Subdue - Immobilization or Prep for Death.

[LoD]

Good evening.

I come before you today to offer a suggestion.  To change the subdue skill in a way that would placate the many naysayers whom have voiced their distaste for the overbalanced and heavy handed nature of the skill for months and years upon the GDB.

In the many discussions I have read over the years, the main complaint I hear is that people feel the subdue skill is overpowered.  Usually the arguement is that they find it unrealistic that their 50-day warrior, capable of defeating gith armies bare handed, is somehow grabbed and killed by a 1-hour half-giant, barely capable of remembering his name.

My suggestion is to remove the damage bonus to the subduer.

Now, let me explain.  I propose that subdue do just as its name says and 'subdue' the opponent.  Following the subdue, the subdued PC would suffer all of the normal penatlies: inability to move, inability to attack, inabiliy to do much of anything.  The person doing the subduing would be ABLE to attack, but it would release them prior to the attack and all normal offense, defense and damage would proceed as if the person had never been subdued.

I further propose that any increased damage to a subdued person HAVE to be delivered from another source - a fellow raider, mugger, passerby or obliging carru.  This would force someone wishing to use subdue as a method of instantly killing someone to have a partner in crime, someone to back him up and kill the person while he held them.

I believe this change in the code would only promote balance and a better use of the skill as intended.  I feel as if the common Arm player feels that his biggest fear is losing a long-lived PC to a 1-hour mul or half-giant that stalks in, grabs their PC with little or no regard to their coded ability and smashes their head into roast beef.  This change would change how subdue was used and weed out the few twinks that rely upon the current code to be able to deliver a killing blow to someone of vastly superior skill.

If changes in the skill would go even further, I would propose that the fields used to determine someone getting subdued be along the lines of:

Strength + offense + subdue skill (possibly weapon skill)

vs.

Agility + defense + subdue skill (possibly weapon skill)

Anyhow - my two cents for a possible change to subdue.

-LoD

[chang]

While I'm not familiar with the ongoing discussions about subdue and its relative power, I humbly hold the opinion that subdue's quirk is in its check to succeed:  Its a strength role.  While strength is required to hold a person still (check against their flee), you have to catch them first, which, to catch some o' them quick lil' buggers would take quite a move.  Once held however, It makes sense to me for the subduer to snap their neck or whatnot, ending their 50-day existence.  Remembering however that ye olde 50-day warrior is gonna be a lot quicker on his feet and will know to watch out for those encircling half-giant arms. Sooooo.... cut to the diagram.

Say you're a 200 lbs half-giant, and you wanna subdue an elfie.  Its gonna be hard to catch him, but when you do... he's toast.
Say you're a 90 lbs elf, and you wanna subdue a half-giant.. You can do it real fast like.. just jump up and wrap your arms and legs around his head- that's not problem, but he's gonna shake you off even faster like.

Perhaps my conception of the current subdue system is just totally off, in which case- disregard this post.

[EvilRoeSlade]

It seems to me like I've said this many times, but I'm not averse to repeating myself.  Once a half-giant or mul has you, there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to kill you.  I don't care about game balance.  Muls and half-giants are karma races, and I trust (most) people with Karma not to abuse the power that these races grant.  I wouldn't say that they are Karma races because its difficult to RP them.  Hell, its TWICE as hard to RP a dwarf as it is a mul or half-giant.  They are karma races for the very reason that they are more deadly then their counterpart races with fewer karma requirement.  Let me add that I have seen other races attempt to subdue-kill, and they have failed miserably.  I'm not going to argue for or against a lack of damage bonus, because I don't believe that there IS a damage bonus.

For your idea of people immediately releasing somebody before they attack their subdued victim, I disagree with this very strongly.  I generally only subdue-kill (with half-giants) for one, and only one reason.  Because nothing else will keep my victims from spamming flee self until they have escaped.  Not breaking their limbs, not slamming them against a solid surface, not shaking them, not squeezing them, not tightening my grip, and not drawing a weapon to their throat and telling them that they're dead if they try one more move like that.  Only knocking them out.  If something like this were implimented, then I'd say that it would only be fair to eliminate flee self altogether, so that all that remains is the check during the initial struggle before the victim is at your mercy.

One thing you didn't mention that I wouldn't mind being implimented.  Making it impossible for the subduer to draw a weapon on the subdued victim.  Recently it was made more difficult to do this, but I'm sure its still possible.

As for your suggestion on changing the skill check, I'm suprised to find myself agreeing with this.  The way you suggest it would still give muls and half-giants the advantage they already have, but it would change things around so that skilled individuals have a better chance of survival.  There is only one slight modification that I would like.  Instead of your proposed formula it would be...

