Obsidian Coins.

[Master Z]

I was thinking awhile ago about this, and while I don't really have any suggestions for the game, I figured I might as well share my thoughts and see what other people were thinking.

It happened when my character had dropped an obsidian coin, up around Tuluk. An Allanaki coin is laying here, or something to that effect. But hark, we're not quite in Allanak are we?

So that got me thinking. From my impression of things, all the obsidian is controlled by Allanak. You only ever see obsidian equipment and items there, and I'm pretty sure its a well known fact that the obsidian mines are down there somewhere in or around Vrun Driath. If the world economy is based on obsidian, then it makes sense that all coins the world over are Allanak-minted. Further, if Tuluk was under Allanaki control, its also reasonable that they'd use their currency.

Now Tuluk is free. However, they are at a huge disadvantage of only their great and bitter rival has the power to create currency, a huge factor in controlling the economy. I think Tuluk would most likely want to be in control of their own economy instead of relying on foreign stone for their coinage, and would probably instate their own kind of coinage. I'm not sure what it'd be, maybe gems or rare wood, something more common in their area, but thats not really of consequence.

One question that makes a huge impact on this discussion is if obsidian coins are valued for their own, material value, or for material backing the coins represent. In the real world, paper money is absolutely valueless, and in order for the system to work the government must keep something of value representing the paper's worth, so that it actually represents something of value and not just be a piece of paper. I'm pretty sure in the US treasury they have, or used to have, much precious metals and the like to back up the value of the dollar. I'm not completely sure how it works now, but thats the idea. You can't just print more paper money without backing it up its worth, take post WWI Germany for example. The inflation they suffered due to trying to print paper money without backing up its value was absolutely insane. In January, 1921, there were 64 marks to the dollar. By November, 1923 this had changed to 4,200,000,000,000 marks to the dollar. In other words, you can't just print valueless currency as a way to pretend you have more wealth than you do.

If this was the case, that obsidian coins are worthless but are backed by their city state to have real value, then I can understand why both Allanak and Tuluk would use them (but I still think the coins wouldn't have a Tek's ugly mug on them, there'd likely be different kinds that got mixed in). However, what if obsidian coins are traded because of their own value? In that case, Allanak does have all the economic power. It'd be like owning all the gold mines in a gold-coin driven world, not like owning all the trees in a paper-currency market, which isn't much of an advantage. This would definitely lead Tuluk to instate its own currency, or just settle in with the fact that they don't have the resources their southern bretheren enjoy.

I think its pretty reasonable to suggest that, athough their culture is "primative", Zalanthian economics are advanced enough to support currency with no material value of its own. This would explain why Tuluk and Allanak would be able to hold comparable wealth as things stand. However, I still think northerners would get a bit sick and tired of using Allanaki-minted coins. Maybe a lot of the coins that came in, they'd deface? Scratch out that little cross on the back and etch in a sun. I can imagine this creating a great variety in what the coins look like, but if the two cultures are going to share one currency, I find it very believable. In game, it'd be pretty easy to make something like this the case too, as opposed to implementing another form of currency.

Another thought which would explain why obsidian coins would not be valued for their material value but rather representational value, is because once you carve a piece of stone into something, thats it. You can take a handful of gold coins and make gold bars, or products, or anything, which obviously represents its real value in a very literal way. But obsidain, once you make something out of it, is that thing forever. So that way I can see another argument being made for how things would work.

Anyway, thats what I was thinking. I'm not sure how clear I was being through all of this, but bear with me eh?

[witchman]

I think someone should go IC and figure out how to make Tuluki coins, get the templarate and nobility to back them and then have their ideas turned into laws and profitable business.

Man, I wish I had the character that would do this!

[Angela Christine]

One question that makes a huge impact on this discussion is if obsidian coins are valued for their own, material value, or for material backing the coins represent. In the real world, paper money is absolutely valueless, and in order for the system to work the government must keep something of value representing the paper's worth, so that it actually represents something of value and not just be a piece of paper. I'm pretty sure in the US treasury they have, or used to have, much precious metals and the like to back up the value of the dollar. I'm not completely sure how it works now, but thats the idea. You can't just print more paper money without backing it up its worth, take post WWI Germany for example. The inflation they suffered due to trying to print paper money without backing up its value was absolutely insane. In January, 1921, there were 64 marks to the dollar. By November, 1923 this had changed to 4,200,000,000,000 marks to the dollar. In other words, you can't just print valueless currency as a way to pretend you have more wealth than you do.

