What if....Shops

[Anonymous]

Just an idea but what would happen if only the merchant class PCs could sell goods to shops. Every other class would basically be left with:

1. Make a deal with a PC merchant
2. Get a Job with a mechant or noble house
3. Find other "jobs"
4. Live off the land
5. Beg.

I am just wondering if this would realistically enhance the harshness of surviving as an indy in Zalanthas, therefore enhancing the experience, along with making mechant classes more valuable.

[John]

No. Merchants already have bonuses to selling to shops (broader range of sellable items, better haggling), what logical reason could there be for making only merchant class sell to shops? A shop would be willing to buy an item from anyone who has what they want. And if the person isn't a professional merchant, they can get a better price.

[Majikal]

I don't think that would be a very nice trade off, some people play indies simply because they don't play enough to wanna get involved with a clan or play at off peak times where most clans are empty of life so this might ruin a bit of their fun, though I would say highly encouraging pc to pc trade is a good thing.

[ale six]

Making restrictions like "only merchants can sell to shops" doesn't seem realistic to me anymore than "only warriors can equip swords".

On the other hand I'd be for this if we applied it in a different way, such as improving the haggle skill so that PCs trying to sell things without a decent enough haggle would be really, really screwed in terms of what prices they got.

[Anonymous]

bad idea. For all of the reasons above.

[Anonymous]

I should mention my suggestion is the extreme form of it. Even so i can come up with a couple reasons why in the world of zalanthas "merchant" would be the only ones with the connections and they savy to actually sell something for profit. I am sure if i put guns to your head you'd come up with even more.  

However since its quite easy to make logical sense of almost anything codewise in a fantasy world  i am kinda focused with the gameplay issues.I don't see how this would effect people that are independent other then them being poor, which is what they should be unless they have found other means of making money criminal or otherwise. Most will still be able to survive its just that the easiest means of getting that expensive armour is closed off to them.

The problem i see with improving haggle is that some people(twinks) might feel the urge to actually go out and do more damage to the world inorder to make the coin they can now.

 i kinda would just like commoners to actually be poor and roleplaying surviving as oppposed to choosing to roleplay surviving as a poor person. I know the answer most people have is just go roleplay a really poor person, like a begger, pretend that it isn't really easy to survive in the world. However just like the funnest times in Arm. is when you knee deep in a plot and crap lands on your character's lap whether you or they want it or not, it also be nice if more of the gameplay threw more crap on my character's lap. For example since as a warrior/thug i can't find anyone to sell my three stumps to...desperation will set in and i will either have to mug someone or beg inorder to survive. I know its like saying RP or Die but trust be your character being in deep shit is alot more fun then just pretending to be in it.

[Anonymous]

The point of an NPC merchant is not to ruin the PC merchant's sad little day by stealing his business. The point of an NPC merchant is to serve the duty of the PC merchant when either a) he is not around, or b) he does not exactly represent the market in question.

For example, if you can't actually (in code) craft anything with the hide of a foobar, and foobars are the only thing that joe ranger knows how to kill, that does not mean that 99% of the marketplace isn't covered in stalls, tents, and stands furnished with tanned foobar hide.

By forcing PC merchants to pay for this, and not get anything back for their effort, you're bankrupting the merchants, not just the poor desert slobs.

Furthermore, you're suggesting that, just because someone plays an independent in an area that is not well populated by PCs, or who plays mostly during off-peak time should be penalized ICly with poverty because  a merchant of X house who actually buys what the independent/off-peak player has to sell is not logged in.

This is just an extremely bad idea.

Really.

[John]

Even so i can come up with a couple reasons why in the world of zalanthas "merchant" would be the only ones with the connections and they savy to actually sell something for profit.

Some crafters (regardless of class) already can't make a profit, so this is already represented in game.

I don't see how this would effect people that are independent other then them being poor

Actually it would make them starving as it would add another layer to the them getting coin. At the moment there are 2 layers for a crafter. Themself and the shopkeeper. Each of them has to make a profit and so the newbie crafter is normally the one who gets shafted. If you add a third layer, newbie crafters will get shafted even more. That's the gameplay issue. Another one is if you don't have a merchant class person whose on friendly terms with you (quite likely to happen for off-peakers) then your SOL.

which is what they should be unless they have found other means of making money criminal or otherwise.

I disagree. I have quite often made somewhat successful independant parents in my background and the staff have never called me up on it. There are also merchants with wagons, they can't be that poor, and I doubt they all belong to Houses or are all involved in criminals.

