Elitism

[Resurrect]

The majority of elitism I've seen is in regards to the code. People witholding information as IC sensitive that is command/code related. If you don't tell the newbie assassin that typing 'eq' breaks hide then he's going to be screwed. Often. He may never figure it out.

I've tried to get a friend of mine to play armageddon repeatedly over the years, each time he tries he gives up after a few hours of played time because of the majority of code related issues. He doesn't know how to store a mount in a stable, he doesn't know how to retrieve it. He doesn't understand how inventory and item storage works so he gets everything jacked from him. The crafting system is incredibly complex and there's very little documentation on how to create fairly simple items, its a sort of discovery process via the code that is very frustrating to new players. On top of that, a lot of PCs can be downright vicious and when you top off all the aforementioned stuff with that fact of gameplay you end up with a high newbie drop out rate. Also, a number of people on the GDB go around 'policing' topics for information that is 'IC Sensitive' when quite a few things are very basic and shouldn't be withheld from the new players.

The above factors, complex code and command system, people trying to surpress IC information (I'm sure they do it with good intentions but it gets taken too far more often than not) and also a general air of "Don't talk about the game outside the game" adds to a feeling of 'elitism' that really isn't there.

I'm not saying there aren't RP Cliques IG and on the GDB, but those are things that don't necessarily affect newbie gameplay and aren't a concern for my point.

Meh, maybe I'll write something up and send it in to the MUD for approval and posting on the website.

[Anonymous]

I'm not saying there aren't RP Cliques IG and on the GDB, but those are things that don't necessarily affect newbie gameplay and aren't a concern for my point.

Someone invite me to their RP clique please because I don't think I have any friends who play Arm.  Plus everytime I hang out in the IRC channel I get in trouble.

[Kalden]

Something as simple as crafting travel cakes took me forever to learn. After I learned it my characters survived a lot longer, especially as independents.

The problem I had with the crafting system to begin with is that the "a" in the item sdesc isn't included when you craft.

There's dozens of other hurdles that new players have to overcome. It takes a lot of diligence. I'm not so sure it's unavailable for new players, but it is hard to find.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I have a big problem with this.
There's one in particular I don't agree with, but there's nothing I can do or say about him.

...

But who am I to complain, like I said, I don't want a fuss, but I agree with Bebop, this does exist, I've witnessed it first hand.

You obviously want to complain, because you just did.  If you think someone is abusing roles/karma they're given, feel free to email in.  Usually people who accuse others of cheating just don't know the whole story, but occasionaly it's true.  If you know someone is cheating but don't report, then I don't know what to tell you besides "sorry about your luck".  The only way to stop this from happening is to report it.  Feel free to email me, and mud, about this if you genuinely think it's true.

I would like to, yes. The matter of the fact is that Yes, I have trust in the staff and their decisions but some things are missed I'm sure, they volunteer a -lot- of time, but you can't watch every single person at every moment. What's that have to do with it? I can't technically prove that this said player is doing this because for one, my logs mean nothing, I could make them up, sure. Two, I don't want to hassle the staff and have them endlessly searching old logs, and three I can deal with it the way it is now, although I don't like it.

I'll shoot you an email about who it is and stuff halaster, but like I said, I don't want to see it blow up.

I hate having to defend myself against attacks on the GDB, that's usually why I don't post at all, I feel that my opinion here doesn't matter to the rest of the players, I sometimes get flamed or put down, much to my dismay.

Reguardless, I still play this game because I love playing it, I love the roleplay, the staff's dedication, and the way it's set up down the the very last drop of water.

I try not to let stuff like this get to me, so I generally just stop posting, this is some of the problem with the newbies I think. I'm technically not a "newbie" but I'm not an "oldie" either, that still doesn't give anyone the right to shun my opinions or to shut me down on the spot, I see this on the GDB and it's not cool.

I don't know what's up with the attitude, I wouldn't call it "elitist", that's a rude term really, but IMHO sometimes the older players on the GDB that post are way too aggressive with the newbies.

Staff side? Never had any problems, no arguments whatsoever. Player side on the GDB? Not so good.

With that said, I'm going to withdraw from this post.

Thanks.

[diealot2l2l]

I agree that there is a lot of elitism with code syntax issues.