Two words: Currency Traders.

Most currencies used to be backed by gold, but they got rid of the "gold standard" like 20 or 30 years ago, which is why currency traders wield such terrible powers today.  If I had 300 pounds of gold, and had printed 300,000 ACbucks, than each ACbuck would be worth 1/1000th of a pound of gold.  You only have 100 pounds of gold, buty you only printed 10,000 Zbucks, so each Zbuck is worth 1/100th of a pound of gold.  It is obvious to everyone then that each Zbuck is worth 10ACbucks, and currency traders would have to trade at something near that ammount, so currency trading would mainly be for travelers.  When Zlanders traded in their money for a trip to ACland, they would expect to get about 10 ACbucks per Zbuck, minus a reasonable fee.  But that isn't the way it works now.  Currencies go up and down from day to day based on economic indicators, wars and rumors of wars, government personel shuffels, predictions of Miss Cleo, the latest "big" company to report a major loss, profit or bankruptcy and a host of other things I don't even begin to fathom, being as I've never finished an economics course.  Currency trading is basically a form of gambling.


In this case the currency doesn't have any intrinsic value, but the system works because we all agree to pretend currency has value.  Nobody want's to have to trade 3 bags of wheat to the miller for 2 bags of flour, and then trade one of those bags of flour to your mechanic to get an oil change.  The barter system may be saner, but it's clunky.  So we all agree that the currency has value, and the value of that currency changes from day to day as people's faith in the currency waxes and wanes.  So governments are forced to do all sorts of tricks with intrest rates and other regulatory mechanismims to keep the value of the currency, inflation, and unemployment under control.

If this was the case, that obsidian coins are worthless but are backed by their city state to have real value, then I can understand why both Allanak and Tuluk would use them (but I still think the coins wouldn't have a Tek's ugly mug on them, there'd likely be different kinds that got mixed in). However, what if obsidian coins are traded because of their own value? In that case, Allanak does have all the economic power. It'd be like owning all the gold mines in a gold-coin driven world, not like owning all the trees in a paper-currency market, which isn't much of an advantage. This would definitely lead Tuluk to instate its own currency, or just settle in with the fact that they don't have the resources their southern bretheren enjoy.

I honestly don't know.  Obsidian coins wouldn't be that hard to counterfit, you get a chunk of obsidian and you make it into disks.  Unless Tek is melting and molding the obsidian (which would be tricky) any stone crafter or jewlery maker should be able to counterfiet obsidan coins fairly easily.  It isn't too hard to find obsidian shards, and an obsidian shard could probably make 1-3 coins.  Of course you can sell an obsidian shard to a fletcher or many other crafters for about that same price, so there isn't much incentive to bother with counterfeiting.  

Allanak has much more obsidian, and also seems to have slightly more metal.  On the other hand, Tuluk has more wood, water, fruit, game, useful herbs and pretty much everything else.  Wood is the bigie, wood is increadably useful in a land without metal or plastic, heck, it's useful even in places with metal and plastic -- most of my furnature is wooden or made from sweet, sweet, laminated fiberboard.    We could make our furniture from bones, but wood is easier to work with.   Merchants from Allanak are comming to Tuluk on a daily basis to buy Tuluki goods, and they are paying with coins.  There doesn't seem to be nearly as many goods imported to the north from the south: Obsidian and obsidian coins are Allanaks major exports, Red Storm has spice and wheat (but transporting the wheat all the way up north probably wouldn't be profitable).

If Tuluk decides to make it's own coins, I would suspect it is because they have too many useless obsidian coins cluttering up the joint, rather than they fear Allanak controling them through their currency.  The only way Allanak could try to cut the flow of obsidian to the north would be to cut off trade with the north, and make northern goods as illegal as spice.  As fast as Tek's slaves can dig obsidian out of the mines, obsidian coins are being poured into some gigantic underground vault in Tuluk.

AC

[Master Z]

It isn't too hard to find obsidian shards, and an obsidian shard could probably make 1-3 coins. Of course you can sell an obsidian shard to a fletcher or many other crafters for about that same price, so there isn't much incentive to bother with counterfeiting.

