Use of swear words in RP

[sarahjc]

I'm very much a newbie to any and all muds. I just starting playing Arm and have become quite addicted. My question is about cursing during a role play.

As I looked at some someone the other day walking into a tavern they adressed me with "What the fuck you look'n at" I replied with a (looking down at ~person) "Not much" sort of response. And was then answered with "Fuck You Bitch" and the other party walked into a tavern.

Is that bad RP to just use coman profanity? There was no originality or thought for that matter. I'm no prude and don't mind cursing, but I thought that the idea was to create a sceen around you Not just use a bunch of swears and run away.

If he had said something like

The ~person feels your eyes on him and turns around to size you to size you up.
Person tells you  "What the fuck you look'n at!"
I could see the use of cursing to be fine..

I wanted to say something to him ooc but, like I said I'm a newbie and am not sure what is really exceptable roleplay, nor should I be giving roleplay advice..

[Sephiroto]

While I do not speak for everyone, phrases like those are not very common and in my opinon, frowned upon.

While I have used phrases like those in the past, I refrain from speaking like that.  My characters do infact use profanity, but they are much more realmly than 'fuck you bitch.'

Here are a list of things that could be said in the Zalanthan mood, and their real life translations.

'Fek' or 'Feck you' = Fuck you
'Shite' = shit
'Ass' or 'Arse' = ass
'Krath' or 'Muk' = Damn
'Gebber(s)' or 'Fek(s)' = bastards
'Drov' = Hell
'Fek you yeh son of a gortok/tok/kank' = Fuck you you son of a bitch.
'To Drov with them gebbers' = To hell with those bastards.

You catch my drift.

Those are some of the more in character ways to use profanity.  There are infact several alternative words to use, and are also multiple interpretations on what I have written.  But in general 'fuck you bitch' is not very in character.

Sephiroto hopes this helps.  

[crymerci]

"Fuck you bitch" could, IMO, be very IC, but the scene described doesn't seem likely to me. Most people I would think would stick to themselves and not try to cause trouble with people. For all he knew you could have been a noble, a templar's daughter, or a badass warrior.

Oh, and 'look' does not mean someone is staring at you. In fact, he couldn't have caught you looking at him (ICwise) unless he was looking at you. So that also seems bad roleplay.

That being said, however...people are going to be harsh and cruel in this game. At least what he did sounds somewhat more interesting than: Woman enters room. Woman looks at man. Man enters tavern.

[Anonymous]

Bitch bothers me because its a term for a female dog applied in other ways.  It seems out of place because I've always imagined Zalanthans having another name for their female gortok/cur types.

[Anonymous]

I got all my curses from an npc in the rinth

[John]

I thought it was fine, although after having it compared with fek and whatnot, I have to say "son a of a bitch" seems more out of place then "son of a cur dog". Are there dogs in Zalanthas?

I thought I remembered seeing a VNPC one in a village around Allanak (it was in the description).

The ~person feels your eyes on him and turns around to size you up.

I'm not having a go at you cause I'm a newbie myself, I'm just offering a tip (it took me QUITE some time with a lot of feedback to learn how to emote semi-decently). IMO a better emote then the one I put in bold would be:
The man glances over his shoulder and sizes you up.

The reason is it doesn't say his intetions.

I submitted a helpfile in the game that I was told got accepted. I posted it here in an earlier topic.

Does anyone know if it's accessible IG? If not you might want to BUG it.

[Rindan]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with profanity in my opinion.  One of my favorite characters managed to splice a 'fuck' or some other curse into nearly everything he said.  Zalanthas is a harsh and brutal word.  Keeping our language 'clean' seems downright silly in my opinion.  If anything, I would like to see those supposedly rough and dirty Byn learn how to talk like they have some hair on their chest.

In your case, it looks like someone was having a bad day and picked out someone who looked smaller and weaker then him.  He then tried to provoke you for his own personal enjoyment.  He bullied you and tried to provoke you.  That is a pretty common thing that bigger and meaner humans do.  I don't see everyone becoming polite just because they live in a brutally harsh wasteland.  

