Weather...

[Anonymous]

It used to be that rangers were useful to have in a party but lately they are nessasary else your not doing shit...

Thats fine but its really annoying that unless your a ranger, you can't do anything no matter what...that your stuck in a room or two...that your litterally dependant on another class to enjoy yourself.

Rangers are self sefficiant but that shouldn't make ever other class useless...navigating through storms should be a skill...which rangers get right off the bat and maxed...it should be a long and grueling proccess for others but while they don't get as good as rangers...it should become slightly less of a pain then it is now. If not this at least give some subclass ' the appropraite level of the ability.

I know this have been said before the the reasons playability and its boring otherwise given... but not everyone plays a ranger...and having seen imms change the weather because there wasn't at least one ranger class around, really makes me think its something to consider.

[moab]

There are a _ton_ of skills that are ranger (or other) class skills or abilities that other classes should be able to learn.

This is the strength of the "classless" argument.

However, we have what we have.

My suggestion is that you think about why you feel "bored" and what your character would likely do in that case.  Suddenly you'll find yourself emoting, roleplaying and thinking.

You can, if you allow yourself to be free enough, really enjoy a four hour session alone in a jail cell.  :-D  I imagine that where ever it is your character happens to be stuck can be entertaining if you turn your attention inward and focus on your character.  What would _he_ do if he were in that situation?  Get outta your head and into his.  :-D

Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Oh you'd be suprised what a almost 40 day old PC. Unfortunately learning more about him through thoughts and solo RP  isn't one of them. Even then its always more fun to do then to think.

Don't get me wrong its a nice tip to give to a newbie and hope it keeps him around long enough for someone to find him and RP with him but the weather is preventing me from going out and making RP.

I guess someone like me should have chosen a ranger...it would have been alot easier to pull off what my current PC has but unfortunately for me it was the challenge of the class i chose that has made it a pleasure to play for as long as i have. Its just when i first started playing it couple years ago the weather didn't always get in the way of him going out and doing stuff.

[Malken]

My only grip is for those living in and around the area of Red Storm.. It's such a pain the weather system around there, even tho I know it makes sense ICly.. Sometimes you can't reach it for days, or you can't leave it either. Some sort of NPC ranger group making it back and forth straight from Red Storm to that spot we all know about on the Silt Road would be nice, even if we had to pay, say, 20 'sids or so to be able to enter the wagon.

Say.. A trip at dawn and a trip at dusk.. Wagon comes in, pick people up for a fee, then rides through the storm directly toward Storm's gates.

[Nao]

Oh you'd be suprised what a almost 40 day old PC. Unfortunately learning more about him through thoughts and solo RP  isn't one of them. Even then its always more fun to do then to think.

Don't get me wrong its a nice tip to give to a newbie and hope it keeps him around long enough for someone to find him and RP with him but the weather is preventing me from going out and making RP.

I guess someone like me should have chosen a ranger...it would have been alot easier to pull off what my current PC has but unfortunately for me it was the challenge of the class i chose that has made it a pleasure to play for as long as i have. Its just when i first started playing it couple years ago the weather didn't always get in the way of him going out and doing stuff.

How does the weather prevent you from going anywhere? It's just a bit more dangerous, but that's all.
All the storm does unless it goes to the extreme 'you can't see' is to make you walk into the wrong direction - so? Try again. It works, if you absolutely have to. The only advantage rangers get is not to be blown off, they see about as much as you do - I don't go anywhere near where dangerous creatures could be with my ranger if I can only see one room, either.

[moab]

Don't get me wrong its a nice tip to give to a newbie and hope it keeps him around long enough for someone to find him and RP with him but the weather is preventing me from going out and making RP.

If you think that was a tip for a newbie, then you still are, 40 days or not.

[LoD]

If you think that was a tip for a newbie, then you still are, 40 days or not.

How is this productive to the conversation?  These are the kinds of posts that turn folks off to the community.  If you feel that he's giving bad advice, then perhaps a constructive reply pointing out why said advice might be suspect would be more appropriate than this.  No need for jabs at folks.

As for complaints about non-rangers in the environment; if you're having enough trouble with the weather that it limits your ability to RP, you may want to review your characters motivations for lingering/travelling there.  I've played quite a few non-rangers that travelled extensively, and sometimes you can plan your movements effectively, other times you just need to surrender to the weather and wait.  However, you should be able to RP under both those conditions.

-LoD

[jhunter]

All the storm does unless it goes to the extreme 'you can't see' is to make you walk into the wrong direction - so? Try again.

