Disgruntled Newbie

[Anonymous]

Take a peek at this:

http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/reviews/robboard.cgi?action=display&num=8212

Anyways might be nice if some of our more gifted writers might write a good review or two for the game... and for the love of whatever god you believe in please don't flame or say anything negative about that person. You'll hurt the game if you come out writing a review thats self righteous unsympatetic to others.

[Beux]

Haha. Isn't that the same guy who made a thread making a big deal of why he was leaving. I'm sure it was all over stats. Maybe he didn't get the whole ordering stats thing.  :roll:

Whinger.

Looks like there's plenty of good reviews up there already, doubt one pessamistic ex-player will turn away any new players. Most mudders will recognise that kind of review as the opinion of someone grumpy who didn't get what they want - every mud has them.

[Majikal]

Here's what the fella posted if people were curious.

Armageddon MUD by veryalien
I tried Armageddon MUD for a couple of weeks and left feeling the game could be much improved if the developers spent more time balancing it and making it more focused.

Armageddon MUD lacks focus with character development. Most characters you can create from the get go are very canned. A fixed guild/subguild selection along with randomly rolled stats earns you a character who may or may not be aligned with your character concept. If you want to make a burly thug you'll find that rolling low on strength quickly makes for an awkward clumsy character.

The other downside is the seemingly schizophrenic focus the game has. You're told not to powergame or min/max your character and focus on roleplaying; however almost all the players except for a handful spend their time farming mobs and killing players indiscrimanetly. The party line towed by the playerbase is that the game is "harsh." Really, most of the systems in place are there to promote player griefing under the guise of "roleplaying" (e.g. desert elves who are encouraged to swindle players and make their lives miserable).

Support-wise the developers don't care much beyond their plots that involve the same 10-20 players who have been playing there for years. Caveat emptor: most players are just part of the landscape.

If you can put up with a lot of stress the game might be worth trying but it's not as fun as the other RPI muds out there.

In his time here, he only posted once.. as a guest. His history screams of a first character with bad stats.

i'm leaving. "reroll self" is just too weak a character customization tool. this game would be perfect if you spent a pool of points on your attributes and skills.

[Beux]

In his time here, he only posted once.. as a guest. His history screams of a first character with bad stats.

Wow. My first char here had AWFUL stats. Like really...to the point that when I got my first 'good' stat...I was like WOW. GOOD? That's AMAZING.

Stats are so the last thing you need to worry about when you join Arm. People like that are so silly.

[Akaramu]

To me, it sounds like he did not understand why desert elves are not 'using roleplay as an excuse' when they are 'mean' to hunters. Also, using 'farming' as a term in a RPI mud, and not related to growing crops, kinda rings an alarm bell.

Farming critters = so hack&slash.

/me sometimes wonders if new players should be limited to a city bound character as their first Arm experience.

[Hot_Dancer]

Someone should've told him that it typically takes more than a couple weeks of play for a character to shine in the skill category..

His complaints are pretty typical but regularly in line with what I hear when I attempt to bring friends over from another RPI.

Character customization is pretty big in the roleplay world, it's something there is always going to be push for. Though, somehow the 'customization' options in other RPI's are better, he says. In my opinion the only reason they make due without balance issues is that they lack powerful skills and their stats have much less of an impact on the gameplay.

I think this type of player would've had a better time and chance to experience Armageddon's strengths if they were introduced into a clanned environment like one of the merchant houses or the Byn, rather than (possibly) trying something like the 'rinth as a new player.

Hot Dancer

[Majikal]

I think this type of player would've had a better time and chance to experience Armageddon's strengths if they were introduced into a clanned environment like one of the merchant houses or the Byn, rather than (possibly) trying something like the 'rinth as a new player.

Very very true. My first character ever was a rinther.. while learning the commands I was attacked by an npc cause my gear was shiny. I beleived it was an pc and was soo mad at the game. My second character was a pickpocket.. and died twice in the first 2 hours of existence. Luckily, my friend told me the game got alot better once I got past the learning curve and here I am, completely addicted to this game. My third character was a tenneshi guard I beleive and it was what got me hooked on this game.

[Dresan]

Some of those accusations on the imms seem pretty harsh though.

I remember my fouth PC had a special flute item that i decided to submit to have it and have it made for him. It was the first time attempting to create an item so i even had 'special' writings on it. I believe it was Sanvean who took the time to help me and through the course of several email i ended finish having a good desc for a flute, the writting was gone but we decided on a rune symbol on it instead. Unfortunately the PC died within the week but i still have the email with sanvean apologizing for not giving it to him sooner since she thought she had.

Kadius imms were real nice to me and listened to my idea when i was with them. Vanth had just become an imm there i believe too so this was a while ago. When i had to leave due to RL stuff, they were all nice enough to email me back saying bye.

