New '&' emote token

[Cale_Knight]

I'm not speaking for Tiernan, but when that happens to me, it makes me want to stop picking fruit.

Right now the majority of the responses seem designed to make a coder go "Okay, I guess I won't bother with anything", which I would rather the coders not be thinking, myself.

Guilt trips like this are entirely unfair. Would the immstaff prefer mindless sycophants or honest critics?

Almost every time something is coded, there are pages upon pages of (well-deserved) praise to the immstaff and the coders.

But not every time. And saying "Well fine! I'm going to take my ball and go home!" is simply uncalled for.

Hell, Xygax. Go back and read your post in this  thread. It's the same sentiment here.

Or maybe we should just ban all public criticism of every single thing the immstaff does.

[spawnloser]

I <3 Tiernan.

Like, seriously.

Please, can I bear your children?

Pretty please?

With a cherry on top?

[Tiernan]

Guilt trips like this are entirely unfair. Would the immstaff prefer mindless sycophants or honest critics?

Or maybe we should just ban all public criticism of every single thing the immstaff does.

I don't see these as guilt trips at all.  They're more a reminder that perhaps a bit more thought and tact could be applied before posting.  Is this thread really a discussion about "New '&' emote token" as its title purports, or a discussion and pitch for a different set of emote changes (as hashed out in this thread)?  It was derailed at the onset by "To be perfectly honest, I would have rather seen & be a token for 'his/hers' and 'yours'. "  I have a good amount of respect for Delirium and believe her qualification that it was more "puzzlement" than "bitch" to be sincere.  I would've preferred to address the hers/yours topic in a separate thread instead of having it muddy up this thread.  Again, the topic is about the '&' token for "himself".

Comments such as "[W]e're puzzled why something we've asked for countless times is ignored and instead we get something equivalent that we've never wanted and that has very little use." can really take the wind out of some one's sails.  I can't figure out a way that doesn't say that I'm insensitive to the concerns of the player-base and the time and effort I spent on this latest coding effort is worthless.  I've been donating my time and efforts to the player-base for over a decade.  I don't think I'd still be here if I was insensitive to the players and their ideas on how to improve this game.  I also don't think I'd still be here if I wasn't able to handle constructive criticism.  But I have to ask, was that truly constructive criticism?

I welcome honest, constructive criticism.  Potshots, character assassinations, hidden agendas and insults veiled under the guise of criticism, I could do without.  Similarly, I wouldn't mind seeing less hyperbole.

[Anonymous]

I'm in agreement with the imms here, though i would have loved to have seen some of these posts and comments in the bard thread when the bards were being ripped apart my the same type of "criticism".

[Hymwen]

Permission to speak freely? Good, thanks.

I am extremely disappointed in what seems to be a habit practiced by some of the staff: any criticism is met with "yeah, well, we could just as easily not do anything for you". That to me is basically another way of telling me to shut up if I have something other than pure praise for whatever is being done. I've seen it many times, in fact most of my (mild, polite and justified in my opinion) criticism is met with just that answer.

It would help immensely if you let us know when you were considering or in the process of coding something we've asked for. So many times have ideas come up with page after page of pure agreement, and no staff answer or one staff saying "yeah, that's neat" and then nothing else. Then one day 3 months later it goes in, or it doesn't, but in either case it's very discouraging to see a great idea be discussed and no word from the staff, and even moreso when a while later, you see them code something which to me looks like it has taken the exact same amount of effort and 95% the same type of coding as what we asked for, yet is something that we can't see the point of. If you would then tell us that what we did ask for is on the way and that this is a test, people would understand. When you tell us nothing, you give me and probably others the impression that you're not listening.

So many times have I been left with a feeling of censorship because it seems that the vast majority of any criticism I post here is met with what I think is a childish response: "if you don't like what we do, we can just stop".

[Pantoufle]

Wording is everything in the internet world.  In the favor of those staff members who seem put off not by the criticism, itself, but the choice of wording used while criticizing, I can say I completely understand.  Let me give you an example.

If I'm talking to a friend online through an instant messenger and I tell them: "Hey, I just got home from work.  Wow man, it's been an exhausting day, I wouldn't even know where to begin to tell you all that's happened to me," and, in reply, my friend says, "Oh."  Guess what?  I'm going to feel offended.  Technically there's nothing wrong or rude with the expression 'Oh'.  It's a response that basically indicates you have received what the other person said.  But come on.  Don't tell me you wouldn't feel a little irked if the above scenario happened to you.