It isn't really that simple. Since the sandstorm code was changed to do this I've had a pair of pcs that have gotten trapped out in sudden storms. Both times I spent RL hours stuck within about a four room area unable to go -anywhere-.

[Malken]

All the storm does unless it goes to the extreme 'you can't see' is to make you walk into the wrong direction - so? Try again. It works, if you absolutely have to.

That is so untrue, I wouldn't recommend you try that at all, especially not in an area you know there might be nasties waiting for you *grin* You might end up going up, down, west if you want to go east, then west some more, etc.. It's really unstable.

[moab]

If you think that was a tip for a newbie, then you still are, 40 days or not.

How is this productive to the conversation?  These are the kinds of posts that turn folks off to the community.  If you feel that he's giving bad advice, then perhaps a constructive reply pointing out why said advice might be suspect would be more appropriate than this.  No need for jabs at folks.

LoD - You're right, of course.  
I was frustrated by the implication of his comment - that he had nothing further to learn or gain from PC other than external action.  It also seems that calling something "a tip good for a newbie" some how creates the idea that old-timers are better role-players than newbies and this is quite false.  There are really bad long-time players and there are really good roleplaying newbies.

If advice is good - it's good. If not, it's not. It has nothing to do with being a newbie and suggesting that the advice was "good for a newbie." is a mindset that I don't like.

So I reacted strongly.

[Koala]

Rangers are self sefficiant but that shouldn't make ever other class useless...navigating through storms should be a skill...which rangers get right off the bat and maxed...it should be a long and grueling proccess for others but while they don't get as good as rangers...it should become slightly less of a pain then it is now. If not this at least give some subclass ' the appropraite level of the ability.

I can feel your pain. Sometimes I join your suggestion and wish that there was a navigation skill (available to anyone like skill_watch) that you can learn through your career. However, when I think of the sandstorm code (except the places where you are stuck with permanent storm, which is nasty for your health) I realize that the current code is not that bad. I believe that sandstorm code brings balance to hunting and traveling, which was done extensively and sometimes unrealistically prior to the revival of the code. Also IMHO sandstorm code creates many different RP opportunities, while taking a few away. So, if you ask me, I am pro-sandstorm code, when I am not frustrated by it .

[jstorrie]

If you are not a ranger the best place to look for fun is inside a city. Allanak and Tuluk, conveniently, have large walls that generally block out sandstorms.

If you like to run around in the desert and hunt and explore, you're right, you probably should have played a ranger; that's what they're designed for. Take a look at the class you have chosen, think of what it's designed for, and find some interesting roleplaying opportunities along those lines. There is plenty going on inside the walls of Tuluk and Allanak - I'd hazard a guess to say that more than half of the interesting events in the game generally take place there.

[Saphreal]

My personal opinion on this is that the guild subguild setup we have on armageddon is what defines us from SoI.  I love how SoI is setup, but that's what makes it special.  I would rather not see Armageddon follow suite; I think we have some good things going with our system, and we can make it just as interesting as theirs--just in a different way.

[Majikal]

Rangers are awesome for navigating and getting you somewhere safely, but if you absolutely must go somewhere which involves passing throught he wilderness it isn't that hard to pull off. You just might not get to go exactly when you want to. The weather system in this game works out awesome and it's not hard at all to figure out when a bad storm is kicking up or where a bad storm is gonna be. Rangers are merely a convenience, and if you have the coin or the connection to get one it's a convenience worth having.

[jcarter]

Here are some videos of sandstorms, just so you can get an idea of what they're actually like:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=s25DDGaIrbw&search=sandstorm%20desert
http://youtube.com/watch?v=b72hxhMYx-w&search=sandstorm%20iraq

Now keep in mind each outdoor room is about 3 or so miles. It's pretty damn hard to be able to navigate through something like that for 3 miles, lete alone any more.

[Dalmeth]

Well, one thing that would help with city PCs in the desert is if there were more echoes detailing changes in the weather.  In all cases, a sandstorm is not the sort of thing that just creeps up on you as it is in the game.

[Nao]

All the storm does unless it goes to the extreme 'you can't see' is to make you walk into the wrong direction - so? Try again. It works, if you absolutely have to.

That is so untrue, I wouldn't recommend you try that at all, especially not in an area you know there might be nasties waiting for you *grin* You might end up going up, down, west if you want to go east, then west some more, etc.. It's really unstable.

It's definitely quicker than waiting out the storm, I've tried it with a warrior and got through the storm just fine - with some effort. If there's dangerous critters around, you should get out of the area as soon as your sight is down to one room.

[hcwalker]

I wish that the desert navigation ability was a skill that rangers could develop awesomely over time, but that others could develop gradually to a lesser degree, some more than others.  