This seems to be a pretty unique case. Raw obsidian does have a value, but obsidian coins do not except that its used as currency. So, hopefully the value of obsidian per pound is higher than the value of obsidian coins per pound, or else people will counterfeit. I'm pretty convinced its the other way around- raw obsidian will take in more than its weight in coins, so counterfeiting would cause you to lose money.

This does, then, suggest that obsidian coins are not valued by their weight in obsidian, but by either a pretended value or a city-state backed value.

This would really make sense to me if Tuluk really liked to buy goods from Allanak. Allanakis buy stuff from Tuluk with their shiny coins, then Tuluki's can buy things from Allanak offering up the shiny coins they got from them. But I think you said most of the importing goes north to south, which would be a -huge- economic detriment to Allanak.

I'm just going to assume that the trade between both city states is more even than we generally think. Face it, Allanaki obsidian, other stones, maybe metal as you suggested,  and probably even their supirior chitin would have a higher resale value in the north than we probably take it for. This way, the way the currency system works actually makes sense. Besides, how on earth would Allanak survive economically if they had all imports and few exports?

[krelin]

So, hopefully the value of obsidian per pound is higher than the value of obsidian coins per pound, or else people will counterfeit.

If the value of a pound of obsidian coins is higher than the value of a pound of regular obsidian, it would make a terrible form of currency.  It would always be preferrable to use it as a raw resource.

[Eternal]

Well, you can't -exactly- reform a pound of coins into raw material... rukkian mages notwithstanding.

[krelin]

No, but you wouldn't make it into coins in the first place.  You'd pick something less meaningful to turn into coinage.  Either the material should be worth -exactly- what its worth as a coin (gold coins once upon a time), or less (zinc/copper alloy coins in the US)...

[Kronus]

In one regard, obsidian is kinda like diamonds. You can generally buy jewelry in our world with diamond bits and flakes for pretty darn cheap. But if you were to find a single diamond the size of a baby's fist, you'd be set for life.
It stands to reason that the value of obsidian isn't in the material itself, but how much of the material is found in a single piece. A four cord length of obsidian is worth more than four times the worth of a one cord length, because it's far more than four times harder to find a piece that big.
Obsidian coins are small. Tiny. Like an American dime, only a little thicker. They're more or less worthless scraps left over from the swords and knives and breastplates that Allanak cranks out from the mines. As a material, they have no intrinsic value anymore, but no one's going to smash up a head-sized chunk of obsidian to make a bunch of coins. It's more valuable as a whole piece.

[Lazloth]

Obsidian coins are small. Tiny. Like an American dime, only a little thicker. They're more or less worthless scraps left over from the swords and knives and breastplates that Allanak cranks out from the mines. As a material, they have no intrinsic value anymore, but no one's going to smash up a head-sized chunk of obsidian to make a bunch of coins. It's more valuable as a whole piece.

Are you basing this on any semblance of fact, or is this pure numistmatic speculation?

[Kronus]

Are you basing this on any semblance of fact, or is this pure numistmatic speculation?

It's speculation. It's an attempt at offering one possible explanation why people aren't running out to chop up their obsidian longswords into five times what they paid for it in obsidian coins, and yet still explain how someone can run around with five thousand of said coins in their backpack with little discomfort.

I'd love to hear other ideas, though (and a definition of numistmatic too. I think I saw that in an sdesc one time.)

[crymerci]

a definition of numistmatic too. I think I saw that in an sdesc one time

Gawd, I hope no one put that in a sdesc. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=numismatic

[Delerak]

obsidian sucks, lets use ceramics. (from darksun)

[Angela Christine]

You could do the math, I'm not sure where it would lead.  I don't know if it has changed with the recent changes, but 100 coins weighs one stone.  If you have a very small pocket that holds 1 stone, you could stick 100 coins in it.  (More or less, a single coin or a pile of 5 coins would also weigh 1 stone, but that's a code oddity.)  So if 1 stone is similar to 1 kg, and 1 kg is 1000 grams, then each coin would weigh 10 grams.

Now this is where it gets tricky.  I don't know what the mass of obsidian is, so I don't know how large 10 grams worth of obsidian is.

