Stealing from fellow clan members

[ibusoe]

Over the past six months, I've taken a greater interest in clan role-play.

I've noticed that different clans have different IC rules.  The different clans also have different OOC rules.

For example, some Staff want players in their clan to send in an update every week.  Other clans don't seem to have this requirement.

I was startled to discover that in one clan that I played in, there was an OOC rule against stealing from fellow clan members.

There was some sort of weak justification for this, stating that in a clan of several hundred PC and NPCs, someone was likely to always notice what an individual is doing.

Personally, this is contrary to my real word experience.  

For example, imagine that you work in a small company, with only three people in your office.  If a printer goes missing one day, it's not hard to figure out who did it.  If you weren't the one who took it, it must be one of the other two guys.  

Contrast that against a much larger company that has 1,000 people working at a job site.  That same company might have 300 printers on that site.  Without going into specific methodology, imagine that the printer closest to your desk wasn't there.  What happened?  Did the IT guys pull it into the shop to put in new ink?  Did it get mailed to Hewlitt-Packard for repairs?  Did one of the sales guys take it on the road with him, and forget to tell anybody?  Is the printer downstairs in accounting offline, and the accounting buys are borrowing it?  

It might seem like a problem, but then after all you do have some important documents to print, and all you need to do is call IT and tell them to install another one.  No official report is made about the missing printer, and the fact that it's missing isn't ever reported to security.

In conclusion, I mean to imply that theft is actually EASIER inside of a large, wealthy mercantile cartel than it would be from some boozers at the Gaj.  

I pondered that for a while, and then had the idea that maybe the Staff have rules like this in order to encourage clan cohesiveness, since they seem to similarly discourage intra-clan PKing.  If this is in fact true, they should be consistent and ban anything else that creates intra-clan strife.

If anything, it seems far more logical to deal with stealing IC, since it's not, as I view it, an abuse of the code or a deviation from good role-playing.

What I ask is that any Staff who have anti-stealing policies for their clans rethink these sorts of policies.  I'm available for consultation if they need any input.

[elvenchipmunk]

I think that having any kind of ooc rules against players stealing from the clan are ludicrous. So, you stole from the clan? It should be dealt with icly. Having an ooc rule against that, and especially killing fellow clan members takes away from the fun of working in a clan for some people.

Both stealing from and killing fellow clan members should not have an ooc rule against it, and should be dealt with 100% ICly.

P.S. IMHO

Edited because ERS pointed something out I forgot to add.

If someone goes in and just does
get all 1.footlocker
get all 2.footlocker
 "   "  3.footlocker
etc.

then in my opinion it is no longer a clan rule about stealing objects from the clan, but instead a rule set down the administration of this game that you ARE TO PLAY REALISTICALLY.

So, just stealing from someone's locker (steal tektolnes footlocker, palm utep footlocker) seem fine to me, so long as the player is ready to suffer ic circumstances even if they thought no one was watching. But, if they're doing the other example (taking EVERYTHING) then they have now crossed the line into poor RP, IMO, and should be punished oocly (as well as icly) for the same reasons people are punished for slaughtering NPC's, spam-stealing from PC's/NPC's and other things like that.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't know the specifics of your situation.  An OOC no-stealing rule might make sense in a desert elf tribe, but wouldn't make any sense in House Kurac.  Of course, the rule might have been against simply waltzing into the barracks of House Borsail, clearing out every locker room, and riding to Tuluk to sell everything to NPC merchants in the same day, which would be understandable.

In general, I think that it's alright for a staff member to OOCly prevent blatant and unrealistic theft that would easily be noticed by vnpcs, but should do nothing to prevent or discourage the small-scale theft of one or two items using related manipulation and stealth skills.

I have in the past noticed staff members who seem violently opposed to allowing anything negative to happen to their clan regardless of how well it was planned out.  Those ones shouldn't be allowed to do things the way they want to.

[Larrath]

I'm with ERS on this.
Stealing from a clan is possible, but there is stealing and there is stealing.  Going to a barracks with 40 people inside and opening lockers and emptying them is going to attract attention and piss the people off.  If you want to steal, take the game environment into consideration and play realistically.

[Jherlen]

I mainly agree with ERS.

Your analogy of modern-day workplaces isn't quite on target, I think, because most of the clan compounds I've seen are set up differently. A better scenario is to imagine something like a gym locker room. Clan guards/hunters/soldiers are always going to be there virtually. Will one of them notice if you look into somebody else's locker quickly and snatch out their dagger? Maybe, maybe not. Having stealth/theft skills would help your case. Would somebody notice if you started just rooting through all the lockers and snatching out whatever you feel like? Almost certainly.

The fact that clan barracks are populated, and should not be considered empty even if no other PCs are present seems to be universally and consistently enforced in all the clans I've played in.

I don't agree that intra-clan PK is discouraged or that intra-clan strife is discouraged.

I also voted no opinion, because I feel like, as has happened before, your poll options are biased. The discussion here was framed around stealing in clan compounds, your poll question should have been about that. Obviously consistency is good, but just because I like consistency doesn't mean I agree that clans should allow unrealistic theft.