If anything, I would like to see more vulgarity in the game.

[John]

Have you met my mum Rindan? Her favourite saying is "fuck that's fucking fucked" (I have to admit. I am impressed by the saying).

All for curses and whatnot, but Fuck you, bitch, just seems out of place, more or less because I place it with "thug" lingo. You know, I can imagine Snoop Dog or Coolio saying that in one of their songs. (By the way, are either of them still cool today? Or even alive for that matter?)

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

My character says 'fuck' plenty. But never 'feck'. Why? Because do you honestly think changing one little vowel will make a difference? When people say 'feck', I assume they're trying to place in some sort of accent, which is fine. I don't do that, because I'm sick of trying to decode dwarven speech.

The stubby little dwarf says to you, in sirihish:
"Thax surexhm inl alyuy yoot goot thyrer!"

I do however, dislike 'bitch', I must admit. Simply becasue dogs don't exist on Zalanthas. However, men without mothers do, so 'bastard' would be acceptable, and I use it on occasion. In a world where ideas like Christianity and damnation have not been introduced, 'hell' wouldn't make a lot of sense. However, 'the hell-pits of Suk-Krath' suddenly explains it's presence in Arm, and justifies it's use. Therefore, if you're trying to figure out whether or not a swear word is appropriate for Arm, try and look at where the word comes from. We have plenty of 'shit' and 'bastards', but it seems we're a bit short on 'bitches' and 'fags'.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go wash my keyboard out with soap.  

[Meep]

Female toks are...

Bitch is perfectly acceptable, and yes, toks are canines, or canine-like.

However, fag would probably be best referring to faggot, or.. a bundle of sticks.

"I'll pay 30 sid for a faggot."

[Lazloth]

Fucking people with your bullshit.

How many times in the real world have you referred to a 'female dog' as a 'bitch'?  ..a cigarette as a 'fag'?  Puhleaze.

These are derogatory terms.  I don't give a shit if you use them in everyday speech on Earth or on Zalanthas.

[creeper386]

Hmm.. It's common to call a female dog a bitch. Like, "I payed $500 in stud fees and that bitch still isn't pregnant." and such. Also, in alot of places besides the US, if you refer to a fag it's going to mean a cigerette. Most modern conceptions of the words are either off, or absolutely completely wrong compared to the original sense of the word.

BUT, considering things like "Fuck you bitch." I think would be rarer in Zalanthas, even if bitch is used for the canine like animals on Zalanthas, and even if it's common reference to humonoid females, especially as an insult. It's more going to be something as a vulgar compliment.

The people are cruder, everything else is cruder... and something like "Fuck you bitch." isn't that crude, might be insulting now of days... SHRUG. Now, I think comming up with better things would be more in game. Something like types of things sailers used to have. Now of days it wouldnt' be that offensive except if the person your talking with knew what you were saying, but back then they had the roughest tongues about.

Creeper who acctually claims not making sense with this post.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I realize, Lazloth, that not a lot of people talk about orphaned sons or bundles of dry wood, but still, that's where the words originated. And therefore, if there isn't something similar to what the word came from on Zalanthas, then I honestly doubt it would be used there. Let's go with my classic example, 'bitch'.

Although I have no evidence, I think 'bitch' was first used to describe female dogs. There is always different names for animals depending on their sex, and thus is the case with dogs. However, at one point in time, the word 'dog' became offensive, as it was seen as a disgusting animal. Thus expressions like 'Taste my sword, you dog!' popped up. Also, during much of early Earth human history, and in many places, most culture's view of women wasn't all that great. Therefore, calling someone a 'woman', or even saying they're less then a man, would be considered offensive. That can still be seen today, in things like 'You throw like a girl' and the many offensive names people have created for a woman's sexual organs.

Anyways, if 'dog' is offensive, and 'woman' is offensive, then what would be the ultimate insult? A female dog, or 'bitch!'. Therefore, 'bitch' became the offensive heavy weight it is today. At this point, I'd like to restate that these are just theories I made up, and are in no way fact (Although you have to admit, it sort of makes sense).