According to http://www.metricamerica.com/gram.htm a gram is about the weight of a raisin, a paperclip, or a dime.  A table tenis ball wights 5 grams, and an egg weigs about 50 grams.  Ok, so 5 obsidian coins weighs the same as an egg.  Hmm.  

I still have no idea how big a 10 gram disk of obsidian would be.  I bet the guy that made this page would know : http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vw_hyperexchange/obsidian.html but I'm not going to email him and ask.  

AC

[Lazloth]

That's one damned big coin

[Hoodwink]

obsidian sucks, lets use ceramics. (from darksun)

Dark Sun used ceramics for money?  That sounds kind of interesting.  Were they coins, and how did they differ from standard pottery, or didn't they?

[Master Z]

Krelin, you kinda confused me, I'm not sure if its you or me. You said

If the value of a pound of obsidian coins is higher than the value of a pound of regular obsidian, it would make a terrible form of currency. It would always be preferrable to use it as a raw resource.

and

No, but you wouldn't make it into coins in the first place. You'd pick something less meaningful to turn into coinage. Either the material should be worth -exactly- what its worth as a coin (gold coins once upon a time), or less (zinc/copper alloy coins in the US)...

But... in the first example, you said a pound of obsidian coins being worth more than raw obsidian, that'd be bad. Then you said in the second quote that the material a coin is made with should be equally valuable or less valuable than the coin itself. Isn't that what you just said was bad though?

Just kind of curious, maybe I missed something.

[krelin]

Sorry, reverse the logic on the first one.

[Delerak]

http://www.athas.org/

You can find all the info there.

I think Tuluk would be an obvious choice for paper currency. All the trees and that. Maybe they could start collecting obsidian coins in exchange to represent the amount of paper. eventually fading out allanaki money, by back their cheap paper with the obsidian.

[John]

Okay, here's JUST an idea for Tuluk.

I'm assuming Nenyuk is as large up in Tuluk as they are in Allanak? If so then here's my idea. IIRC in the Nenyuk bank description are tons of slaves/clerks scribling down how much money everyone has. Now a common way to keep track of when someone has something of yours, is to give them a ticket in Armageddon. So perhaps Nenyuk could implement something similar?

What would happen is I would put X amount of sid in the bank (let's say 500)  and instead of it going to my personal account like normal 'sid does, it would go in the general vault and I'd get a ticket that would represent my 500 'sid. Then I could go to the shops in Tuluk and use the ticket as if it was 500 'sid.

The shopkeeper would then go to the bank and exchange the ticket for money (or use the ticket with other shop-keepers when buying something).

Now the advantages to this are it saves me from having to carry a lot of coin around. The disadvantage is if someone steals my ticket, then they've stolen my 500 'sid. But the reason I suggested it, is because it's a way for Tuluk to slowly become independant of Allanaki obsidian coins. IMO the ticket wouldn't be useable outside of Tuluk and MAYBE you'd be able to exchange it in Nenyuki banks outside of Tuluk.

Just an idea.

[Lazloth]

You can't read, and I'm a devious elf with access to some crumpled parchment and a stick of charcoal.  Your reserve note is worthless.

[DrunkenSalarr]

Having different coins (either for Tuluk/'Nak or coins of different values) has both its pros and cons. In the Society for Creative Anachronism (//www.sca.org) we sometimes use specially minted coins at some events. At these events we have to set up a moneychanger's table (Nenyuk anyone?) for the exchange of US currency to the coin of the event or kingdom. It's all very simple; anyone (consumers or merchants) can exchange one coin (or bill) for another with the given exchange. The downside is that we also have to let all the merchants know that they can exchange our coins for US currency at the same rate. Otherwise they won't use our coins because the standard is still the US dollar, regardless of the event coin.  

ICly the same issues would come up in Tuluk attempting to bring in a new form of currency, be it wooden nickels or paper notes.  All merchants would have to know that the new currency is good for obsidian coins. This would have to happen until the new currency became well-used and more popular, popularity being the most important. A good example of why is the gold dollar coin produced by the US Treasury. Businesses were encouraged to use it (not only accepting the coins, but giving them as change as well). Businesses did not and so the coin was not a success. However, in the case of a Tuluki coin, I am sure that once everyone knows that the coins are still "good for 'sid" they will be used due to people not wanting to carry around the 'Nakki coins. My guess is that a successful addition of a new coin would take around 5 IC years.  This would of course lead to new issues involving moneychangers' locations and exchange rates.

