Leading plot lines.

[creeper386]

SEE... Sexism should be placed in Arm... Without Sexism things get overbalanced into females favor... It's kind of like the equal rights movement in America, that never ended in equal rights. Woman are still treated way differently, but now they only get the benefits of the different treatment without the penelties...

It's unfair! Absolutely incredibly unfair, both on Zalanthas and on Earth, they should get one or the other can't have both.



Creeper

[Meep]

Woman are still treated way differently, but now they only get the benefits of the different treatment without the penelties...

Do you have any idea of what you are talking about or are you just talking rhetoric you pulled off of some conservative talk show?

I'm sorry to flame but I don't know if you are joking or what. Women, while outnumbering men, population-wise are still considered minorities. A few years ago they were still earning 77 cents to every dollar men made. And, they still have the glass ceiling and education-wise, it is still very common for women/females to get less attention in the classrooms.

Also, there was a survey done of registered nurses comparing the pay of skill-equatable nurses, male and female. The males earned an average of $40 more per hour than the females for doing the SAME job. Not to mention there is still a lot of unspoken sexism and harassment that goes on in the workplace.

One of my friends who worked in the same company I used to work with was sexually harassed by the same group of males over and over, where they made sexually suggestive remarks toward her, and also some extremely sexist remarks. She confronted each one, one by one, and asked them to desist as their behavior was not appropriate in the work place. It did not. Finally, one of them slapped her ass without her permission to even touch her. She went to HR who supposedly had a zero tolerance attitude toward discrimination and harassment. They did nothing and told her to forget that it happened.

So yes, people can say women have equal rights and lead men around by their noses but in the real world it isn't like that at all.

In essence, let's not bring over generalized sexism (personal sexism, either way is fine by me). In a world where there are elves and mindbenders and filthy magickers, men have other threats to discriminate against than... oooh! She's a woman!

[Angela Christine]

Well, here's my take.

In a society where food, shelter, and water are prevalent enough, women of childbearing age can choose to be excused from other duties in order to see to the bearing and raising of children. They rely on men, and women without small children, within their family/community to do their share of providing for the group. Now, with a more proscribed role, i.e. less hunting or hard labor, these women with children become softer and weaker.

Now, if the family/community/village is even more prosperous, then women can all be excused from hard labor, unless they really want to do it... because men like sex and they get kinda stupid around a sexy, curvy female, and they're easily persuaded to do just about anything if they want to keep getting some. So it's really the stupidity of men, and not the weakness of women, which has led to the societal differentiation between the sexes that exists in out culture.

It's a good theory, but I don't think it has ever worked out that way on Earth much less on Zalanthas.  Women produce 54% of the world's food.  Need water hauled?  That's usually woman's work despite the fact that water is heavy so logically the stronger males should do the hauling.  In american history the men may have been out tilling the soil while the woman took care of the house, but that isn't universal.  In some societies the traditional roles for men are hunting and warring, while women to all the cultivating of soil, care for the chickens and other domestic animals and do all the housework and cooking.  The interesting thing is that in many cases the hunting and warring has died off in the last few decades, but carring for the house, animals and farm is still woman's work, so the men go hang out in the taverns all day while the women do basically all the work that supports the family, assuming that her man hasn't sold their land to some conglomerate to grow coffee or chocolate on.    It isn't unusuall for women to go back to work, hard labor, within days of giving birth.  They invented backboards and such so that she could carry the baby around with her while she works.  

The non-working, taking it easy woman is fairly rare.  Some rich women manage it, becoming heir-producing machines with no function in society beyond looking pretty and having babies, but that is and always has been rare.  The stay-at-home mother and homemaker popularized by sitcoms in the '50s and '60s was an effect of transitions in society.  People replaced gardens with lawns, lawns and flower gardens were traditionally a way of showing you were rich enough to "waste" land on useless things.  So mom's job contracted to just taking care of the inside of the house.  At the same time things like electric and gas stoves (as apposed to tricky wood stoves) widespread refrigeration, indoor plumbing (as opposed to hand pumping or hauling water) and processed foods made housekeeping quite a bit easier than it had been a few decades earlier.  This gave women time to sculpt elaborate hair-dos.  I'm not dissing the modern stay-at-home-mom, but it obviously isn't as physically intensive as being a pioneer woman.

