I'm about to retire my pickpocket

[FightClub]

People have suggested to play in Tuluk, to focus on other aspects of your PC, to find a different clan, or find a way to mix things up in your own clan. If none of that is working, maybe this role isn't the right one for you. Either way, a bit of civility in the tone of your posts would really work wonders if you wanted sympathy.

I have a communication disorder.  

Join the club.

[Maxed Pickpocket]

My pickpocket has stolen jewels, bits of metal, and my personal favorite: I followed a guy from his house to the Gaj, stole his key, and then went back to his house.

Pickpockets have enormous potential. Just remember that people have to open containers eventually.

[Angela Christine]

If it is any consolation, making stealing more difficult means that there will probably be fewer pickpockets, which means less PC competition for you.  Cold comfort I'm sure, but not completely useless.  

Occasionally you get some dagger lifting bandits around, and after replacing their weapons a few times people start keeping their real or valuable weapons locked up, and only keeping cheap backup weapons on the belt.  The more practicing PC pickpockets there are, the more careful people get about keeping their valuables locked up.  Belts and pockets that can be closed become absurdly valuable.  I can't speak for everyone else, but if my PC hasn't been robbed in a while I get lax about locking things up, I leave stuff in my inventory and even leave my pack open.  If just a little is going missing at a time I may not even notice, ICly or OOCly.  So the code thinning out the competition can be good for the survivors.  

You just have to be one of those survivors.   :wink:


Angela Christine

[Tlaloc]

I don't want to join the Guild.

If you think that I'm wrong about not joining the Guild, then by all means go ahead and say so along with your reasons why. But I have made contact with the Guild already, and it seems like all they want to do is take a cut of the money I earn. I'm not interested.

As an aside, I just want to add this:

Choosing to try and become a part of the Guild (or not) is your own character's choice. However, I think you are probably underestimating the advantages of joining The Guild, if this is all you think they do. Ultimately, everyone pays the Guild, in one way or another. Those that don't pay can often find themselves living a very "unlucky" life, or even find their lifespans shortened considerably.

[WarriorPoet]

I think the OP should read Tlaloc's above post very, very carefully. The Guild opens up a new dimension to -anyone- who deals with them. The disadvantages barely exist alongside the perks of being one of them.

Pickpockets never interested me, so that's all I've got. Hope the role picks up, though. Or maybe he can come bother me and I'll stick a knife in his stupid face and you can go play an fme.

-WP jokes.

[Larrath]

About stealing things your character normally shouldn't be able to, you should start making use of Hemotes and the Wish command, perhaps.

Code Select Expand


> Wish all I'm going to try and steal Joe's sapphire ring.  Would appreciate help.

> say (grinning on his way over, waving) Joe, you old piece of rotten gith shit!  How ya been?

> emote holds his hand out to ~joe, grinning.
> hemote tightens his fingers around %joe ring, slipping it off of ^joe hand as they shake hands.
> wish all Hey, I tried that steal now if the ring can be passed to me (with a suitable echo to Joe if needed).

> hemote extends his leg out to the side, tripping a grizzled, one-armed man that walks beside him.

> say (glaring at a grizzled, one-armed man as he stumbles into him) Hey, watch where the fuck you're going you stupid gith.

> change ldesc is here, brawling wildly.


I am generally siding with Jester here - I seriously believe that pickpockets should be able to steal more than they currently are.  There appears to be very little upwards growth for a pickpocket once they can steal more reliably - they can still only take the same things, those things being what other players consciously put in risk of being stolen unless they get lucky with newer players or timing when someone is opening their backpack and not closing it right away.

Pickpockets should not all work as aide.  Some pickpockets are professional pickpockets just like some assassins are professional assassins.  And aren't professional assassins the exact reason why a merchant can kill someone for the price of shoes?  Many rangers work as professional 'rangers' as hunters or raiders.  Many warriors work as professional warriors in the Byn or as House Guards or Militia personnel.  Many magickers work as professional magickers, selling their awesome powers.  Many assassins work as professional assassins, many Merchants work as professional merchants or crafters, and many burglars work as professional burglars, slipping through locked doors and raising hell.
And everyone can also do a job that has nothing to do with their coded skills, and it's possible to succeed and become very prominent in either way.
Why are Pickpockets the only ones that are left out on this?  A pickpocket can make a great aide, a nice spy... But why can't a Pickpocket be able to financially support himself using his ability to steal?  Why must a pickpocket be limited to crap items placed on belts or in the inventory or to practically exploit OOC oversights on behalf of other players to steal from their opened backpacks?  A professional ranger can make a crapload of money bringing back rare hides and materials when they get more experienced.  Why can't pickpockets start 'bringing back' rarer belongings such as jewelry, small pouches (even though tied to the ankle or wrist) and so on?