Strength + offense + subdue + size

Agility + defense + subdue + size

No weapon skill though.  I don't see how that has any bearing on subdue.

[Lazloth]

Strength + offense + subdue skill (possibly weapon skill)
vs.
Agility + defense + subdue skill (possibly weapon skill)

This has been hashed out several times (ie., here), and I won't bore with repetition.

I'd only add the corollary that the victim's subdue really has no bearing in the above equation; this is not like reversing a disarm attempt.  Instead I'd suggest, assuming someone bothers to tinker with the code, that the flee skill might be measured into the equation.

[Delerak]

Did you ever think that the half-giant is maybe breaking your neck or back and not just hitting you the way the code says?

[Fedaykin]

I like the idea personally.  As for half-gaints or such breaking your neck, if thats their bag then there is nothing stopping them from emoting such.  I've never seen it personally, and I'm not just going to automatically assume thats what they're attempting to do every time.  Why would a half-giant know to snap someone's neck anyways?  They aren't trained expert killers, they're low level intelligent children or idiots typically.

It seems far more realistic to me that if a half-giant grabs someone he is going to try smash them or "squish" them alla their fist, clubs or what have you than go for a strategic neck snapping strike.

Well, as always, the Princess Bride reference. In the book, Morgenstern goes into Fezzik's early "champion" days. Where basically, Fezzik would get into the ring with champions all around Europe, grab them, bear hug, and win. So the squishing and smashing would probably be a good way to think of those hits.

[LoD]

Thanks for the replies.

I certainly understand that a half-giant (and really only a half-giant) has the absolute size for the subdue code to work as it's presently written with respect to the damage done in the initial strike.  I could argue that of a mul, because if they free up a hand to draw a weapon or hit you - that leaves a hand free for you.

And we're not talking about wrestling here, we're talking about if you don't get away, there's going to be a club put through your face.  Kicking, biting, eye-gouging, no holds barred.  I'd say you'd have to have a pretty good grip with both hands to manage keeping them immobilized with the exception of the half-giant.

Now, once a half-giant has a hold of you I can understand him inflicting some deadly amount of force because of his size and ability, but then perhaps we should focus more closely upon the initial grab.  As stated in a few replies, it should be -more- difficult to grab someone of better skill.  As for the values I selected, here is why I would add them.

Subduer = Strength + Offense +Subdue + Size + (Weapon Skill*)

Strength - I believe this one is obvious, stronger you are, better grip.
Offense - They should be able to get past the opponent's defenses.
Subdue - Their skill in being able to -keep- someone held in place.
Size - The sheer size of them as they make their attempt.
Weapon Skill (*) - The use of their weapon in blocking the opponent's.

Victim = Agility + Defense + Subdue + Size + (Weapon Skill*)

Agility - The ability to dodge or wriggle out of their grasp.
Defense - The ability to avoid their "attack" of their arms.
Subdue - To avoid the maneuver.  If you put a trained wrestler with a non-trained wrestler, they aren't going to have the first clue about what to do when the wrestler gets ahold of them - but another wrestler would.  The more the person knows ABOUT subduing someone, the better they should be able to avoid those holds.  This is like saying that someone who fences should have the same chance to hit a fencer as a non-fencer.
Size - Again, the size should make a difference.
Weapon Skill (*) - I put this in at the request of a few others for discussion because if someone was rushing you while you had your sword drawn and could kill most people in two cuts - it should factor in to weather they still have a -hand- to grab you with.

My question to you, as players, would be would making a change so that solo-subduers (with Half-Giants excepted) couldn't make a critical strike against you help or hurt the game and the RP situations?  Would it make people have to RP more?  Would it make people consider using the skill less as a method of winning the fight over a superior opponent because the code allows them to?  Would it provide more interesting RP situations or force the players to use the skill more realistically? (i.e. with help)

Just a few more thoughts.

-LoD

[Dan]

Flame away but I don't think you should be able to subdue unless the person is knocked out, nosaved or asleep. No matter how you look at it, subduing, drawing weapons and attacking is twinking. If your holding your weapons than you aren't holding them anymore. Also Delerak, if you think those attacks by -weapons- when subdued represent crushing them then wouldn't it make more sense for the person to just attack without weapons in their hands, ie barehanded? Frankly I think this skill should be nerfed just to stop all the misuse. In all my time at Arm, I have never been subdued unless the person did one of these numbers... e;subdue and to me, that is rediculous. Some of you may trust those karma classes not to do this, but you probably havn't been rushed on by a group of byn subdued by a mul and attacked all in the blink on an eye, you just can't cross the distance it takes to grab someone that fast. In my opinion, its more realistic for someone to "spam flee" becuase, there -is- a certain amount of distance between characters as they enter a room on each other, whether or not people choose to ignore this or not.

