Bring me the Gith! More Gith!

[Barzalene]

Lately in IRC there's been some complaining about how easy it is to turn a profit as an indy (course maybe this is the same complaing that always comes up about indies.)

I have always thought that the great risks should reap the great rewards. I don't think we should be looking at whether it's too easy to make a profit, but is it too easy to make the trip?

I've been away for over a year, and the one pc I've had since being back who went far enough from a city not to be able to see it any more, died to something big and vicious within about a minute and a half.

So, my question is, do people feel like we need more dangers on the road? Does anyone have any ideas for interesting dangers? Is this something the staff is interested in looking at? Or next time I hear complaining should I just go read a book?

[Gaare]

Actually, I  believe it is really difficult to play an indep hunter/ranger/crafter.. especially in south.

Some random idea for dangers.

- (Halaster mentioned it once) Longer roads with adding new rooms.

- (Sanvean mentioned it once) Randomly strucking lightnings while in storm.

- More moving beasts in packs... i.e. Leaving their lair, making a tour (hunt) around some area and return.

- Randomly falling stones to roads below from cliffs in strong winds.

- Road closes due to heavy storms, rocks, etc.. which does not open until some group works on removing them.

- Lowering the number of raw material sellers.. Or limiting the number of pieces(bone, hide, rock, etc.) they sell.

- A raider clan (actually a couple of currently open elf tribes are not bad, but.. well..)supported by IMMs which is open a few months for each year.

- Placing obsidian/salt/wood to somewhere a little more far to cities.

Edited to add.

[Eternal]

Gith player options would also be great.  Honestly, I've always wanted to try that, even moreso than anklebiting halflings (you don't want to know where the stoop on a gith makes them bite).

Lord Templar Hard Nose gives Barzalene a big two slaves up.

[LoD]

Some random idea for dangers.

<bunch of fine environmental ideas>

I've always been of the opinion that intelligent players should be the most dangerous opposition encountered on commonly travelled roads/paths.  If you're in the middle BFE, somewhere miles and miles away from a major civilization, then I don't mind being eaten by an NPC monster.

Introducing NPC's as a significant threat to the playerbase in these areas is unfortunate, especially "packs" of things for which the code favors the quick fingered.  What RP is to be had at the end of a volley of gith spears, or the jaws of 5 raptors?  I'm not saying NPC threats shouldn't exist, but they should exist primarily for representation and atmosphere rather than a dominant predator.

If you feel that independant crafters/hunters/travellers are making money too easily, then my suggestion is to do something about it.  Harass them.  Raid them.  Manipulate them.  Intimidate them.  The disadvantage to being independant is that you often don't have a political entity protecting you.  Someone who views you with disfavor might stay their hand if they know the consequences of killing you are dealing with the rest of your powerful friends.

Money promotes interaction and trickles down through the playerbase in the way of bribes, wages, purchased items, information, and services.  By all means, raid the crap out of those indies and exploit the crap out of the fact that they might not have anyone watching over them while they rake in the 'sid hand over fist.  That will at least create a story worth reading as compared to four lines of mindless text that describe the flight of four gith spears striking one's body.  How would anyone view that chapter?

Trejan trudged through the burning wastes, his throat thick and swollen from the merciless glare of the sun overhead.  Bone buckles and leather srtaps pulled at his flesh, a heavy pack laiden with wood, sagged upon his back and weakened him with every step.  Yet therein lay his strength; the promise of profit.  This wood fetched a high price in the southern markets, a prospect well known to those willing to brave these torturous lands.  High above, the shriek of a bird of prey pierced the silence like a razor drug across the flesh.

Trejan paused, falling to one knee as his thick fingers fumbled for the waterskin strung from his belt.  With a trrembling hand, he removed the wax stopper and lifted the lid greedily to his lips.  A throaty chuckle escaped his lips as his thoughts drifted to the well stocked taverns of the southlands, the sweet wine, plentiful food and soft bodies of the women who held him close and loved him for the press of black coin in their palm,  And then there was Nifu; a waif of a man responsible for filching a quarter share of his paysack last trip.  Trejan had arranged everything and gurgled in mirth as he entertained the slow and expensive justice he'd arranged for his old friend.  Soon, he would be...