Most will still be able to survive its just that the easiest means of getting that expensive armour is closed off to them.

I disagree. All but the most highly skilled are also going to need to make and sell quite a bit if they are going to afford:
* rent each month (cheapest is 500 'sid)
* food and water
* Spare clothing (and armor)
* Cleaning supplies
* Coin for drinks from the local tavern
* Entertainment coin for gambling

The problem i see with improving haggle is that some people(twinks) might feel the urge to actually go out and do more damage to the world inorder to make the coin they can now.

Damage? What are you talking about?

i kinda would just like commoners to actually be poor and roleplaying surviving as oppposed to choosing to roleplay surviving as a poor person.

Maybe old time players know how to maximize their crafting to spend as little as possible and to sell it to the most profitable NPC, but a lot of us don't. We do roleplay commoners poor and surviving.

[Cenghiz]

If a merchant has a connection, let him have it.. IG!

When you're a warrior, you don't have maxxed out slashing weapons. Same point, no merchant starts out with connections. They form them IG.

And being only a subguild means you won't ever be good at it. It should not mean you won't ever be able to sell it.

I'm an off-peaker for some more time and I'm saying a big "NO!" to this idea. It will damage the game in many aspects. Like...

- Offpeak players will be dead meat if not merchant.
- It is going to be real hard to imitate a merchant. It's already hard with all folks asking questions in Cavilish.
- A magicker with a crafter subguild is a usual must for players who want a solitary mage. I want to be able to play a druidic magicker who frequents into a city once in a month, sells and goes back to his solitude with things he needs.
- Same, shady characters who want to act normal with the subguild's help will be doomed.
- It's unrealistic itself. Why can't I sell if a merchant can? I always thought guilds are not important in ARM.
- Tribals? A tribal wouldn't possibly join a clan and he wouldn't possibly sell to PCs easily. How would he survive?
- Elves? No elf can join a clan easily.

That's all I could think of within a blink of eye. I can't find even one reason why noone but a merchant should sell to NPCs.

[Xygax]

If the suggestion is that only people who have registered as a merchant in a city can engage in legal trade, that seems interesting.

If the suggestion is that only people who chose guild "merchant" in character creation can engage in trade codedly, that seems very silly and arbitrary.

Part of our RP-oriented environment is that your coded guild doesn't restrict the things you can codedly do very much (excluding a few obvious cases, like mages, though even here there may be ways around the "rules).  Someone who has chosen the burglar guild should very easily be able to pass themselves off as anything else, it's half the fun of playing and can be a very necessary aspect of a given character that they be able to emulate another.

-- X

[John]

If the suggestion is that only people who have registered as a merchant in a city can engage in legal trade, that seems interesting.

Agreed. Although if a shopkeeper can only buy from licensed merchants, can PC merchants buy from unlicensed people? If not, then that introduces a barrier for PC-to-PC trading.

[ale six]

If the suggestion is that only people who have registered as a merchant in a city can engage in legal trade, that seems interesting.

Agreed. Although if a shopkeeper can only buy from licensed merchants, can PC merchants buy from unlicensed people? If not, then that introduces a barrier for PC-to-PC trading.

Sure they can, why not? It just might not be legal.

Code Select Expand

The shady guy steps out of a dark alley and opens his long, black trenchcoat.

The shady guy whispers to you, in sirihish:
   "Hey you, wanna buy some hides?"

[Anonymous]

ooo...very good points xygax...I like your version of the idea better making registered merchant.

A registered merchant would be the only ones who would be able to sell to coded shops. PC to PC trade would still be completely open of course. The temperate(or kurac offical) could take care of assigning out licenses, for non-peek time players they could wish up.

Of course a well spoken, well dressed human, would probably have a better chance then a smelly byn type character. Though that, costs, profit percentages given to lincese providers would be at the complete descresion of said license providers.

I think if your character can afford food and water then she/he is doing well enough. Everything extra is probably spent on drinks/whores/spice. I still think people will be able to afford what they need (ex.armour/weapons) just that it will change from buying the best that they can find to buying the best they can afford.

As for off peek time players assuming they can't live off the land or get a licence to sell or find any other means of getting the nessasary sid to buy basic nessesities then yeah they would be in a pickle...for the most part they would be doomed to a slow agonizing death that only Armageddon could provide. Its not a bad thing just a cool fact of the game...however they could still wish up and ask to roleplay begging or mugging i would assume.