Now, let's try and apply this to Zalanthas. Dogs do not exist there. And also, women, from my expierences, are given equal oppuritunites along with men. I mean, come on... We have female soldiers and Templars and female voting nobility.

Of course, you could argue that a female gortok could, indeed, be considered a 'bitch'. And your ideas on Zalanthian feminism may differ from mine, considering I haven't played a female character. Maybe women on Zalanthas aren't given the same equal oppuritunites, as everyone assumes?

Therefore, (Having just proved myself wrong and therefore making this post pointless, heh) it can be said that your own choice of swear words is a personal one, for both the player and the character. If you think 'bitch' is acceptable, but 'bastard' not, then alright. Don't say 'bastard'. But don't yell at some one else for doing so, because I'm sure they could justify it just as you can justify your own repitoire of foul language. However, if you see some one comparing his perverted buddy to Bill Clinton, or claiming he's 'hung like an elephant', then you have every right to get upset. And finally, if you want to play the prudent, formal-speaking type of character, then that is also fine. Just because the average Joe is foul-speaking and gritty doesn't mean you or your characters have to be.

It's up to you, within reason. Just some food for thought.

[John]

My character says 'fuck' plenty. But never 'feck'. Why? Because do you honestly think changing one little vowel will make a difference?

First time I ever heard the word 'feck' was in the Byn so I thought it was a Byn thing. Then I saw non-Bynners doing it so I thought it was an Arm thing. That's why I prefer feck over fuck.

Few months ago my friend said it so I realised it's an Earth thing

[Boggis]

Few months ago my friend said it so I realised it's an Earth thing

Yeah it's used fairly commonly in Ireland. It's a polite variant of the word fuck. I prefer to use feck ICly anyway as it's something more or less unique to Arm and makes it a little more distinct imo. I know it's only a small difference but it I like it.

[Rindan]

I never liked the word feck.  It just seems too weak to me.  It is the difference between 'darn it' and 'damn it all to hell' in my opinion.  It is weak and doesn't exactly leave me cowering in terror.  If are looking for a curse that is one step down from the real thing, then go ahead and go with feck.  However, fuck is the real thing when it comes to crudeness and vulgarity.  I see no reason to limit yourself to something weaker.

I see nothing wrong with the word bitch either.  I would say that it is safe to assume that bitch refers to a female 'tok.  Considering how ugly and vicious a 'tok is, that probably caries even more weight then bitch does in our society.

As far as 'fuck you, bitch', sure that is absolutely thuggish lingo.  I don't see that as a bad thing.  If the person is going for thuggish, then one should talk like they are a thug, no?  An insult doesn't need to be thoughtful or fancy in order for it to be good RP.  If you are a crude and thuggish individual, simple and crude is probably better then trying to think up something overly witty.

So long as the curses remain in theme, I don't see a problem with them.  Words like, fuck, shit, bitch, bastard, ass, exc are all in theme.  We all understand that if I say that you smell like ass I am probably not saying that you smell like a four legged animal.  The literal definition might not be exact, but we fully understand the more common popular definition.  So long as no one is threatening to bust a cap in anyone's ass, I see nothing wrong with using common curses.

[Boggis]

If are looking for a curse that is one step down from the real thing, then go ahead and go with feck.  However, fuck is the real thing when it comes to crudeness and vulgarity.  I see no reason to limit yourself to something weaker.

I was always under the impression that feck was the 'real thing' when it comes to vulgarity on Zalanthas. A meeting with any 'rinther will generally hear their speech punctuated by feck pretty often and I wonder if 'rinthers are ones to tone down their language?

[Rindan]

I was always under the impression that feck was the 'real thing' when it comes to vulgarity on Zalanthas. A meeting with any 'rinther will generally hear their speech punctuated by feck pretty often and I wonder if 'rinthers are ones to tone down their language?