A bone-tipped spear flies in from the east, striking Trejan's head.
A bone-tipped spear flies in from the east, striking Trejan's neck.
A bone-tipped spear flies in from the east, striking Trejan's body.
A bone-tipped spear flies in from the east, striking Trejan's leg.

Trejan crumples to the ground.
Trejan cries out in pain.

Crap.

-LoD

[Hymwen]

I was personally surprised at how little danger there is in most places and how easily it is avoided. With a few exceptions such as hidden badguys, the only times I ever got in danger was if I wasn't looking where I went, or if the lack of diagonal view made me walk too close to some bully (which was then relatively easy to run away from). I'm not saying that there's no danger out there, but the combination of a fast connection and the fact that all the truly dangerous animals are killed almost immediately after reboot and don't re-spawn meant that I practically never ran into danger unless I was actively looking for it.

However I'd hate to have my life depend on something as random as lightning strikes and falling boulders.

[Cuusardo]

I personally like the idea of more raiders.  Indies usually don't travel with an entourage, and therefore just as soon be trekking through the wastes with targets on their bodies.  Elves and gith especially I think would jump at the chance.

p.s. I've had the whole gith experience myself, and I loved every minute of it.  More gith!

[Pantoufle]

In my opinion, it's only easy for people who know what they're doing.  If you start incorporating even more difficulties (beyond the OOCly restricting sandstorm code), you're only going to assist in detering new players from joining.  Most new players want to see at least a smidgen of the game world right from the start, rather than jump into a constraining clan in a world they do not yet understand anything about.  While this isn't meant to imply the game world should be easy by any means, it certainly doesn't mean we need to make it harder!  It was once so easy to make money that I could earn 1,000+ obsidian coins every reboot in the Northlands (pre-New Tuluk) without ever even leaving!  This has long since changed.  I think there have been enough tweaks to NPC merchants such that even a well versed independant is going to find that most of his/her hard earned obsidian coins will be exhausted on food, water, and hunting supplies (do you know how much it costs to keep your quiver full!?)

And, as you, yourself, have stated, Barzalene, great risks should reap great reward.  All it takes is one nasty carru to bash an experienced rider off his kank right when he least expects it, and there goes all his hard earned efforts down the drain.  Those who choose to ride into the wilderness unattended are, essentially, a death waiting to happen, for sooner or later their luck will catch up with them -- it always does -- so let them earn heaploads while they can.

On a different note, perhaps the difficulties needn't be making even more meaner and nastier monsters with which to encounter, but simply elevating the danger level of the cities.  If you're going back and forth between Tuluk and Allanak selling wood, maybe you'll gain the attention of a templar in a bad mood who decides he's none too pleased with what you're doing.  I think that should be just as much of a danger as any pack of gortok or band of gith.

[Barzalene]

On a different note, perhaps the difficulties needn't be making even more meaner and nastier monsters with which to encounter, but simply elevating the danger level of the cities.  If you're going back and forth between Tuluk and Allanak selling wood, maybe you'll gain the attention of a templar in a bad mood who decides he's none too pleased with what you're doing.  I think that should be just as much of a danger as any pack of gortok or band of gith.

I really like this idea.

[spawnloser]

Okay, but why would a Nakki Templar really care that you're bringing in a rarer resource?  Wouldn't he like that?  I think Templars, in this sort of instance, should fall under the category of raiders.

[LoD]

Okay, but why would a Nakki Templar really care that you're bringing in a rarer resource?  Wouldn't he like that?  I think Templars, in this sort of instance, should fall under the category of raiders.

I don't know that the templar would care in an "angry" way as much as see the independant as a living, breathing sack of free coins.

Problems with Demanding Money from Merchant Houses Agents

I am levying a tax of 20% on your account, you will pay this to the city immediately.

Junior Agent -> Senior Agent -> Advsior -> Senior Family Member -> Red Robe he Knows -> Bad Bad Blue Templar.

Problems with Demanding Money from an Indie

I am levying a tax of 20% on your account, you will pay this to the city immediately.