Conclusion: Make it so you can only subdue sleeping, unconscious, or nosaved people. People who use the skill usually abuse it, so take it away from everyone. I guarantee if these changes occoured no one would complain about a HG or MUL rushing in and subdue killing them ever again.

[Anonymous]

I've breached this topic before, and I brought the time of play into the equation not because I believe that a 25 day old human should suddenly be immune to the effects of strength that his target would have, but because I was saddened with the way with which subdue was used and that the end result was that a PC with a lot of playtime was lost in such a manner.

And, to be clear, subdue;hit has never happened to me.

If I, as a buff human warrior, face off with a mul and get caught in a bear hug and knocked out, then so be it, its completely realistic.  If the mul missed his subdue he would be slaughtered.

Rather, its the e;subdue target entered in quick succession which annoyed me.  I've never been killed this way before, but I've seen someone else, and it was done in a way that didn't take room size into account.

If I, as a human, am sitting atop a kank in the middle of the grasslands, I would see the trail of dust from an approaching mul a mile off.  Movement command->subdue does not take this into account.

I've talked to others about this before and the basic argument against it was "what is my raider supposed to do, ask politely to subdue?"

No, that's not my point.  But clearly, to me at least, any use of the code which is used to get around the limitations of reality is abuse.

Raiders/assassins and killers should not be relying on quick typing speed to alleviate the obstacles the encounter with their quarry, but instead on patience and utilizing those same obstacles to their benefit.

Desire on the part of the aggressor to capture someone does not give them the superhuman ability to sudden cross great distances in the blink of an eye and wrap their mul arms around an elf.

I'd prefer to see subdue left mostly the way it is, with strength the largest determining factor, but if the room is outdoors I would like to see it set so that there is a variable length delay before the subduing actually takes place along with an echo to the room.

Believe you me, I've chased many a player and I really *do* know the frustrations of poorly played targets.  I lost a several day old ranger to someone who was lying on the ground severely wounded in a tent and jumped up and ran out as I entered.  But poor play on someone else's part does not mean I should lower my own quality of play.  The game degenerates when we do that.

[Armaddict]

I would say leave it alone.  Sure, you're a 50 day warrior, but should that mean that you're utterly invincible to the point you don't have to be careful anymore?  I think if you look around and see a half-giant raider, you should have to be at least -somewhat- careful.  You don't want to die to subdue?  Have a friend ready to attack the wrestler, or run away.  Don't nerf the skill just because you don't want to have to be careful around it anymore.

[LoD]

I would also like to state that I've never been the victim of an e;subdue;kill situation either.  I have had PC's that were subdued before and they were RP'd out rather well without having much of a problem.

My suggestion came as a result of the many people lifting their voices against the power of subdue.  Now, perhaps the change in mul karma and subsequent lack of muls playing the 'exception' to the rule has caused these voices to quiet.  Perhaps the problem wasn't subdue at all, but merely the handful of twinks that had mul karma early and figured they didn't really want to bother with slave RP so they created a 'free' background and went around subdue;killing whomever, whenever.

I don't personally feel afraid or strongly about the skill as it presently stands, but I don't think it would hurt the game if it was toned down in such a way.  It would increase the efforts made to RP as compared to worrying about quick typing.  That was my reason for the suggestion.  Not fear of a PC dying.  Not frustration with dying that way.  Not an intricate discussion on who could hit what pressure point with their thumb, just if would affect the game in a good or bad way.

-LoD

[Quirk]

I would say leave it alone.  Sure, you're a 50 day warrior, but should that mean that you're utterly invincible to the point you don't have to be careful anymore?

Well, yes, when it comes to combat code, the entire point of the skill system is so that you *don't* have to fear the vastly less skilled than you. The way subdue is now, the subdue/flee and subdue again tactic is vastly more effective than using weapons. This leads to the paradox that the armed 50-day warrior need not fear an armed half-giant, but the bare-handed one is extremely dangerous. Realistically, if the half-giant can't hit her with a dagger or a bare fist, how is he to get through her guard with that same bare hand and proceed to take her captive? I'm very much in favour of LoD_Snarf's idea.

Quirk

[Angela Christine]

I think the ability to draw a weapon while subduing someone could be done away with.  

Last summer I had a character with subdue, so I was fooling around with it and subdued a vestric or serpent . . . some little creature.  I was quite surprised that I was able to draw my weapon, especially since I couldn't keep a weapon in hand while attempting the subdue.  Ok, maybe it is plausible to hold a small creature with one hand while drawing a weapon from my belt with the other, I'd expect the creature to take the opportunity of my momentary distraction to try to escape, but nobody claimed serpents were smart.  Then I tried kill creature, and sure enough it worked!  Wow, that was neat.  I thought it would be hard to initiate combat with my hands full like that, but it was easy!  The whole thing tasted vaguely twinkish to me, so I decided not to have my hunter try to take down prey by wrestling it to the ground and then slitting it's neck anymore.