I myself have been flamed by my copycat for giving away too much information.. that I thought was more or less trying to help the newbie find the correct syntax.  Its like the old text-games, a la Zork.  If you don't know the syntax, you're screwed.

Lets say you want to get from cliff A to cliff B..  In the desc it says its close enough to jump.  So.. you 'jump'.  You get 'What?'  you 'hop'. 'What?' you try every word you can think of.. that makes sense..    but you somehow didn't think of 'leap'.  So you starve to death.

Some people on the GDB think telling them to 'leap' is wrong, and horribly IC.  I always thought it was ok to tell them to 'leap'.

Note: the above was an example, nothing more.

[Mudder]

I find it hard to believe the Staff would play favorites, but who knows, maybe they do. But, I seriously doubt it Maybe these people are getting these HIGH roles because they have done something to impress the staff maybe? I mean, I would thing that such high karma roles woul be watched alot by the staff and the first time the screw up bad, the player would know about it.

[Tiffed Kank]

And of course some of these comments coming from folks whom got 4+ karma on their first two characters, I wouldn't doubt it.

I for one think there's huge favortism floating around here.  I've got two karma, been around for two years consistantly, while there's newbies who've been around for not quite a year, running around with the same amount as moi.

Favortism?  Yes, I quite possibly think so.

[Naiona]

Tiffed Kank-

Having looked up your IP address, I checked your account.  You were last granted karma less then 15 days ago, taking you up to 3, total.  I would add that people are sometimes as honest about their karma amounts as they are about their height and weight.  Don't believe everything you hear.

If you believe you are aware of an instance of favoritism, please feel free to email the mud account at mud@ginka.armageddon.org.  I assure you that all such suggestions are thoroughly examined.

[Ritley.]

Favouritism? nah...

I only have one karma and I blame that on my rp ability, which I can admit is not as good as somes. I have been playing for a year and a half, if not more as well, but I do not think it is due to favouritism. *shrug*

[flurry]

It's been interesting to read what different people mean when they refer to "elitism".  

When I first started playing Armageddon, I found the feel of the GDB to be kind of elitist.  There just seemed to be so much focus on minutia and a lot of posts that seemed judgemental about other people's roleplay.   After a while, my perspective on this changed, and I think a lot of it just comes with the territory of an RPI.  People have high expectations their fellow players and the game they love.   I just think sometimes the expression of that can be a little off-putting, especially if someone is new to the game.

That's not to say that it's always inadverntent and well-meaning.  Sometimes people are just jerks.

[Desertman]

I dont think its so much favoratism....Well...in most cases as it is just circumstantial. I have been playing for six years and just recently got my first point of Karma...But I play primarily only indy pc's which get no IMM attention, the IMM's do have entire houses to over see after all. I play one character in a House and get some karma....Even though I kind of had to email and remind my clan IMM I didnt get anything for playing the PC, when honestly the only reason I made the pc was to get some karma...I hate house RP, but thats the lay of the land.

If you want Karma....join a House, join a clan, and play responsibley....your chances of getting noticed will go from almost zero to very high just from hooking up in a organization that gets constant IMM attention. It sucks I know....


Over the past six years I have probably got 15 people addicted, I wrote all of their first characters for them....I helped them along the way.....They all have more karma than I do...Most of them like playing in Houses. Hell one of the even got vast amounts of karma on his first ever pc....Dont hold it against the IMM's...they cant be there to see everyone...you have to kind of jump in the lime light so to speak, make yourself get noticed.


I dont know what all of that rambling was about....But in short....if you want karma...Join a House, keep good email communication between yourself and your clan IMM...and if all else fails...email and ask for Karma if it means that much to you...the worst they can do is tell you no...Or...eat your brainz.

[Intrepid]

The imms are as fair as they can be regarding karma, and it has nothing to do with
whomever they like.  I've been kicked off the mud before for getting into an argument
with Nessalin that resulted in my character being zotted by the aforementioned and I
have acquired karma since then.

It's not likability of a person.  It's not even good roleplaying.  It's being trusted to
handle the more esoteric and unusual classes/races without going completely insane
and ruining the game for people around you.

That said, if you think you may warrant a karma raise and think you might have been
overlooked (which the staff has acknowledged in the past does happen from time to
time), use the review command.  It will get their attention and they'll start looking in on
you over a long period of time.  If you haven't received feedback within six months,
do what I recently did: Email your clan imms and see if they have any feedback on
either your roleplaying or your trustworthiness and eligibility for a karma raise.

