Application Approval Guidelines

[Sanvean]

They are not required to request a change.  If they want an sdesc change at this time, they can request one.  It will not count against the number of description changes they can request.

[Barzalene]

Am I the only who finds lad and lass terribly jarring?

[Beux]

No...I can't stand lad and lass...I really can't. Don't know why, it just doesn't seem right at all.

[LauraMars]

The following are my thoughts on the subject of the boy and girl nouns.   Yes, policy has been laid down, no, it's unlikely to change and I don't expect it to, but what's wrong with reading a fresh perspective?

:idea: My first thought is that behavior does not follow appearance.  Let's say we have a thirteen year old PC with "girl" in her sdesc.  Does she look like a girl?  Of course she does, she's a thirteen year old human, and I expect her to develop like a human being.  Having three younger sisters (all rapidly approaching or experiencing this age...eek!) acquaints me well with this process.  

At thirteen, her body is not developed, has no hips or boobs, her face is round, skin is smoother, not all her baby teeth have fallen out.  Unless there's a policy that says Zalanthan humans always look older than Earth humans and spring from the cradle directly to a weathered and mature exterior, there's going to be a period where they look like children, and most 13-15 year olds I've met fit the bill.

But does our imaginary character act like a girl?  Not at all.  She's seduced and murdered people, lives by herself, is a prostitute, schemes and plots with templars, and generally acts in a way that is unchildlike to the extreme. (This imaginary character is an exaggeration, but it's all possible, no?)  Let me reiterate: behavior does not follow appearence.  Sdescs are about appearences, not behavior.


:idea: My second thought is that you have other words to indicate childhood.  Lass, in fact, according to the Oxford English Dictionary means A GIRL.  It's the first definition.  Maiden and lad are defined likewise (lad, however, obviously means boy).  Youth and teen are especially annoying when you wish to indicate your gender in your short description.  What is a male youth?  A boy.  What is a female teenager?  A girl.  

You must admit that the blond-haired male teenager sounds a bit more awkward than the blond-haired boy, and frankly, I get the exact same impression from both - that of an adolescent human.

However, since this is apparently not the case for the rest of the player base, according to Tlaloc, Sanvean, and the rest, I must restate that this is only my opinion.  How you imms have measured specific reactions to these words, I have no idea, but you've all been mudding before I'd even heard of them, so rock on.

In conclusion (how I've gone on), I recognize the "no kids" policy thing and will say no more words about it...right after these next three  sentences!  Since the impression Staff is giving currently is that there has been substantial abuse in the past with the words "girl" and "boy" in order to escape trouble with the law or what have you, then I'll acquiesce if it's been such a jarring influence on the game world.  We can't have that.  However, I will miss some of the creative freedom the restricted noun list represents, and continue to puzzle quietly to myself over "maiden."

[flurry]

Looks great overall, and a very useful doc to have.

I did find a small goof.

Pronouns:
If a player uses "a" instead of "the", use the web editor to fix it.

These are articles, not pronouns.

[spawnloser]

Laura, you bring up a good point.  Girl = lass.  Boy = lad.  However, I think it has to do with perception more than definition.

[Hymwen]

Are some of these guidelines new? I think I've seen over 40 girls/boys (two of which were my own PCs) and at least 10 breeds in my 6 months of Arming. I personally don't see the sense in disallowing boy/girl, there are so many NPCs with that noun that especially new players will get the wrong impression.

Edit: my opinion is mostly similar to Laura's post, but I can't bother typing that much.

[Angela Christine]

:idea: My first thought is that behavior does not follow appearance.  Let's say we have a thirteen year old PC with "girl" in her sdesc.  Does she look like a girl?  Of course she does, she's a thirteen year old human, and I expect her to develop like a human being.  Having three younger sisters (all rapidly approaching or experiencing this age...eek!) acquaints me well with this process.  

At thirteen, her body is not developed, has no hips or boobs, her face is round, skin is smoother, not all her baby teeth have fallen out.  Unless there's a policy that says Zalanthan humans always look older than Earth humans and spring from the cradle directly to a weathered and mature exterior, there's going to be a period where they look like children, and most 13-15 year olds I've met fit the bill.

Your sisters are weird.    I had puffy "mosquito bite" boobs by the time I was 10 or 11.  I got my period when I was 11 1/2.  And baby teeth at 13?  I'm pretty sure all mine were gone years before that.  I've never known teenagers that were still teething (except for wisdom teeth that come in a few years later, but they are additional teeth, not replacement teeth.)  It is within the range of normal for a girl to not get her period (and noticeable secondary sex characteristics) as late as 15, but I think 13 is usually the average.

To adults (say, over 21) adolescents look like children, but to children (say, under 9) adolescents look a lot like adults.  They are in-between, they have characteristics of both children and adults.



Personally I'd prefer that boy and girl were allowed (but then I'd like for urchin and whelp to be allowed too).  Everyone knows that the minimum starting age is 13 (or racial equiv lent) so we know that a PC boy or girl isn't a little boy or little girl.  But apparently there have been problems in the past with people using descriptions that could apply to either children or adolescents, and then having those characters act like small children rather than acting like adolescent.  

