Down With Sandstorms.

[Synthesis]

Sure, they might be realistic, but it sucks mightily when you need to do something, you only have an hour to get it done, so you hurry out to do it and *bam*, there's a sandstorm.

It's not like everybody has loads of free time to log in every so often to see if the damn storm has died down.

Add to this nuisance factor the wackiness of the current weather system.

Add to this the fact that some people can't just hole up in a city until the thing blows over, and the fact that they can't build even semi-permanent shelters without an act of God.

Add to this the fact that increasing harshness in some areas leads people to simply play in other areas.  Do you really want everyone to start playing burglar aides and merchant crafters?  I've already seen a -dramatic- drop in the number of outdoors combat characters--and the few that remain seem to have a much higher proportion of newbies.  Everyone with experience seems to be playing magickers or that archetype that grows more ridiculous as time passes: the "aide."

The game is hard enough without them, and they serve little useful purpose.  So, fuck 'em, I say.

[Tamarin]

I voted Yay but I meant to vote Nay.  I dunno how that happened.

No.  Keep sandstorms, absolutely.  It would a stupid, stupid idea to get rid of them.  I just...no.

[Hymwen]

I think they're fine the way they are, but they shouldn't be made worse. The game is hard enough as it is, and there's enough ways to die without getting killed by the weather itself.

[Cegar]

I say make them less frequent, shorter, but more dangerous when they do occur.

I.E. people with no protective gear should take a small amount of damage in open desert (they're dead, since they wont be able to see to get to shelter, as it should be)

People with desert gear (cloaks, sandcloth, facewraps etc.) would take a very large stamina loss while moving, but not take damage.

Every once in a while, a big bastard of a storm would roll through the OPEN DESERT and be pretty beastly to everyone not in some sort of cover, but warning signs should be very, very evident.

[jhunter]

They're fine like they are I suppose, they don't need to be done away with or made worse.

[Larrath]

Let's bring Recall back, too.
Then we'll see more outdoors *coughtwinkcough* hunters!

Outdoors hunters in Zalanthas shouldn't even be that common, most people in the cities stay in the cities because leaving the cities is dangerous, expensive (in water and equipment) and oftentimes stupid.

Removing sandstorms, in my opinion, would be a very bad move.  If you need to log out and you can't, wish up.

[Cegar]

Outdoor hunters, as opposed to indoor hunters?

Where in the documentation does it say that hunters are a rare breed? Nowhere. The merchant houses HIRE hunters. People DEPEND on hunters. Who the hell else is going to go and skin tregils, eh? To say that hunters shouldn't be common is somewhat silly. Of course most people wouldn't want to be a hunter, but that doesn't mean that hunters would be uncommon. Killing animals and gathering their hides and meat is a necessary task since that is what all people of Zalanthas depend on for food (for the most part), clothing, weapons, etc. Hunting is a vital part of Zalanthan economy, and as a result, there are a lot of hunters.

[Hymwen]

Removing sandstorms, in my opinion, would be a very bad move. If you need to log out and you can't, wish up.

Agreed, it's a fundamental part of Zalanthas. And it can cause death because of the effects of a sandstorm, but it shouldn't kill people on its own. Unless you go out in the harshest of sandstorms without clothes on, in which case you deserve to die.

[Lizzie]

I've read so much about the sandstorms that I'm really looking forward to the challenge! For now though I'll stick with what I'm doing until I feel I'm better prepared. Give me a few months okay? Then I'll do an out-of-city character and get back to you on my experience

L. Stanson

[Halaster]

Debate, poll, discuss.. all you want.

But we're definitely not getting rid of them.

[LauraMars]

Why do you want a desert planet without sandstorms?

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Yeah, sandstorms can be annoying sometimes, but getting rid of them entirely is just ludicrous. Jumping at shadows.

[Aldiel]

Regardless of if whether they're annoying and inconvenient or not, I don't think the solution is to just abolish them altogether.  I think the best solution would be to come up with a way to make sandstorms slow you down without stopping you completely.

[Cegar]

Anyone else realize that Synthesis was being facetious?

[ale six]

Cegar, I hope he was. Because the "people have limited time to play, so we should strip every inconvenience out of the game that gets between them and their advancing" argument just grates me.

I like sandstorms.