Also i've noticed some of them are attentive to the questions asked in the GDB. I rather not get into detail because i rather not embarrass myself in from of all you anonymous strangers but there is little stuff some of them do that rarely gets notice but it happens.

That said the imms can somtimes get pretty nasty and arrogant on the GDB, ALONG SIDE the players too..passions run high on these boards probably because there are many contadicting views even among the imms. At the end of the day people here are still human though, no matter what race they play most in-game, you got to be patient and understanding with each other.

I find people here are pretty spoiled though, and by people  i mean players and imms in this respect because the code is solid, the item database is huge,the staff is talented, good roleplayers roam the lands, the pplayer base is 3 or 4 times greater then 95%+ of the other muds out there..all in all its usually a bunch of mature people playing the game....on top of everything this game is what close to at 16 year old, it will be two decades old soon enough and its still going strong and getting better in all respects...there is alot to be proud about here.

[Nao]

The problem with this is that it is a very well written bad review - it's believable. I don't think that the player spend a couple of years here from what he said on that other thread (which seemed a lot more immature than that review) but in the review, it sounds believable.

I think someone is definitely trying to make the game look bad here.

[Hexxaex]

however almost all the players except for a handful spend their time farming mobs and killing players indiscrimanetly

If I interpret his post he made before on the GDB correctly, he gave up after his first character.  What proof does he have that "almost all" players powergame and PK to the max if he had never lived long enough to see them?  He's definitely trying to give Armageddon a bad image just because he gave up on his first try.  [/quote]

[Eternal]

It is believable... and well written from the perspective of a disgruntled new player to the game.  I don't feel that it accurately reflects the state or playerbase of our game, but I believe the poster stayed true to his personal experience with us.  It truly saddens the old templar to see something like this, as this is one who did care about roleplay and we could/should have retained.

It sounds like a very OOC perspective clouded his judgement, as well.  Things like

Support-wise the developers don't care much beyond their plots that involve the same 10-20 players who have been playing there for years.

make one wonder where he comes up with that judgement.

Though I do disagree, I hope that our Staff and Players take this for what it truly is, not a random bash of the game, but a true player perspective... even if not in tune with our own perceptions.  Many players -do- come into our game expecting the coded side of things to mesh with the level of roleplay... our unique mix of soft and hard-coded elements makes us just that... unique, and not for everyone.

I am in the camp of tuning characters allows too much opportunity for powergamers, and I'm proud of the fact that as players we have, and can, debate things like this out in the open here on the GDB.  I'm also very proud of our staff who do incredible things for us as players and all without a paycheck.  Think about what we'd be out if we paid even the newer staffers minimum wage... much less Ness, San, or any of the others who formed the original backbone of our game.

Caveat emptor: most players are just part of the landscape.

This is true... and as ArmageddonMUD players, we see it as a good thing.  Not everyone is a hero, not everyone is exceptional... the world's a stage and everyone has their parts.  The Bard's analogy to life works well for us, and we happily play Byn Member #3, not because of his role, but because of who he is.  The deepest character does not need to be "Spartacus", but can be happy being the merchant that sold him his sword or the former slave who scooped his excrement.

I felt this was an honestly written review of a newbie's frustration with a somewhat brief visit to ArmageddonMUD.  He seemed to come to us with expectations of how a game should be run, and we presented otherwise.  I would never apologize for that, our game is not for all and we do not try to emulate others.  I am, however, upset by the apparent fact that he did spend time with what he believed to be powergamers and allowed OOC contact with other players (I can't see any other way for him to have come to the conclusions he did about the staff) to cause him to become jaded towards our immortals.  This metagaming is very bad for new players, and I believe, a key reason for the IC/OOC barrier.

All in all, it was a well-written review and I believe that we should take it to heart.  There are no lessons in success, but one thousand to be learned in failure.  This was not a flame of the game as some disgruntled players have posted as 'reviews' in the past, but rather a well-thought out response.  It gives us a good bit to think about as far as how we address our new players, especially those who come in with expectations from XY Mud and expect us to be similar.

Lord Templar Hard Nose nods solemnly.

[Marauder Moe]

:roll:

I'm telling you people... just let it go.  Ignore him.  

Regardless of his eloquency, his take on the game is obviously skewed by a single (or at most a few) bad experiences and he lacks the open-mindedness to change his mind.

I don't even think anyone should even try and toss out a good review right now as a response.  It would make us look just as close-minded as him.  We'd appear to be blind to our own flaws (even if the ones he pointed our aren't true).  Give it a week maybe, then someone write a nice review.

[LoD]

I am, however, upset by the apparent fact that he did spend time with what he believed to be powergamers and allowed OOC contact with other players (I can't see any other way for him to have come to the conclusions he did about the staff) to cause him to become jaded towards our immortals.