And sometimes the false children get into adult situations, and you get issues of child abuse and pedophilia -- things that may be a normal part of Zalanthan life but that many Earthlings don't want to deal directly with in a game setting.  Plenty of people aren't entirely comfortable with 13 or 14 year old characters having sexual relationships with characters in their 30s, if that 13 year old acts like they are 7 or 8 it gets much worse.  The culture shock is just too severe, it is too alien, and it is difficult for players to come up with realistic and appropriate responses to situations like that.


So even though I like starting my characters young, I can see why children may not be allowed.  But if kids aren't allowed, lass and lad should be off the list too.

[Sanvean]

Are some of these guidelines new?

Yes.  As noted in the initial post:

These are the revised guidelines that the application reviewers will be using.

As extensively discussed here, this is an attempt to list and standardize the criteria different reviewers have been using, for a variety of reasons.

[LauraMars]

Your sisters are weird.    I had puffy "mosquito bite" boobs by the time I was 10 or 11.  I got my period when I was 11 1/2.  And baby teeth at 13?  I'm pretty sure all mine were gone years before that.  I've never known teenagers that were still teething (except for wisdom teeth that come in a few years later, but they are additional teeth, not replacement teeth.)  It is within the range of normal for a girl to not get her period (and noticeable secondary sex characteristics) as late as 15, but I think 13 is usually the average.

To adults (say, over 21) adolescents look like children, but to children (say, under 9) adolescents look a lot like adults.  They are in-between, they have characteristics of both children and adults.

We are all late bloomers in my family, and people still have mistaken me for a much younger person even now.  The point is, there's no use trying to pin down the exact moment people transition from looking like a child to looking like an adult since its different for everyone, and yes, perception is a big deal...however, that's a bit difficult to regulate in a text game.  

Maybe we could make an elaborate script where anybody older than the target PC sees "girl" when she's in her teens and anybody younger than her sees "young woman" or something, but I think that's going a little far, haha.

[Cuusardo]

I don't particularly like the fact that subjective words are allowed.  I have an intense aversion to having opinions forced upon me, due to the fact that everyone's personal tastes vary.   Beauty/ugly is in the eye of the beholder!  I still can't believe that a PC with comely in its sdesc got approved.  That drove me batty!  My PC did not find this supposedly comely PC attractive at all.

Example: Don't tell me "He has a handsome face."  I want to know WHY he is supposed to be attractive.  What if he has soft, feminine features?  Not everyone finds that sort of look handsome.  My PC may well find rugged, stubbly features attractive.

Another example:  Don't tell me "She has an ugly face."  Tell me instead what makes her so ugly.  Is her skin covered in pockmarks?  If so, perhaps my PC would see past that and find her face pleasing for other reasons.

And this goes doubly for races.  Most often I've noticed that the PCs with subjective adjectives in their descriptions are human.  I'm sorry, but my dwarf isn't going to find your svelte human with luxurious hair attractive in the slightest.  My elf isn't going to find your plump human with full lips attractive.  My halfling hates you all and thinks you're more attractive roasting on a spit.

[Pantoufle]

Am I the only who finds lad and lass terribly jarring?

You're not alone.  Lass and lad strike me as slang and, frankly, I would find it far easier to envision 'boy' or 'girl' than lass or lad (besides which they mean the same thing yet, oddly, boy and girl are not allowed).  Lad is something I would use in speech, as in "Hello young lad, how are you today?"  Not in formal writing.  The same goes with lass.  I find the ban on boy/girl keywords disheartening insomuch as they are the best means of expressing a maturing adolescent without having to rely on awkwardly long sdescs, as lauramars pointed out.

I find the lanky adolescent elven male far less appealing to the eyes of a reader than the lanky elven boy.  Moreover, many novels I have read refer to a 'youth' as someone younger than 13.  Someone very very young.  Boy/girl does not = toddler, ladies and germs.

Has anyone seen the movie Master and Commander?  Do you remember the BOYS on the ship?  They weren't treated as little children, they had a rough job to do.  But they were limited in their career path due to their age.  They were far from mature.  They were, quite frankly, boys.

Lastly, it isn't the ban on boy/girl keywords that frustrates so much as is the accepted alternatives, some of which contradict rejecting boy/girl given that they are synonyms.  If someone is pretending to be a child by using boy/girl keywords, then they should be dealt with individually, in my opinion.  Because a 13 year old sure as heck ain't no adult!  They're barely a teen for that matter.  With respect, if you're connoting boy and girl with children but not the slang, informal words lass or lad, then I'm afraid you aren't fully grasping the definitions of these words.  Boy and girl means not fully developed, it does not mean toddler or child per se.  While boy and girl CAN be used to describe children, so to can adult be used to describe anyone from an 18 to 89 years old.  It's about a range of ages.  I've seen men in their late 20's referred to as boys by their elders for that matter.