[Mudder]

It's been interesting to read what different people mean when they refer to "elitism".  

When I first started playing Armageddon, I found the feel of the GDB to be kind of elitist.  There just seemed to be so much focus on minutia and a lot of posts that seemed judgemental about other people's roleplay.   After a while, my perspective on this changed, and I think a lot of it just comes with the territory of an RPI.  People have high expectations their fellow players and the game they love.   I just think sometimes the expression of that can be a little off-putting, especially if someone is new to the game.

That's not to say that it's always inadverntent and well-meaning.  Sometimes people are just jerks.

Yep, which is why I very rarely decide to speak my mind on posts that I think will result in nothing but flames. It's pointless in my book, I sure wouldn't like getting flamed and I'm sure no one else wishes too either.

[Gaare]

I guess everybody has some favourites. There is no point denying Staff does not. (Even, there are numberless threads about players' favourite PCs, and that kind of mambo, jambo) Probably staff enjoy more spending time with particular players' PCs, then so what? I do not think, that indicates, some PCs are let alone, given up all plots, karma, whatever it means.  I always try to feel of being proud of doing IG thingies and having fun without any IMM assitance.

Whenever I see some fellow player posting something how their karma is low, I feel they are the ones who put powerplaying above anything else.

[Intrepid]

Whenever I see some fellow player posting something how their karma is low, I feel they are the ones who put powerplaying above anything else.

Another thing to consider is that anything can be special apped, and I mean anything.

I'm not sure if this is still staff policy, but the imms have, in the past, given a player
the chance to portray an unusual race/class in order to give them the opportunity
to shine.

[marko]

The Staff tends to be very good with giving out karma and who gets it for what reasons.  

To make a point, I've been around for a long time.  I have 5 karma (just checked) and am not concerned about that.  Most roles that I play are human and require no karma at all.

I think as Naiona pointed out people tend to exagerate their karma or, if I may suggest this, people just make assumptions.  There's no way to determine how much karma any individual may or may not have unless you are on staff.

I would suggest that anyone who is worried about karma stop worrying about it and just enjoy the experience of playing the best RPI out there right now.  Don't wonder how much karma someone else has - it simply doesn't matter.

If you ever encounter a situation you consider to be questionable email the account with what you experienced and let the immortals deal with the situation - if there is one.  

I really like our immortal staff structure.  I like how there is oversight and that there is accountability.  I could not think of a better structure.  The system is about as transparent as can be and there is true accountability.  Therefore, again, if you have problems, concerns, or issues email them in.

[Ritley.]

Whenever I see some fellow player posting something how their karma is low, I feel they are the ones who put powerplaying above anything else.

I take that as a insult. I AM -NOT- a power gamer. So what I only have one karma.. that doesn't make me a bad RPer. Maybe I just have not been noticed eh? or something. It seems to me that was aimed as a insult to people with no, or little, karma.

[Bebop]

I guess everybody has some favourites. There is no point denying Staff does not. (Even, there are numberless threads about players' favourite PCs, and that kind of mambo, jambo) Probably staff enjoy more spending time with particular players' PCs, then so what? I do not think, that indicates, some PCs are let alone, given up all plots, karma, whatever it means.  I always try to feel of being proud of doing IG thingies and having fun without any IMM assitance.

Whenever I see some fellow player posting something how their karma is low, I feel they are the ones who put powerplaying above anything else.

Just because someone wishes to play a certain type of magicker does not necessarily mean that they want the power, it just means they might have an awesome idea for that guild and want to play it out.  Or maybe that have just been playing mundane charcters for years and wish to try something new.  Either way I would even wager to say it's another form of elitiism to judge someone based on simply wanting a karma point just like it would be elitist to judge someone for anything other then their willingness to play fair and play well.

If you think favortism would be (if it exists) no big deal, then I would have to say that you're wrong in my opinion.  Because it's not fair for other people that are trying hard to be ignored.  It's not fair when an e-mail never gets responded to when other people have their e-mails responded to daily/hourly.

Yep, which is why I very rarely decide to speak my mind on posts that I think will result in nothing but flames. It's pointless in my book, I sure wouldn't like getting flamed and I'm sure no one else wishes too either.

