My rant about dwarves

[Hymwen]

I've been thinking about this for a while. You might not agree, but to me, there's just something wrong with dwarves. The race, both from an IC and OOC point of view, seems to have so many things missing, and a lot of strangeness to it. I've often considered playing one, but I never get around to it because:

:arrow:  The race seems out of place in the world. There's no history, no reason for them to be, they have no place in society and there's no racial atmosphere. Nowhere in the world (as far as I've seen and heard) will you see something where dwarves have had an impact or influence on anything. There's no dwarven community and the only real racial quirk they seem to have is their focus. They just seem to be there because someone thought it would be fun, and replaced the occasional human NPC with a dwarf NPC and left it at that.

:arrow:  The fact that dwarves start out with ridiculously bad sirihish. Like I said above, there's nothing that indicates that they shouldn't be speaking sirihish, because there's no dwarven quarter, no part of any city where dwarves are dominant and there's no inside culture among dwarves the way there is for city elves. So giving dwarves a starting sirihish so poor that you practically can't understand them doesn't make any sense to me, and is a major annoyance and one of the reasons I still haven't gotten around to playing one.

:arrow:  The focus, while a decent idea, just irks me. I can't think of a really good focus, and when looking for help in the documentation, I get a list of foci that looks like an 8 year old wrote them. Seriously, almost every one on that list is either way too easy or way too hard, not codedly/realistically viable, too silly, or something that noone would ever decide to make the goal of their life. Let me take 10 random foci from the list:

50. Breed 'fighting erdlus' and get them introduced into the arena
51. Educate a half-giant
52. Figure out what those damn Drovians do all day
53. Tunnel to the center of the earth
54. Find and eat a piece of metal
55. Become a templar
56. Learn to burrow like an sand-demon
57. Bring back Luir
58. Learn to predict the weather
59. Make a pair of pants
60. Make a pair of shoes

I took a random handful of foci, and every one of them are IMO ridiculous. Breed fighting erdlus? While an acceptable idea, this would require more imm assistance than I think they're willing to give any one player. Tunnel to the center of the earth? Neither coded nor realistically possible. Find and eat a piece of metal? Well, what life-changing event would cause anyone to make that the goal of their life? And so the list goes on and on. Make a pair of pants/shoes? What kind of rubbish focus is that, seriously. The list looks like one big joke, and if a new player sits down and looks at it in hopes that it'll help them find a good, realistically possible and viable focus, they'll most likely either be discouraged or end up making a dwarf with a totally wacky focus. Unless I got it all wrong, a focus is something that a dwarf gets because something in their life has given them an incredibly good reason to do this specific thing. I can't really think of anything that would give a dwarf an irresistable urge to "27: Teach a kank to count".

Should something be added to dwarves? I would start by giving them at least a little bit of racial culture. If they can't speak sirihish worth a damn, that must be because they rarely need to. So there must be some close-knit group of dwarves in at least the large city-states, right? Also, the focus list in the documentation needs a change. Remove the ridiculously lame foci that misleads new players. And maybe a little bit of history? They must have done something in the past, there must be something to dwarves other than a short, hairless human who is obsessed with their single life-long goal.

The result, from what I've seen, is that 9 out of 10 dwarves I've met are played exactly like humans. I've met a handful of good, well-played dwarves and an army of dwarves that seemed like someone just wanted a higher strength and endurance so they picked a dwarf. I think that if the race is fleshed out and the suggested foci is made something other than a list of jokes, we'll see less dwarves who are played just like humans who can't pronounce their own names.

I didn't really know which forum to put this in, so a staff member can feel free to move it accordingly.

[John]

There's no history

They were once a slave race that was eventually given equal rights.

I would start by giving them at least a little bit of racial culture.

Sounds like a good focus to me This is actually something I have wanted to do myself (in-game) for a little while now.

If they can't speak sirihish worth a damn

I did e-mail the staff a while ago about this, they said they'd discuss it. I'll e-mail them back to see if anything came of it.

[Hymwen]

There's no history

They were once a slave race that was eventually given equal rights.

That's not a lot to go on. I did a search through the entire storyline on "History of Zalanthas" on the documentation site, and dwarves aren't mentioned a single time.

[desert_spider_eater]

With the history of Zalanthas being shaped by the players as much as it is, perhaps that's because dwarves were once slaves (non-playable race?) and there have been no earth-shaking dwarves on the political scenes, as they are often filling more practical positions in the campaign.  How about a dwarven general whose focus is to rally an army to crush some large, and powerful enemy?  And is there a Gladiator-esque story regarding the freedom of the dwarven people as slaves?  Can Muls be taught to break-dance?

- Marduk

[LauraMars]

I would start by giving them at least a little bit of racial culture.

Sounds like a good focus to me This is actually something I have wanted to do myself (in-game) for a little while now.

Why would you have to work in game to create a culture for a race that already exists?  As a well-established, ancient race with its own language, dwarves should have a culture already beyond, "we obsess about shit."  I say build it oocly and stick it beneath dwarves to prop them up.

Ninja edit: In agreement with OP, the listed dwarven foci are absurd, whimsical, and jocular.  Which in turn helps create the impression that the dwarven race is an absurb, whimsical, and jocular one.  Short hairless humans that talk like pirates, who obsessively want to teach a kank to count?   Is this the impression that dwarves are supposed to give?  Just wondering.

[Jherlen]

There are plenty of foci that strike me as good ones (and aren't inherently comical or silly), and also plenty of threads that talk about it.

A focus doesn't need to be easily attainable, or even realistically reachable within a dwarf's lifetime. It just needs to be something that makes a good purpose for his life.