Aside from promoting PC to PC trading and reducing overall sid in commoners pockets, it would greatly improve the value of small "quest" rewards usually given by nobles. Aside from good RP there would be more in game value to having the "honor" of interacting with the rich folk basically.

[John]

Sure they can, why not? It just might not be legal.

Code Select Expand

The shady guy steps out of a dark alley and opens his long, black trenchcoat.

The shady guy whispers to you, in sirihish:
   "Hey you, wanna buy some hides?"

Still has an extra barrier for PC to PC trading.

[John]

I think if your character can afford food and water then she/he is doing well enough. Everything extra is probably spent on drinks/whores/spice.

IMO your average commoner has an apartment (or works for a House/Byn/Militia). The whole "living out of your backpack" happens nowhere near as much virtually as with PCs IMO.

I still think people will be able to afford what they need (ex.armour/weapons) just that it will change from buying the best that they can find to buying the best they can afford.

I have never bought the best I could find.

Its not a bad thing just a cool fact of the game...however they could still wish up and ask to roleplay begging or mugging i would assume.

Obviously not an off-peak player. Making off-peak players impossible to play all but a small amount of roles isn't "a cool fact." It sucks. We're already limited as is. Don't limit us further. Having said that, having to buy a license wouldn't limit off-peakers. I just took issue with your dismissive attitude towards limiting roles even more for off-peakers

[Jherlen]

I think if your character can afford food and water then she/he is doing well enough. Everything extra is probably spent on drinks/whores/spice.

IMO your average commoner has an apartment (or works for a House/Byn/Militia). The whole "living out of your backpack" happens nowhere near as much virtually as with PCs IMO.

This is inconsistent with the idea that most commoners tend to make about 300 sid per year, which I had thought was a fairly widely accepted number. Apartments alone are usually at least 500 sid per IC month on the low end. Unless VNPC commoners have some kind of special vnpc discount.

Optimally, I'd like to see PC-to-PC trading be someone's first best choice, with selling stuff off to NPCs a distant second, only if they can't find a PC to sell to.

I think this could be accomplished by making PC crafters have more crafting options, as well as adding crafting recipes to more of the Merchant House wares, so the PCs in those houses can actually seek crafters and supplies to make their orders, rather than just having them loaded. If Amos Salarr can take your hides and bones and turn them into Salarri Superarmor Version #1267, which he can sell for 1000 sid, he'll probably be happy to pay you 100 sids for the supplies. If the npc at the shop will only give you 50 if you haggle well, problem solved.

I also liked the idea of making haggle more necessary to turn a profit from npc shopkeepers. I didn't really understand the argument that doing that would cause more "damage".

Ultimately I think the core issue here is that some people think it's too easy to make money as an independent if you know what you're doing. I'd agree with that and I'd be all for changes to either 1) diminish that or 2) at least make it so the people are getting rich through PC interaction and not npc shops.

[Anonymous]

ditto on the annual salary.

If there's no way for you to sell hides to earn the money to pay for the license, you're SOL from the point of login.

Especially if merchanting licenses are still like 250 obsidian.  That's nothing to a Kadian, but for a starting character who has to acquire a weapon and, ideally some water and starting food-- also given the assumption of a 300 sid per year salary...

I think the numbers would need to be reviewed for something like that to work.  If NPC merchants will only -purchase- from people who are registered as merchants in the city, you're pretty much guaranteeing that 80% of all trading is occurring "black market". Unless you enforce that, and bottleneck all economy in the game, the focus on legitimate trade then loses all it's teeth.

Think about all the trading going on in tribal markets, for an example.  What tribal is going to have enough sid laying around to formally register as a merchant?

[Delirium]

I think if your character can afford food and water then she/he is doing well enough. Everything extra is probably spent on drinks/whores/spice.

IMO your average commoner has an apartment (or works for a House/Byn/Militia). The whole "living out of your backpack" happens nowhere near as much virtually as with PCs IMO.

This is inconsistent with the idea that most commoners tend to make about 300 sid per year, which I had thought was a fairly widely accepted number. Apartments alone are usually at least 500 sid per IC month on the low end. Unless VNPC commoners have some kind of special vnpc discount.

I think 300 sid per year is way too low.  300 sid per month sounds more accurate.

VNPC commoners in Zalanthas would usually have an entire family in that 500 sid apartment.  If Amos, Jane, Jane's sister Janet, Amos's cousin Joe, and Amos & Jane's sole surviving kid John are all living in that apartment bringing in 100 'sid a month, that's 500 coming in.  If the apartment costs 500 sid that's every single sid going toward the apartment rent.  