If the subduer can draw a weapon, the subduee should get an automatic flee attempt with a significant bonus when the attacker trys to draw the weapon.  It should be harder to hold onto a person with one hand than with two.  An expert subduer can still do it, but then an expert can probably roll and smoke spice while securely holding on to his victim.   :wink:

If the subduer attempts to attack, the subduee should get an automatic flee attempt, because manuvering to hit, cut or strangle the victim will give them a moment where the hold isn't as secure.  Panic/adrenaline would give the subdued a little extra speed too.  If the flee attempt succeds normal combat is initiated with only a small bonus to the attacker, if the flee attempt fails the Super Subduer Attack proceeds as usual.

This way if you put Nosave on to submit to being subdued, you would still have a chance to get away if they subduer takes one of his hands off you to try something fancy.  So nosaving to allow a raider to capture you wouldn't be suicidal, since you wouldn't be facing automatic death.  The subdue-autokill would still work with two raiders, one to hold you while the other guts you, but that makes perfect sense to me.

AC

I'm very much in favor of AC's suggestions for automatic flee attempts (Unless nosaved of course). I'm also in favor of increasing the weight of the subduee's checks on defense and subdue during a subdue attempt.
(Aren't you glad it wasn't just an agree n/t?)

[Kronus]

My only real opinion on the subdue->kill tactic is that the skill as it is ignores the reality that putting someone in a full nelson is nothing at all like a hold person spell. Just because you grapple someone and restrain them from running away does not automatically mean that they're standing there, unmoving and easy pickings to slit their throat.

If I can relate a story from my wild youth, there was a time when sibling rivalry went a little too far and things got all "Lord of the Flies" in the neighborhood. One night myself and a friend were harassing his older brother and his friend, and then running away when they came after us. It ended up that I got caught and the older friend essentially 'subdued' me. He had me in a half-nelson and had my other arm pinned up against my back in that way that makes professional wrestlers slap the mat and pretend to cry like babies.
After he got a hold of me, the older brother started running at us and brought his fist back to hit me. At the last second, I heaved myself forward to the result that I was the only one who ended up not hurt. The older brother punched his friend in the side of the head, and my ducking pulled his friend forward and slammed his skull against the older brother's mouth. End result? One boy on the ground clutching his head, another on the ground missing teeth, and me running away.

Now I'm not telling this story to show off what a leet ninja I am. I'm not. The point is that just because someone's in an immobilizing grip doesn't mean that they can't still squirm, wriggle and move around, making it hard or impossible to land a weapon on them in such close quarters (how do you hit someone with a club when you have your other arm entangled with theirs anyway?).
The way the code seems to work currently, as soon as a subdue lands on someone, they may as well have been hit with a hold person spell. They're not allowed to make any action except to try to break free (which is fine, except that with the delay after the fact, you probably won't get far.), and are completely at the mercy of anyone who gets in the mood to kill them. The code not factor in, at all, the raw defensive instinct of someone grabbed, held and threatened to make use of every ounce of strength and mobility to defend themselves.

Now, all of this is assuming that subdue represents standing holds. Taking someone down to the ground (like what police do to cuff someone who's trying to run) is a completely different story, but since the skill allows you to walk with the person subdued, I don't think that's what it represents.
I also don't think it represents the quick-kill Special Forces type of attack, where the subduer is sneaking up behind, grabbing someone across the mouth and slitting their throat in one motion, nor is it the 'prison style' method of grabbing someone around the shoulders from behind and sticking a shiv six or ten times into their kidney. Both of those are more like backstabs, I would think.

Just the theory of the subdue->kill tactic seems absurd to me, because it doesn't really work well unless the person is unconscious, sleeping or so drunk they don't know what's going on anyway. Subdue is a method to keep people from running away not a method to immobilize them for easy slaying, and removing the disgusting bonuses to attack and penalties to defense that the subduer and subdued respectively gain would probably help to more accurately reflect that someone can be kept from running, but they're still far from defenseless if pressed.

Really, though, in the end, I don't think anything more needs to be said about it beyond the fact that it seems to be the pkiller twink's method of choice. With that kind of endorsement, it should be glaringly obvious that it's out of balance with the rest of the game.