I completely agree with Eternal's entire post, and definitely with this statement.  There's almost no possible way a player new to the game could come to such a specific conclusion about the Armageddon Imms without being approached by one of our less responsible players.  He probably thinks that he was "doing this guy a favor" by departing his jaded view of the gameworld, but it does a great disservice to the many players, Imms, and features of the game that are completely unlike the microcosm described in the review.

The playstyle described is so counter to what, I think, most of us experience on a daily basis that it's a shame this fellow was encouraged not only to believe this was 'common', but that it was 'standard'.  The author of this review is not to blame for the words printed, but rather the player that influenced his opinion with a short-sighted and obviously mean spirited summary of our gameworld.

-LoD

[Fnord]

Here's my review.

http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/reviews/robboard.cgi?action=display&num=8239

Tear it up.  :twisted:

[Jherlen]

I don't think the same person who wrote that review was the person who wrote the messages on the GDB the other day.

The writing style is different, the points of complaint are different, and the guy who wrote the review seems much more mature and level-headed than the guy who was complaining "I got killed as a newbie so I'm leaving!"

But either way, yes, it is a shame that the player must have encountered the elements of the playerbase that he did. I'm with LoD and Eternal on this one.

[Belenos]

No the person that wrote the review was most likely from this thread. http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21216.

While we may not like the review, people have a right to review as they see fit, even if what thay say is factually incorrect.  I will have to agree with LoD's contention that the views represented in the review probably don't stem from the new player, but rather from the influence of an existing or prior player.

To address this quote in particular:

Support-wise the developers don't care much beyond their plots that involve the same 10-20 players who have been playing there for years. Caveat emptor: most players are just part of the landscape.

There is much wrong with this statment, and I want to assure you that plot development is very dependent on the players.  Furthermore some of the newest of players are some of the most interesting to work with.  It is the players that drive the landscape.

I also agree with Mr Moe, let it go.  It is just a bad review in a sea of good ones.

[Bebop]

People have the right to their own opinions.  This thread just gave that opinion more publicity.  Woot.

[deathjet]

Personaly (from the view point of a newbie who hasn't died... yet) I'd say I have to agrea on a few things but, not quite in the same way...

Armageddon MUD lacks focus with character development. Most characters you can create from the get go are very canned.

Although the selection is reletivly limited, there's few rules on how to play them compared to some of the other M.U.D.'s I've seen. Thus the flexability of each possibility is welcomeing.

A fixed guild/subguild selection along with randomly rolled stats earns you a character who may or may not be aligned with your character concept. If you want to make a burly thug you'll find that rolling low on strength quickly makes for an awkward clumsy character.

Just about every M.U.D. I've seen has had some form of guild/subguild system, and although some what annoying, unavoidable for orgaizational (if you can call it that) reasons; here there's simply no fancy names.

The other downside is the seemingly schizophrenic focus the game has. You're told not to powergame or min/max your character and focus on roleplaying; however almost all the players except for a handful spend their time farming mobs and killing players indiscrimanetly.

While I admit, the focus seems a tad "schizophrenic", it (in my opinion) makes things more suited to the style. There are allways people who are going to want to become "the best", and ignore the more "R.P. intensive" elements; likewise, there's allways going to be some one who wants to make some easy money. Best to focus on every one's style (even if it's not by a large amount).

The party line towed by the playerbase is that the game is "harsh." Really, most of the systems in place are there to promote player griefing under the guise of "roleplaying" (e.g. desert elves who are encouraged to swindle players and make their lives miserable).

Far as I can tell, the N.P.C.'s do it just as much as elves (from a perspective). Addationaly, there's going to be "griefing" no matter what game you play, so you might as well deal with it in a game that's more aware and balancing the issue.

Support-wise the developers don't care much beyond their plots that involve the same 10-20 players who have been playing there for years.

the Imm.'s have a definitive plot in mind? wear'd he find this: I havn't seen anything about it in the help files (why'd you have to make so many?).

Caveat emptor: most players are just part of the landscape.

Everyone's a hero, every one's a villian, or every one's a commaner... no matter how you put it, everyone's allways just a part of the land scape.
At least here's there's a definitive hiearichy of power rather than just: he's new, he's been here for a year, he's the highest ranked P.K.'er, ect., ect., ect....



as far as being for a select number of people, I personaly feel this to be a little more "close to home" with my style compared to the others that simply give you a sword and tell you to start killing things.
(half tempted to wright a review about this).





If you realy wanted to get an unbiased (to a degree) review, you could gather all your thoughts (as in the people's who play ARM.) (the good, bad, and indifferent) and give it to a third party who's never played it and have them compile the info into a review...