When people can't post their opinions because they don't want to get flamed, that is a form of elitism.  My first post ever I posted anon because I didn't understand about accounts or anything like that.  After obviously being new I was flamed, and I have been flamed many times on this board.  At first I cared and I would stop reading the GDB but seems like these days people have to read the GDB to keep up with all the new code implementations and such.  In that way it is a resource but finally I just stopped caring what people think of me on these boards and I say what I think.   I have met some cool players that I talk to regularly but there is still is (undoubtedly in my mind) Many forms of elitism on this board and surrounding the game in general.  Examples of my description of elitism like I posted earlier.

I'm not here to blame all IMMs or all players all of the time.  But it happens, alot so many times that many time I have just considered not posting on the boards all together because I find it frustrating.

[Intrepid]

Just because someone wishes to play a certain type of magicker does not necessarily mean that they want the power, it just means they might have an awesome idea for that guild and want to play it out.  Or maybe that have just been playing mundane charcters for years and wish to try something new.

I agree with this completely.  It's a curiosity, isn't it?  In fact, I tend to be confused by
people who have karma and have no interest in trying out something new--not that I
begrudge them the choice, I just find it odd.  I have karma myself, but I'd love to have
more--if for no other reason than, despite the fact that I know the special app system
is there, I'd like to try something unknown without bugging the imms as much in the
process.  I've been here off and on for several years and still haven't explored all
the possibilities.  In the end, even if you have a 1 karma, you have a little of the staff's
trust--and that is a start.

[ale six]

Often being flamed or not flamed is just a question of how your word your post. If you come off sounding aggressive, inflammatory, or rude, people are going to flame you back.

I agree that people shouldn't be judged based on anything to do with karma. Don't call favorites because you don't have enough or someone else has too much in your opinion, and don't judge people based on their desire to have karma or not. Judge them based on how they play, and whether they're willing to roleplay and make up for past mistakes or not.

If you think favortism would be (if it exists) no big deal, then I would have to say that you're wrong in my opinion. Because it's not fair for other people that are trying hard to be ignored. It's not fair when an e-mail never gets responded to when other people have their e-mails responded to daily/hourly.

Do you have anything concrete to back this up? I'm inclined to believe it's not the case, and anecdotal "my friend gets more email replies than I do" evidence may not always be accurate of all the staff at all the time. Think about how many emails you send the staff per week (in my case, it's probably about two), and how long you spend writing those emails. Now multiply those numbers by 100. If the staff tried to answer everybody's emails, they'd never have time to run the game! Naturally some are going to be read but not replied to. That's not elitism or playing favorites, that's just how the game works.

I don't mean to flame Bebop by responding to that. In general I think a lot of the claims being made in this thread similar to the one above are based on perception rather than reality, and may not always have substance behind them. Really, we as players don't know the whole story. I just wish we could judge the staff based on OUR (and not others') experences. In my case they've been decently good, and I think this discussion could do without a bunch of the excess negativity.

[Bebop]

Often being flamed or not flamed is just a question of how your word your post. If you come off sounding aggressive, inflammatory, or rude, people are going to flame you back.

I agree that people shouldn't be judged based on anything to do with karma. Don't call favorites because you don't have enough or someone else has too much in your opinion, and don't judge people based on their desire to have karma or not. Judge them based on how they play, and whether they're willing to roleplay and make up for past mistakes or not.

If you think favortism would be (if it exists) no big deal, then I would have to say that you're wrong in my opinion. Because it's not fair for other people that are trying hard to be ignored. It's not fair when an e-mail never gets responded to when other people have their e-mails responded to daily/hourly.

Do you have anything concrete to back this up? I'm inclined to believe it's not the case, and anecdotal "my friend gets more email replies than I do" evidence may not always be accurate of all the staff at all the time. Think about how many emails you send the staff per week (in my case, it's probably about two), and how long you spend writing those emails. Now multiply those numbers by 100. If the staff tried to answer everybody's emails, they'd never have time to run the game! Naturally some are going to be read but not replied to. That's not elitism or playing favorites, that's just how the game works.

I don't mean to flame Bebop by responding to that. In general I think a lot of the claims being made in this thread similar to the one above are based on perception rather than reality, and may not always have substance behind them. Really, we as players don't know the whole story. I just wish we could judge the staff based on OUR (and not others') experences. In my case they've been decently good, and I think this discussion could do without a bunch of the excess negativity.