On Zalanthas, I doubt childbearing women get to take much time-off from their regular work.  They Highlord doesn't seem like the type that enact paid maternaty leave.     My guess would be that most tribes would have something like a creche system, where a few of the new nursing mothers oldsters and those with injuries would care for, train and organize all the children during the day while most of the healthy adults (both women and men) are off working.  There just isn't time for the womb-bearers to become soft and pampered.

AC

[Boggis]

In american history the men may have been out tilling the soil while the woman took care of the house, but that isn't universal.  In some societies the traditional roles for men are hunting and warring, while women to all the cultivating of soil, care for the chickens and other domestic animals and do all the housework and cooking.  The interesting thing is that in many cases the hunting and warring has died off in the last few decades, but carring for the house, animals and farm is still woman's work, so the men go hang out in the taverns all day while the women do basically all the work that supports the family, assuming that her man hasn't sold their land to some conglomerate to grow coffee or chocolate on.  

Hehe, that is so true. I've been travelling through SE Asia with some friends for the past few months and saw many, many examples of this. As far as we could see the man's job was to sit in a hammock in a shady area with his mates and some hard liqour while his wife slaved out in the fields under the roasting sun. Didn't get to see how the domestic scene was but I don't think it would take a genius to make a stab at how it's set up. Oh, and then the man takes some of that hard-earned money and gets one of the local hookers. I saw this kind of behaviour way too often to be just a coincidence. And that's all I have to say about that.

Boggis

[creeper386]

If someone took my post seriously, I'm sorry for you way of thinking. If it was meant as serious, it probably would have been written out in a clear and concise manner such as this post, and would have alot less '...' probably wouldn't have ANY words all in caps, and wouldn't be written in a child-having-a-fit type of style.

Again I'll appoligize, this time not for your way of thinking, but for me not putting any of  :shock: 's or  :lol: 's or  :twisted: 's or even any of   's,   's or  :wink: 's. Next time I'll be sure to include LOTS of them so you can be sure it's written in a joking manner.



Creeper who hopefully well never make a post similar to this one again and is still wondering what this post was named and what was the original idea in it, and also is wondering why more and more he's seeing the direction of posts dramatically changing after one of his posts.

[John]

Thanks for the explanation creeper, I too, took you seriously (what was I thinking? ) and couldn't think of anything to say in rebuttal except "I'd rather not see sexism in Arm".

If it was meant as serious, it probably would have been written out in a clear and concise

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

And does that mean the explanation post should be taken as a joke? Cause it had all of those emotes.

I'm just shit stirrin' ya now.

Arm's really clever. It has A TON of prejudices and "isms" without incorporating any from real life (with the possible exception of a classism). Sure it has racism as in the kind where you hate people from another country (or city). But whose going to take offence being prejudiced against cause they're a filthy northerner? It doesn't have racism (the kind where you hate someone because they're a different color) it has specism, and magickerism. This let's people enjoy Arm yet not get hung up over all of the RL prejudices.

As for the sexism within Arm. It exists, but it's the subtle kind. Males will protect women (not all, but a significant portion) and it's difficult for males to break. Reason is, my PCs will find nearly ANY women sexually attractive (and no I don't mud-sex). They could have a million scars, be dirty and reek to high heaven, and I'll find them attractive (cause that's the norm in Zalanthas), and because I find them attractive my PCs tend to want to show-off or protect them

I think women should start doing the same. Be protective of men in dangerous situations. Rescue them from a fight, stop them from fighting because they're just too weak. <--- a half-serious suggestion.