Here's a few foci for dwarves I might consider playing someday:
- Become the most famous Bynner ever
- Find a way to tame a bahamet
- Build the fastest wagon ever
- Wipe out all the desert elves
- Learn sorcery
- Cross the Silt Sea
- Father 100 children
... and plenty more

edit: Oh, and in the history file...

1394
The joint forces of the Clear Waters Oasis tribe and the Ironsword clan attack Allanak's obsidian mine, managing to free the slaves. Thrain Ironsword dies in the battle along with several templars. After the attack the Clear Waters Oasis tribe, joined by a horde of former slaves, lay siege to Allanak. During this time, Tektolnes is mysteriously absent.

Thrain Ironsword was a dwarf. I'm assuming his clan was too. Surely some of the older players can elaborate.

[X-D]

There are dwarven comunities.

As to culture, you are right, there is not much in the docs on that. But that is because Focus over rides such. I'm sure that any dwarven comunities have different cultures.

As to history. I have been able to put together from the docs that dwarves are a VERY old race, possibly descended from halflings.

But they, as a race were enslaved, this would cause the loss of history for them. Maybe figure out who keeps the histories in game and deal with them...chuckle.

Though, I agree that there seems to be something missing in dwarven play and such. Really, the docs have not changed for them in MANY years, unlike the other races.

But, I think this is a good thing over all. They have the straight jacket of focus but are otherwise allowed greater freedom of play then the other races.

The only time I've run into any problems is when a staffer (normaly one with MANY years less play then me and no where near the dwarven PC's) decides the limited docs mean one thing and I decide it means another.

Someday though, I hope that we get somebody on staff with a passion for dwarves like Halasters passion for magick.

[Malken]

That sounds like a good idea. Perhaps instead of allowing players to play the halflings once more, a dwarven 'tribe' of some sort, with their own settlement, could have been discovered somewhere in the middle of a playable area. Players and admins alike could help out flesh out the whole culture of said dwarven tribe, their own crafts, their own history.. Perhaps a tiny touch more advanced when it comes to technology compared to the rest of the Known World species.. Less magical, more advanced in other ways.

Unlike desert elves and halflings, this new tribe could at least be able to interact in a non-hostile way with the rest of the playerbase in many more ways than the other two could.

Desert dwarves? Heh. But deep inside, I think the OP has a valid point.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

That is a fantastic post that does a great job of examining the problems with the dwarven race in the MUD.

As a side note, the races and a lot of the creatures in Armageddon MUD are taken from the AD&D campaign setting named "Dark Sun". Dwarves in the Dark Sun campaign are hairless and have a focus, and are not elaborated on in much more detail than Armageddon MUD has elaborated on dwarves in Zalanthas. The dwarven race was implemented a long, long time ago in the MUD, and in my opinion is no more developed than when I first saw it in 1992. Human culture has evolved dramatically since 92, and even elven culture has developed a fair bit (not very much for city elves, unfortunately). Half-giants and muls also seem far more intuitive in how they could be RPed, according to historical docs and roleplay documentation.

Maybe we need a dwarven messiah to come down from the sky and write up a new racial concept for the dwarven race.

[bloodfromstone]

I would rather not see another iso tribe pop up as a response, but I do think that Hymwen raises a lot of good points. Dwarves are really cool in a lot of ways to me. I like the focus idea, but it is hard to bring it beyond "become a great hunter" or "be really famous" or "be better at chopping weapons than any other PC ever" without Imm assistance and something realistically attainable. Plus, a lot of dwarven foci I see thrown around are completely ridiculous. Granted, a lot of them are jokes, but not all.

They should be able to speak Sirihish fluently, in my opinion. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to. The language barrier seems to just be a frustration that one has to muscle through at the beginning of playing a dwarven character, after which they can go about playing the character properly.

All in all, I think dwarven culture needs some work. Some history of dwarven tribes would be good to see, as well. Foci are cool, as long as people don't make them too silly. Otherwise dwarves end up looking like Ed, Edd, and Eddy trying to get jawbreakers or whatever it is they do in that show. That said, I have seen some wonderfully played dwarves, and I fully intend to play one in the future. I like the race, but I do agree it could use some work.

[Synthesis]

Regarding the dwarven place in history:

First, I can think of at least 2 dwarves who made Zalanthan history, right off hand.

Second, much akin to Earth history, only major players make the history books.  On Earth, this means national-level politicians holding single-seat positions:  monarchs, prime ministers, presidents, dictators-for-life, etc.  On Zalanthas, this means sorceror kings, their sorceror challengers, and Dragons.

Third, dwarves (as far as I know) never existed in isolation.  They've been living right alongside humans for as long as anyone can remember.  They don't deserve any special mention in Zalanthan history any more than erdlus or chaltons deserve special mention, because they aren't really exceptional.  They are, and always have been (again, as far as I know) commonplace.

Regarding acceptable foci:

Really, you should just lower your standards a little.  You seem to have a very strict interpretation of what exactly a focus should be.  Some of my past dwarven foci, for example:

Become the Spymaster of a Noble House
Explore and map the world
Create a mercenary organization and build it to rival the Byn
Become the Guard Captain of a Merchant House
Develop a comprehensive body of herbal and poison-related knowledge

These are all good foci, without the superlative nonsense.  The focus doesn't have to be "Become the most uber spymaster ever," because the "most uber" part is implied in the dwarf's obsessive personality.  If he succeeds and becomes the Spymaster, naturally, he will still obsess about exactly what the best way to be the Spymaster is, and if he ultimately succeeds, then it becomes more of a protective focus...or perhaps it shifts to "have total information awareness in Allanak..."