If they're bringing in 300 sid per month, that's 1500, but wait, 500 of that goes to rent. Flour, fruit, and the occasional splurge on meat, enough to last an entire month, will cost at least another 500 from the grocer's.  Then you have 500 left.  Two barrels of water will knock that out completely, unless you get the not-so clean kind, then you might have 100 or 200 left over as a buffer.  You would still be scraping by and barely be able to save anything up at all, but it would be survivable.

We can try to say "commoners only make 300 sid a year" until we're blue in the face, but considering the actual prices of things in-game; i.e. flour, water, ale, clothing, apartment rents, there's no way they'd survive on that.

[Anonymous]

I really didn't mean to sound dismissive of off-peek player, i tend to be one myself.

I would estimate people make anywhere from 50-300 sid a month actually. Sometimes its enough to survive sometimes its not, only people making 300+ are the people working for houses and those are usually 'elite' jobs that the general masses don't get. Usually in game it seems the houses are always trying to recruit members but really (this was a while ago opinions might have changed) Icly your super lucky to land a job with a house and get steady pay.I usually choose who i am going to try work for at character creation or be an indy and try to stick with the decision to enforce that concept.

Also just because the apartment we can rent code wise for our toons cost 500 sid/ month to rent doesn't mean there aren't worse..err cheaper places to live. Also cleaning and eatting every day is for the rich. :wink:

Even as indy non-ranger, i find i have to try very hard to actually remain from getting rich, its even harder if i have skin or a crafting skill on my character and want to train it realistically. Course i will eventually find a corpse (I LOVE FINDING CORPSES, you never know whats inside ) and that makes $$$. There is only so much spice my chars can snort and so much booze it can drink and he eats like a noble and still has plenty of $$ saving up over time.I can only imagine what it would be like if a person was just hording coin. I've tried selling through PCs and they just tell me to go sell at shops. :cry:

The hardest part of getting a license would be convincing the templar you deserve one, he could grant you it for an ic month, see if your able to make any money and charge you at the end for a  percentage of your profits and maybe extra for renewal or like i said completely at the templars discretion.

Truthfully my poorest chars have been those that work for houses and thats just wrong from an IC point of view. The main focus of most commoners in zalanthas is trying to survive in a harsh world, I truely feel that most indy players get deprived of this wonderful and challenging experience by having too much sid thrown at them too fast. Again i don't mind getting rich with an indy i'd just love it if it was through RPing with other PCs

[MorganChaos]

No.

[John]

Again i don't mind getting rich with an indy i'd just love it if it was through RPing with other PCs

Then don't sell to NPCs. Seems simple to me.

[Hymwen]

Noone would ever work for 300 'sid a year... that's nuts. There's what, 600-something days in a Zalanthan year? Who would do any kind of work for half a 'sid per day? You'd have to work for 60 days to earn enough for a mug of ale in the Bard's Barrel.

Personally, I do think that wages in general are on the low side. But some jobs allow you to make extra 'sid through commissions, allowing you to work on the side and things like that, so while you can still earn a fair living from most jobs, I think it's silly that the core paycheck doesn't make up for most of what your PC will earn in a month/year.

The reason that independants can become so rich is that the ways of making money (which almost exclusively requires leaving the gates of your city, something that almost every job I've heard of disallows) are so easy and with nearly limitless supply. Kill a beast and skin it, you'll get food, a skin that you can sell for sometimes more than 50 'sid, bones and other crafting materials. You can go mining and rake in hundres of 'sid per RL day. Salt grebbing with a high forage skill? You can bring in a good 300 'sid per run! And I think most prices reflect that income, not the guy who makes 200-300 'sid per month, who can barely afford the cheapest room available in the city.

[Dre]

Again i don't mind getting rich with an indy i'd just love it if it was through RPing with other PCs

Then don't sell to NPCs. Seems simple to me.

Truthfully i kinda hate that logic, having to pretend...I mean for the most part the standard of roleplaying in this game is great but its even better when the code(or lack there of) supports that standard.

There are a ton of ways for an indy to make coins, too much coin too fast. And this is without twinking...without going out there and killing every animal you can find or forage/cutting trees/crafting for hours on end. Btw doing this is ICly causing "damage" since zalanthians are eco-aware.