[crymerci]

It's a good theory, but I don't think it has ever worked out that way on Earth much less on Zalanthas.

Oh, it was a joke. I took umbrage against the implication that females were naturally inferior. Instead of getting on my high horse I thought I would use a little humor.

What I really should have said was this:
Women are not inferior to men, nor men to women. Each gender has strengths and weaknesses inherent, but I believe they balance out. With the exception of tasks involving differing sexual organs (giving birth, peeing standing up) women can do anything men can do and vice versa, if they apply themselves. Men and women are different, yes. But neither is necessarily better or worse. And it is my opinion that most of the differences between the sexes are societally imposed, or IOW "nurture" rather than "nature".

[gfair]

Keep in mind, the Houses aren't purely staffed by PCs. Those tracks could belong to a number of VNPC's as well. They could also be the tracks of someone that was depositing supplies or armor.. just because, OOCly, those tracks could have only been one PC, doesn't mean that ICly, the evidence is solid.

Exactly - this is a good example of what I mean.  There are plenty of people in Arm who don't always think of VNPCs.  So if someone points the finger at you, and you say "Wait, no, that was Maka, that painted Dwarf with the missing finger on one hand." and you try to refer to a VNPC that the other player has never heard of, he will call BS on you.  And if one of those players happens to be a Serjeant, well... the Serjeant's opinion is usually good enough.  So they all ignore any VNPCs and point the finger at you still, because they don't think the RP or the world through.

[John]

Also, who says it has to be someone from within the clan? As long as you don't act suspicious and if you act EXTREMELY loyal, you'll be the least suspected.

[gfair]

Well, here's my take.

So it's really the stupidity of men, and not the weakness of women, which has led to the societal differentiation between the sexes that exists in out culture.

This is a load of rubbish.

There is no doubt why the original roles of men and women were established - the men were always stronger and suited to the hunter/gatherer role, while the women were never as strong, and thus the men became the dominant gender.  That has been in existence since the very first humans on this planet.  And it isn't merely a high-level intelligence issue - it is pure, basic genetics that dictated this deliniation of roles between the sexes.

THAT is why much of this sentiment still exists today.  Over 90% of the world, barring our supposedly enlightened western society, still shows that this basic genetic determination is as strong as ever.  That said, there are also plenty of examples of knowledge and intelligence delivering greater equality, which women seem to possess on a marginally higher curve (taken directly from statistical surveys of high-school and University performance in Canada) of intelligence and learning.

But Arm is so entirely different from this wonderful reality we live in, and I have never read anything about a specific recommendation to ignore gender equality from the IMMs, that I believe Arm would be one of these highly inequal, backwards societies, with Women being rung #2 and men being rung #1, which is why I seek clarification on this from an IMM.

[John]

This is a load of rubbish.

Oh, it was a joke. I took umbrage against the implication that females were naturally inferior. Instead of getting on my high horse I thought I would use a little humor.

I seek clarification on this from an IMM.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1824&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Now, according to ArmageddonMud documentation, men in Zalanthas do NOT have any physical/mental advantages over women in Zalanthas. Regardless of race. So, men in Zalanthas would never get the idea that they can 'lord it over the ladies' and subjugate them to second class social status (or worse) through the virtue of 'Power Over' any moreso than they would get the same idea about other men.

[gfair]

Women, while outnumbering men, population-wise are still considered minorities.

You're using the wrong terminology here.  The fact that women are disadvantaged in most societies has nothing to do with them being a minority - minority refers to a population, not being the subject of systematic bias.

A few years ago they were still earning 77 cents to every dollar men made. And, they still have the glass ceiling and education-wise, it is still very common for women/females to get less attention in the classrooms.

Your data is extremely out of date - the gap in many market segments has narrowed considerably.  As for education, what you claim is almost entirely wrong - women consistently show lower populations in technical and scientific disciplines, but that has not been proven to be systematic bias - there is some consideration given to whether or not they WANT to be there, so the evidence may be showing other correlations, and not strictly pointing to any disadvantage.