[Cegar]

I repeat... does anyone else realize that Synthesis was being facetious? This is a clear spoof of the other sandstorm thread. Please, please, please recognize that, or I will lose faith in the playerbase, make a warrior, and PK everyone last one of you.

[Maybe42or54]

I use a skill that I found, when dealing with sandstorms. If there isn't a pc around, I log out.

[Gaare]

Ignoring reality and RP opportunities side of desert storms.

Having more city-based PCs means more interaction. Although I do agree out-door loner PCs add a lot of color to atmosphere, giving PCs way to unite under some clans or groups adds much more.

Just a small example. Even a templar can not easily leave safe city easily... or can be struck outside with a huge amount of weapon-power. I know that sucks when you can not log-out when needed, but well.. that's the part of ARM, and can have same problem even in most fun RPT or HRPT.

PS. Outdoor combat PCs mean rangers now. Warriors are ... well.. just warriors.

[Anonymous]

I don't think that sandstorms should be abolished, or that their impact should be lessened.  In fact, I think more people should stop ignoring their impact and treat it like it's really happening.  Maybe you should suffer damage in bad storms unless you are wearing the proper gear - or maybe only if you insist on trying to move through one or something to get the point across.

However, I think that there should be MUCH more obvious warning that a sandstorm is coming to give people plenty of time to get out of dodge before it hits.  I know that onset of real sandstorms is flashbang, but there are some OOC constraints to deal with.  I think the difference between indoor weather and outdoor weather for detecting whether a sandstorm is raging outside needs to be fixed, and I think that Sandstorms should occur MUCH less frequently than they do in several places.

It's a bit too much in some areas, and I feel like it does impede the ability to get things done in any kind of realistic OOC timeframe.

[RogueWarrior]

Well, I've got to say, taking away sandstorms would be a horrible idea. However, I do think that there should be some skill involved in navigating them. Your more 'outdoorsy' characters would have better skill... well... like all skills. This would be on a small scale though. Even the absolute pros would still have a decent chance of getting lost, especially outside the city. It would be mainly used for navigating city streets and stuff like that, since, in theory, walls and buildings would at least help -a little- to knock down some of the sand and stuff. Also, I think that walking around with your hood up should help an eensy bit to help navigate through the storm (while in the city), since if you had your hood up, you'd be better able to focus on where you were going, instead of keeping the crap out of your eyes the whole time.


Hopes that this isn't already the case, as I would feel pretty dumb.

[Aldiel]

I repeat... does anyone else realize that Synthesis was being facetious? This is a clear spoof of the other sandstorm thread. Please, please, please recognize that, or I will lose faith in the playerbase, make a warrior, and PK everyone last one of you.

Hahaha, hehe, hoohoo... heh.

[Anonymous]

Well, I've got to say, taking away sandstorms would be a horrible idea. However, I do think that there should be some skill involved in navigating them. Your more 'outdoorsy' characters would have better skill... well... like all skills....

This misses the entire point.

You shouldn't be navigating a sandstorm.  In 200 mph winds filled with sharp as glass sand, you should be hunkering down someplace to survive said storm until it ends.  Navigating this is just plain ridiculous.

Their length should be shortened for the sake of playability rather than making them easier to OOCly ignore.

[RogueWarrior]

I'll agree with that, I just think that someone who spends 99.99999% of their life in those storms, would eventually learn how to better navigate them, not out of convenience, but out of necessity.

[Anonymous]

I'll agree with that, I just think that someone who spends 99.99999% of their life in those storms, would eventually learn how to better navigate them, not out of convenience, but out of necessity.

I disagree.  I think that, in order for anyone and anything to live outside in such conditions, the frequency of the storms would have to be lessened, and life would have to develop some means to survive the storms when they hit.  To "weather them" as the American idiom goes.

Surviving as an outdoorsman would mean that you know how to make a double hide-reinforced sandcloth cloak, a loreshi stem, and the side of a sand dune or cliff face into a shelter that will let you breathe and avoid severe lacerations should you be caught out in it until it passes.

[RogueWarrior]

Hmm... pretty good points you got there. Alright then... can we have a stamina drain? Or maybe damage to exposed clothing, maybe armor after a while? Something? We've just been making WAY too many code changes here lately to stop now!