I don't think rangers should navigate flawlessy with only a few hours of RL playing time, however they should be clearly better at it than almost anyone from the start and be able to fairly rapidly become flawless guides.  No one knows their way around from the very start, right?

Along this vein, I think that some of the subguilds (maybe scavenger, hunter, forester, nomad, an caravan guide) should have modest, imperfect, varying amounts of skill in desert navigation.

I think this change would be in the skill-based spirit of the game, and although not totally freeing non-rangers to dance through sandstorms with impunity, it might at least give them a bit more independence as their subguilds suggest they would have.  And it would also free up the possibility that lesser degrees of bad weather could occasionally interrupt movement.  In other words, making the desert navigation code a little more fluid and less absolute.

[Cegar]

I wish that the desert navigation ability was a skill that rangers could develop awesomely over time, but that others could develop gradually to a lesser degree, some more than others.  

I don't think rangers should navigate flawlessy with only a few hours of RL playing time, however they should be clearly better at it than almost anyone from the start and be able to fairly rapidly become flawless guides.  No one knows their way around from the very start, right?

Along this vein, I think that some of the subguilds (maybe scavenger, hunter, forester, nomad, an caravan guide) should have modest, imperfect, varying amounts of skill in desert navigation.

I think this change would be in the skill-based spirit of the game, and although not totally freeing non-rangers to dance through sandstorms with impunity, it might at least give them a bit more independence as their subguilds suggest they would have.  And it would also free up the possibility that lesser degrees of bad weather could occasionally interrupt movement.  In other words, making the desert navigation code a little more fluid and less absolute.

I'de figure ANY desert elf would be better than almost ANY ranger at navigating through storms.

[Angela Christine]

I'de figure ANY desert elf would be better than almost ANY ranger at navigating through storms.

I think you'd be wrong.  The desert elves that are good at navigating storms are rangers.  The others stay in camp durring storms.


AC

[Cegar]

Well, wouldn't most of the tribe spend a fair deal outside anyway?

[Dalmeth]

Well, wouldn't most of the tribe spend a fair deal outside anyway?

No, a dedicated warrior wouldn't spend nearly as much time out in the desert.  It's the same thing for a crafter.  They'd spend most of their time in the cam[, village, or whatever.  Warriors would be patrolling the immediate area or training.

Just because they're tribals doesn't mean they're all savages without sophistication and specializations.

[Vesperas]

No, no, no.  No.

The reason that rangers get a greater variety of 'skills' and abilities is because of a lifestyle difference.

Rangers spend their LIVES in the wilderness -- they would make the most effecient scouts or hunters, because they know how the sand shifts - they would what the slight changes in the weather mean.  They spend their time trying to survive, generally.

A warrior, on the other hand, is someone who is conditioned to the art of combat rather the art of survival.  They have probably spent much more of their time thumping someone else's ass than looking for animal scat.

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Going from in-game meaning to 'code', I don't think that rangers are overpowered at all.  There is an acceptable trade-off in what they will ever be able to achieve in return for the usefulness of their abilities.  Warriors are extremely powerful, and that power has been gained through the loss of their versatility in the wilds.

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As for tribals, yes... someone will be acting on close-range sentry duty, training the younger members of the tribe in how to defend themselves, and acting as a rock-hard defense for the core of the tribe's survival.  That's the advantage of being a part of a society where there are societal roles (meaning a sentry will almost always be a sentry) -- you are damn good at what you do.

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In the run down...

If you are writing a concept where a PC has spent their life training in the wilderness, you should pick ranger to reflect that knowledge naturally.

if you are writing a concept for a PC that has had rigorous training all their life, you should pick warrior.

*shrug*  o.o

[hcwalker]

I agree that warriors should get no special advantages whatsoever regarding desert navigation.  

I do not agree, however, that rangers should be the only people who can navigate the desert better than the average joe.  I feel that rangers should be the best at desert navigation by far, but that others might have some modest, varying skill depending upon their subclass or if they are a tribal.  I certainly do not think rangers are overpowered.

In other words, a harsh sandstorm is a gigantic issue for someone without any desert navigation bonus, a significant issue for someone with modest desert navigation skills, and fairly easily managable by a ranger with experience.  And all should develop and improve their desert navigation skill (however slightly for some) over time and with use of the skill.

This might allow for actually making the weather code tougher in a way -- in other words maybe people could be misdirected occasionally with the weather a notch below the harshest sandstorm.  I just feel that the way that it works right now is too black and white.  I think it would be more interesting and realistic if it were more fluid and skill-based.