Independant -> DOH! -> Beg -> Cry -> Hand Over Money.

Independants likely don't have political backing, protection, or a real means to offer you a great deal of harm.  They might have loose ties to some organizations for some work they've done, but nothing that a Great Merchant House is going to go through the trouble of wasting a favor on a political ally over.

If IC life was made a bit more difficult for independants in this fashion, then House affiliations might start to become more apparent.  Now, I'm not advocating or suggesting that every templar, noble or person of authority start giving independants trouble just because they are independant, but if someone unaffiliated is sitting in the bar dressed head to toe in silks living the fat life, might not hurt to remind them of what it costs to live in a civilized world.

-LoD

[Eternal]

LoD and I are in sync today...

Templars shouldn't really be the immediate physical threat to an independant merchant that gith or mekillots are, but should be feared nonetheless... especially if the indie is importing goods from his home country to the templar's.  They should really cut down on the profitability of such enterprises, even if the northern wood-seller has a merchant's token he's still subject to taxation  and greatly moreso than the local stonecarver... the local wood-seller who makes the perilous journey north and back... well, he's probably subject to an import fee as well, though less than the carpetbagger.

Templars can also extract a lot more than goods or coins from people who move between the city-states.  If a major event has just occurred, you should very well expect to be interrogated about anything and everything that may be useful knowledge to the templar... North or South.  This is also my feelings on bards who move to ply their trade... coins are fleeting and few independants are worth the time compared to other forms of wealth available, but leverage, potential spies and the knowlege they may impart are priceless (well, life is cheap).

Bottom line, bribes are good, don't hedge on the taxes, and follow the law... also, keeping an ear out for a good tidbit of rumors in your travels can insure a good relationship with the templars you encounter and potentially lessen a major threat to your burgeoning mercantile pursuits.

Lord Templar Hard Nose says to the northern trader, in sirihish:
"And if you see one of the Jihaen order, please offer them this drink, prized in all our lands... but let's keep the origin between us, understand?"

[spawnloser]

Actually, LoD, that was the point I was trying to make.  I don't think the Templar should be a 'danger' in the way it seemed to be originally presented.  They should simply be a danger to the pocketbook for the indies.  Perhaps it is simply the subjective qualities of the term 'danger' that was causing this misunderstanding?

[Majikal]

Raptor                                                             (General)

  While a little smaller than a human, these quick two-legged desert
predators have a wicked reputation. They hunt with relative intelligence,
sometimes alone but often in small groups of five or less, often taking down
prey larger than themselves. A common ploy is to hide in the rocks or dunes
above, after using their sense of smell to track their prey -- then leap
down upon the unsuspecting victim. They are, however, extremely fast over
short distances, and have been known to chase down kanks over the first
hundred cords.

I would love to see raptors actually hunting in packs.. maybe not five cause they'd definately take the new lead position of a newb eater, but maybe two or three depending. This would make alot of land less traveled by the inexperienced. Maybe some more dangerous stuff stalking near roads. Raiding tribes should step it up a notch too, give people a reason to hire escorts.

[Pantoufle]

Okay, but why would a Nakki Templar really care that you're bringing in a rarer resource? Wouldn't he like that? I think Templars, in this sort of instance, should fall under the category of raiders.

Because Allanak already has people to bring in rare resources: the Merchant Houses, not some second rate amateur who is attempting to impede upon his/her betters with wealth outranking his status within the social hierarchy (this concept applies to Tuluk as much as it does Allanak).  

The wealth of nobility in both city-states, followed closely by the merchant houses, is at the expense and the misery of thousands of commoners.  Evenly distribute the wealth and you have a just and equal system where people can demand reasonable things, like living wages!  It's very easy for us to forget that the bulk of the city-states comprise of abject poverty because most of us are not playing these sorts of roles.  In truth, more people are suffering and miserable than is visible to the player's eye.  The nobility want to keep the common beneath them and their police force, the templarate, would, realistically, be monitoring this with an iron fist.  If you start showing up looking questionably well-to-do all from gallavanting about the Known World selling trinkets, you should expect the templars to pose a worse danger than a pack of gortok.  The reason is quite simple, you're potentially violating social norms.