[Delerak]

How do you know if it is out of balance?  Have you ever been held by a 500 lb person who is nothing but muscle?  I am quite sure that if they can bench press 700 lbs they can hold you down with one hand.  Same with half-giants, they are 2500 lbs of muscle and bone, and are 12 feet tall, they could easily grab you and do whatever they want to you.  I don't agree with what players have done in the past with subdue/kill.  Once a half-giant walked in, subdued me and killed me, that was it.  Yes it pissed me off because it was in the desert, and I had my weapons out, I could have easily dispersed him if he had attacked me, but he used subdue, which was bull shit, my character never would have let him get that close with his hand, why not just lop it off if he reaches out to me?  Well the code won't let you do that, that's the only real problem, you don't get a chance to see subdue coming because they can just type in the command and then it's all over.  There should be a countermeasure for it.  To get a hold of someone you have to be close, and if they have a weapon it's just lame and unrealistic in that sense.  But in any situations it might not be.  Like being in a jail cell or a room where you are sitting comfortably at a couch and this guy walks over and grabs you by the neck.  Not really unrealistic, and if he was strong enough he would have plenty of things he could do to you.  Subdue is not just grabbing someone and holding them, I see it has many different things in one skill.  Just like kick or disarm, its not just doing what the skill says it is, you can emote attacking with your elbow or aiming an attack at their thumb.  So I also see subdue as getting a handhold on their neck/head and then if they use kill unarmed it is sort of an attempt to break your neck or smash their knee into your stomach.  Drawing a weapon is a totally different thing, because then you HAVE to hold them with one hand while you mess with your mace or sword or whatever, it's quite bullshitty, and people who do that should be castrated and thrown out to the vultures.

[Xanous]

The fault I have with the subdue code is that the victim being armed apparently has no effect.  Being armed should make it much harder to subdue a person, since the subduer has to worry about getting a sword in the gut.

So I would propose that your weapon skill be added into the subdue defense calculations.

And/Or

If you fail a subdue attempt against an armed person the victim gets free attacks on you (like if you pick up objects while fighting).  Not nessissarily starting combat, but just a couple free attacks.

The buff mul tried to grab the tough man, but he wrestles away.
The tough man slashes the buff mul on the chest, connecting hard.
The tough man slashes the buff mul's legs, nicking him.

[Angela Christine]

If you fail a subdue attempt against an armed person the victim gets free attacks on you (like if you pick up objects while fighting).  Not nessissarily starting combat, but just a couple free attacks.

The buff mul tried to grab the tough man, but he wrestles away.
The tough man slashes the buff mul on the chest, connecting hard.
The tough man slashes the buff mul's legs, nicking him.

Hmm, I don't know that I'd want an auto-attack against someone that failed to subdue me.  Most people don't walk around with nosave on all the time, and I'd hate to auto-attack a soldier who unexpectedly tried to subdue me.   :shock:  Assaulting a soldier is usually going to be a worse crime then whatever the soldier was trying to arrest me for in the first time, with a much more severe punishment.

AC

[Gunslinger]

Being armed needs to pose a significant danger to the subduer. You don't just grab someone who has several feet of sharpened bone between yours and their body mass.

[Sanvean]

Some good points being brought up, and we're taking a look at changing the code. Just wanted to let folks know that this is being addressed.

[Anonymous]

Finally someone has listened to my pleas that have fell on deaf ears for so long. I have posted many times about the subdue/kill skill being a bit over balanced an unrealistic, I was beginning to think it was just me as no matter what I posted, others would shoot it down. I think if you have a 50 day warrior, (bows to who ever stayed alive that long) you should naturally be more cautious than if you had a 2 hours charatcer, after putting all that time in I would be walkin on egg-shells, especially if I saw a giant even without the subdue/kill option. I have died twice to the subdue/kill command both to giant. no rpin players, If the staff decides to keep the code the same fine, I just implore the players of the giant variety, if you subdue someone rp with them before you smash their brains in, I gaurantee you will have more fun.... :lol:

[Cenghiz]

I was only once subdued... typed flee two times, with say's and emotes. And then he drew a weapon. He left me to wield it but I thought my character would not be able to escape so didn't escape. So we played a good mugging role with that -unbalanced- subdue skill.
Whatever you do, if a person wants to abuse, he will always find a way. It's no use to talk about code balances. If everyone acts real, everything would be fine except a few codewise accidents.
Half-giants must have long arms. If you step aside from him, you can't hit him. If you come closer, he may EASILY grab you. Even an elf's whole body would move slower than just an arm of a giant. So if you're in combat distance, an idiot half-giant can grab the 50-day-old warrior. If you don't think you're in combat distance, emote it and hope to be facing a RP'er, or type flee self.

[crymerci]

This isn't precisely the subdue code, but I had an idea.

Is it possible for soldiers to change their code such that a criminal gets one free subdue resistance? I ask because while one can go peaceably by use of the nosave status, sometimes you forget to 'flip the switch' or don't have time to do so before the soldier rushes in.