Assuming a new Tuluki currency, the easiest thing to do, code wise at the very least, would be for the new coin to be less in value than the Allanaki Obsidian Coin. This would not only encourage consumers to use the new coins, but force them to. Should the Tuluki coin be of lesser value, say 2 Tuluki Wooden Sun Chips to every 1 Allanaki Obsidian Coin, shop keepers would much rather price with the sun chip so that if someone wanted to pay with a 'sid, they would almost always have to pay more to get the item (giving change is a whole other concept) keeping the remainder to themselves for an "exchange fee." Thus, the sun chip would then be forced into use because regardless of the lines we try to draw between that world and ours, Capitalism still managed to cross over. :twisted:

As far as coins of different denominations. The introduction of the coin would be a lot easier. If Nenyuk told all the merchant houses, "We now have a glass coin that looks exactly like the obsidian coin, and the glass coin is worth exactly fifty 'sid" the other houses would just shrug and start to use the coins when Nenyuk would only give them the glass coins unless otherwise requested. (Ex. "withdraw 179" would get you 3 glass coins and 29 obsidian ones). Since the glass coins would weigh roughly the same as the 'sid, you could carry or store a greater value of coins in a smaller space. The exchange system would work just as it does now with one exception. When buying, if you have the exact or greater value of coins in your inventory, then the exchange is done automatically. Leaving you with the "best possible change". If you have more than enough obsidian coins, then the merchant will take the exact change and not even deal with the rest of your coins.  The exception comes when selling an item. The merchant would always give you the least number of coins, regardless of your inventory.

ex:

you have 2 glass coins;
you buy an 11 'sid bag;
you then have 1 glass coin and 39 obsidian coins;
you sell Halaster's Underpants of Death for 198 'sid;
the merchant gives you 3 glass coins and 48 obsidian coins;
you then have 4 glass coins and 87 obsidian coins.

If both of theses ideas were to be implemented, I would suggest introducing new coins one at a time, not introducing a new coin until well after the previous coin has become "settled".

Anyway, if you'll pardon the pun, that's my two 'sids.

[gfair]

Just to correct some things I've read - today's modern currency is not accepted by people as having its value.  Today's "Fiat Money", at least in Canada and the US, is enforced by law, so while perception rules, eventually if people refuse to accept money, the government can enforce the law, and give people no choice but to accept it.

The value of today's money comes from several sources:  1 - government law.  2 - the perception of people and labour (e.g. I get 7 dollars an hour and work my butt off for it, so I expect nothing less than list value) 3 - The fractional reserve system and the mandatory or intentional maintenance of reserves.


As for developing a system of Tuluki currency, there are a few recommendations.  First, at least one material in the coin should be either incredibly rare or illegal to possess.  

Second, since the Nakkers are only using obsidian coins, large-scale forgery could absolutely ruin Allanak's economy.  That's a bunch of fun.

Third, if possible, any new currency should be able to be "shaved", just like metal coins of old.  Shaving coins was common - people would shave down coins slightly, over time, such that each would be imperceptably lighter.  Then these people would collect up the gold and re-melt it, perhaps introducing a cheaper base metal, and allow them to extend their stock.  Currency forgery and shaving are both two areas that have huge RP/plot potential for North/South politics and subversion.  Just imagine Lukkis taking bags full of forged obsidian coins down south and going wild on spending, or bringing arms and weapons back to Luk.

Fortunately, new currency in a computer game is far easier to implement and control than it is in real life.

I'd like to see Tuluki currency, personally, I don't want to be hauling around any Nakker currency.  

[John]

Thanks for such a thought provoking post there Drunken.

A Tuluki Coin:

I'm warning everyone that this entire post is just how I think things probably are in Tuluk at the moment. All of it is pulled out of my crazu imagination so if things aren't like this then just ignore this section.