That said, the volume of obsidian coins which is considered out of proportion for a commoner should be addressed.  Quite honestly, I don't find that having even 10,000 obsidian coins is unreasonable.  Think what it buys you: a few knots of spice, some ale, a couple of standard outfits, a finite amount of installments on rent in an apartment and before you know it, more than half of your money is gone!  Add a few bribes to that and you're entirely spent.  So the real question may be, how much is "a lot"?  The difference, in my view, lies not so much in the number, as it does in the appearance.  I knew a 'Rinth elf once who had 30,000 coins, but he wore the same outfit his entire life: a set of rags.

[Intrepid]

I'm more fascinated with the idea of mantis pcs myself.  Gith are still numerous, but mantis seem to have concentrated into small groups or even disappeared outside of a few locations.

I also think that the altered lifespan and insectoid physiology make for some unique roleplay.

[Yokunama]

Lately in IRC there's been some complaining about how easy it is to turn a profit as an indy (course maybe this is the same complaing that always comes up about indies.)

As players become more experienced and acquire more knowledge of the game, the dangers of the world tend to seem less dangerous. More windows of light open up to the players' eyes, making things seem a lot easier for them as well. The players' memory is filled with the hottest spots to make profits, where to go to for supplies, and so on.

If we were to twink everything here and there, making is a bit harder, after a year or so, this same discussion will come up before our very eyes. Also, it will make things much harder for the newbies who are very ignorant of the dangers and the secrets that lie within the world of Zalanthas. After years of playing, there are still some things that I do not understand about the world. Think about how difficult it would be for a newbie.

Theres really no need for coded difficulties. If you want the world to become more dangerous, form an organized raider group and camp near the roads, become a magicker or sorcerer and make fireballs and lightning rain down from the sky, or play a halfling and eat everyone for breakfast.

So, I am very much against making things more difficult, unless the players had control over it with the current options available to them.

Thats my two 'sids.

[Forty Winks]

As the sentiment seems to run, I'll agree that having more intelligent problems from sentient creatures, rather than mobs of NPCs, would solve the problem better than anything else, currently. In a previous thread awhile ago, reasons were given for not opening the mantis culture to PCs (mainly because it would be focused entirely upon pkilling and not enough documentation for roleplay), but I really like the idea of opening up the gith, even if it's a special app role. There's alot more potential for d-elf vs. gith roleplay, as well as clans and indies that encounter them.

[Cyrian20]

I'm more fascinated with the idea of mantis pcs myself.  Gith are still numerous, but mantis seem to have concentrated into small groups or even disappeared outside of a few locations.

I also think that the altered lifespan and insectoid physiology make for some unique roleplay.

Only if we have a gith, halfer, mantis war... televised.

As for Gith vs. D-elf roleplay, I would love to see it, but the uber spam npc's would need to be lowered to really allow any sort of none spammy combat rp.

[spawnloser]

So...the Templars, who generally care more about themselves, are really going to kill off an indie instead of look out after their own interests by simply taking a big stack of cash instead, Pantoufle?

[Intrepid]

Only if we have a gith, halfer, mantis war... televised.

That's a good point: You never see anything about a massive gith/mantis war.  These races always seem to hunt humans and elves instead.

As the sentiment seems to run, I'll agree that having more intelligent problems from sentient creatures, rather than mobs of NPCs, would solve the problem better than anything else, currently. In a previous thread awhile ago, reasons were given for not opening the mantis culture to PCs (mainly because it would be focused entirely upon pkilling and not enough documentation for roleplay), but I really like the idea of opening up the gith, even if it's a special app role. There's alot more potential for d-elf vs. gith roleplay, as well as clans and indies that encounter them.

Wait a minute...gith were considered less pk than mantis?!?  :shock:

I find that hard to believe, knowing the race they're based off of in D&D.