ICly: A soldier runs in from the next block (maybe at your back) and 20 milliseconds after identifying him/herself, tackles you. Maybe you don't have time to register who they are and so reflexively resist before allowing yourself to be taken.

Obviously it would be possible to abuse this, so in addition to the once-per-arrest thing, perhaps limit it to 3 or so times total, assuming that after that point your description would be widely bandied about amongst the local soldiers as a known habitual resister-of-arrest.

[Quirk]

Even an elf's whole body would move slower than just an arm of a giant. So if you're in combat distance, an idiot half-giant can grab the 50-day-old warrior.

Seeing a human can, with a little practice, evade grabs and punches from other humans through dodging (this being the philosophy behind a few martial arts), what makes you think a slow creature like a half-giant would have better luck against an agile elf? And I think odds would be greatly reduced if said elf was holding a sharp pointy object that he or she could jab into the half-giant's hand.

Quirk

[Hot_Dancer]

I agree with Dan. Make subdue useless unless used on sleeping/knocked out/nosave opponents. You want to mug someone? Do it the old fashion way and beat them with a club first. Everyone knows bludgeoning weapons are intensely effective at this, perfect with mercy on.

Hot_Dancer

[LoD]

I disagree that subdue should be made effective only when a target is sleeping, knocked out or no_saved.  There are many situations in which the skill comes in very handy when used in a non-combative way.

I would see subdue be kept as it stands, but without the damage bonus for the person holding the victim and with a better system of checks and rolls on the initial grab.  

Things we could no longer do if subdue was made only on prone people:

1. No longer subdue criminals.
2. No longer stop someone from spam fleeing.
3. No longer subdue an LD companion to drag them back to safety.
4. No longer practice the skill, it'd be 100% accurate under that system.
5. No longer stop that magicker from magicking without HAVING to kill them.

There are a lot of uses of the subdue skill without changing how it can be used.  If they changed the chance of grabbing someone as well as changed the damage bonus the subduer received, that'd make them have to work in pairs - which they usually don't.

Kalan for thought.

-LoD

[Rindan]

I don't think subdue should be made useless, just useless for some things.  I think that if someone has a weapon out, your chances of subduing them should be about the same as your chances to hit them with a weapon.  If you can't hit them with a nice and long weapon, then sure as hell are not going to grab them with two hands and hold them down.  I don't care how you slice it, if you can't hit them with a weapon, you simply can not grab them.  Subdue should have a similar fail rate as a weapon.

This will still make subdue completely useful.  So, just like the way weapons work, if you attack someone who is unarmed, your chances to hit (or subdue in this case) are relatively good, even if they are superior to you.  Lord Templar Inbreed could still order his half giant to grab the elf sitting at the bar without any issue.  Pick pockets who fail could still be dragged to jail.  The difference is that if the person is ready for you and has a weapon out, you will need to either be very good, or beat them down the old fashion way.  This is not a bad thing in my mind.  Can you pull out a dagger and increase your chances of escaping from militia?  Sure.  Of course, you are now guilty of trying to kill a militia man instead of just flee from one.  If you draw a weapon when a Templar comes for you, you better hope to hell he doesn't catch you.  Raiders who do e;subdue are now rendered ineffective, as most wise people in the wastes keep a weapon at ready.

Subdue would still be a deadly killer, it just means that you might need to think a little harder before using it.  You can still grab someone who is far superior to you and beat them down, you just need to catch them when they are off their guard.

Simply stated, if you can't hit a guy with a weapon,  you sure as hell are not going to grab them with two hands and hold them down.  Make the chance to subdue similar to the chance to hit someone would leave subdue as being effective for the things it should be effective for, while at the same time removing its more twinkish uses.

[Lazloth]

Simply stated, if you can't hit a guy with a weapon,  you sure as hell are not going to grab them with two hands and hold them down.  Make the chance to subdue similar to the chance to hit someone would leave subdue as being effective for the things it should be effective for, while at the same time removing its more twinkish uses.

I don't really agree with this sentiment, but I do think that the subdue function needs addressing.

[Gorobei]

Hmm, Rindan, I think this is one of the first times I've disagreed with you.
I think it's definitly possible to grab someone who has a weapon, especially if they're using a club, and especially with the Zalanthan style of relatively dull swords.  Maybe you grab their weapon, or their wrist and pull them towards you.  And that's why it's a skill, so you can get really good at it (so don't say "Oh, have you ever tried to subdue someone with a weapon?").