Here's another example.  I'm online again talking to a friend and I say, "I have to have my wisdom teeth pulled tomorrow" and my friend says "You told me already."  It may seem like a matter of fact statement -- if I did indeed already tell them, well then yeah, I already told them -- but some might take it offensively because in the internet world there is no means of expressing tone.  To the reader it may come across as something along the lines of "Yeah dude, no shit, you told me this already!"  How do I know the difference between you gently indicating that I already mentioned my wisdom teeth will be pulled tomorrow versus you getting ornery and unpleasantly reminding me about it unless you use the appropriate wording?  It only sounds pedantic when you're not on the receiving end of these words.

Now that doesn't mean we should flower our words with smiley faces every step of the way, but a little extra caution in adding just the right words goes a long way.  

"Wow, that busy of a day, huh?" in the first example and "Yep, I remember you were saying that yesterday, you must not be looking forward to it" in the second, make a world of a difference.  You could apply the same logic to constructive criticism of the new emote code.

[Djarjak]

It would help immensely if you let us know when you were considering or in the process of coding something we've asked for. So many times have ideas come up with page after page of pure agreement, and no staff answer or one staff saying "yeah, that's neat" and then nothing else.

I would ordinarily agree with you, but for two things:

1) There have been a lot of great things implemented on the game that have solved a lot of problems and received acclaim after implementation that would have drawn so much divergent criticism in such a forum that it would have frustrated any self-respecting programmer into inaction.

2) The staff who make Armageddon what it is do it in their free and spare time. They are not compensated with money, promotions, or even job skills in most cases. Taking the 5 minutes between when you get home and your wife gets home with the kid to whip in a quick emote is often a hell of a lot easier than posting it for review by people who will either complain bitterly about it or argue its semantics until you don't want to do it anymore.

I've had to seriously cut back on my GDB usage since I came on staff, because if I spent time actually reading everything out here, I'd never get your reimbursements done, your apps approved, your clan docs completed, your building done, or any clan maintenance.

Remember, you have one thing to do: Play and enjoy the game. We've got about half a dozen things to do that you never even see.

[Lazloth]

Can someone please give some examples?

After some play, I've found incorporating the flexibility of the reflexive dative/accusative can lead for some more colorful emoting (that doesn't involve ordering around servant-type NPCs.)

> emote seeing !whoever hurt &whoever with the rusty dagger, @ turns around and beats a hasty exit

> emote watching ~you dress &you, @ clucks his tongue and leers

> emote ignoring ~someone bandaging &someone, @ addresses everyone else within earshot

> spemote face splits into a grin as he listens to ~you berate &you on the canopied bed

> hpemote fingers twitch while she watches ~you drink &you into a stupor, eyes drifting time and again to ^you bulging coinpurse

[Xygax]

Permission to speak freely? Good, thanks.

This seems to me to be an oddly confrontational opening.  Upon reading it, my irritation level rose immediately.  It is laced with sarcasm and connotes resentment on your part (as in your previous post) for what you perceive as a personal slight.

I am extremely disappointed in what seems to be a habit practiced by some of the staff: any criticism is met with "yeah, well, we could just as easily not do anything for you". That to me is basically another way of telling me to shut up if I have something other than pure praise for whatever is being done. I've seen it many times, in fact most of my (mild, polite and justified in my opinion) criticism is met with just that answer.

I noticed a remark in one of your previous posts where you note that English isn't your first language; so it is distinctly possible that you don't recognize the sometimes-harsh (not always, I agree) connotations of your "mild, polite and justified" posts.  I'll try to be less sensitive when I see them, but this one was particularly aggressively phrased.

It would help immensely if you let us know when you were considering or in the process of coding something we've asked for. So many times have ideas come up with page after page of pure agreement, and no staff answer or one staff saying "yeah, that's neat" and then nothing else. Then one day 3 months later it goes in, or it doesn't, but in either case it's very discouraging to see a great idea be discussed and no word from the staff, and even moreso when a while later, you see them code something which to me looks like it has taken the exact same amount of effort and 95% the same type of coding as what we asked for, yet is something that we can't see the point of. If you would then tell us that what we did ask for is on the way and that this is a test, people would understand. When you tell us nothing, you give me and probably others the impression that you're not listening.