[Angela Christine]

I don't have a problem with certain tribes or certain individuals within those tribes being good at storm navigation, as long as it is applied equally to desert dwellers of all races.  In particular I would object to desert elves getting it for free if desert humans have to take a certain subclass to get it.  

Add it to the Nomad subclass, that one is an equally good subclass for elves, humans, dwarves, or any other desert people.  It makes perfect sense for some desert elves or desert dwarves to learn Bendune, if that is what their neighbouring human tribes are speaking.

[Djarjak]

I think the real crux of this debate is the perception that the longevity of the storms (although not necessarily their frequency) is a hinderance to RP in certain areas.

Unfortunately, the only advice I can give until someone decides to revamp the weather is to play somewhere where the weather isn't quite so impacting to your character.

Creating an NPC guide would not be impossible, but might not be feasible for a few reasons. The least of which being wandering monsters. It's still something to consider, but I think everyone would rather see an enterprising player create a PC designed for this purpose to make his 'sid.

[Angela Christine]

The problem with a PC working as a guide is trust.   Everybody will guess that he is a ranger, and from that extrapolate on what other skills the PC has.  

-You have the strong chance that a new guide will have clients that intend to get the guide into a lawless area and then try to kill him.  A single newbie warrior can put a world of hurt on a newbie ranger, as can a small group of any guild.  By the time the ranger is experienced enough that this isn't as much of a threat, he probably has developed other ways of making a living.

-Slightly less likely, but certainly possible, is a warrior or other non-ranger claiming to be a guide with the intention of getting clients out of lawful areas and then killing/robbing them.  The non-ranger will have the problem that his marks might guess he is up to something when he can't walk in a straight line for three rooms in a row.   :wink:

-Then there is the possible of a real ranger guiding people out into the middle of no where, and then extorting extra money by threatening to leave them there if they don't get more.  I read a story where some unethical guides working the pyramids would do this, if the gullible tourist doesn't pay extra they would douse the light and run off.  

All of those are things that could legitimately happen ICly, but I think with PCs they might happen more often than they would among the general population.

[Djarjak]

You should be saying all the same things about an NPC.

Don't think we aren't devious enough to consider something like that, or sadistic enough to do it.

[Lazloth]

Rangers spend their LIVES in the wilderness -- they would make the most effecient scouts or hunters, because they know how the sand shifts - they would what the slight changes in the weather mean.  They spend their time trying to survive, generally.

A warrior, on the other hand, is someone who is conditioned to the art of combat rather the art of survival.  They have probably spent much more of their time thumping someone else's ass than looking for animal scat.

There is a distinction on Armageddon between guild choice and role:  there is nothing which prevents a pickpocket from acting as a House guard, a warrior living as a cook, a ranger entertaining masses with song.  Certain collections of skills will make for a more viable toolkit, but "outdoors navigation" is one of the situations where the model breaks.

The reason that rangers get a greater variety of 'skills' and abilities is because of a lifestyle difference.

A given ranger can live an entire life without once stepping beyond the cityscape, and in another part of Zalanthas, a merchant can reside exclusively within a 3'-square mile patch of silt.  I don't see your argument that restricting this ability as guild-only makes any consistent sense.  Why should someone who (for lack of a more meaningful example) has spent all of her/his life within the confines of, say, the Allanaki bazaar suddenly be able to duck and skirt whipping winds and sand outdoors that s/he never witnessed before?  By that token, where virtually all of a new player's abilities begin at seriously poor levels, why should this affinity be innate?

I enjoy the weather code - I think it's brutal and allows for a real interaction with the world (though certainly could benefit from some attention, like anything else).  What I dislike is how that interaction translates.  [Yes, I would endorse a skill and subguilds with some affinity.]

[Anonymous]

I used to get frustrated about this a lot, but it was always when I wanted to make a hunter, traveller, guide, or raider with badass fighting ability. Both guilds need to make sacrifices and these sacrifices reflect the time each character has spent working on either combat or desert travel in their life up to the time you start to play your PC. I don't think any change is needed. Warriors can still work in the desert and Rangers can still fight in the city. The weather makes it hard, but that's because weather like that DOES make things hard. I believe that anyone who hasn't spent a large portion of their life dealing with desert weather should be totally incapacitated by a storm.

[flaran]

There is a good reason why rangers have this and warriors don't.  If you want to play a character that plans on being out in the wilderness wandering through the storms-- in fact, doing anything that is necessary for your survival that is related to the wilderness, maybe you should have the Ranger class. (Exceptions to this I could think of were miners, salt foragers, and lumberjacks.)