[spawnloser]

Thri-kreen in Dark Sun were much more playable than Mantis, which are based off of them, in Armageddon.  Yeah, it'd be interesting to have them, but from what I understand, Mantis are not individuals...and it would be insanely difficult for anyone to get past that when trying to roleplay them.  Halflings are hard enough to wrap your noodle around, but at least are individuals and understand that seperation.  Gith are more like humans and elves and the lot than mantis.  They're like orcs, aggressive and militaristic, but still think in ways not dissimilar to us.

Editted to add some clarification.

[Anonymous]

I think the big issues with Indys is that they were unaffected by the timechange code from a year or two back.  When paydays got moved from a 'about once a week' affair to a set bi-weekly schedule it essentially halved the income of a clan members while indy's were not impacted.

[Forty Winks]

Only if we have a gith, halfer, mantis war... televised.

That's a good point: You never see anything about a massive gith/mantis war.  These races always seem to hunt humans and elves instead.

As the sentiment seems to run, I'll agree that having more intelligent problems from sentient creatures, rather than mobs of NPCs, would solve the problem better than anything else, currently. In a previous thread awhile ago, reasons were given for not opening the mantis culture to PCs (mainly because it would be focused entirely upon pkilling and not enough documentation for roleplay), but I really like the idea of opening up the gith, even if it's a special app role. There's alot more potential for d-elf vs. gith roleplay, as well as clans and indies that encounter them.

Wait a minute...gith were considered less pk than mantis?!?  :shock:

I find that hard to believe, knowing the race they're based off of in D&D.

Yeah, gith have as much potential for pking as mantis, but from a past post by the imms I believe, the gith have a better documentation and culture than the mantis, and are thus easier to roleplay. At least that's from my memory, which isn't always the greatest.  :wink:  In any case, I prefer gith over mantis, personally.  :lol:

Yeah, gith have as much potential for pking as mantis, but from a past post by the imms, I believe the gith have a better set up documentation for roleplay than the mantis. Seems mantis are harder to RP well.

[Angela Christine]

I agree with Templars skimming coins from independents, as long as it is kept reasonable.  Sometimes players go overboard.  The government wants to control wealth, not discourage it.  If the "taxes" and fines are too heavy, they discourage trade, which means less money in the long run.  

It is better to snag a couple hundred coins from a mark every few weeks than to score a thousand coins all at once and never see that mark again.


Templars and raiders can make travel less profitable, but if they make it so that travel is no longer profitable at all then they they cut thier own throats.

[Anonymous]

Templars and raiders can make travel less profitable, but if they make it so that travel is no longer profitable at all then they they cut thier own throats.

That is really well-put.

However, on the flipside the reality for the raider is that leaving anyone alive often ensures that there will be a city-wide mobilization of bored guards and hunters who will happily chase you from one end of the known world to the other because you took some people's daggers.

[Testing]

First off my comments here are colored by the fact that I think Indys should drive the game (no pun intended...  Indy, drive?  Nevermind.).  Don't get me wrong, I think Houses are a necessity, (and indeed almost every character I've had has been sucked into a House of one kind or another at some point) but I think Indys are considerably more important and should have more of an impact than they do.

An independent merchant making a go of it -should- make more money than one who is low on the so-called corporate ladder.  A merchant house should skim enough of a merchant's wages that they make less than they would on their own.  The trade off?  Virtually no risk.  You travel in caravans protected by expensive guards and people seek you out looking for your goods rather than the other way around.  Indys assume all the risk and keep all the profit.

As for there not being enough danger on the road, that's just plain wrong.  It would be silly and frustrating to have there be some catastrophic encounter every time you're trying to make a trip up the north road.  Remember that if you're travelling in a lovely wagon filled with sweaty guards, you have no appreciation whatsoever for how dangerous the road really is.  It doesn't matter if you don't get attacked every time you walk the road, what matters is that every trip you risk getting surprised, and one surprise could be your last surprise.  Take your life into your hands every time you travel, more profits.

For those of you who don't think that threat exists now, you're dead wrong.  In fact, the threat from PCs is progressing towards the ridiculous.  About every other trip out into the wastes now a hunter can find himself accosted by disembodied voices.  Each and every NPC creature in the game is capable of killing you if things go wrong.  You might go out and not find anything of value.  You could get lost looking through a new area, have your mount get too tired to keep going, get attacked and not have it in you to fight or flee (and I question the legitimacy of anyone who has not died this way at one point or another).  The point is, there are a million things that can and do go wrong every trip out, so every trip out is intense.