I'm always leery of putting "yeah, I'll work on that" or "yeah, we're planning something like this" style posts on these forums, as they inevitable lead to (as you put it) disappointment, when either the feature doesn't arrive promptly, or is implemented differently than originally suggested.  When it happens, I feel as if I have broken my word.  Since I'd rather not do that, I usually keep my projects to myself.  Also, as others have mentioned, since what we do here is a voluntary effort, I often work on the things that suit my particular whim -- whether it be learning some new technology or coding a particularly interesting algorithm, or just doing janitorial projects in the code that have no benefit to anyone but other coders.

So many times have I been left with a feeling of censorship because it seems that the vast majority of any criticism I post here is met with what I think is a childish response: "if you don't like what we do, we can just stop".

Someone telling you that they don't like the way you phrase your "suggestions" isn't censorship.  If I wanted to censor you, I would go through the forums deleting or editing your posts, or deny you the privilege of posting entirely.  Perhaps this is again a language-barrier issue, but using the term "censorship" this casually, in my opinion, trivializes a very serious subject.  Censorship isn't trivial, and we rarely engage in it on these forums.

To answer Cale Knight's post, I'd probably prefer honest critics to mindless sycophants, but it's a close call.  I'm not a huge fan of either.  I prefer silence to both.  Especially when the "honest criticism" is phrased as: "No, we're puzzled why something we've asked for countless times is ignored and instead we get something equivalent that we've never wanted and that has very little use."

Also, I'd much prefer to be honestly criticized privately than on a public forum.  I'm much more likely to handle a well-phrased critique sent to me via e-mail as a suggestion (and maybe even implement it), than someone looking for popular support for an idea or criticism as a means of attempting to pressure me into implementing it.  Popular support for an idea, in my experience, often doesn't equate to "good for the game".

-- X

[Delirium]

> emote seeing !whoever hurt &whoever with the rusty dagger, @ turns around and beats a hasty exit

> emote watching ~you dress &you, @ clucks his tongue and leers

> emote ignoring ~someone bandaging &someone, @ addresses everyone else within earshot

> spemote face splits into a grin as he listens to ~you berate &you on the canopied bed

> hpemote fingers twitch while she watches ~you drink &you into a stupor, eyes drifting time and again to ^you bulging coinpurse

Great examples, Lazloth, thanks.

Tiernan, et al: I should have thought about the way my first post might come across a bit more before hitting the 'submit' button. Sorry about that.

em smacks &me on the forehead.

[Beux]

Waiting in the wings are the emote parsing tokens "=" and "+".

These will work thusly:

Code Select Expand


     Symbol    Reference    Target Sees
     ------    ---------    -----------
       =       (sdesc)'s       yours
       +       his/hers        yours


Apparently I should have waited until all three were live instead of publishing the changes as they went live individually.  Personally, I dislike publishing early because when I do publish a change prior to a reboot that incorporates it, inevitably there are wishes, bugs and email reporting that it's not working.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Yay!!!

[Hexxaex]

So with the His and Hers emote, most examples would probably be with a predetermined object in mind (likely put before the = + modifier)?

>emote takes %woman rock instead of =man.

Any more examples for that?

[Jherlen]

To 7DV, Dalmeth & others: Questioning the use of a new feature on its own isn't being whiny, it's doing exactly that. We wondered what kind of emotes you could use the new character in, and some people provided helpful examples, and so now we know.

With that said I can definitely see how crucifying any new code changes because your own favorite changes haven't come in yet could quickly wear down on the coders. "Command emotes?!?! Why would you do this when we've asked ("countless times") for changes to the crim code?!?!" Things like that don't really help anyone; staff, players, or yourself.

I wouldn't consider myself a sycophant, but I can honestly not think of any code changes over the last, year that I have actively dis-liked. Some I have loved, some have been neat in that "huh, I won't get to use this much but it's cool" sort of way, and some I've been indifferent on because for whatever reason they haven't affected my play. But the fact is the staff has been very active in making changes, and often times things I've seen implemented have been in response to player suggestions and input -- and that's a level of responsiveness you don't find many other places.

I definitely think there's room for critcism of the staff when it's warranted. I just don't think critiscising them for adding new features is a very good idea if you want new features to keep being added. Argue against the idea, sure, but let's not argue along the "Why did you do this instead of -this-?" line. I'd rather not have the court of public opinion convicting new changes because of percieved limited utility in the face of other possible changes.

And Tiernan, thanks a lot for the three new emote tokens. If we don't already, we should definitely start advertising our emote code as the most advanced one you could find in an RPI.

[Tiernan]

So with the His and Hers emote, most examples would probably be with a predetermined object in mind (likely put before the = + modifier)?

>emote takes %woman rock instead of =man.