[Empress]

Some good thoughts Hymwen, especially about the bad sirihish.  The idea of focus doesn't really bother me at all, but some of the examples from the list you quoted do, I agree that the list almost seems like a joke.  The list could probably be broken down into 5 or 6 actually useful examples, or maybe even saying "A Dwarven Focus can range from making a pair of shoes, to becoming the worlds best gladiator, or be as whacky as learning how to burrow like a sand-demon."

[John]

Why would you have to work in game to create a culture for a race that already exists?  As a well-established, ancient race with its own language, dwarves should have a culture already beyond, "we obsess about shit."  I say build it oocly and stick it beneath dwarves to prop them up.

Given there's no player accessible/commonly known about dwarven communities (and Krath only knows if they exist), I'd say it's pretty much fine to say there has been no community. There is the occassional song and their language. But I'd say these are remnants from an ancient past and that for the most part, any dwarf community aspects has been lost to time.

There are dwarven comunities.

If there are any I'd say that's IC info and should be discovered ICly. Unless of course you can point to one in the docs

That sounds like a good idea. Perhaps instead of allowing players to play the halflings once more, a dwarven 'tribe' of some sort, with their own settlement, could have been discovered somewhere in the middle of a playable area.

Now this is something I'd support (although only if it wasn't completely iso. Perhaps it's suffering an important loss of some local resource, and so begins to enter the larger world in order to survive). Although it doesn't necessarily have to be at the expense of the halflings. If I was able to live longer, I'd e-mail the staff to ask to spearhead it.

[Fnord]

X-D's response covers most of my initial thoughts, but I can add a bit. From the docs I see that "the origins of dwarves is unknown", but according to the history timeline, dwarves have been around from the beginning. That leaves a lot of room for development. Is it documented anywhere that dwarves were once slaves? If so, it might be useful to add what happened next, and why dwarves are now integrated into human society. Speaking of which, I agree with the OP that the lack of sirihish to start with is wacky.

Regarding the focus: while the list is somewhat silly, there are so many great focuses to try for, given a little brainstorming. The RP'ing of a focus can be a blast, if you have a chance to get into it.

It sounds like some docs on how dwarves have fit into society throughout history would help many players get a feel for how to play one, and how to interract with them.

[X-D]

John.

It was mentioned by a staffer on the GDB actually in a past dwarf thread...about 3 years ago true, but still.

Though.

Since I am not staff, and I did not say where they may be...or anything else really, you never know, I could be lying or simply not know what I'm talking about. Is saying dwarf families exist IC? They do. If families exist then comunities exist. It could be nothing but VNPC's or a room desc. Again, I have not said, nor would I.

As a derail, I understand where people are coming from on the NON-staff IC info forum nazi's. I've never been told by staff that anything I've said here is too IC, and when and IF staff does say anything on it then I will listen and curb my posting.

[slipshod]

someone above sed:

Perhaps instead of allowing players to play the halflings once more, a dwarven 'tribe' of some sort, with their own settlement, could have been discovered somewhere in the middle of a playable area

Actually, a number of players got together about a year ago to serious discuss a dwarven tribe and work out the details of a concept.  Ultimately, it fizzled out, but if anyone is interested in reviving it, we might be able to dig up the work already done.  I know I for one wrote up some fairly extensive preliminary docs.  

Then again, who is to say all tribes have to be old and long-existing?  Maybe rather than have one turn up or be discovered, current dwarf PCs could start a tribe of sorts now.  We think of most tribes as having roots in the past, but today is tomorrow's history.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Unless this was another group, it was more like three years ago. I spearheaded that, but at the time, I was involved with a character that ended up living for nearly two years, and I forgot about it. When I wiped my computer, I lost the address of the discussion board I had set up, which is a disappointment. There was a lot of dwarven stuff in there, and although it seemed more pointed to a tribe, a lot could be used for culture in general.

I, for one, am very interested in creating a decent dwarven culture. I think that the focus is actually something that would give rise to a culture, despite it. Surrounding yourself with others that understand what you are about when you obssess and who might help you in exchange for helping them is something that makes a lot of sense to me.

You must remember, though, that dwarves are often a prominent example given in Allanaki art of rebellion being crushed. This may mean that Tektolnes would dislike any dwarven gathering in his city or area of control. Certianly there does not seem to be a section of dwarves in either City-state and no coded tribes or centers elsewhere.

That can be remedied, but that takes players, or, as you said, staff.

[Xygax]

That sounds like a good idea. Perhaps instead of allowing players to play the halflings once more, a dwarven 'tribe' of some sort, with their own settlement, could have been discovered somewhere in the middle of a playable area.

Now this is something I'd support (although only if it wasn't completely iso. Perhaps it's suffering an important loss of some local resource, and so begins to enter the larger world in order to survive). Although it doesn't necessarily have to be at the expense of the halflings. If I was able to live longer, I'd e-mail the staff to ask to spearhead it.

It's not this simple.

Re-opening the halflings is a matter of putting a racial choice back on the menu in the login screen.

Creating a new dwarven tribe from scratch would require the creation of a whole new set of docs, the crafting and tuning of a new playable area (or areas) and building dozens of NPCs, objects, buildings etc.

The re-worked halflings were the result of (I think) a year of work at least, if not more, by Sanvean and others.

While it would be great to see dwarves get this level of attention, it isn't as easy as simply deciding not to re-open halflings, and instead create a dwarven tribe overnight.

That said, if you want to submit some dwarven docs, or start working out concepts for dwarven tribes, then please do so.  mud@armageddon.org is always accepting e-mail submissions.

-- X

[RunningMountain]

Well, on the focus thing. I think it's silly that a dwarf has only one focus. When I played dwarves, I started with a relatively easy focus, then changed it as the character grew. For example I had a ranger/hunter in the north and when I got in game his focus was to hunt down a raptor. Well eventually I got my ass kicked by one and kept going back until I killed it, skinned it and I changed my focus to something else.