[Anonymous]

I am sure the staff have discussed this in the past.  Maybe the code is a mess and it's real tetchy to muck with or something.  Either way, I'm sure Morg will hit it and the criminal code, too, eventually ;)

[Maybe42or54]

Well, the animals have evolved to deal with sandstorms, so their hide and chitin is probably really tough. So, most of the time, the most sand would do to a treated hide is clean it.

[Anonymous]

Well, the animals have evolved to deal with sandstorms, so their hide and chitin is probably really tough. So, most of the time, the most sand would do to a treated hide is clean it.

Not necessarily.  There are a lot of animals who burrow, for example, or who migrate days before a sandstorm is set to hit a particular area because of that bizarre sixth sense that only animals have.

You would also have to consider the difference between a scaled hide and a "cured" hide which is often not quite the same.  Although I'm mostly with you here.  Since Zalanthan norms don't allow much more robust than hides in most cases, they would have to be enough to make it through sandstorms, or else none of the nomadic desert cultures would exist.

[Intrepid]

I don't want sandstorms to end.  In fact, I want even more weather interferences.

:arrow:  Saltstorms.  These should have a distinction from sandstorms in that you're
obviously covered in salt.  Nitpicky?  Not really.  Compare the two substances
directly sometime.  They look very different.  The grime accumulation code would
love it too.  Imagine that wizened old ranger coming in covered in both sand and
salt.  Yay.

:arrow:  We have Elkros as one of the eight elements but no manifestations of it.
This makes me so sad.  Let's bring in heat lightning.  You heard me.  Heat lightning.
And maybe even electrical discharges in the dry, thin air that Zalanthas is so well known
for.  Give the Elkrans something rejoice for!

:arrow:  Rain.  No, hear me out.  I'm not talking torrential downpours or anything.  I
mean the type of rainfall that evaporates before it hits the ground.  Talk about teasing
those poor nomads.  Look, it's water!  Water in the sky!  It's coming right at you!  So
MUCH of it!  Rejoice!  It...it...it didn't even hit the ground...that's so sad.  It's like the
imm--err, the god--err, the sorceror kings are laughing at us.

:arrow:  Siltstorms.  Same as sand and salt, but reserved for the coastlines.
Also for grime accumulation.  Yes, the substances are different.

:arrow:  Ashstorms.  If you have to ask why, it's too ic for me to tell you.  Sorry.

:arrow:  Tornadoes.  They're just the meeting of high and low pressure systems
really.  We could put them in the wilderness around Gol Krathu.

And for the love of all that's holy: Keep the sandstorms.

[Anonymous]

Having recently been playing again and playing outside it seems like the storms aren't lasting for days and days anymore which is a positive change and really the only one I think needs to be made to sandstorms for playability reasons.

[Synthesis]

I can't believe this generated 2 pages of discussion.

Suckas.

[Cegar]

Doesn't it make you sick?

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Way to troll guys.
No, seriously. You're way cool.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Debate, poll, discuss.. all you want.

But we're definitely not getting rid of them.

Don't you think that repeating this statement every three threads without really contributing anything might rub some people the wrong way?

[Halaster]

Debate, poll, discuss.. all you want.

But we're definitely not getting rid of them.

Don't you think that repeating this statement every three threads without really contributing anything might rub some people the wrong way?

While I don't really care if it rubs people the wrong way, it's also definitely not my intention to do so, and I apologize.  I'm just trying to save people the time of debating when this is for sure something we're not doing.  There's actually not a lot of things I can say that about (that we will never do it), but this is one of them.  However, I hadn't realize I repeated it every three threads.  Feel free to email me and show how every third thread I've said "we're not changing this", beacuse I have a hunch you're exaggerating a little.

[diealot2l2l]

I totally agree with whoever it was that mentioned heat lightning and tornados.  I would -love- to type l north and see 'a glowing ball of energy hovers here, darting and blinking'.  Ball lightning, due to heat/atmospheric phenomenon would be awesome.  As would random (RARE) lightning strikes to people walking around in a sandstorm.

As for tornados?  C'mon, how badass would it be..

watch n
>
You begin watching to the north.
>
A Gith walks in from the east, far to the north.
>
A whirlwind blasts in from the west, far to the north.
>
The whirlwind has lifted the Gith.
>
think Fecking Whira.
>
A Gith has entered from above!
>
l
>
You are in the desert <NESW>
Its a desert!  It has sand!
A Gith is lying here, looking confused, it is mortally wounded.