[Delerak]

But Gorobei, the thing is, it's not like martial arts exists.  I mean you get by with what you can do.  And subdue is more of a brutish technique I'd say.  So if someone has a weapon, and knows how to use it, they won't let you get close to them.  I mean it's common fucking sense, look at real life, give someone a club, you try and grab them.  Simple as that.  Even real martial artists are full of shit when they do that defense crap, you never know what the person holding the weapon can do, and in arm if your a 50 day warrior I'd say that dude knows how to handle himself.

[X-D]

I also think that attempting to subdue someone who has weapons out should either be hard or have repercussions, subdue I think should basicly stay the same as now for two unarmed people, but if the target is armed then the subduer is basicly doing a bonzai style attack (assuming he is not hidden) and the target should get the chance to do damage, maybe even break/stop the subdue if the damage is high enough, after all, 40 points of damage is basicly severe crippling or near crippling injury, You, in real life  would likly have a hard time continuing to grapple with someone after they crushed all the bones in your shoulder with a baseball bat:) Why should it be different here?

Also, I notice that other things are rarely taken into account, RP wise with subdue, I once saw a templar who walked into the gaj and emoted standing near the door,(north end of the room)  have a person who walked in from the back room(south end of the room) and emoted sidling towards the sleeping area (east side) subdued, Now, this is at least poor roleplay since the giant managed to basicly teleport to the other end of the room in an instant without knocking a single person or table over.
Hhhmm, where am I going with this, Oh, just another idea for subdue, Maybe split the delay in half, half coming when command is entered, and the other half after the subdue attempt actually goes off.


But What I would really like to see is subdue changed completly, even change the name, My suggestion is Grapple or grappling, In this there would be a little mini 'combat' Which would take into account, size, strength, agility and the grappling skill, along with if the target was armed or not, this combat, which would have a time limit of sorts and would have it's own commands, Say from the aggresser side he could type grapple elf disarm, this would set up the first round for him he would attempt to snatch the elf's weapon away in the first round of grappling, now, this would basicly still be the same suprise attack that subdue currently is, But, even if he did succeed, the elf would then have several choices, he could flee, now, because the aggresser moved first to get rid of the weapon this should have a very good chance of success for the first round, or maybe he could attempt reverse and that of course is to subdue his attacker, maybe if he was a warrior he could bash, many things, Now, the second 'round' would be the deciding round, and each side would again have an array of possible commands, but this time they would basicly be the same command choices, there is a huge amount of possiblilities, Oh, and if the aggresser wanted, he could ignore the weapon for the initial attack, and say maybe type grapple elf bonzai(joke, maybe grapple elf subdue) or trip or something. at the end of the second round, if the victem had not managed to escape, knock the aggresser to the ground or do crippling injury or subdue the aggresser then the aggresser succeeds in subduing his victem.

Hhhmm, The more I think about it the more I like it, This type of system would also give other pc's time to react and maybe attempt to help or hinder one of the grapplers, maybe even jump into the fray as a grappler, If nothing else, everybody would have time to get one or two neat emotes in.

Oh, and one last thing, same as subdue now, If you are the aggresser you should not be able to wield weapons while engaging, nor should either party be able to draw weapons during the grappling rounds.

Ok, well, that is my 22 and one half sids on the subject.

[Delerak]

Grappling, I like it.  Always wanted something more advanced then just subdue.  Even though, lol - in terms of normal muds subdue is advanced.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Here is the bottom line. If someone tries to subdue you in the city, it is generally a soldier..generally. You are more than likely not going to have your weapons out in the first place. If unarmed, no attack when subdue is attempted. If armed, your bad.

In the desert, if you are riding or walking along without a weapon out, you might be an idiot. So yes...attack when subdue is attempted.

I like the idea of the one round of attacks, with an equal delay for the failed subdue and for the attack before extra commands, like 'kill guy', or 'subdue dude', or e;e;n, can be entered.

I would also like to see perhaps another command, much like subdue, but for mundane purposes, like lovers carrying each other, or you carrying a sick person here and there. A command like 'carry'.

Senario:

em leans down and kisses the short girl
The big guy leans down and kisses the short girl.

carry girl
You pick up the short girl.
(She has nosave off. If she does not, you get the message 'That person does not want to be carried.' The room and the person get no message, because it would be irrational for someone to try to carry, in that way, someone who does not want to be carried.)

The short girl slides from your arms.
(The player of the girl has just typed 'walk/run/sneak' while being carried. BTW, she could also kill you while being carried in this manner. Draw a knife, have one, punch him, backstab him...whatever...of course, the knife pulling would be noticed...)

End of Senario

My main point was concerning the subdue. But the carry command would be good. It would give the message 'The big guy has arrived from the west, carrying the short girl'...more RPish for situations such as lovers, sick buddies, or pets. Release would do as it does in subdue...passing to another person or laying them down. If the person is sleeping, they get the message that they are being carried. If they are unconsious, it does what it does now, no message. I hate the current subdue thing with those more delicate situations.