I think dwarves focus are just something to keep them going in the harsh world. There's no need for them to be pursuing one focus for 60 years. That's kind of boring if you ask me. If the focus is small then you can really develop your character and roleplay him different from time to time as the focus changes over time.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree somewhat with Running Mountian. If staff thinks that a focus should take years upon end to achieve, then I don't agree. I do think they should not change every five minutes or days or weeks, but once a RL year seems a good ratio to me, provided they actually achieve it.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

There's been plenty of dwarven history in the game. Old players will remember a dwarven location too, and what happened to it.

It's unfortunate that the stricture against passing around IC information means that most of history gets forgotten. Maybe there should be a lore page accessible to bards, so that they can sing about these past events.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

With the history of Zalanthas being shaped by the players as much as it is, perhaps that's because dwarves were once slaves (non-playable race?)

Dwarves were free before they were enslaved in the south. There are still dwarven slaves in the south, but in the main they are free again.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

One thing I'd like to see is that a new dwarf character doesn't have to include a focus right away. Instead, maybe an obligation to seek out an elder and derive a focus from discussions with him.

This may give dwarves more of a common direction, rather than strange focii flying off in all directions.

[Kalden]

Haha. Makes me think of a concept: the existentially conflicted dwarf who is unable to find a worthy focus, and thus has no purpose in life.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It's unfortunate that the stricture against passing around IC information means that most of history gets forgotten. Maybe there should be a lore page accessible to bards, so that they can sing about these past events.

I really, really, really support some form of this ideal.

I also strongly support the idea of updating the Timeline with less signifigant events than the ones currently accounted for.

[slipshod]

Wow, I guess you're right, 7DV.  It might have been closer to three years ago.  Ugh, I'm too young to have my life blurring together.  At least I know it's May.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yup ... May.

[Oxidised Lizard]

It's unfortunate that the stricture against passing around IC information means that most of history gets forgotten. Maybe there should be a lore page accessible to bards, so that they can sing about these past events.

I really, really, really support some form of this ideal.

I also strongly support the idea of updating the Timeline with less signifigant events than the ones currently accounted for.

Both great ideas - lore page for bards and/or much more detailed history page.

[Cuusardo]

I agree with having a lore page for bards, with plenty of generally available knowledge to people.  This would help bards out a lot in keeping history alive, and dwarven history would be something I imagine a dwarf bard (as in the Rusarla Circle in Tuluk) would want handy.  In a culture such as this it is word of mouth that keeps history alive.  Unfortunately, people who are newer to the game were not here for a lot of historical events and therefore have issues with this kind of thing.

[Sir Diealot]

I think that the Focus is totally under developed as an idea.

A focus can be 'make a pair of shoes'.  But I've heard of (and gotten) seemingly more logical foci turned down at approval.  One such as 'Join the Guild', which, for a 'rinther Dwarf seems far more involved than making a pair of shoes was turned down.  

Dwarves need to be -seriously- looked at.  They're the red-headed stepchildren of Arm races, from what I've seen, with the least updated documentation, the most ambiguous explanation of their 'quirk', and a racial disadvantage (low starting sirihish) that makes absolutely no sense.

[jcarter]

The only thing I know about dwarven culture is that every dwarf is a warrior and the only weapon they can ever use is the club or some variation of a blunted weapon.

[Nao]

The only thing I know about dwarven culture is that every dwarf is a warrior and the only weapon they can ever use is the club or some variation of a blunted weapon.

You forgot axes for dwarves,m if you wanna go all cliche  :wink:

[LoD]

:arrow:  The race seems out of place in the world. There's no history, no reason for them to be, they have no place in society and there's no racial atmosphere. Nowhere in the world (as far as I've seen and heard) will you see something where dwarves have had an impact or influence on anything. There's no dwarven community and the only real racial quirk they seem to have is their focus. They just seem to be there because someone thought it would be fun, and replaced the occasional human NPC with a dwarf NPC and left it at that.

It may help if the documentation was revised slightly to explain that both the Clear Waters Oasis and Ironsword clans were dwarven.  This is taken from the History of Zalanthas with a very specific reference to dwarven impact and influence when these two tribes liberated the dwarven slaves at the Obsidian Mines before attacking the city-state of Allanak and beseiging it for an entire year.  No other race or group has accomplished such a feat in PC history (as far as I know).

1394
The joint forces of the Clear Waters Oasis tribe and the Ironsword clan attack Allanak's obsidian mine, managing to free the slaves. Thrain Ironsword dies in the battle along with several templars. After the attack the Clear Waters Oasis tribe, joined by a horde of former slaves, lay siege to Allanak. During this time, Tektolnes is mysteriously absent.

:arrow:  The focus, while a decent idea, just irks me. I can't think of a really good focus, and when looking for help in the documentation, I get a list of foci that looks like an 8 year old wrote them. Seriously, almost every one on that list is either way too easy or way too hard, not codedly/realistically viable, too silly, or something that noone would ever decide to make the goal of their life.

The quality of the dwarven focus and its seriousness rests squarely in the hands and imagination of the player.  Years ago I played the dwarf Thrain Ironsword, and his focus was to "Liberate the dwarven slaves from the obsidian mines of Allanak."  That focus had many smaller goals that needed to be achieved before I could ever consider completing such a lofty aspiration.  

:arrow: Recruiting and training an army of loyal dwarven supporters.
:arrow: Negotiating alliances with tribes/peoples to assist in my goal.
:arrow: Formulating and executing a plan of attack.