I tend to disagree.  Everyone feels safe using the word feck.  Your noble guard captain type doesn't shrink at using the word feck.  He is a lot more careful about the usage of the word fuck.  I think that it is more our real world inhibitions that make us shrink back a little from using such curses.  Fuck is already naturally crude and somewhat taboo, why try and reinvent the wheel?  It is a personal choice, but I personally think that if you are going for crudeness and vulgarity, fuck beats feck hands down.

[Kronus]

When I'm playing a fouler-mouthed character, I still try to tone down my language a little bit and at least keep it away from rl vulgarity. Mainly, I do this out of respect for the other players who may or may not want to be bothered with seeing those kinds of words on their screen.
I also do it because we've got 13 year old kids playing on Arm, and yes, they've heard all the words before. They've probably seen porno before too, but that doesn't mean I'd feel right mudsexing with them.

It's my feeling that you don't really need to use 'fuck' or 'cunt' or whatever word in your dialogue to give some weight to it. Much like how most movies will imply sex with a kiss and a fall onto the bed followed by a fade to the morning after rather than getting close-up penetration shots, I don't see anything wrong with implying stronger language through the use of RL 'safe' words like feck, arse, shite, etc.

It doesn't bother me personally, but I do kinda feel that people who insist on using RL profanity in their emotes in the game aren't really being as considerate of their fellow players as maybe they should.

[Rindan]

When I'm playing a fouler-mouthed character, I still try to tone down my language a little bit and at least keep it away from rl vulgarity. Mainly, I do this out of respect for the other players who may or may not want to be bothered with seeing those kinds of words on their screen.
I also do it because we've got 13 year old kids playing on Arm, and yes, they've heard all the words before. They've probably seen porno before too, but that doesn't mean I'd feel right mudsexing with them.

It's my feeling that you don't really need to use 'fuck' or 'cunt' or whatever word in your dialogue to give some weight to it. Much like how most movies will imply sex with a kiss and a fall onto the bed followed by a fade to the morning after rather than getting close-up penetration shots, I don't see anything wrong with implying stronger language through the use of RL 'safe' words like feck, arse, shite, etc.

It doesn't bother me personally, but I do kinda feel that people who insist on using RL profanity in their emotes in the game aren't really being as considerate of their fellow players as maybe they should.

I understand the concern, but I personally feel that it is misplaced.  Armageddon in generally has a relatively old player base compared to most MUDs.  Further, the game makes very little attempt to censor itself in other fields beyond language.  Truly, this is a game where slavery is completely acceptable and gladiatorial spectacles are common.  Racism is something that is actively encouraged among the player base.  When compared to things like racism, violence to amuse the masses, and slavery, it seems like vulgarity is only a minor offense compared to these things.  

When I play, I generally assume that the game is rated R.  I assume that anyone else that is playing realizes this and is prepared to accept the realities associated with that.  It seems to me that anyone who would play a game with such offensive themes would also take little issue with some extra vulgarity thrown in for flavor.  Armageddon is a very dark and edgy game at times in terms of its themes and I personally think that that is one of Armageddon's greatest virtues.  Anything that can help contribute to its darkness and the general feeling of discomfort that Armageddon can some times inspire with its themes seems like a good things to me.

[John]

I personally wouldn't let my brother play Armageddon. And when I make gruff char's I hope ICly people won't think he isn't gruff enough (yeah, as if I would anyway pfffffffffft). I use feck because it feels Zalanthan (silly I know  :roll:). But I personally am all for people using fuck, cunt, etc. infact, fuck's the only swear word I alter.

I wouldn't recommend anyone below 15 play this, especially my brother (whose 11). But I understand we do have them, and I think it's good people worry about it, but as Rindan pointed out (not that she was saying this mud OOCly encourages them) it is kinda a moot point.

[mog]

However, fag would probably be best referring to faggot, or.. a bundle of sticks.

"I'll pay 30 sid for a faggot."

That or a tasty meat snack.

[mog]

Fucking people with your bullshit.

How many times in the real world have you referred to a 'female dog' as a 'bitch'?  ..a cigarette as a 'fag'?  Puhleaze.

