Etwo: the new combat technique on the block!

[Lazloth]

Carnage:

Correct me if I'm wrong--

You type skills.
You see shield use and dual wielding.
You feel slighted in that you are using a two-handed weapon, as neither of these skills (and the ensuing combat modifications) are utilized.

What I am saying is that:

The code is undeniably robust enough to understand that you are using a weapon two-handed.  The code is undoubtedly intelligent enough to assign bonuses (let's say to damage) and penalties (let's say to your defense) based on that fact.  This is above and beyond the fact that the diceroll on a two-handed weapon is generally going to be higher than your one-handed variety (yes, setting aside that you may in fact be etwo'ing a one-hander).

Based on the above, you have an advantage in etwo'ing (assuming you are not a combat veteran), as your fictitious skill-level in the ability is not queried as it would be if you were using a shield or an off-hand weapon.

[EDIT]:  About the only thing I'd offer is that if you're etwoing it should be much more difficult for you to be disarmed, if such is not already in place.

[DrunkenSalarr]

I looked around, couldn't find anything on vikings dual-wielding or real-life dual wielding.

Ever hear of fencing? or many of the other French styles of swordplay?  The point is two wield two light weapons in each hand. I'll admit, wielding a greatsword in each hand is only realistic if you're a half-giant.  

Fine Sources for various forms of combat:

http://www.musketeer.org/manuals/diGrassi/contents.htm
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing.html
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/miscellany_pdf/Other_Articles_VIII.pdf[/list]

[creeper386]

The problem is... You get better at dual wielding, or you get better at shield use, ALONG WITH getting better at using a weapon. If your using ONE weapon, EPed or ETWOed your only getting better at using that weapon. You don't have the benefit of another skill giving in bonuses, and it certainly DOES effect things.

If it didn't, why so often do you see skilled people during training stop using their normal dual wielding to use one weapon? So not to beat the living crap out of the unskilled person they are training. The only problem with fixing this well give no way for people skilled all about in combat to not beat the living crap out of someone they are training.

BUT, to try and say using a weapon and shield, or using two weapons is more practical, and more common it's obviously not true. And even though people who think even a six foot sword is going to weigh that much might be alittle off(Real swords acctually don't weigh that much, there is a BIG misconception due to ceremonial swords and swords not meant for battle being made today that aren't acctually replicas of real swords. Go look at a website that sells swords meant for a fight, a normal longsword should be about 4-5 pounds if I am remembering correctly) it's still extremely difficult to keep two longer weapons moving together, and more often in general melee, a shield well get in the way more often then not. Another misconception that using two hands on a weapon means your going slower, or your AUTOMATICALLY swinging some massive over hand strokes that if you miss your going to be falling to the ground. You do get the benefit of some added strength into swings, but if you swing as hard as you can, your likely to miss and be dead when trying to pull your sword out of the ground/post/wall/anything else. Go pick up a real sword meant for combat. It won't be that heavy, BUT it's still alot easier to move about when keeping both hands open, doesn't mean always on the hilt, just in place to help the other hand.

Creeper

[DrunkenSalarr]

My Weapon of Choice (IRL, not game) is a two handed weapon. It also happens to be one of the heaviest blades out there.  Once again creeper was right. My weapon of choice only weighs 5-7lbs, but that can get very heavy, really fast.

The Wild Highlanders (my favorite smiths) do traditional bladesmithing.  All their weapons are battle ready, and they keep extensive documentation on what they do.  Here is their blurb about my WoC:

Claidheamh Da Laihm
OTHER NAMES:The Great Sword or Two-Handed Broad Sword
LENGTH: 48 to 73 inches
WEIGHT: 5-7 pounds<br>
DESCRIPTION:
Pronounced Claid Da Lav Mor in Gaelic and means "Great Two Handed Sword." This weapon was Sir William Wallace's favorite.  It was just over 6 ft long and weighted more than 7 lbs. A blow from one of these swords would cut a man in half.

The true highland cla-d'lav has a forward sweeping quillian, with tips pointing toward the of the blade making it easier to wield and keep the opponents blade away from the hands and arms. This large and heavy weapon takes much strength and agility to wield properly. Sizes vary dependent on the height of highlander, measuring from the ground to the top of the sternum.

This and other great documention can be found at //www.wildhighlanders.com

Drunken Salarr, who can actually use this weapon well.

[Carnage]

Ever hear of fencing? or many of the other French styles of swordplay? The point is two wield two light weapons in each hand.

I asked the French about it, but they surrendered and ran away.

Anyway, I'm not really convinced much on the topic of dual-wielding and I'm not looking to argue about it or be convinced either way. I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone else, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't derail the thread that's about etwo onto some spree about how likely dual wield is. I stated that was how I saw dual wield. If you don't like it, tough shit.

Moving on, Creeper brought up some good things to attention. Excellent job, Crepper.

[Lazloth]

Moving on, Creeper brought up some good things to attention. Excellent job, Crepper.

I'm not flaming, but you have got to be kidding me.

Perhaps you gain the weapon-skill slower if you are using Shield-use or Dual-wield. That's at least what I've noticed as far as Dual-Wield vs. Etwo, My Dual-wielder that lost a weapon and etwo'd the one he had left, was much worse using just the one weapon, not because Dual-wield gives bonuses to attack, but because I wasn't as good with the weapon. Ermmm... okay, I'll try to put it in statistical terms (Keep in mind, these are just my observations, and why I think the game is Okay without an etwo skill)

Okay, you have a dual-wielder, an etwo'er and a shielder. Here are their stat percentages. Assume same playing time, training time etc.