I imagine that the situation with Tuluk and Nobles' power is somewhat ambiguous. True the Nobles did win back Tuluk and have rebuilt it, but in a way, Tuluk and Allanak aren't the most important groups in the Known World. I imagine the World power system to be somewhat unstable and works through a wobbly relationship between the Merchant Houses and the Noble Houses. The Nobles are important in respect that they control the cities, they can kick anyone out of the cities that they want. The Merchants are important in the respect that they are needed for their wares, and also so trade can exist between the north and south, because I imagine the Northern Houses would never trade with the Southern Houses, but both want southern/northern items, so they're willing to trade with the Merchant Houses.

I imagine that the Tuluki Nobles aren't too powerful at the moment. People are unsure as to how things work in Tuluk to a degree, and they're deciding how certain things work. I imagine if Tuluk tried to introduce a new coinage that many merchants wouldn't accept it, because Allanak's power is clearly defined, while Tuluk's isn't as clearly defined. It'd be like with an amusement park having Disney coins, and Disney coins being useable in Disney, but everyone refusing to exchange the Disney coins back to American Dollars. So to avoid that, I imagine the Northern nobles would need Nenyuk's support with introducing it, so Nenyuk would need a benefit.

Also, the coin has to be made out of a substance that is common enough for the Tuluki Nobles to get at, but not common enough for everyone to easily make counterfeits.

A Barter System

I'm sadenned when someone points out the bartering system doesn't work (when i say bartering system, I mean barteruing an item for an item, not the "barter" command ). It would offer so much more depth to the game IMO with the barter system. It'd make it difficult to work out how much one item is worth, and it'd add more depth to the game IMO if it was utilized more. I imagine some tribes (especially reclusive ones) would view coins as a silly city concept, and use a barter system, because in a pinch an item can be used in a way it wasn't meant too, but coins can't really be used like that.

I propose the following change to make the barter system more attractive.

From the Offer Helpfile[/url]"]To exchange one item for another, say a shield for the sword:

> offer shield sword

Now to me, that's saying you can swap one item for one item, but you can't swap one item for 10 items, or 10 items for 1 item. Now if a method of allowing 10 items to be swapped for one item or vice versa, then the barter system would become much more attractive to many players. Because I'm sure many like me, WANT to swap items for items but they just can't because of how the mechanics currently work.

BTW if I misunderstood the helpfile PLEASE TELL ME!!!

Glass Coin System

This is what I was trying to explain in my first post, but I think Drunken explained it better. I made the mistake of saying paper could be used (I got the paper idea from the tickets that tailors and stables' use) but a glass coin (or some other rarish item) would be much better, because glass is pretty rare, but not COMPLETELY uncommon (especially for Nenyuk I imagine).

And now, because I can't resist.................

[silliness]

Anyway, if you'll pardon the pun, that's my two 'sids.

No, I won't pardon you for the pun!!! You shall die!!!!! *ahem* Today's act of random insanity was brought to you by coke. A soft drink it aint.

[/silliness]

[creeper386]

Well, first of all, I HIGHLY doubt shaving well work with anything BUT metal coins. Try to reform would or obsidian chips into another coin so that it looks like the original, it's highly unlikey.

Also, as it's been suggested, most likely an obsidian coin ISN'T worth it's weight in obsidian. If it's worth the same amount, or it's worth more, forgery would run rampant. Even if it's close to the same amount but below forgery would still be common, because even if the base material is worth more then the coin, it's alot easier to do business in the common currency instead of the base material.

It's like paper in our world, the paper itself is useless, it just represents the gold, or whatever valuable materials it's being replaced as. Really for the most part, the paper money is worth alot less and so it'd be worthless to use so much gold to forge money, although on Earth it's alittle screwy.

I'll use a Zalanthan example of how I think it'd work. Lets say you have a large chunk of obsidian, it's worth, say fifty obisidan coins, but it only large enough to make, say ten obsidian coins out of it. Now, even at a rate like this, if the ability to forge coins out of it was easy, it might be worth it, and alot easier, to make it into the ten coins, and use them to buy things instead of trying to find someone to buy or take the obsidian for it's face value. Thats just how i see it working, but that doesn't really relate to any of Tuluks new money.

First of all, I'd have to say, paper money would be out of the question. Although today, a dollar is probably worth abit more then the paper it's printed on, but, breakthroughs in making paper is a fairly recent thing, when it was still hand made, it tended to be expensive to get any but the most roughest papers, and it'd probably be more effort to make into paper, and if people still wanted to counterfiet money, it probably wouldn't be too hard. Also considering the fact that if in our world illiteracy and such were as common as it is in Allanak, paper money would never came into existance. The commoners wouldn't trust that the peice of paper is the same value as a piece of gold or silver.