The best coded skill for making sid in Zalanthas should be sirihish.  Unfortunately since there is rarely a need for others to trade they usually don't and that means the person pretending he can't use shops is screwed(Icly and oocly) and that means the code is actually denying that person good RP. i can't tell you how many times i've tried to sell/buy from a person only to get told to use the npc shop. :evil:

[John]

Unfortunately since there is rarely a need for others to trade they usually don't and that means the person pretending he can't use shops is screwed(Icly and oocly)

Well IMO if you're playing a merchant you should be selling to shops extremely rarely. IMO (V)NPC merchants rarely do it, instead selling to customers.

[Jherlen]

For the sake of argument let's say 300 a month then (puts things in line with the lower paying House jobs, at least). I'm pretty sure I'd read somewhere else the number was much lower, but I'm too lazy to search.

Even then, either House wages are too low or it's too easy to make lots of money as an independent, because with decent playing time you could make 300 sid in one or two RL days, as Hymwen pointed out.

I'd like to see the economy scaled to make more sense, where the best and highest-paying jobs are with the Houses. When the super hunterforagers can pull in 1000 sids an RL week on their own, there's less incentive for them to join clans. This isn't in line with how things should be ICly.

Yes, there are tradeoffs to being an indy which might warrant a slightly higher risk vs. reward for them, but I still think there's too much disparity, and I certainly don't think prices should be based around what independents can afford rather than what House workers can.

[Northlander]

The commoner has to make even more than three hundred a month. Flour is ten coin a pop, and to live he'll need a small sack a day with a bit of water. At 231 days a month, there's three grand right there. Food and water from a house is a great gift.

A PC spends a tonne of time virtual, not logged on, and so gets by on far less 'real' coin.

The number of coins one has to carry around is silly, I'd like to see the obsidian go through devaluation and all prices drop with it, and I'd like to see even cheaper food around. I've forgotten what the topic was.

[Angela Christine]

I think some commodities, like food, may be over-priced specifically because PCs don't eat very often.  PCs are able to enter a hibernation-like state where we use no food, water, and don't get tired, get rested, degenerate from poisons or heal from injuries.  In this state they neither spend nor earn a single 'sid, though the rent does run down on rented rooms.  Since a PC may only need to eat 1/10th of what a typical person would need (depending on how much time the spend logged in) they spend more per mouthful to make up for it.


There isn't anything magickal about an independent PCs ability to make money.  The main factor in how quickly an independent makes money is how much time they spend logged in trying to make money.  A player that is logged in for a couple of hours on the weekends won't make enough money to even rent an apartment of her own.  If she is logged in 3-5 hours per day, every day, then she may appear to accumulate a comfortable nest egg quite quickly.  For people that are logged on a lot it is mainly a matter of lifestyle choices, if you spend 70% of your time on economic activities the way a typical Zalanthan really would, then you may become very prosperous -- more prosperous than a typical person.  If you work for a while and then settle down to drinking, spicing and whoring for as long as you can, the way a typical Zalanthan really would, then you won't get rich but you will have a lot of leisure time -- more leisure time than a typical person.

It isn't a mystery, the same thing happens in real life.  You see some story about a military officer with a family that is struggling to make ends meet while he is off in Afghanistan or someplace and think it is a shame that our boys don't get paid enough.  Then you see a military officer who doesn't have a family but instead has sweet duds and a shiny sports car and think he looks like he's getting paid pretty well.  The difference isn't the income, it is the family.  One person can live very well on an income that would leave 4 or 5 people struggling.

PCs usually don't have families, or at least not families that affect game play.  You don't have kids, an old granny, your two nephews that were left orphaned in your care when your sister died, or any other dependants.  No one relies you you for anything, every penny you make you can spend on yourself.  On the other hand you don't have parents, siblings, aunts and uncles or other family members to help you out of a jam or share expenses either.  Those little rooms that go for 500 a month would be big enough for a multi-generational family of a dozen people, assuming that only half the family tries to sleep at one time (some people would work during the day and sleep during the darkness, but others would prefer to work during the cool night hours and sleep during the heat of midday) and people spend lots of time outside the room.  One tenement used to have NPCs to show that people do hang out in the hallways and kids run around all over the building, in effect making the public hallways more like a communal rumpus room rather than just a passageway.

The way the economy works for a PC, particularly an independent PC, the player almost decides how much money they want their PC to earn.  If you want to play a tireless worker who is out hunting or gathering salt from dawn to dusk every single day, then you will make huge piles of cash, and then get eaten and soon be forgotten.  If you play a PC that likes to socialize, relax, unwind and just sit and enjoy a brewski once and while you won't make so much money.  If you play a lazy SOB who likes spice and whores a little much and only works when he has to, then you will be close to the line all the time because as soon as he makes any money he stops working and starts blowing it.