           Dual-Wield   | Shield-use   |  Weapon-of-choice
DWer          50%      |       0%       |       40%
ETWOer       0%       |       0%        |      75%
SHIELDer     0%       |       55%      |      55%

Now... of course take these numbers with a grain of salt... it's just to illustrate a point. Now note those numbers don't add up to the same amount... well that's because Dual-wield at that level allows you to fight with each weapon (Less for offhand) at roughly the same level as if you had that one weapon in one hand, at a 40% skill in that weapon. Shield-Use at that level would provide bonuses to parry and such, and the weapon would be used at 55%. The Etwoer, having been training in -only- the weapon skill, would get much better with that weapon much quicker. They don't have to worry about the interaction of weapon and weapon or weapon and shield. So therefore they fight with a 75% skill in that weapon, offsetting the Dual-wielding of the other guy and the Shield-use of the third guy.

Jesus.... I hope that post made some kind of sense. Maybe it's better just to skip this one.

[creeper386]

Alright, first of all I'm going to warn you, that this is a REALLY long post. Also everything in here is just what I know from the reseach I know and the common link between everything I'm not in any way saying I'm absolutely right or any sort of knowledgable person when it comes to this, I'm also NOT going to respond to the little remark about people kidding. I DO acctually know what I'm talking about. If you have a 50 pound sword your fucking arm is going to fall off. End of statement, if you think otherwise, your aren't too bright or have never held a real sword.

AND just for that, I got an experiment for you if you think a sword that light couldn't possibly be tiring. Get a 3 foot piece of wood, 2 by 2 would probably work. Stick something on the end that weighs roughly a pound. Now start swinging that around. Now make another one. Get a buddy and fight with them using only one hand the whole time. See how quickly your arm plays out. now take a break, rest up. Do it again, this time use both hands, doesn't have to always be on the hilt at the same time, the second hand is there mostly for support. See how long it takes your arms to play out this time.

Now, the first part, is to show you something light when sticking out from your arm can be heavy, it may not weigh alot, but the leverage and momentem well certainly work your muscles fairly well. The second part, is to show you one of the small benefits of having a free hand and using it in conjunction with the other, on one weapon.

Now, the idea of French swordsmanship and duel wielding, yes it was done, but it wasn't two long weapons. It was done with a foil or rapier, both EXTREMELY light swords, and the off-hand weapon was normal a main-gauche(Sp? Not sure, but I beleive it has something to do with left hand, being considered as the common weak hand). Even if the off-hand weapon was something else, it was a small weapon used mainly for parrying. Stilettos were also used, but more by the lower classes because they were considered fighting dirty(The stiletto is also one of the things that made metal armour almost as useful as cloth).

Alright, got all that out of the way. Now I'm going to tell you may favoriate weapon. Well, discounting the katana, I really like that because it's very light and EXTREMELY monuverable. After that, my favoriate weapon is probably one of the most used sword in histord. The hand in a half. Also commonly called a bastard sword because it's between a longsword and a greatsword. I beleive the bastard sword was commonly about 5 feet, give to take a half foot for variant styles, and had an extended hilt which made room for using a second hand. Can be used with one hand, or two, ussually used alone with your off-hand supporting your main hand. This does wonders against momentum, giving you extra strenght in a swing as well as more control and support for parrying and blocking, but in acctuality the only difference is really it being longer because it's use in combat is much like a long sword or a greatsword(Only more off-hand or less off-hand respectively). Main difference in usage from the longsword is it was less likely to be used in conjunction with a shield(Except when mounted I beleive) and main difference from a greatsword is it wasn't completely relying upon strength or weight of the blow(Kind of the strong man's finesse weapon).

How does ALL this fit into everything... Well duel wielding two long weapons was NEVER a very common thing, and a back up dagger or knife was mostly used in surprise. So the alot of most battles was fought with one weapon(Unless your using light weight pussy weapons like the French  :twisted: ) The idea of battles being light footed, duel wielding dances of hypnotic death is mostly brought up because of fantasy stories, as is the idea that swords weigh a massive amount(Want to see things that weigh alot, try putting on a suit of armour, think the only thing in human history that was heavier and still worn was old fashion diving suits). And, although I don't think duel wield or anything else would change, I do think that at least two more weapon styles should be made into skills so they can be used as successful as duel wield, and shield use. I'm pretty sure if they were equal in there own way duel wield wouldn't be as famous as it is now, just because people like to be different sometimes unless it is truly hard to do it by code.

Creeper who has rambled enough for now, my appoligies.

[Delirium]

My point is not to say that all dual-wielding styles on Zalanthas are elegant. Many may be, especially in the North where supposedly, that sort of effect is something they strive for. However, it's not just 'flailing about' either, it can be brutal and to the point, or it can be deceptive and quick - but if you have any skill whatsoever, you're not going to be 'flailing'. If you were, you'd lose a limb or the fight pretty quickly. The only time I see that happening is when you're learning to dual wield and/or when your character loses control. I certainly was not trying to imply that your characters would duck away with perfect poise and grace each time. Watch one of my characters training (sparring) and you'd quickly see that, depending on their opponent's skill, it's quite possible they'll become off balance, try to recover themselves while clumsily attempting to bat away attacks and stumbling backwards, lashing out wildly, etc. Never did I mean to imply that your characters are automatically perfect, beautifully elegant combat machines.

.. Well, I went off on a tangent there.

Anyway, another point you all might have forgotten to remember is that while us Earthlings are (in general) only capable of dual-wielding two light weapons - which still takes an incredible amount of hand-eye coordination and skill - these are Zalanthan people we're talking about. In general, they are stronger, faster, hardier, more agile and more or less, mean little bastards that would put the best of ours to shame.