Speak for your own culture.  I come from a family of dog breeders and we use bitch in its correct form all the time.  Also fag is the common way to refer to a cigarette in most of the UK.

Out of interest a fag is also the common term for a young male servant (especially in English public schools) and is probably the source of the homosexual insult.

[Midland]

I see nothing wrong with the word bitch either.  I would say that it is safe to assume that bitch refers to a female 'tok.  Considering how ugly and vicious a 'tok is, that probably caries even more weight then bitch does in our society.

OHoh, thanks for the new perspective on that saying, Rindan!!!  I think every female should take bitch as a compliment. It's a male or female thinking you are as vicious and ugly as a female gortok.  Ugly could actually be taken as not being a piece of fluff that gets run over.

The stumpy dwarf looks at you, eyes narrowing as he shouts in sirihish, "Fuck you bitch!!"

With a slow curling of her lips as she bares her teeth, the statuesque, dark-haired woman says in sirihish, "Dont you forget I am the bitch, you short, knotted hair dropped from Ruk's pitted ass. Fuck you? I wouldnt let you lick the grit out from between my toes."

[Lazloth]

Fucking people with your bullshit.

How many times in the real world have you referred to a 'female dog' as a 'bitch'?  ..a cigarette as a 'fag'?  Puhleaze.

Speak for your own culture.  I come from a family of dog breeders and we use bitch in its correct form all the time.  Also fag is the common way to refer to a cigarette in most of the UK.

Apologies for posting two sheets into the wind, but even in my delirium, I'll stand by those convictions.  To posit that there is "a correct form" when detailing pragmatic connotation is silly.  Verbiage undergoes semantic shift constantly; from the top of my head:
sucker: origin in an animal weaned too early, now refers to a gullible person;
freak: origin in a style of dance, now refers to social abnormality;
tease: origin in a mode of hairstyle, now connotes leading someone on.

While maintaining the 'original' semantic sense in a given discourse is perfectly understandable, I would think that all of these terms, bitch included, more than likely denote the derogatory meaning (assuming you are not talking to another dog breeder, or what-have-you).  Finally, I think it's directly plausible that Zalanthan etymological evolution underwent similar patterning, and 'bitch' (as Rindan,et.al. have said) can find a home in speech.

[Anonymous]

Bitch is problematic to me.  It has only recently, the last decade or so, become a term applicable to men.  I've always understood this to have been the time it takes for a new meaning for a term to circulate through the population.  In this case bitch being applied to man came from its use in prison, IMHO, and eventually became part of our vernacular.

"Fuck you, Bitch" is only a few degrees removed from a PC talking about 'bringin' down the hizzy wit' mah mad bling bling', or 'sucks to be you' and other more recent terms.

I'd rather see people come up with a unique Zalanthan term to replace its use.

I don't blow a blood vessel when people use that term in that way, I just don't particularly like it.  I also know that having no problem with 'fuck' but not liking 'bitch' is somewhat of a subjective choice, but I'm nothing if not a riddle wrapped in an enigma shrouded in mystery.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

CRW, I'd have to agree. I don't use 'bitch', but I figure everyone else is welcome to use it. I dislike it, but I won't 'pop a blood vessel'. I don't use 'hell', and I think 'the hell-pits of Suk-Krath' is a fairly lame justification for it's use. I could see a Sun Cleric talking about it, but not a 'Rinth pickpocket or a Bynner. But, if they feel like saying 'hell' constantly, that's fine with me.

It's a matter of personal choice.

I would, ask, however, for people to modify real-life curses in order to make them sound more Zalanthian. For instance, instead of just saying 'damn', you could say 'Krath-damned'. Just a small change. And then there is the whole 'fuck' and 'feck' issue, which I personally think is pointless. Others may disagree.

One thing though... I wouldn't have your character change his speech halfway through his life, randomly. If you're character's favorite insult is 'and your mother is a nutty old 'Nakki whore!', then why change it if he's been saying it for twenty eight years? Sure, 'nuts' don't exist on Zalanthas, and 'prostitute' may be more politically correct, but I don't think you'll be doing anyone any serious emotional harm in continuing the phrase. Besides, how long can a character with that sort of language live, anyways?  