Sometimes people say that it isn't realistic for their PC to deliberately make less money than they can, to which I say, "meh".  People do it in RL all the time.  You see someone highly motivated who is holding down two full time jobs to make ends meet for their family, then you see an equally able person with no dependants who works part-time at one job and spends the rest of their time slacking off.  Some people of an entrepreneurial bent work their asses off nearly every waking moment to get their own business running, while many other people a content to clock 40 hours a week at a regular 9-5 job.  Players and characters find different things enjoyable.  Your character might love to spend a couple hours carousing at a tavern and then turn in and sleep all the way until late morning, if he can get away with it.  But for the player hanging out in the tavern is only fun if there are fun people to interact with, ale does not increase that enjoyment at all, and watching your PC sleep is about as dull as it gets.  A PC that spends a lot of their time generating income isn't necessarily being twinky, it is just that activities that the player enjoys happen to be ones that generate income.  A PC that spends days at a time sitting in a tavern not generating income isn't being twinky either, it is simply that the player enjoys that activity more than the alternatives.



Armageddon isn't an economic simulation game.  The day to day economics are blunted and simplified to give players more flexibility.  Ever play the Sims, where you have spend time every day washing the dishes, taking out the trash, showering, going to the toilet, and many other mundane chores necessary to keep your Sim from becoming a sad sack?   In Arm all that is optional.  You can have your character spend time on chores like that, or you can assume that most of that junk happens off camera, when you aren't logged in.  Or you can actually spend time doing daily chores that ought to be done but aren't required by code.  If you are the sort of person who wouldn't go around in dirty clothes you have to spend a bit of time cleaning them, but it is totally up to you if you want to slowly emote the whole process of stone age laundry care or just type "clean bloodied blood" until everything is back to clean.  Flexibility is good.


Angela Christine

[Dre]

I think some commodities, like food, may be over-priced specifically because PCs don't eat very often.  PCs are able to enter a hibernation-like state where we use no food, water, and don't get tired, get rested, degenerate from poisons or heal from injuries.  In this state they neither spend nor earn a single 'sid, though the rent does run down on rented rooms.  Since a PC may only need to eat 1/10th of what a typical person would need (depending on how much time the spend logged in) they spend more per mouthful to make up for it.


There isn't anything magickal about an independent PCs ability to make money.  The main factor in how quickly an independent makes money is how much time they spend logged in trying to make money.  A player that is logged in for a couple of hours on the weekends won't make enough money to even rent an apartment of her own.  If she is logged in 3-5 hours per day, every day, then she may appear to accumulate a comfortable nest egg quite quickly.  For people that are logged on a lot it is mainly a matter of lifestyle choices, if you spend 70% of your time on economic activities the way a typical Zalanthan really would, then you may become very prosperous -- more prosperous than a typical person.  If you work for a while and then settle down to drinking, spicing and whoring for as long as you can, the way a typical Zalanthan really would, then you won't get rich but you will have a lot of leisure time -- more leisure time than a typical person.

It isn't a mystery, the same thing happens in real life.  You see some story about a military officer with a family that is struggling to make ends meet while he is off in Afghanistan or someplace and think it is a shame that our boys don't get paid enough.  Then you see a military officer who doesn't have a family but instead has sweet duds and a shiny sports car and think he looks like he's getting paid pretty well.  The difference isn't the income, it is the family.  One person can live very well on an income that would leave 4 or 5 people struggling.

PCs usually don't have families, or at least not families that affect game play.  You don't have kids, an old granny, your two nephews that were left orphaned in your care when your sister died, or any other dependants.  No one relies you you for anything, every penny you make you can spend on yourself.  On the other hand you don't have parents, siblings, aunts and uncles or other family members to help you out of a jam or share expenses either.  Those little rooms that go for 500 a month would be big enough for a multi-generational family of a dozen people, assuming that only half the family tries to sleep at one time (some people would work during the day and sleep during the darkness, but others would prefer to work during the cool night hours and sleep during the heat of midday) and people spend lots of time outside the room.  One tenement used to have NPCs to show that people do hang out in the hallways and kids run around all over the building, in effect making the public hallways more like a communal rumpus room rather than just a passageway.