Each of these steps have many steps within themselves.  Recruiting and training an army is likely a lifetime achievement in itself.  The issues at hand doesn't seem to be a problem with the idea of a dwarf's focus, but rather with the lack of imagination and/or dedication on the part of the players, and perhaps the documentation.

Why do dwarves seem like strong humans?

It was stated that you believe the dwarves you've met seem like humans who just wanted a higher strrength.  Playing a dwarf is hard.  It's not something everyone has the capacity to do because it's almost like having a second job.  Dwarves are so entirely focused on their objective that they have little time for frivolity, relaxation, procrastination, or a myriad of personality traits that should set them apart from your regular human.  The issue is that most people play this game as an "escape" and want to have "fun".  And not many would consider playing a true dwarf "fun".

I do.  I enjoy task oriented, business minded, serious characters that have short term and long term goals they can follow.  I enjoy the no nonsense approach of the dwarf because it's a better fit for my style of play, which usually does not include a heavy focus on romantic relationships, mudsex, indulgences (spice and alcohol), etc...  The dwarven mindset and drive fits me well, and I can imagine why they are difficult for other people to play if they aren't interested in the same things.

If you want to see some dwarven presence in either of the cities, why don't you create a dwarf and work to make it so?  How about a focus of carving out a niche of territory for your dwarven brethren?  Establishing a predominantly dwarven community within one of the city-states?  Convincing the entire dwarven population to move to new territory so they can place 100% focus on their projects instead of having to deal with listless and lazy humans, thieving elves, and troublesome politics?  There are plenty of great focii available and avenues to pursue.

Many have yet to learn that their individual actions can change the face of the gameworld and have a profound effect.  I invite you to take that step and see the world in a different light.

-LoD

[Hymwen]

If you want to see some dwarven presence in either of the cities, why don't you create a dwarf and work to make it so? How about a focus of carving out a niche of territory for your dwarven brethren? Establishing a predominantly dwarven community within one of the city-states? Convincing the entire dwarven population to move to new territory so they can place 100% focus on their projects instead of having to deal with listless and lazy humans, thieving elves, and troublesome politics? There are plenty of great focii available and avenues to pursue.

You know, I think I might. Yeah. I will!

[Ritley]

Dwarves are my favourite type of race to play.

[Bebop]

:arrow:  The race seems out of place in the world. There's no history, no reason for them to be, they have no place in society and there's no racial atmosphere. Nowhere in the world (as far as I've seen and heard) will you see something where dwarves have had an impact or influence on anything. There's no dwarven community and the only real racial quirk they seem to have is their focus. They just seem to be there because someone thought it would be fun, and replaced the occasional human NPC with a dwarf NPC and left it at that.

I agree, basically the only quirk dwarves have is their focus and some differently coded strengths based on their physical make up.  To me it seems there is almost more culture, chatter and rumor surroundings muls then there are actual dwarves.  While I know there is a dwarven history, there is no dwarven niche in games and it doesn't really say anything about dwarves interaction with others simply that if you play a dwarf you basically must be obsessive compulsive about a single thing within your life.  Kind of vauge, and simple it seems to me.  Humans are humans and half-elves and elves have their quirks, and there are even docs on the differences between city and desert elves, which I have always seen as pretty indepth with room for variation and societal influences for those behaviors.  For some reason dwarves have one quirk and it's just there like a wide spread mental illness.

:arrow:  The fact that dwarves start out with ridiculously bad sirihish. Like I said above, there's nothing that indicates that they shouldn't be speaking sirihish, because there's no dwarven quarter, no part of any city where dwarves are dominant and there's no inside culture among dwarves the way there is for city elves. So giving dwarves a starting sirihish so poor that you practically can't understand them doesn't make any sense to me, and is a major annoyance and one of the reasons I still haven't gotten around to playing one.

This has always bothered me to.  There are dwarves that run some mining shops which seem kind of cliche to other fantasy and odd to me that a race that used to be slaves of mining would continue mining maybe it's that obsessive compulsive thing but you really don't see a varierty of dwarves in game or even NPCs, and there are no little niches, elves have an outpost, places in the rinth, even a Bard house that takes non-humans, and half elves have the wild and they are looked down on for mixed blood, halflings, even mantis are mentioned more in history then dwarves.  They just seem like obsessive, stupid, broad little humans.  The point is I don't see a place where they would be so surrounded by the dwarven tongue that they would not know how to speak sirihish.  To me it seems more likely that the dwarven language would have faded out by now.

Even when they were in slavery - they would have had to speak sirihish for their slave owners!

Also I would like to know where dwarves come from BEFORE they were slaved.

:arrow:  The focus, while a decent idea, just irks me. I can't think of a really good focus, and when looking for help in the documentation, I get a list of foci that looks like an 8 year old wrote them. Seriously, almost every one on that list is either way too easy or way too hard, not codedly/realistically viable, too silly, or something that noone would ever decide to make the goal of their life. Let me take 10 random foci from the list:

50. Breed 'fighting erdlus' and get them introduced into the arena
51. Educate a half-giant
52. Figure out what those damn Drovians do all day
53. Tunnel to the center of the earth
54. Find and eat a piece of metal
55. Become a templar
56. Learn to burrow like an sand-demon
57. Bring back Luir
58. Learn to predict the weather
59. Make a pair of pants
60. Make a pair of shoes

The list looks like one big joke, and if a new player sits down and looks at it in hopes that it'll help them find a good, realistically possible and viable focus, they'll most likely either be discouraged or end up making a dwarf with a totally wacky focus. Unless I got it all wrong, a focus is something that a dwarf gets because something in their life has given them an incredibly good reason to do this specific thing. I can't really think of anything that would give a dwarf an irresistable urge to "27: Teach a kank to count".