Also, there was a survey done of registered nurses comparing the pay of skill-equatable nurses, male and female. The males earned an average of $40 more per hour than the females for doing the SAME job. Not to mention there is still a lot of unspoken sexism and harassment that goes on in the workplace.

This is almost certainly wrong - $40/hour is grossly excessive and would incite a riot, not just be a grievance.

One of my friends who worked in the same company I used to work with was sexually harassed by the same group of males over and over, [...] She went to HR who supposedly had a zero tolerance attitude toward discrimination and harassment. They did nothing and told her to forget that it happened.

There are all sorts of individual horror stories that do happen.  However, unless your friend won millions of dollars in a lawsuit, I would think your effort would be much better off being put towards finding a good lawyer, rather than chatting about the incident in a video game forum.  There is probably a pretty good parallel between advancing womens' rights, and the number of stories like this that actually went to court.

In essence, let's not bring over generalized sexism (personal sexism, either way is fine by me). In a world where there are elves and mindbenders and filthy magickers, men have other threats to discriminate against than... oooh! She's a woman!

Sorry, I don't buy this logic.  I asked about sexism because I want to find out how much sexism there is in Arm - is there any, or are we to specifically ensure we omit any sexist comments due to the game policy set by the IMMs?  If Arm were real, there would be rampant sexism - there is no threshold for prejudice and bias, it is usually done wherever a visible boundary between peoples exist.  And there is sexism in Arm, but what I want to know is how prevalent it is - I'm not looking for any justification for why we should all OOC force our characters to ignore the IC reality of Arm.

[gfair]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1824&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Now, according to ArmageddonMud documentation, men in Zalanthas do NOT have any physical/mental advantages over women in Zalanthas. Regardless of race. So, men in Zalanthas would never get the idea that they can 'lord it over the ladies' and subjugate them to second class social status (or worse) through the virtue of 'Power Over' any moreso than they would get the same idea about other men.

Finally, thankyou.  So since the code makes both men and women equal, there is no sexism.  Now we have our answer.

Thanks for looking this up, I'll be sure to adjust RP accordingly.

[John]

It's fine. I was going to say "err...you must have missed my post up above..."

is there any

Yes. Of course there is. But in tribes, not the main cities. And not all tribes either, and the sexism in the tribes that have it don't neccessarily have women as the "inferior" sex, because as Naatok said, men are neither physically nor mentally stronger then women In Zalanthas.

If Arm were real, there would be rampant sexism - there is no threshold for prejudice and bias, it is usually done wherever a visible boundary between peoples exist.

But how would it have been resolved? Women are just as strong as men, so it would have been done with numbers. Perhaps there was sexism, with females as the superior sex because there were more females around, but then the Dragon came along (who was male) and changed all that. Any evidence suggesting otherwise could have been tampered with by Tektolnes and Muk Utep.

[gfair]

But how would it have been resolved? Women are just as strong as men, so it would have been done with numbers. Perhaps there was sexism, with females as the superior sex because there were more females around, but then the Dragon came along (who was male) and changed all that. Any evidence suggesting otherwise could have been tampered with by Tektolnes and Muk Utep.

There are a number of issues - would Zalanthan females be associated with being more emotional than men?  Would Zalanthan fathers tell their sons "Big boys don't cry"?  Would it generally be believed that boys, being more emotionally repressed, are more capable of taking harsh punishment than girls?

As much as the code may make characters equal, it does not go far enough to put an end to sexism, or perhaps sexism is not the term - gender preference?  Would fathers in House guards or other military groups give women the same chance or same rigorous training as men?  They may be tougher physically, but is the perception that they may cry more, being allowed to do so by gender perception, going to cause them to be given easier treatment?

So many issues.

[flurry]

If Arm were real, there would be rampant sexism ....

And if Arm were real, there wouldn't be giant insects devouring humans..

[John]

So many issues.