The way the economy works for a PC, particularly an independent PC, the player almost decides how much money they want their PC to earn.  If you want to play a tireless worker who is out hunting or gathering salt from dawn to dusk every single day, then you will make huge piles of cash, and then get eaten and soon be forgotten.  If you play a PC that likes to socialize, relax, unwind and just sit and enjoy a brewski once and while you won't make so much money.  If you play a lazy SOB who likes spice and whores a little much and only works when he has to, then you will be close to the line all the time because as soon as he makes any money he stops working and starts blowing it.

Sometimes people say that it isn't realistic for their PC to deliberately make less money than they can, to which I say, "meh".  People do it in RL all the time.  You see someone highly motivated who is holding down two full time jobs to make ends meet for their family, then you see an equally able person with no dependants who works part-time at one job and spends the rest of their time slacking off.  Some people of an entrepreneurial bent work their asses off nearly every waking moment to get their own business running, while many other people a content to clock 40 hours a week at a regular 9-5 job.  Players and characters find different things enjoyable.  Your character might love to spend a couple hours carousing at a tavern and then turn in and sleep all the way until late morning, if he can get away with it.  But for the player hanging out in the tavern is only fun if there are fun people to interact with, ale does not increase that enjoyment at all, and watching your PC sleep is about as dull as it gets.  A PC that spends a lot of their time generating income isn't necessarily being twinky, it is just that activities that the player enjoys happen to be ones that generate income.  A PC that spends days at a time sitting in a tavern not generating income isn't being twinky either, it is simply that the player enjoys that activity more than the alternatives.



Armageddon isn't an economic simulation game.  The day to day economics are blunted and simplified to give players more flexibility.  Ever play the Sims, where you have spend time every day washing the dishes, taking out the trash, showering, going to the toilet, and many other mundane chores necessary to keep your Sim from becoming a sad sack?   In Arm all that is optional.  You can have your character spend time on chores like that, or you can assume that most of that junk happens off camera, when you aren't logged in.  Or you can actually spend time doing daily chores that ought to be done but aren't required by code.  If you are the sort of person who wouldn't go around in dirty clothes you have to spend a bit of time cleaning them, but it is totally up to you if you want to slowly emote the whole process of stone age laundry care or just type "clean bloodied blood" until everything is back to clean.  Flexibility is good.


Angela Christine

Hmm...You have a knack for writing these very long seemingly well thought out posts, a post like this would have taken me 30-45 mins yet i have a feeling your a fast typist and have an amazing ability to put your thoughts directly into words so it takes you less then 10 mins...anyways i just think its really cool..

However while you make good points, you are trying to justify solo indy PC's making alot of coins in respect to the average commoner and i don't agree with you on it. I personally believe that family units survive better and are in economically better shape then a solo indy of any profession would be. I really think the code allows us to be more economically successful then ic realistactic we should be.

You are correct this is not an economic sim, this is a roleplaying game..and as one Imm once said and i quote losely 'when looking at any new code we ask ourselves how this would code enhance roleplaying'.
By restricting people from using the sell code we get:

Pro
-More PC to PC trading and therefore more potiential for RPing
- Less sid in the hands of players, whether or not Imm/players see this as a good thing i don't know.
-Almost all PCs should still be able to make enough coin to survive (eat and drink), anything extra will most likely have to be done through PC to PC interaction

Con
- Some indy off peek players may suffer extreme proverty with certain class/sub class combos, or not be able to survive at all
-Activity oriented people like myself, might be faced with the tasks of finding licenced buyers first before being able to sell the goods from my activities
-This is quite a change and some players not being able to easily and readily make sid might annoy and fustrate them.

At the end of the day we just need to ask ourselves this question:

How does a character being able to make as much coin as they wants without any PC interaction enhance roleplaying in the game?

Truthfully i don't know if preventing people from selling to shops is the answer or if making it harder to get rich is good for roleplaying..All i know is the i wish PC to PC trading was promoted more since haggling with PC is damn fun RP.

[Angela Christine]

Hmm...You have a knack for writing these very long seemingly well thought out posts, a post like this would have taken me 30-45 mins yet i have a feeling your a fast typist and have an amazing ability to put your thoughts directly into words so it takes you less then 10 mins...anyways i just think its really cool..

Thanks.  Actually I'm a fairly slow typist (around 40 WPM at best) and the long posts usually take me more than an hour.  But since I usually have the TV on at the same time it isn't clear exactly how much time is going to which activity.

How does a character being able to make as much coin as they wants without any PC interaction enhance roleplaying in the game?