I agree, some of this foci are ridiculous.

Should something be added to dwarves?

I definitely think so, where did dwarves come from before they were slaves, how did they break out of slavery, what did they do immediately?  Did they form their own villages, did they go back to the city that enslaved them?  Did they wonder aimlessly until becoming obsessive with certain goals?  Why are ALL dwarves obsessive like this?  Is it some kind of natural mental disorder or is it firmly taught to them by other dwarven influence?  It's like lots of people call half elves manic, bi polar etc, and I think for the most part the conclusion has been reached it's mostly a sociatal influence.  Half elves are made fun of etc. Alot of things are learned, like stay away from the people that are disgusted by you.  Is it really fair to just assume that all dwarves have this obsessive behavior just because?  I think dwarves really need some more indepth documentation and a look over.

The result, from what I've seen, is that 9 out of 10 dwarves I've met are played exactly like humans. I've met a handful of good, well-played dwarves and an army of dwarves that seemed like someone just wanted a higher strength and endurance so they picked a dwarf. I think that if the race is fleshed out and the suggested foci is made something other than a list of jokes, we'll see less dwarves who are played just like humans who can't pronounce their own names.

I have drawn this conclusion often times with my experience as well.  Or I've played other things, might as well play a dwarf, which would be why I would try it out.  (Pretty much the only reason.)

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Why not create a dwarf character and make it her foci to establish a dwarven stronghold?

[Yokunama]

Third, dwarves (as far as I know) never existed in isolation.  They've been living right alongside humans for as long as anyone can remember.  They don't deserve any special mention in Zalanthan history any more than erdlus or chaltons deserve special mention, because they aren't really exceptional.  They are, and always have been (again, as far as I know) commonplace.

If this statement is true, why is it that dwarves have little to no understanding of Sirihish? I really do not see any real reason why dwarves should not have a great or full understanding of the language.

[Anonymous]

Has anyone submitted any documentation at all for something like this?

I just sent in a dwarven ghetto area that will at least solve the "how come I can't speak sirihish perfectly" problem for one city...

But if anyone would like to work on other docs (and hasn't already), and wants a collaborator, I guess I'm in. Especially if you think you've got It on how dwarves think/work.

[Bebop]

Why not create a dwarf character and make it her foci to establish a dwarven stronghold?

Because for reasons I expressed in my post there should already be one especially if dwarves are so confined they would not know how to speak sirihish properly.

[Xygax]

Code Select Expand

think Man, I can't believe I just accomplished my focus.  I wonder what I should focus on next...?

think There's really no good place for dwarves to live, is there....  maybe I should make it my focus to establish some sort of stronghold.

think Nah...  there oughtta be one of those already, I'll focus on something else.

think I know...  whores!!!

And thus, in the history of dwarves, no dwarf has ever managed to focus on creating a dwarven stronghold.

Alas.

-- Xygax

[Anonymous]

lol!

That's so going to be my next book:
Afro Whores: The Downfall of Zalanthan Dwarvendom.

[Intrepid]

If the imms are willing to change things around a little, we could have a dwarven
district in each city--maybe even whole villages where the dwarves are segregated.

It would provide some subtle racism between humans and dwarves that is, sadly,
lacking for the moment.

How would you react to someone who appears to have no focus in life?  No goals and
no motivation?  (dwarves toward humans)

Or, from the opposite point of view, how do you react to someone who appears, by
all rights, to have an obsessive/compulsive personality and cannot seem to be
reasoned with?

The two above instances are horribly generalized, but they're examples of the type
of misunderstandings that should be occuring between the two races.  It becomes
even more severe when you examine how any potential comrade views the dwarf's
focus; if the human approves and is supportive, the dwarf may like the human despite
any extreme manipulation.  If the human/other is at odds with the focus, regardless
of how otherwise nice the individual might be, these two will always be at odds until
that changes.

The kind of situations that this would create between the races should create more
racial tension than we're currently seeing.  Elves are dishonest, yes, but dwarves
seem to skirt the edge of sanity itself.  A few of them are downright useful to the ends
of human ambitions.  The rest, though?  They seem to be self-centered and obsessive.

Just something to chew on there the next time you interact with a dwarf.

[Anonymous]

I never thought about the human or elven side of interaction with a dwarf. As a slaver, dwarves are just handy. But you have to make sure their focus becomes what you want it to be, or else it could be months before you get that little effer back on task.

From the dwarven perspective, though, I always figured that the dwarves would be wary about trusting anyone who is not a dwarf, like, at all, because everyone else is, well, mercurial in comparison.  Dwarves are too practical, they don't really think about lying to get what they want.

The key, in my mind, was coming up with good reasons for the dwarves to bother interacting with non-dwarves to begin with. And that was a little harder because of the nature of the focus.

Suppose you base your focus on something that should take you an IRL week to achieve.  What can this be that you don't need staff involvement to do, appeals to the desire for the tangible that dwarves have, takes into consideration the concept that humans, elves, and even half-giants are pretty alien in comparison to a staunchly dwarven mindset, is meaningful enough to warrant the dwarven focus to achieve, AND requires you to interact with these other people?

That's a little challenging sometimes.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I am currently working on a vast project involving dwarves.

It includes a location, cultural difinitions centering around focus, NPCs, items, tattooes, etc. If you have input, feel free to email me with ideas and concerns. I am not terribly interested in sharing the work that I have done so far, so as to preserve IC suprise and the like, but rest assured that I will glean good ideas from dross and credit the presenter when this project is finished.