As has been said there is sexism in the game, but that's us PCs bringing biases into the game. And we should all do our best not to allow OOC biases be entered into the game (although that's easier said then done).

[John]

Sorry for the doublepost, but the answer to one of gfair's questions just popped into my head (I was singing "Big Girls Don't Cry" without realising it ).

Would Zalanthan fathers tell their sons "Big boys don't cry"?

Yes, and girls would be told "Big girls don't cry". The reason is it's a sign of weakness and IMO children would be taught not to display weaknesses, cause of the level of harshness and cruelty.

All IMO.

[Supreme Allah]

How are women as strong as men?

Biologically, I mean. It's hard for me to just accept that women are as strong as men - there has to be a legitimate reason behind it. The only one I can think of is testosterone and their relative hormones, which are precisely what makes men stronger than women, but carry a lot of seemingly unpleasant weight. Women might typically have beards or chest hair!

I'll take this a step further. Is abuse of one's partner (see: real-world spousal abuse) as interchangable with each sex, too? How about rape? If women are the same as men, they rape, raid, and pillage every bit as much as we do. Not to attack anyone, but petite, curvaceous little sweethearts would be extremely, EXTREMELY rare, if this is the case.

Simply put, I don't think this equivalency of the sexes completely adds up. If we're trying to be "PC", then I'll just say that I think that's rather silly in a game as strongly based around realism as this, as well as one that contains such powerful class distinctions, slavery, and whatever else I can't think of at the moment.

Also, please keep in mind that I'm not trying to attack this game or its creators, AT ALL. I have no problem with, code-wise, keeping women as strong as men. But the world as a whole, I think, -would- have sexism and in general, I believe men -would- be physically stronger than women. That, or women should need to start shaving their faces as much as their legs.

[John]

It's hard for me to just accept that women are as strong as men

So you find it easy to believe in elves, dwarves, half-giants, giant psychic mantis', magick, Immortal Sorceror Kings and all humans being psychic, yet you can't believe women are as strong as men?

there has to be a legitimate reason behind it.

Why? Why does there have to be a legitimate reason behind that but none of the other things I mentioned?

Is abuse of one's partner (see: real-world spousal abuse) as interchangable with each sex, too? How about rape?

Yes. IMO getting rid of ALL biases towards sexes and sexual activity and marriage makes the game more interesting. And the Imms encourage all 3 of these things.

[Supreme Allah]

So you find it easy to believe in elves, dwarves, half-giants, giant psychic mantis', magick, Immortal Sorceror Kings and all humans being psychic, yet you can't believe women are as strong as men?

Correct. None of your examples have real-world equivalents to relate to a game which is STRONGLY based on realism (as is constantly emphasized in both the documentation and these boards), which, as I have said before in countless posts in the past, really makes this terribly overused and fairly baseless point moot.

[Addition]

Humans are based on real-world humans, are they not? If humans on Zalanthas biologically aren't the same breed of humans we rub shoulders with in real life, then what's to keep everyone from making something ridiculous up and just dismissing it as normal?

For example, my diminutive 13 year-old human warrior/hunter boy, who, by appearance, is the same as any other, weighs 20 ten-stone and has strength approximately equivalent to that of a braxat. I want this coded.

Hey! You can't deny me! You have God-Kings in this game, so legitimate realism doesn't exist!

Also: http://www.narth.com/docs/york.html

An interesting read, and parts of it are quite relevant to my points.

[gfair]

Would Zalanthan fathers tell their sons "Big boys don't cry"?

Yes, and girls would be told "Big girls don't cry". The reason is it's a sign of weakness and IMO children would be taught not to display weaknesses, cause of the level of harshness and cruelty.

All IMO.

I could see this - it hints of the Chinese value system, where large, strong families are the great hope, and riches and wealth acquired through marriages.  Fathers tell all children to be strong and don't cry, seeing crying as weakness, the opposite of strength.

[John]

what's to keep everyone from making something ridiculous up and just dismissing it as normal?