I just gave examples of elitism like I said if they exist.  My point is if it is there, it should not be.  And I think it is there primarily in the GDB with how common flaming is.  And I do think favoritism is there to an extent.  And yes I have experienced this.  My main point to someone that says playing favorites is acceptable my point would be that I do not think it is acceptable.

Armageddon should not be based on "Who you know." It should be based on people playing fairly and playing well.

I have had people on the board say they hope they never play with me based on posts that unintentionally came off as rude even though I kept them general.  Even despite apologies and knowing zip about my RP. I have seen people take things to the extreme: ie elitism.  What's more irksome is that it was allowed to continue for pages.

[Gaare]

Just because someone wishes to play a certain type of magicker does not necessarily mean that they want the power, it just means they might have an awesome idea for that guild and want to play it out.  Or maybe that have just been playing mundane charcters for years and wish to try something new.

I agree with this completely.  It's a curiosity, isn't it?  In fact, I tend to be confused by people who have karma and have no interest in trying out something new--not that I begrudge them the choice, I just find it odd.

I agree with Bebop as well about curiosity or having an awesome idea about some guild/subguild options.  What I do not understand and can not agree with it, is posting GDB how one is ignored, or does not have karma simply because they are not favourites of IMMs.

It is like, after having bad time in a party at a friend, then shouting failures of your friend in front of the apartment where the party is held.

Edit: Grammar.

[Intrepid]

Edit: Grammar.

We're a-ok with grammar as long as we understand it.  I wouldn't fret too much.

[Attana]

I have had people on the board say they hope they never play with me based on posts that unintentionally came off as rude even though I kept them general.  Even despite apologies and knowing zip about my RP. I have seen people take things to the extreme: ie elitism.  What's more irksome is that it was allowed to continue for pages.

Yeah, well they obviously don't know how absolutely wonderful your RP is.  And it's just as well, because it means more Bebop-RP I can hog to myself.   :twisted:

[Anonymous]

OK - as one of "those people" who thinks that it is more interesting for people to find out some things IC, I want to weigh in on the OOC vs IC info part of elitism, here.

Telling someone how to pack a kank or unpack a kank is fine.
Telling someone how to use eq, stat, inventory, etc effectively is fine.
Telling someone that using "eq" breaks hide is fine - although this should be "bugged".
Telling someone the syntax for crafting is fine.
Telling someone how to "leave" an enterable room or object is fine.
Telling someone how to purchase water or stable a mount is fine.

Telling someone incantations so they can cast spells - SUCKS.
Telling someone combinations so they can craft - SUCKS.
Telling someone that <censored> runs if you attack it, so you have to use <censored> - SUCKS.
Telling someone that <censored> is for sale in <censored> if you go 3 n, 5 w, 2 e, and enter <censored> (or giving out maps of the citystate/desert)  - SUCKS.
Telling someone that <censored> makes a better mount because of <censored> - SUCKS.

What's the difference? The former is OOC info. The latter is IC info, as in, there are ways to find it out ICly.  Ask another mage how to cast that cool spell. Ask another hunter how to hunt <censored>. Ask another crafter how to make some thing. Seek a mentor in-character.  WANDER AROUND <censored> and see what is for sale and where.  Learn about <censored> mounts from an experienced traveller in-game.

These are things that can make for great IC discoveries and provide good excuses for people to interact IN CHARACTER in a world where people might not otherwise have an excuse to do so.  I don't think that all OOC info is bad - but I think that information you -can- find out IC (without using the ooc command) should be fair game to learn in character.

Yes, where to get water is common knowledge to YOU and any of the city PCs, but a new player needn't necessarily be from the city. There are many outlying villages, and choosing to play the gawping, gangly youth as a first character is a good idea. It encourages people to interact with you and take advantage of you, and you'll learn more about the world than listening to the stilted perspective of one 'veteran' player who wants you to play exactly the same way that he does.

I still remember the first time I saw a ginka fruit in the wild. It was amazing. Sure, any idiot with a spear could stumble across this if he's in the right place in the right time, but just because you can buy them in the market, or because YOU personally have seen this with one or more of your characters does not mean that it's something that every new player and every player does/must know.