[John]

Get your faggots. Top-notch condition. Completely dry. Get your faggots. Perfect for burning your meal over.

Back about 12 yrs ago there was a piece of candy called "fags" that were a white stick with a bit of red at the end. Censorship changed the name, and eventually got rid of the red bit.  :evil:

[Midland]

Sure, 'nuts' don't exist on Zalanthas

Nuts do exist on Zalanthas  

[sarahjc]

:shock: Wow! I think everyone and thier mom read this.. Glad I didn't proof read it and left the typo's in...

But I think what you all are saying is that its fine to use ordinary swear words regardless of what a dog may or may not be on Zanthas, and some say Cursing is Ok while others say its out there but the alternate words such as Feck are better..

So what all these muddy anwers are telling me is "Fuck you! Do what you want Bitch.. And expect others to do the same.  

It's just a matter of what your taste is and what kind of roleplay you expect of the game..

[Midland]

Exactly  

[John]

It's an extremely harsh game. I advise you read the consent rule and ask any questions you might have.

In short, you can expect anything to happen, but we do not force people to witness graphical torture scenes nor do we force people to play out sexual scenes. ICly the scene still happens, but OOCly it doesn't. (and I'm sure if you don't want a sexual scene to ICly happen exceptions can be made. That's not an official rule though, that's just player's being considerate. ).

[Cenghiz]

Then what should I do? I don't know so much swear words in English. Could someone (Damn it's really a fucking funny request ) please teach me some swear words. My primitive language, Turkish has so much resources, the people from other countries in my University say. I just can't translate them. Oh ok... It's a weird topic. My all characters are going to be kind I think.

[John]

*giggles*

You had to admit, this is damn funny.

You know what Fuck means right? Well if not it's something you say when something bad happens. (e.g. you just notice someone has stolen your 'sid. In english you go "fuck!").

Well variations to fuck is = damn, shit, krath-damnit!, tek!, god, drov, hell. Sands (very very mild)

Kank-fucker means someone who sleeps with kanks.

asshole = a term to describe a horrible person.

bastard = a term to describe a horrible male

bitch = a term to describe a horrible/moody female.

That's all I can think of.

[mog]

While maintaining the 'original' semantic sense in a given discourse is perfectly understandable, I would think that all of these terms, bitch included, more than likely denote the derogatory meaning (assuming you are not talking to another dog breeder, or what-have-you).  Finally, I think it's directly plausible that Zalanthan etymological evolution underwent similar patterning, and 'bitch' (as Rindan,et.al. have said) can find a home in speech.

I'll start with an initial note regarding the use of bitch in Zalanthas.  I think it is a valid word to use in the environment.

Regarding my refering to 'female dog' as bitchs correct form this was a slip of the keyboard stemming from my scientific background where a lot of words have a 'common form' that being the way in which most everyday people use the word and a 'correct form' which is the defined scientific meaning.

A classic example being the words hazard and risk.  Most people use the interchangably but the correct forms are (more or less I'm not digging out a standard for this):

Hazard - A potential source of harm.

Risk - The probability that any given hazard will occur

I do agree that in common usage the meaning of words alters and that these new meanings can become as valid as the root meaning.  I also tend to agree with the etymological argument for the adoption of words into Zalanthas.  If the root of a real world word or phrase can feasably have occured on Zalanthas, or is so archaic that no modern player is aware of it then it should be usable.

Of course all this is hypothetical because at the end of the day people will just say what they want.

[mog]

Then what should I do? I don't know so much swear words in English. Could someone (Damn it's really a fucking funny request ) please teach me some swear words. My primitive language, Turkish has so much resources, the people from other countries in my University say. I just can't translate them. Oh ok... It's a weird topic. My all characters are going to be kind I think.

As far as interesting swear words or insults go you should teach us some Turkish ones.  Either in translation or in the original.

Want to use an Allundean swearword whilst speaking Sirihish, then stick a Turkish one into the sentance, perfect.