I was waiting for something like this to be posted by someone (I knew SOMEONE would post it ). I use common sense (sexism isn't common sense for me, might be for other people *shrug*). Remember, in the docs it says physical mutations are often passed unnoticed in zalanthas amongst all the other freaks. So for females to be as powerful as men is believable for me.

I don't have any additional arguments to make so I'll probably be quiet in this argument now.

Not an attack against anyone

[gfair]

Correct. None of your examples have real-world equivalents to relate to a game which is STRONGLY based on realism (as is constantly emphasized in both the documentation and these boards), which, as I have said before in countless posts in the past, really makes this terribly overused and fairly baseless point moot.

SA - the game is strongly based on realism, but that being said it is not 100% absolutely realistic.  Just look at all the day-to-day tasks that are usually completely ignored in arm - dressing, bathing, shaving, maintaining that hair length and colour in your desc.

Arm should be as realistic as possible, but if you were to be 100% realistic, Arm would be real life.  For all its realism, Arm is fiction, and has a value system completely different from our own, so promoting those values so much or targeting certain groups IC can be felt OOC as though crossing their comfort level.  This is why the IMMs have documents on sexual harassment and consent.

So, if the IMMs say there is to be no racism in the game, it may be highly unrealistic, but we must accept the IMM viewpoint in order for everyone to enjoy the game and not have to put up with undue sexual harassment.  Of all the prejudices, sexual harassment has the greatest potential to make players uncomfortable - some may have been harassed or assaulted themselves.  We will never know that, but we must be aware of it, so that such people can enjoy this game, and never have those bad memories brought back, possibly threatening the very existence of the game.

Humans are based on real-world humans, are they not? If humans on Zalanthas biologically aren't the same breed of humans we rub shoulders with in real life, then what's to keep everyone from making something ridiculous up and just dismissing it as normal?

Humans are not based on our real-world selves.  They are more rugged due to genetic and physical adaptation to the harsh Zalanthas environment.  That comes directly from the IMM docs - sure, when we read human we automatically think US, but that cannot be the case in Arm, or else everything has to change.  One single hit from a sword could kill, in Arm most fighters can take dozens of hits to the body.

[Supreme Allah]

First, John:

I use common sense (sexism isn't common sense for me, might be for other people *shrug*).

I'm not sure if you're calling me a sexist here, but I most certainly am not - but realistically, I do see this sort of thing being prevailant on Zalanthas. In more primitive times - say, anywhere from the beginning of documented history to sixty or seventy years ago - "common sense" would likely be that women were the inferior sex. Fortunately, we know these days that this was basically just based around the thoughtless logic of, "We're stronger and pushier, so we're better", which is absolutely ludicrous.

And now, gfair:

Reading your explanation regarding sexual harassment and the like, I agree completely. Realism needed to be sacrificed at this point to avoid making players feel uncomfortable. Thanks.

Humans are not based on our real-world selves. They are more rugged due to genetic and physical adaptation to the harsh Zalanthas environment. That comes directly from the IMM docs - sure, when we read human we automatically think US, but that cannot be the case in Arm, or else everything has to change. One single hit from a sword could kill, in Arm most fighters can take dozens of hits to the body.

I disagree. Yes, humans on Zalanthas have adapted to the environment - but they're still humans, and they were certainly created from the standard we have of humans today or in the past.

In your example, you're either comparing apples and oranges or you're simply wrong.

Yes, the single stroke of a sword to a vital, unprotected section of the body could kill, but Arm's code does reflect this sort of situation. Have you ever used a skilled and armed character to fight an unskilled, unarmed and unarmored one? A subdued one? It usually only takes one to three hits to kill, in most cases.

On the other hand, if there are two men decked out in studded leather or heavy chitinous armors, both of which are ready and capable of fighting one another, it would most certainly take more than the single stroke of a sword to kill one another. What would otherwise be a killing blow, with the right armor on, is nothing more than a bruise. I think people forget this sometimes.