[Ghost]

Laura spoke out my thoughts clearly actually.  I would much rather like to have boy/girl allowed.  Teen, youth are not gender specific.  Young man/woman take about one third of your allowed characters in the sdesc, and a 13-15 year old are not young man or woman if you ask me.  I could put 18-23 in the young man and woman category.

Am I the only who finds lad and lass terribly jarring?

No you are not the only one.

[jcarter]

oh so we can't use dickens-whelp

wtf is hitler in charge now or something thanks a lot sanvean you just ruined all of my char concepts

[Eternal]

you just ruined all of my char concepts

Might I suggest not basing a character concept around a certain combination of words in a sdesc?  Most well-developed characters could have a seemingly limitless supply of features suited for a sdesc, at least some of which should come naturally to the creative player.

Lord Templar Hard Nose shakes his head in sorrow.

P.S. - I like the new changes, agree with Barzalene about lad and lass, but everyone is going to have an issue or two with any new set of guidelines.  Good work!

[jcarter]

you just ruined all of my char concepts

Might I suggest not basing a character concept around a certain combination of words in a sdesc?  Most well-developed characters could have a seemingly limitless supply of features suited for a sdesc, at least some of which should come naturally to the creative player.

Lord Templar Hard Nose shakes his head in sorrow.

P.S. - I like the new changes, agree with Barzalene about lad and lass, but everyone is going to have an issue or two with any new set of guidelines.  Good work!

Haha, I was being facetious

[Eternal]

Hard to tell anymore.   :wink:   Still, good to have up there for new players, I guess.

[Bebop]

NO DRIZZT?!?!111

[jhunter]

The only disagreement I have with any of it at all is that one cannot use "breed". That to me seems just as acceptable as any of the others that are listed as acceptable. With that exception, I agree completely with the rest of it.

breed
n.
A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation.
A kind; a sort: a new breed of politician; a new breed of computer.
Offensive.. A person of mixed racial descent; a half-breed.

[Zhaira]

I'm not particularly fond of lad or lass either, but the real place I wanted to weigh in on was on the banning of 'boy' and 'girl'.

We have 35 characters with which to make an sdesc, and as we all know, the longer your sdesc is, the less creative you can be using change ldesc.

'girl' is 4 characters, whereas the closest non-jarring synonym is 'young woman' -- 11.  That leaves you with, really, only 24 to work with.  20 if you count 'the'.  That's not a lot of room for creativity, unfortunately.

That's *my* beef with it, anyway.

[Sokotra]

I'm sure the Imm's are tired of hearing complaints about this "girl, boy" thing after they've already made their decision, but oh well...

I hate it.  It seems to just remove some of the 'good' variety of the game.
While I understand if you don't want some character 40 yrs old using the word "girl" or "boy" in their sdesc, I still think you can put a limit somewhere like maybe mid-20's depending on the main desc and personality of the character.  

Players are allowed to make up keywords on the fly, yet are not being trusted to use "girl" or "boy" where they see fit?  Doesn't seem to make sense to me.   Why can't you just deny apps the same way you probably would if someone put "teen" or "lass" for their 50 yr old half-giant?  Heh.

Sorry, no offense, this all just seems silly to me.

The halfbreed thing irritates me also.  I can't remember if it was just "breed" or "halfbreed" also.. but I don't see any problem with that either, for basically the same reasons as above... i.e. it would have to be used to make some sort of sense for the character or fall within certain guidelines.  

Really... can't we trust the players for something as minor as that.  I'm not saying don't punish the ones that try to abuse that trust - but that goes for everything else as well.  Why not this?  Just seems ridiculous... don't know what else to say... please reconsider.

-  Boggled

[Satansfish]

I can live without seeing another 'boy' PC running around giggling. I can do this easily. Given, though, that all of the alternative descriptors for the age frame are much longer, maybe the char length for an sdesc could be bumped to 42 or so? I definately dont want those long, sucky ass sdescs you get on them other muds, but 42 is still reasonably short...
And it'd let me play...

the tousle-haired, mahogany dickens-whelp

Wait, no dickens-whelp?! Curse you!

[Nao]

There are disadvantages to boy and girl, but I don't see any alternatives for a 13-year old.

13-year olds tend to look like children, exspecially when they're badly nourished. I wouldn't call them lad or lass, since those seem to be much older than 13, besides, I absolutely hate those words.
Teen and youth are too sexless - sure, you could put male or female in, but that takes up too many characters to leave room for much of anything else.
Same goes for young man or young woman - a 13-year old isn't the picture I get from young woman. Then there is also the character thing....

[Vessol]

I hate to say it, but it seems as of late a lot of charactors that go against these guidelines have been popping up. Oh well, it is the imms who approve them, and I am sure they have their reasons.

[Ghost]

I hate to say it, but it seems as of late a lot of charactors that go against these guidelines have been popping up. Oh well, it is the imms who approve them, and I am sure they have their reasons.

The policy is put there recently.  It might be that they already had their characters before.  From now on, I think you would not see one approved (considering this is the staff policy)