomz's idea. Would give a lot of RP opportunities, especially for those that are trying to RP being sick or badly wounded.

[Rindan]

Hmm, Rindan, I think this is one of the first times I've disagreed with you.
I think it's definitly possible to grab someone who has a weapon, especially if they're using a club, and especially with the Zalanthan style of relatively dull swords.  Maybe you grab their weapon, or their wrist and pull them towards you.  And that's why it's a skill, so you can get really good at it (so don't say "Oh, have you ever tried to subdue someone with a weapon?").

I think you are missing the crux of my argument.  My argument is that if you can't manage to tap someone with a sword (or some other weapon), then you can't get two hands onto them and hold them down.  Sure you can grab a hold of someone with a weapon, but you better be much more skilled then them.  A blunt weapon might not be enough to kill them, but it sure as hell is enough to make nix their initial attack.  If you try and grapple someone to the ground who has a baseball bat and he smacks you across the head, you are not going to keep moving forward to grab hold of them.

Simply put, if you can't even touch someone with a weapon, you can not get two hands on them and hold them down.  Given the choice between fighting a guy wielding a weapon with my bare hands or with a weapon, even if I am significantly bigger and strong and could pummel them once they are pinned, I'd take a weapon anyways.  Weapons vastly amplify your strength, power, and ability to get past their defenses.  As it stands, if you want to kill a master warrior, fighting him with weapons is suicide, but charging him barehanded might prove to be a viable and successful tactic.  This is simply wrong.

Simply treat subdue like a normal attack.  If your opponent is unarmed then they take massive penalties and are likely to be hit (IE, subdue works like it does now).  If they are armed, and can't even hit them with a long pointed object, then  your chances of getting two hands on them is very low unless you are far more skilled.


An alternative way to do subdue might be to have it so that if you try to subdue it immediately throws you into combat with that person.  How long you have to stand in combat with that person depends upon how skilled you are, how fast you are, and your strength, and how skilled the person you are attacking is.  So, combat would initiate when you attempt to subdue, then after a few rounds of combat (the number of rounds determined by skill and stats), you would make a successful or unsuccessful subdue attempt.

A master swordsman who is armed would probably take many rounds to subdue.  During that time you would have to fight them unarmed, and of course be killed unless you were very lucky or very skilled.  On the other hand, if you try and subdue someone who is unarmed, you only need to fight hand to hand, and you don't have to deal with skill bonuses associated with weapons to determine how long it takes to grapple them.  This, I think would provide the proper level of realism and make it so that subdue is not the magical assassin like sneak attack that it is now.  If you want to grab someone, be prepared to weather their blows for a few moments while you try and get close and grab them.  This would simulate that struggle that a subdue style attack would result in.  Subduing would no longer be the hit or miss struggle.  A half giant might still be able to grab a skilled and armed warrior, but he might find himself practically dead by the time he finally gets that warrior to stop flailing and fighting back.

Further, this style would give criminals a chance to give up much easier.  Once a law enforcement person starts trying to subdue them and combat is initiated, the criminal could just no save and be captured.

[Gorobei]

Damn you, Rindan, you have a way with words.

[Carnage]

Or they could just kick you in the nuts when you're not looking and tackle you.

Hey, whatever works.

[Anonymous]

Hey, heres a simple idea, maybe this will solve the problem. Just make subdue - subdue. Not subdue/kill. If you have someone subdued than all the subduer can do is hold the subduey. No kill elf or no es sword, kill elf. You got them subdued thats your action, if you want to fight, when you type kill elf the code releases the elf and then combat begins, insted of resolving the first strike before the release simple yes, and it still keeps the useful aspect of the subdue skill, but stops the insta kill that the giants and other muscle races have.

thanks for the time kiddgoth, had to sign it this way the gdb won't let me log in. it fears my opinions...lol... peace