Any more examples for that?

I'll try, although I'm sure there are far more creative people out there who can show off how + and = work.

:takes %man hand and places it in =woman.

To actor & witnesses:

The old, parental figure takes the dapper young man's hand and places it in the beautiful woman's.

To the man:

The old, parental figure takes your hand and places it in the beautiful woman's.

To the woman:

The old, parental figure takes the dapper young man's hand and places it in yours.

----------

[spawnloser]

Example 1:

> em brushes the hair from ^me eyes, turning ^me gaze to meet =sexy.

Target sees:

The slick dude brushes the hair from his eyes, turning his gaze to meet yours.

Everyone else sees:

The slick dude brushes the hair from his eyes, turning his gaze to meet the sexy chick's.

Example 2:

> em turns towards ~hottie, ^me swinging sword stopping upon meeting +hottie.

Target sees:

The slick dude turns towards you, his swinging sword stopping upon meeting yours.

Everyone else sees:

The slick dude turns towards the super hottie, his swinging sword stopping upon meeting hers.

[Morrolan]

Also, I'd much prefer to be honestly criticized privately than on a public forum.

This was my thought as I read the thread.  Sometimes the GDB feels a little much like a closed community, but it's very much a public forum.  When I post, I try to remember that I am not only talking about Armageddon and its player, but I'm also representing Arm to newbies and prospective newbies who are looking to join.

Morrolan

[Quirk]

I don't know how to break it to the rest of you if you don't know already - but coding is work, and sometimes hard and frustrating work. People get paid pretty decent money to do it for a living.

I suspect most of our coders already spend their working days coding for their employers. Then they come home tired, and if they've got the energy they may do some more for the mud. This is very kind, but we shouldn't expect it of them. And, as Xygax has already pointed out, a coder having to state what he's working on and how long it's going to take is now under the pressure of player expectations in addition to the pressure of whatever imm responsibilities lie within his purview.

The question then becomes who should get to decide what the coders work on. And when put like that, I find it hard to argue that anyone but the coders should get to decide what they get to work on next - they're doing it voluntarily, and if they're to remain motivated, they need encouragement. If they add something that seems useless to you, well, so be it, at least they're in a coding mood and motivated enough to do stuff. Save your complaints for the rare occasion when they may add something you consider actively harmful to the game; that's when you most need them to listen to you, and you don't want to wear out their patience before then.

[Beux]

Being told if a coders working on something, and when they're going to have it done by is probably a bit much - and like you say, easily puts them under far more pressure than it's worth.

But I suppose it'd be kinda nice if they just gave some response, either positively or negatively towards ideas, that way we can get some sort of idea on where the idea stands with them, do they hate it, do they think it's awesome, is there a possibility it will be coded, will it -never- happen...etc etc.

[Nao]

The coders spend their free time on improving the game for the playerbase and of course - they're the ones working on this and they should decide what goes in, it's their time, their work and it would be completely absurd if they went working on somthing they didn't want to do - imms sitting grudgingly n front of their programs like it's that nasty homework that you were told to do but absolutely hated before you even started? No way.
Still - there should be some criticism allowed, and not only when someone thinks this new bit of code has absolutely ruined the game but also when you're of the opinion that this could have been done in a somewhat different way, as long as everyone stays reasonable and polite, which seems to have been the case here (again, Englich isn't my native language, either, so maybe I'm missing something here even if I don't think so).
Why? Even if it might make someone that put a lot of effort into something disappointed - constructive criticism is absolutely essential for improvement of the game - you'll have to at least partially do what the players like in order to keep a stable playerbase. You should still have some way of both positive and negative feedback in order to improve the overall impression of the game.
Holding back every and all criticism that might be slightly negative because someone put a lot of effort into their project seems to be a typical american attitude that has always irked me a bit - it seems to decrease the value of the really grat stuff and to slow down or stop improvement - this might as well have gone into the bard thread.

[JoeCan'tLogIn]

If the playerbase really wants to see specific changes happen, I would reccomend downloading the open source SOI engine, making a change to it, hosting it as a prototype and then sending a document of the changes to the mud.

Prototypes sell much more then posts do. People respond to things they can see more readily.  If you took those steps you'd help move something closer to low hanging fruit for the staff because they'd have something to look at and relate to.

I'm not speaking for the staff here (obviously) but if you really wanted to contribute that would be the *best* way to do so, while Arm remains closed source (and it needs to).

If you don't know how to code, go to rentacoder.com and describe what you want and have people bid on it.