More likely, I'd see wooden coins, or ceramic coins more likely, or maybe even square chips of whatever. Most likely it'd be of a rarer tree, or a clay that rare and the government has control over where it's mined. Or if they wanted to get really fancy maybe using glass or crystal, either one would most likely be common but the ability to shape them probably wouldn't be greatly wide known... SHRUG...


Creeper who rambled alot of nothing.

[Carnage]

I imagine that the situation with Tuluk and Nobles' power is somewhat ambiguous. True the Nobles did win back Tuluk and have rebuilt it, but in a way, Tuluk and Allanak aren't the most important groups in the Known World. I imagine the World power system to be somewhat unstable and works through a wobbly relationship between the Merchant Houses and the Noble Houses. The Nobles are important in respect that they control the cities, they can kick anyone out of the cities that they want.

The 'nobles' didn't win back Tuluk. The citizens and slaves did. Second, nobles can't kick anyone out of the cities that they want. They can TRY to persuade a templar to, but if that person is affiliated with any other house chances are high the templar's going to refuse.

The merchant houses are important because they supply most of the equipment. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that some houses have their equipment made by Salarr. Where else is the Byn going to get those tents to use? Kurac. The merchant houses are the people who are relied upon for most of these goods.

So to avoid that, I imagine the Northern nobles would need Nenyuk's support with introducing it, so Nenyuk would need a benefit.

Nenyuk would play a pivotal role in that respect, yes. They handle most of the money in the Known World. Nenyuk would be the aspect that makes or breaks the whole thing.

On the flip side of the coin, why would Nenyuk want to be a part of it? It would strain their relations with Allanak, since it would strain relations with Allanak. Face it, would you be happy with the group that tried to destroy your economy?

As for that whole barter system business...that would be a real bitch to code, and I doubt it would be used. How often do you go into a shop, sell your item, then buy something of equalish value? Not very often. It's more often selling some excess equipment to cover stabling fees, or to buy that expensive cloak you've been saving up for from another merchant. All in all, it's not worth the trouble.

[John]

The 'nobles' didn't win back Tuluk.

I'm not too up on how the whole rebel thing worked, I thought there might of been Nobles in charge of the rebels. It was before my time.

nobles can't kick anyone out of the cities that they want. They can TRY to persuade a templar to

I made a generalisation with the term nobles and I understand why it caused confusion. Sorry about that. When I said nobles, I mean the people who are in charge of the city as a whole, as apposed to an individual noble. The Allanaki Senate (that includes Nobles, Templars and Tek. I know the Tuluki government is quite different, but I'm not exactly sure HOW different) can (and did) ban people out of a city. They banned the gypsies at one stage from Allanak and later on decided to let them back in. IIRC they did the same to Kurac. So The Senate with Tek's approval could decide to ban Kadius from Allanak. Now this would hurt Kadius because it would mean they've lost a major source of trade, but it'd hurt Allanak just as much (if not more) because they'd have to go to independant merchants for the items.

Hope that clears up what I meant. And I hope I'm not misunderstanding how things work.

why would Nenyuk want to be a part of it? It would strain their relations with Allanak, since it would strain relations with Allanak. Face it, would you be happy with the group that tried to destroy your economy?

I thought of that and couldn't think of an answer. Tuluk would have to offer A LOT of benefits to convince Nenyuk to create/allow the coinage. And yes Nenyuk accepting to make the coin would put a strain on Allanaki relations, and they'd have to do some clever politicking to keep Allanak happy, but on the flip-side, if Tuluki made a TON of concessions and Nenyuk still refused, that would put a strain on Tuluk's and Nenyuk's relationship, because it might look like Nenyuk is trying to hobble the Tuluki economy. So all in all, if the Tuluki Nobles got it in their head to create their own coinage, I wouldn't want to be Nenyuk

[Angela Christine]

As far as coins of different denominations. The introduction of the coin would be a lot easier. If Nenyuk told all the merchant houses, "We now have a glass coin that looks exactly like the obsidian coin, and the glass coin is worth exactly fifty 'sid" the other houses would just shrug and start to use the coins when Nenyuk would only give them the glass coins unless otherwise requested.