[Medena]

I tend to have a great deal of faith in our imms.  While I do believe that stealing is probably best dealt with IC'ly, I'm thinking that in this case there must have been some good reason for the imms in charge of this particular clan to have instated the rule. Perhaps, as others have suggested, there had been past problems with large-scale twinkish and unrealistic theft.

[Marauder Moe]

If you steal stuff from clan barracks you should tell your clan immortals.  Include a log, perhaps, showing what if any measures you took to be unnoticed.

[Barzalene]

I agree as well that if your pc is someone who would steal that you shouldn't be cut off at the knees by an ooc rule against it.

As an aside, I wish people would leave the silliness out of the poll options unless the poll is about something silly.

[Anonymous]

I don't think it's a weak justification, per se, to say that in a barracks for a couple hundred VNPCs that someone would notice what you were up to.  Sometimes it seems like people struggle with the notion that a room empty of PCs isn't truly empty.

That being said an OOC rule forbidding the player to steal doesn't sound right.  I'd email the clan imm.

[zanthalandreams]

I've always felt that OOC rules against stealing deal with OOC situation - like in the above posts.

Now, if you have a PC with a hard case of Stickittodamanitis and it is IC for your character to skim, steal, and plunder as much as he can in a clan with an OOC "we'll gnosh on your brainz" rule against it, then here's what you can do.

1.  Email your clan imm and say, "Oh Great and Powerful Clan Imm, hear the humble bleating of my insignificant and unworthy words."  (always a good start, gets them all buttered up for your idea)  

B.  Explain why your character just can't help himself, and that his step-cousin thrice removed was a dwarfish type and your focus is to clean out every single coded footlocker in the barracks.  (Or whatever less nefarious scheme you have in mind - like maybe lifting those sweet steel-toed boots from Third Leftenant Gunthar's deth-skull-carved chest).  

(2x-4=2)  x=.  Ask for a RPT for you to pull off the heist.  They'll appreciate the chance to flesh out the NPCS and VNPCS that are sleeplessly guarding their half-eaten kalan fruit, sandcloth gym socks, or whatever else is in the footlockers.

IV.  Get an Okay and roll with it.  Fun will be had by all.  

5.  Write up your next character, just in case.

[marko]

Different clans have different priorities, objectives, cultures, and policies.  Therefore, there isn't a single policy that will cover all clans nor would I want there to be one.

For certain clans it may be very acceptable (maybe even expected) to steal from other members.  In other clans it would be reprehensible and a complete breach of trust to do so.  Of course, that is the fault of the clan recruiter to allow such untrustworthy people inside the clan.

If the documentation of a clan says no stealing then you can expect IC consequences for stealing and getting caught.  It may be that certain people inside the clan are paid a little bonus to snitch on people who go around lifting items.

If you disagree with a policy or question it, that is fine, often clans have forums that are for internal policy / discussion.  That would be a great place to ask about the situation.  Or you may email the immortals directly.  Sometimes you can enact policy changes by posting your thoughts in a clan forum.  I like to think I've done that a few times.

Please, when you make a poll (which I did not answer) keep it to the point and don't add in the extras.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Please, when you make a poll (which I did not answer) keep it to the point and don't add in the extras.

Yes.

[Aldiel]

What you are referring to, I believe, ibuse is the no stealing from footlockers rule that many clans have in place.  This rule is in existence simply because the lockers cannot be locked.  They might have said it was because everyone would see you, but that's not the only reason.  Let me remind you that NPCs cannot catch you for stealing, and a lot of times that's all we have to catch you with; for this reason, that rule is in place.

[SpyGuy]

I never felt it an OOC rule, it's more an OOC guideline to remind you that there will be consequences.  If you can grab a few items with stealth skills, and email your clan imms a log of your success, you shouldn't have much to worry about.  If you begin unloading other peoples lockers then it's likely someone will catch you and you will be punished.  It's just like a work place environment.  Sure you can steal a stapler now and then, if you start trying to strip someones cubicle then someone in the office is bound to notice.

And please lose the "funny" poll options.

[John]

I've stolen from a clan before. And everytime I did I e-mailed the clan Imms. Did my superiors know about my behaviour? I dunno. If they did they never mentioned it to my character. Perhaps my stealing was too small for them to care about, perhaps they wanted me to steal the stuff for some unknown reason. Or perhaps I was being sneaky enough that they never learnt of it.

The rule "Don't steal stuff" is an OOC rule against improper stealing (IMO). What would be improper stealing? Stealing in a manner that will get you caught, and then being OOCly angry when you do get caught. The main way people think of stealing from a clan is to grab stuff from the barracks that you aren't allowed. That way should get you caught most of the time.

[spawnloser]

Please, when you make a poll (which I did not answer) keep it to the point and don't add in the extras.

Yes.

If there was a poll option for removing ibusoe's ability to make polls, I'd be there...

To the point, though, in my opinion it is wrong to have an OOC blanket rule against stealing.  If your IMM has done this, I'd talk to him/her/it about it and definitely make sure to CC mud on this one.

[Xygax]

I picked the last one because of the ban thing.

ibusoe:  This is a better thing for you to hash out with your clan immortals, than on the GDB, so I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread.

-- X