[Intrepid]

At one point, I had actually written up a dwarven clan that was basically a mass cult
of Nilazi with similar or duplicate foci.  They had different ways of approaching it,
but they were meant to be utterly terrifying as a group because they were all on the
same side and they were all completely obsessed.

I imagine a group focus is the only way you could have a functioning dwarven village
or civilization--but it sure is possible to do once you get the ball rolling.

[MorganChaos]

At one point, I had actually written up a dwarven clan that was basically a mass cult
of Nilazi with similar or duplicate foci.  They had different ways of approaching it,
but they were meant to be utterly terrifying as a group because they were all on the
same side and they were all completely obsessed.

I imagine a group focus is the only way you could have a functioning dwarven village
or civilization--but it sure is possible to do once you get the ball rolling.

Well, no, not really.

About a year back a friend of mine was talking to me about a dwarven tribe (possibly the one a lot of players were involved in), and there were no duplicate foci, but they were very carefully coordinated to make a functioning village.

[Bebop]

Code Select Expand

think Man, I can't believe I just accomplished my focus.  I wonder what I should focus on next...?

think There's really no good place for dwarves to live, is there....  maybe I should make it my focus to establish some sort of stronghold.

think Nah...  there oughtta be one of those already, I'll focus on something else.

think I know...  whores!!!

And thus, in the history of dwarves, no dwarf has ever managed to focus on creating a dwarven stronghold.

Alas.

-- Xygax

You guys are -focusing- heh heh.  To much on this stronghold while I think someone could establish one and it would be cool for someone to do this IG, I think there should already be more culture surrounding dwarves and an IG reason that they are obsessive and can't speak proper sirihish.

[X-D]

Heh, All my dwarves have actually trusted other dwarves LESS then any other race.

Why, because he KNOWS that other dwarves also have foci and will stop at nothing to achieve it.
Sadly, this is because of the way the current rather sparse docs are set up and the fact that currently the docs state that dwarves feel no actual kinship with each other. Something I disagree with but still play along with.

I also made a tribal dwarf. Virtual tribe of course, but My own notes on the subject of the virtual tribe included certain tribal rules. These rules, when applied to the dwarf mindset were, unbreakable. It simply would never even enter into the dwarfs mind that it was possible to break these few simple rules. So, another dwarf of the same tribe was completly trust worthy on a few points.

Things like. A dwarf of the same tribe would never knowingly interfer with another tribemates focus in a negative manner.

A dwarf's focus would never affect a tribe mate or his focus in a negative manner.

And All the dwarves in the tribe have what I call a Meta-focus. And that is to protect and advance the tribe. No personaly focus can go against that and if the meta-focus was in danger then the personal focus was set aside until the meta-focus was stable.

Kinda like Asimov's three laws of robotics, this is the three laws of dwarf tribes.

(edited to clarify a point)

[Malken]

Okay, let's all be realistic here.. Ironsword and Thrain happened, what, about 10 years ago or so? (Wow, I've been playing for -way- too long, heh). That's a -very- long time ago, and we need to stop dropping references to Ironsword each time someone mentions changing something about the dwarves, because, frankly, after Thrain, I don't remember much happening that's been dwarf-related.

Here's my idea: Why instead of everyone raising their hands and saying, "I'll do it, I'll bring the dwarves back into history, I'll raise to the top and be the leader of a powerful tribe once again".. Why not ask the admins if they'd be willing to open up a forum for just this type of thing, changes related to dwarves..

Everyone interested in bringing changes and some type of dwarven tribe back to the game could have access to the forum, we could draft ideas about the history, the background, what they do, what they strive for, what are their long term goals.. Everyone pitches in..

Then when everyone agrees about a draft, we ask the staff if it would be possible to do something like that, and if they do agree, we start pitching in for npc descs, buildings, etc..

So instead of everyone going their own ways, everyone would be working together, this way, if one important PC dies while trying to get the tribe started, then it doesn't crumble down the way it did when Thrain died. This way we also help the staff instead of asking for this and for that. And this way, no one's orchestring something with their buddies via OOC either, the staff would see it being developed from the ground up.

Any thoughts? Good idea, bad?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As I've said before, the project I'm working on currently will change a lot of that. I don't think everyone should contribute in a viewable form, for the simple reason that too many folks will not be suprised and so forth when and if it all goes in as it should.

I like submissions better as an idea.

[Anonymous]

Any thoughts? Good idea, bad?

Only a question... given your own argument, why didn't you just post this in ask the staff? >=D

[John]

Here's what I asked the staff

I'm wondering, why do newbie dwarves have so much difficulty with sirihish? What's the logic behind it? I don't know about other players, but my dwarves tend to interact a fair bit with humans in their background (they are, after all, the most populous race). There aren't any (commonly known) dwarven cities or towns.

Should the average dwarf grow up in the "dwarven quarter" of a city/town? Should they have mainly dealt with other dwarf's when growing up? If not, why don't I speak fluent sirihish?

Here's the reply I got

There was a long discussion on this and I think the consensus was to look at both increasing their starting skill, and working on building up reasons why dwarves would be separate from humans.

[Malken]

My idea was for something more 'permanent'.

Player submissions are great, but they tend to die out rather quickly when someone of importance of said clan dies.

Of course, if the Staff decides to make your submission a permanent clan, that new dwarf PCs can join in and all, then that's great, but I think they tend to prefer for clans to be part of the game for a long while before doing so.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Okay, let's all be realistic here.. Ironsword and Thrain happened, what, about 10 years ago or so? (Wow, I've been playing for -way- too long, heh). That's a -very- long time ago, and we need to stop dropping references to Ironsword each time someone mentions changing something about the dwarves, because, frankly, after Thrain, I don't remember much happening that's been dwarf-related.