Forget glass, have Allanak issue a tiny steel coin worth 100 'sid.  Woo, that's some good coin.

AC

[Happy Merc]

SOI mud has support for several types of currency (is set up with two types of currency) and with varied types of coins (I think it's 1, 10, 50, 100, 200, 500, 1000). But I am not sure how hard or easy is that to implement to our codebase.

[EvilRoeSlade]

They weren't coins, they were pottery smashed into bits which were then used as money.

[HunterKiller]

On an ooc basis I could care less what currency we used in-game.  On an IC level it makes perfect sense to me that Tuluk would want to reject allanaki coin and everything allanak.  Tuluki pride themselves on their artistic nature - artists create.  Allanak took them over and killed their people.  To let allanak dictate currency would be, I'd imagine, pretty revolting and disgusting to the patriots of the North - would Muk give his cronies allanaki coin to pay for contractors and slaves to rebuild the shit allanak trashed?  *boggle*  It wouldn't have surprised me, especially right after the ousting, that many in the North would've thrown out everything allanak and started fresh with their own goods / currency.

Back to OOC again, I agree the barter system would be best handled in this situation.  It would be a refreshing sign of independence if allanaki coin were made literally worthless in tuluk.  Luir's might accept both coin and goods.

- HK

[Larrath]

If there were two kinds of coinage, Luir's would absolutely accept both.  Luir's is run by the Merchant House Kurac.

Which brings me to my main point here - the Merchant Houses are big players in this.  When Kadius works both in Allanak and in Tuluk, they have no reason to not accept Allanaki coins in Tuluk and simply move those over on a wagon every now and then.

As much as the Templarates are more powerful than the Merchant Houses, and as much as Tektolnes could wipe Kurac off of the face of Zalanthas if they pissed him off sufficiently, the city-states still need the merchant houses for their weapons, armors, furniture, clothes, drugs, taverns, banking managements and those awesome hawkers that wander around.

[Gaare]

-More types of coins sounds cool. Like a hand sized coin which may value one hundred, a large piece values one thousand, etc.. But on the other hand, why do we need that? I mean it sounds to complex to code such really. Also, example of coinage in SOI really sucks. It sounds fine at first and really fun while trading with NPCs.. but I do not agree it means much while trying to pay something to PCs. (time consument especially with two items in inventory.)

-Tuluki coinage. Well, I guess there must be some real IC reason which stops Tuluk to create her own coins. I have a theory.  If creating one obsidian coin costs around one obsidian coin.. Well, this means 'nak does not create more coins if and only if cost of creating coins becomes profitable.

So, being the single producer of coin does not bring anything to 'nak but mostly OOC prestige. ICly I doubt anybody really cares, but some  chosens and faithfuls.

[Maybe42or54]

Well, the ministry of Proganda says this:

We shall make a coin. Nenyuk will make every obsidian coin worth fifty 'sid.
We will make a wooden coin worth 1 'sid.
We shall continue to call the obsidian coin the Allanaki Coin.
We shall call the new coin, worth 1, the Tuluki Coin.

Thereby proving that Allanak is worth more than Tuluk.

[proxie]

interesting idea.

So the merchant Houses take Allanaki coins in Tuluk and Allanak and everywhere in between.

But your Joe Schmoe independent merchant? Maybe they only take the salvaged ceramic cups from the Tooth or the Firestorm. Or loreshi reeds. Baobab twigs. Perhaps barter item for item in the inde merchant stands, and you have to go to Kadius to buy a wooden cup to barter to Jane the small barrel maker.

Okay, on second thought, that... would really be painfully slow. But a Tuluki currency and Nenyuk taking their cut for exchanging the 'sid back and forth? And Luirs gleefully hand over fisting each form without regard? Sounds cool to me.

Proxie

[richter]

Already discussed and pointed out the impractical nature of obsidian as a form of currency.  I like the idea about ceramic.  Would make much more sense really since the material is much easier to mint.

As for SoI's code, it uses a modified version of Harshland's code, both of which feature more than one kind of coin object (HL using pennies and farthings and SoI using a decimal system).

Take care,

Jason