That'd probably be rather interesting...

[spawnloser]

Since I hadn't chimed in yet...

I think it's kind of sad that this guy just doesn't seem to get it.  He's obviously been talking to other people who just don't get it either instead of what everyone trying to help him suggested, which is to talk to the helpers.

He obviously didn't put in the effort necessary to get it, at least get it just a little bit.  It's unfortunate, but he's made up his mind.  Oh well.

[Moofassa]

Support-wise the developers don't care much beyond their plots that involve the same 10-20 players who have been playing there for years. Caveat emptor: most players are just part of the landscape.

I don't completely dissagree with disgruntled newbie here.

[veryalien]

Hi,

That was me. I played one character with a friend at the lab. She showed me the ropes. The character lasted one RL week and had about 1.5 days played time I believe.

A few things you should know before throwing rocks:

* The party line is: "stats don't matter." I respectfully stated in the thread that the stats should simply be removed then.

* I emailed one Imm about a role he was looking to fill. No response. None after more than a week. Not even a "we filled it."

* My friend joined the 'Byn and also received zero response for a week before he gave up by watching his char almost starve to death.

* Every reboot there was what appeared to be a mul or a really big dwarf run around and killing all the "rare" spawns. These are animals that don't respawn by themselves. RP be damned, I also would like to check out the world and since I was playing a hunter it was completely kosher IC to hunt down small animals. After a reboot I had to stay in doors because this fine specimen would chase people off and attack them with zero RP.

* This wasn't the only incident of mob farming. Please go east of Tuluk and watch the same tired three of four guys slaughter everything run back to Tuluk and cash in. Imms, watch this area after a reboot. I mean we're talking EQ boss farming territory here.

With that said best of luck. I've moved onto Harshlands and really I don't see Armageddon moving past these problems until it focuses on the players and not it's idea of how a game should be played. I think the real problem lies there.

[Beux]

So you had a problem with playing a hunter in Tuluk. Come down to 'Nak and try out a city merchant. Get a full scope of the game before you diss it. Even if there is a few people 'farming' mobs up in Tuluk, whats the point in quitting just because of that? Send an e-mail to the Staff letting them know about the situation - they can resolve it if they see a problem. Then carry on.

As for stats. Stats do matter, for gameplay, but they are NOT an important factor. If you're chars weak, deal with it, he'll lose a tavern brawl, be a lousy hunter, but you can RP being a lousy clumsy hunter and still have fun. Though - if you decided on your char realistically, lets a say a middle-aged well travelled warrior...then placed strength at the top of your stat priorities...I HIGHLY DOUBT that you would have bad strength. There is code in place to help you get stats are that are relative to your role.

[veryalien]

So you had a problem with playing a hunter in Tuluk.

No it was multiple PCs. You need to understand that roleplay was enforced very selectively and the general party line that I was given on the boards did not reflect reality in-game.

This was the straw that broke the kank's back so to speak.

[Beux]

So you had a problem with playing a hunter in Tuluk.

No it was multiple PCs. You need to understand that roleplay was enforced very selectively and the general party line that I was given on the boards did not reflect reality in-game.

This was the straw that broke the kank's back so to speak.

I meant you had trouble BEING a hunter. E.g. playing with a hunter char.

Personally I don't think you really played long enough to have that many straws, to continue a metaphor. Like I said...if you have issues with the way other PC's are playing, you should e-mail the staff. E-mail being operative word, as they do not check the boards and respond in the way they do to e-mails.

I really don't think you gave Arm a chance. I'm not attacking you, I'm just sorry. I really think you are missing out. If you're ever tempted to give it another go, try something completely different. Like I said, a 'Nak merchant or something. You really have to explore the game to understand it, and I don't think you even got the icing.

I'm very sorry you had a bad experience with your first char. But I think you can tell from the support for Arm and the way its dedicated RP'ERS rave about it...that it's awesome. We all have bad moments.

One of my chars died in a way I thought represented pretty bad RP. They weren't given much of a chance from an RP standing, and the player involved was much more inclined to kill her than to take up on the RP development she was offering. I thought that sucked - but I also know Arm rocks in otherways, so I just dealt with it and made a new char.

[Halaster]

Sorry to see you go, I hope you enjoy Harshlands - I've only heard really good things about it.  You can also try Shadows of Isildur - it's a LotR-based RPI MUD.

[Xygax]

It actually sounds like this player had some legitimately negative experiences.  It's too bad he didn't have an outstanding experience, and we're aware that the introduction and ramp-up for new players can be very challenging.  For those that are able to get over that initial difficulty, the game is the best thing EVAR.  Those that don't get past that initial difficulty probably don't have that particular madness that hooks people to ArmageddonMUD and makes them great players anyway.

-- X