That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, though. A few years ago, for example, there was a dwarven leader. After consulting a bard, he organized a sizeable dwarven expedition into the Tablelands.

[LoD]

Here's my idea: Why instead of everyone raising their hands and saying, "I'll do it, I'll bring the dwarves back into history, I'll raise to the top and be the leader of a powerful tribe once again".. Why not ask the admins if they'd be willing to open up a forum for just this type of thing, changes related to dwarves.

Everyone interested in bringing changes and some type of dwarven tribe back to the game could have access to the forum, we could draft ideas about the history, the background, what they do, what they strive for, what are their long term goals.. Everyone pitches in..

Admins have access to this forum, so I don't know why there needs to be another one dedicated to ideas about them.  I'm sure the Imms will agree that IC events are the best way to bring about changes in game because it allows the rest of the world a chance to react/interact to the planned changes rather than everyone suddenly needing to accept a dwarven village or section of town that wasn't there two days ago.

And so that sets a rather weighty load on the shoulders of the folks desiring change with how the dwarven people are situated, perceived, and explained within the gameworld.  And rightly so.  Anything worth having involves some hard work and effort.  For whatever reason, the dwarven peoples have never seemingly been able to carve out a niche for their race within the world/civilizations and there are a few factors.  While Thrain's goal was to free the slaves from the Obsidian Mines, part of MY goal was the hope that those freed dwarves would then be used to create an almost all dwarven community somewhere in the game.  Unfortunately, that never seemed to materialize.

Dwarves Speak Poor Sirihishl

This would imply two things to me; that dwarves grow up in a predominantly mirrukim speaking household/environment, and that their daily activities don't require a fluency in the city's main language.  Arguements will be made that they live alongside humans and have no visible community within which to function efficiently without learning the language.  One of the benefits of not speaking sirihish very well is that dwarves aren't instantly able to interact/communicate with non dwarven characters.  This does remind the players that there is a difference between dwarves and humans besides strength and endurance scores.  It encourages dwarves to speak with one another, or at least struggle if they want to assimilate into the human community and associate with their "human" concerns.

If dwarves began with perfect sirihish, I believe players would more quickly release any notion that their dwarf was "different" and play them closer to a strong, hardy human.

Dwarves Have No Visible Community

This seems to indicate one of two things are true; dwarves are too concerned with their focii to ever maintain a group focus on the community, or the powers-that-be disrupt such organizations at an early stage for fear of what a collective dwarven focii could accomplish.  Humans are swayed by greed, laziness, corruption, decadence, power, and other faults that are balanced by their many advantages.  Dwarves have both strength and weakness within their ability to remain completely focused on an objective.  It allows them to accomplish incredible tasks with efficiency, precision, and attention to detail while it also makes them extremely difficult to deal with because all other matters come secondary.  It also consumes their lives, keeping them from banding together to support a common cause unless that cause somehow furthers their focus or dwarves are somehow able to "alter" their focus.

The dwarven focus may very well be the reason dwarves have not yet formed a community.  This may be "working as intended" or it may simply be a rationalization that has stood the test of time for lack of effort and/or attention placed on the situation.

History of Dwarves

Based loosely on historical events and how they might have shaped perceptions of that region, I would say that most dwarves in Allanak would probably be slaves.  After the attack of the Ironsword and Clear Waters Oasis tribes, and the ensuing riots within the city itself, I don't imagine the authority figures would be all that excited to see another dwarven movement.  What race would be interested in bowing to a statue of a dragon (the Highlord) holding in his grasp one of their own?  While the city-state may not enforce slavery on every dwarf they see, I do think they'd be none to sympathetic to a dwarven "community" forming.

Tuluk, on the other hand, has had quite a bit of support for the dwarves.  I'm not sure how much is considered "common knowledge" and so I will omit the particular events/organizaqtions that support this claim.  However, I will say there has been more than one occasion where the dwarven people were supported or entrusted with duties important to the region.  If any community were to be implemented, I would think Tuluk the most likely location for any such changes to be implemented based on their relationship with dwarves in the past.

I still stand by my suggestion for players to take matters into their own hands and forward any changes through IC events.  Allow the world to participate in the future of the dwarf.  Deciding to create a community out of thin air, or adding a village somewhere because it made "sense" might rob folks of a fair amount of RP and intriguing plots that involve several social and political participants.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

About a year back a friend of mine was talking to me about a dwarven tribe (possibly the one a lot of players were involved in), and there were no duplicate foci, but they were very carefully coordinated to make a functioning village.

I don't see how that negates my point.  I'm referring to similar/duplicate foci, you're
referring to coordinated foci.  Both are great ideas and even complimentary to one
another.

So instead of everyone going their own ways, everyone would be working together, this way, if one important PC dies while trying to get the tribe started, then it doesn't crumble down the way it did when Thrain died. This way we also help the staff instead of asking for this and for that. And this way, no one's orchestring something with their buddies via OOC either, the staff would see it being developed from the ground up.

Or...we could just do it ourselves and not use the imms as a crutch?  So what if it
doesn't have imm backing starting out?  Maybe it shouldn't until we see if the concept
catches on and can survive before bugging them.  And if there is more than one
dwarf clan as a result?  Good!  We have multiple elven and human clans too, each
with differences.  I'd rather see everyone approaching this differently.

[Anonymous]

Let me prefix this by saying:

Zalanthas is not Athas

=/

At any rate, this was a good Athasian Dwarf reference:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:3vJvLB6XkhEJ:www.realmsofevil.net/darksun3e/dwarves.cfm+%22dwarven+focus%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=10

and

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:5ZD8gBkVeF0J:www.athas.org/releases/ds3/races.20021129.pdf+%22dwarven+focus%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=24