[amoeba]

I totally agree with whoever it was that mentioned heat lightning and tornados.  I would -love- to type l north and see 'a glowing ball of energy hovers here, darting and blinking'.  Ball lightning, due to heat/atmospheric phenomenon would be awesome.  As would random (RARE) lightning strikes to people walking around in a sandstorm.

I suggested this via email once after being buffeted by a dust devil at home, and seeing an article on the dust devils on mars.

a quoute from this site http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/14jul_dustdevils.htm

You were caught in one just yesterday--and a devilishly terrifying experience it was. This was no little Arizona desert whirlwind, only a few tens of meters high and a few meters across and past you in seconds.

No, what hit you yesterday was a monster column towering kilometers high and hundreds of meters wide, 10 times larger than any tornado on Earth. Red-brown sand and dust whipping around faster than 30 meters per second (70 miles per hour) dropped visibility to zero, scouring your faceplate, driving dust into every fold and wrinkle of your spacesuit. For 15 minutes you huddled and endured the buffeting. The scariest part was the incessant crackling and flashing of miniature lightning bolts nipping at you and your rover, and the loud static on your radio that prevented you from calling for help.

I would love to see something like this.

[Intrepid]

I totally agree with whoever it was that mentioned heat lightning and tornados.  I would -love- to type l north and see 'a glowing ball of energy hovers here, darting and blinking'.  Ball lightning, due to heat/atmospheric phenomenon would be awesome.  As would random (RARE) lightning strikes to people walking around in a sandstorm.

Why thank you!  That was my suggestion, actually.  

While I'm no meteorologist (add meteor showers!--err, ahem don't), tornadoes are
basically just pockets of very low and very high pressures meeting and doing a sexeh
tango before burning out...which sounds like my last relationship.

The scariest thing you might ever witness in the desert is the grim realization that
you're the tallest thing for leagues in the salt flats...your hair is beginning to stand on
end.  ZORCH!

[jmordetsky]

I voted yay, but i meant nay.

Desert quit skill?

What? Who?

Shut up jmordetsky! You're a skill!

No you!

[amoeba]

I totally agree with whoever it was that mentioned heat lightning and tornados.  I would -love- to type l north and see 'a glowing ball of energy hovers here, darting and blinking'.  Ball lightning, due to heat/atmospheric phenomenon would be awesome.  As would random (RARE) lightning strikes to people walking around in a sandstorm.

Why thank you!  That was my suggestion, actually.  

While I'm no meteorologist (add meteor showers!--err, ahem don't), tornadoes are
basically just pockets of very low and very high pressures meeting and doing a sexeh
tango before burning out...which sounds like my last relationship.

The scariest thing you might ever witness in the desert is the grim realization that
you're the tallest thing for leagues in the salt flats...your hair is beginning to stand on
end.  ZORCH!

Tornados and dust devils are different in their formation. Dust devils are a desert phenomon resulting from the heat, tornadoes are very rare in dry desert climates. From the site I quoted above:

Dust devils on Mars form the same way they do in deserts on Earth. "You need strong surface heating, so the ground can get hotter than the air above it," explains Lemmon. Heated less-dense air close to the ground rises, punching through the layer of cooler denser air above; rising plumes of hot air and falling plumes of cool air begin circulating vertically in convection cells. Now, if a horizontal gust of wind blows through, "it turns the convection cells on their sides, so they begin spinning horizontally, forming vertical columns--and starting a dust devil."

Hot air rising through the center of the column powers the whirling air ever faster--fast enough to begin picking up sand. Sand scouring the ground then dislodges flour-fine dust, and the central column of hot rising air buoys that dust high aloft. Once prevailing horizontal winds begin pushing the dust devil across the ground, look out!

They don't occur during high winds like with a tornado, rather they appear out of the blue during a otherwise perfectly calm day. I've experienced this first hand a number of times.  Also the flatter the landscape the more common they would be. Think of the salt flats.

The electrical dischages are different than a normal storm. When in a normal storm you get a high difference of electrical potential between the cloud overhead and the ground below,  so you get ground to cloud discharge. If memory serves me right it goes from the ground to the cloud.  In a dust devil, the electrical discharges are within the dust devil itself.  If you look at this video of a live one on mars, you can see the electrical activity.  http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/images/dustdevils/dustdevilmovie_med.gif

[Intrepid]

That's why I suggested Gol Krathu for the tornadoes.