Just the bottom line....

Venomz

[X-D]

Oh, a few things I did not mention, nosave would make it so the grapple auto succeeded and the victem would also have the option to 'give in' at any time.

And I would have it so that the grappling skill itself would be the main factor in deciding the match with everything else secondary and in order, much like current combat has an order of what is checked against.
Two people with basicly equal grapple skill then the checks would fall to the secondary, size, strength and agility.

And the last point, if one succeeded in subduing the other then the victem gets no more chances to escape unless the subduer does something that would allow it, IE, draw weapon, mount an animal, attack.
Reasoning on this is based on my bouncing experiance in real life, and that is simply if I have a hold of you to the point you are 'subdued' then if you attempted to get away you are only going to do so at the cost of severe pain and injury.

Also, it would make sense to be able to transfer control of a subdued person to another person.

[Delirium]

I like Venomz's idea. Would give a lot of RP opportunities, especially for those that are trying to RP being sick or badly wounded.

[Rindan]

Hmm, Rindan, I think this is one of the first times I've disagreed with you.
I think it's definitly possible to grab someone who has a weapon, especially if they're using a club, and especially with the Zalanthan style of relatively dull swords.  Maybe you grab their weapon, or their wrist and pull them towards you.  And that's why it's a skill, so you can get really good at it (so don't say "Oh, have you ever tried to subdue someone with a weapon?").

I think you are missing the crux of my argument.  My argument is that if you can't manage to tap someone with a sword (or some other weapon), then you can't get two hands onto them and hold them down.  Sure you can grab a hold of someone with a weapon, but you better be much more skilled then them.  A blunt weapon might not be enough to kill them, but it sure as hell is enough to make nix their initial attack.  If you try and grapple someone to the ground who has a baseball bat and he smacks you across the head, you are not going to keep moving forward to grab hold of them.

Simply put, if you can't even touch someone with a weapon, you can not get two hands on them and hold them down.  Given the choice between fighting a guy wielding a weapon with my bare hands or with a weapon, even if I am significantly bigger and strong and could pummel them once they are pinned, I'd take a weapon anyways.  Weapons vastly amplify your strength, power, and ability to get past their defenses.  As it stands, if you want to kill a master warrior, fighting him with weapons is suicide, but charging him barehanded might prove to be a viable and successful tactic.  This is simply wrong.

Simply treat subdue like a normal attack.  If your opponent is unarmed then they take massive penalties and are likely to be hit (IE, subdue works like it does now).  If they are armed, and can't even hit them with a long pointed object, then  your chances of getting two hands on them is very low unless you are far more skilled.


An alternative way to do subdue might be to have it so that if you try to subdue it immediately throws you into combat with that person.  How long you have to stand in combat with that person depends upon how skilled you are, how fast you are, and your strength, and how skilled the person you are attacking is.  So, combat would initiate when you attempt to subdue, then after a few rounds of combat (the number of rounds determined by skill and stats), you would make a successful or unsuccessful subdue attempt.

A master swordsman who is armed would probably take many rounds to subdue.  During that time you would have to fight them unarmed, and of course be killed unless you were very lucky or very skilled.  On the other hand, if you try and subdue someone who is unarmed, you only need to fight hand to hand, and you don't have to deal with skill bonuses associated with weapons to determine how long it takes to grapple them.  This, I think would provide the proper level of realism and make it so that subdue is not the magical assassin like sneak attack that it is now.  If you want to grab someone, be prepared to weather their blows for a few moments while you try and get close and grab them.  This would simulate that struggle that a subdue style attack would result in.  Subduing would no longer be the hit or miss struggle.  A half giant might still be able to grab a skilled and armed warrior, but he might find himself practically dead by the time he finally gets that warrior to stop flailing and fighting back.

Further, this style would give criminals a chance to give up much easier.  Once a law enforcement person starts trying to subdue them and combat is initiated, the criminal could just no save and be captured.

[Gorobei]

Damn you, Rindan, you have a way with words.

[Carnage]

Or they could just kick you in the nuts when you're not looking and tackle you.

Hey, whatever works.

[Anonymous]

Hey, heres a simple idea, maybe this will solve the problem. Just make subdue - subdue. Not subdue/kill. If you have someone subdued than all the subduer can do is hold the subduey. No kill elf or no es sword, kill elf. You got them subdued thats your action, if you want to fight, when you type kill elf the code releases the elf and then combat begins, insted of resolving the first strike before the release simple yes, and it still keeps the useful aspect of the subdue skill, but stops the insta kill that the giants and other muscle races have.

thanks for the time kiddgoth, had to sign it this way the gdb won't let me log in. it fears my opinions...lol... peace