And finally, Indys should make more money because being an Indy is expensive.  If you're in a House, much of this stuff is either provided or unnecessary due to the huge amount of support you have.  Decent mount: 450 sids (needs to be replaced periodically due to theft, pits, etc).  Portable Tent: 1500 sids.  Respectable armor: 1000 sids.  Special bow from Salarr: 2000 sids.  Water: 100 sids a week.  Apartment to store your stuff so that you can actually fight: 250 sids a month.  Replacing the stuff in your apartment after it's robbed: 2500 sids.  Earning respect and sids as an Indy instead of wimping out and joining a House: priceless.  There are some things sids can't buy, for everything else, there's Armageddon.

Ok seriously, I'm not dumping on people in a House or Clan.  I've played characters belonging to each of the three major merchant houses and several noble houses.  Yeah, my Indy characters make more money, but it's far, far harder.  Remember finally that the objective of this game really isn't to accrue sids: it's involvement, interaction, and impact on the story.  If you belong to a Clan, congratulations, you're involved!  If you're a lone wolf, you're only involved if you're good.  Really good.

Ok, last point: the PCs in Arm are not meant to be the common rabble.  They represent the exceptional or unusual elements in the population, the people with the potential to rise above the squallor somehow and succeed.  This goes for the Indy player and the Clanned player.  If this is impossible or unreasonably difficult to do without belonging to a large, Imm-moderated group to essentially spoon feed involvement of some sort then that is a pitiable situation, because we have forfeited the importance of the player.  I don't believe that we have, I think the balance right now is very, very good.  I still honestly believe that, though supremely difficult, a ranger can go out and find Steinal or an independent merchant can claw his way to wealth and found his own House or a burglar can make the big score.

Yikes, I talked to much.  In the end, all that I'm saying is give Indys a chance.  They face an uphill fight in every respect already, and I promise you that you don't want them to disappear.

[Cuusardo]

I played an indy once that travelled from Allanak to Luir's several times, and went out to forage and mine obsidian quite often.  I ran into danger a grand total of two times, and one of those times was after that PC joined a clan.  I was very disappointed with how quick and easy the ride to Luir's generally was, and how rarely I ever ran into anything (or anyone) while out foraging or mining.

[Marauder Moe]

I remember in older times we had the opposite problem.  Around Allanak at least, you were almost garaunteed to run into something while traveling.  It was popularly considered suicide to travel with less than 4 people.  It was toned down a lot a few years ago and I think the fact that only recently people started to complain about how sparse the NPC dangers are indicates it was probably a good change overall.

[Hot_Dancer]

I looooove those indies. Love them.

In an isolated area an Indy character is a plot-line in his/her own right.

Instantly. Do they harass it? Raid it? Is it worthwhile to keep around? Can it bring the tribe stuff? Can we use it to raid/kill stuff? Can we raid/kill stuff for it?

Is it dangerous? Is it going to try to raid/kill us?

Hot Dancer

[Barzalene]

I'm really glad I asked. I like the thought that you don't have to hit danger every time for something to be dangerous. I think it's a great point. My pc may amass a nice sum of  coins, but the gith that finally kill him may be the ones who get to spend it.

[Fnord]

How many long-lived indies do you really see? I don't see many, so that suggests something is picking them off.

[rufus]

Code Select Expand

>wish all Hello, my independent so-and-so is about to make a trip from Allanak to Tuluk, could you please set up a raid?  Thank you.

good idea ---^

[Tisiphone]

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...
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Well, you get the idea.

Maybe 'tis me. Maybe I'm just horribly, horribly unlucky.
But.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY CHARACTERS, with the exception of my sole 'rinth rat, HAS DIED TO NPCS ON THE ROAD.

People with extremely interesting lives. People who had plots revolving around them, including at least a couple with staff, I'm pretty sure, interested.

I obviously can't give details, but...when I hear you people asking for MORE DANGER, I WANT TO SCREAM.