I know it sounds like it should be a problem, but I don't think it actually turns out to be a problem that often.  One of two things happen:

1)  PC gets eaten while mining sid, salt, or stones, hunting, collecting wood, gathering plants, or whatever other isolated activity he can do to make money "without any PC interaction".  His bank account goes *poof* and has no affect on the PC world.  His corpse may or may not be found by a PC, if found can provide an economic boost to the finder, but generally not enough to set the world on its ear.

2)  The urge to accumulate wealth burns itself out.  Within a few weeks, a few months at the outside, you have everything that slight wealth can buy you.  You have the "look" you want.  You have a decent, but not fancy, set of gear.  You have a good mount, and probably a backup or pack animal.  You have the kind of tools and weapons you wanted, including those oh-so-expensive missile weapons if that's what you are into.  You have your own apartment, which you have added a few personal touches to.  Your own tent if you are an independent outdoorsy type.  You have accumulated cures for the most common poisons.  You have a couple sets of clothing/armor/disguises for different occasions, if that is important to you.   At this point there aren't any more short term cash goals.  Being able to buy house or wagon is still a long way off, and it takes money as well as contacts to do it.   If you want fancier armor it likely be upwards of 1000 sid a piece, and you will have to suffer PC interaction to special order it -- and you probably know that having fancy or unique gear will make you a target for unsavory types.  You have been around long enough that people are starting to notice you, and seek you out.  You are beginning to realize that non-stop crafting, hunting or gathering by yourself is really, really dull.

It may not enhance roleplay, but it doesn't actually harm it either.  The people who make money with little PC interaction are basically turning themselves into NPCs, and cause no more harm than all the other NPCs.  It gives people something to hook into, and later on they may expand to a more inclusive style of play.


Personally I like to play a new character for about 3 RL weeks before I join a clan or try to get into deep interaction.  Unfortunately that means that most of my PCs don't live 3 weeks.     I like to have stories to tell that I actually experienced, rather than crap I wrote up in my background.  I like to have a bunch of casual acquaintances before I settle down with my new best friend (my old best friend would have been a VNPC).  I like to be established and have a really good handle on my character before I get deeply involved with other characters.  (Not incidentally, the three-week delay also gives me a good chance to see what other characters are active in the same times and places as me, so I don't mistakenly get trapped by joining a group where I'm never going to see other PCs.)  And I have a few thousand in the bank, probably 2000-10000, just in case something comes up unexpectedly.  Not enough money to buy anything at the average Kadian auction, but enough to bribe my way out of a hole or recover from a robbery.





I think it would be very difficult to keep established players from getting unusually wealthy if they want to, without making it nearly impossible for new players' PCs to survive at all.  An amazing number of newbies seem to resort to selling their own clothes to stave off starvation, so apparently they find that it is quite difficult to make a living, much less get rich.  Unnecessary wealth probably doesn't damage the experience for anyone but the anachronistically-middle-class guy himself.  In the long term I think that making it seem even harder for newbies would damage game.


Angela Christine

[Anonymous kank with wings]

ooo...very good points xygax...I like your version of the idea better making registered merchant.

A registered merchant would be the only ones who would be able to sell to coded shops. PC to PC trade would still be completely open of course. The temperate(or kurac offical) could take care of assigning out licenses, for non-peek time players they could wish up.

Why not just deduct the cost of the trade license from the noob starting coins and leave it at that? Very few characters are not going to want to sell things they either produce or "find".

[Anonymous kank with wings]

I think it would be very difficult to keep established players from getting unusually wealthy if they want to, without making it nearly impossible for new players' PCs to survive at all.  An amazing number of newbies seem to resort to selling their own clothes to stave off starvation, so apparently they find that it is quite difficult to make a living, much less get rich.  Unnecessary wealth probably doesn't damage the experience for anyone but the anachronistically-middle-class guy himself.  In the long term I think that making it game seem even harder for newbies would damage game.

This makes sense. It really is a difficult scrabble to survive with a new character who wants to remain independent, even if you know what you're doing. Once you're past this stage and start making surplus coin, it just sits harmlessly in a Nenyuk account or is used to generate good interaction, liking hiring people or bribing templars.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

The reason that independants can become so rich is that the ways of making money (which almost exclusively requires leaving the gates of your city, something that almost every job I've heard of disallows) are so easy and with nearly limitless supply.

Yes but this is presumably balanced by the hunters and grebbers sometimes not coming back.

[spawnloser]

Only ONE person involved in any trade agreement needs a license.  One would assume that those people running the 'shops' are licensed.