[spawnloser]

I do have to agree with the fact that pickpockets should be capable of stealing things they are not currently capable of stealing.  In real life, they can take your watch off your wrist without you noticing, why not on the mud?  Same for rings and earrings.  In another game I played, it was possible to steal the weapon from someone's hand as they're trying to kill you with it (a la The Beast taking the guy's gun in Kung Fu Hustle) and saw nothing wrong with it.  Granted, you'd have to be DAMN good at steal to do that without being spotted, but doing it without the person having the ability to stop you initially?  I see no problem with it.

As far as the OP, I'll also back up Tlaloc.  Hooking in with the Guild may open one's eyes to what they're really like as well as open up new avenues for one to explore.

[Hymwen]

I do have to agree with the fact that pickpockets should be capable of stealing things they are not currently capable of stealing.  In real life, they can take your watch off your wrist without you noticing, why not on the mud?  Same for rings and earrings.  In another game I played, it was possible to steal the weapon from someone's hand as they're trying to kill you with it (a la The Beast taking the guy's gun in Kung Fu Hustle) and saw nothing wrong with it.  Granted, you'd have to be DAMN good at steal to do that without being spotted, but doing it without the person having the ability to stop you initially?  I see no problem with it.

As far as the OP, I'll also back up Tlaloc.  Hooking in with the Guild may open one's eyes to what they're really like as well as open up new avenues for one to explore.

Opening people's containers should be possible for very very skilled thieves, but I'm not sure how I feel about stealing equipped items... while in theory and reality it's possible to steal someone's wristwatch or necklace or something, that requires a major feat of distraction that isn't codedly possible. You can't just walk up to someone and take their ring off without them noticing.

As for joining the Guild, you people make it sound so simple. First of all, let's remember the first thing that most people are told about the guild: "Don't look for them, they will find you if they need you". Not only is asking for the Guild quite dangerous, but also a bit unrealistic as most 'rinthers have only heard very vague rumors if anything at all. Also, there's the very good chance that the person you're suggesting this to isn't even a 'rinther, in which case joining the Guild is IMO not even an option to be considered. Also remember that of all clans, the Guild is probably the one that goes through the most and longest periods of inactivity and player shortage.

[Maybe42or54]

If you are actively trying to get into the guild, you might jump an email to the Clan Imms and say that you've been trying to get in, but havn't found any. Can they find me?

[ale six]

(Disclaimer: I haven't played a thief since the new watch code changes, so I don't know what those guilds are like now. But I have played a pickpocket and a burglar both, and both of them would have easily been able to make a living off of their skills alone if necessary. Easily.)

I think saying a pickpocket can't support herself by stealing things is simply wrong. It's vastly understating their skill. A good pickpocket can wipe clean everything in your inventory and any unclosable container without breaking a sweat. I've seen some of them steal expensive daggers out of wristsheaths my character was wearing, which to me seemed silly enough, and that ought to still be easier than pulling a ring off your finger or a bracelet off your wrist. When you account for the haggle skill, I can almost guarantee that a career pickpocket will make enough money to live on and probably even rent a decent sized apartment off her income, too. (I STILL don't think most sane people would want to be career thieves by choice in the face of safer ways to gain money.)

I recognize it's rarely used, but picks have a way to steal equipped items already: the sap skill. Planning a hit like that would take a bit of time, preparation, and risk, but ultimately I'd prefer that to letting thieves have open buffet on people's jewelery. I really don't think they need more ability to swipe things.

Basically, I would rather make it hard on thief guilds and force them to be smart than make it easier on them and watch everything that a PC doesn't have glued onto their person disappear as they sit in taverns.

[Aldiel]

They do for the RP aspect of it, but they do nothing to the fact that trying to steal anything that weighs more than a bone dagger or a glow crystal seems impossible (at least for me so far), and stealing even the lightest of items with an AI-agility PC has a failure rate of at least 20-30% for me.

I would think that stealing anything larger than a small item in RL would be pretty hard.  I would assume trying to steal the armor off someone's back would be quite a trick.  I haven't played a pickpocket with the new peek implemented, but I trust in the immortal's decisions, and the new way just seems way more realistic, so I like it.  I also have very little sympathy for code freaks.

[The Jester]

As for joining the Guild, you people make it sound so simple. First of all, let's remember the first thing that most people are told about the guild: "Don't look for them, they will find you if they need you". Not only is asking for the Guild quite dangerous, but also a bit unrealistic as most 'rinthers have only heard very vague rumors if anything at all. Also, there's the very good chance that the person you're suggesting this to isn't even a 'rinther, in which case joining the Guild is IMO not even an option to be considered. Also remember that of all clans, the Guild is probably the one that goes through the most and longest periods of inactivity and player shortage.

Well, I've already found the Guild, and they basically said that they wanted me.  One of the reasons that I refused entry (besides the fact that they seemed like thief-barons that just wanted to take my money) is that it seemed like every player they had was a 'rinther, while my character was most definitely not one, and I don't really want people to see me associating with them too much, since it would give the game away, and besides I don't even LIKE 'rinthers.

Does anyone who has experience with the Guild have anything to say to that?  Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?  Because at this point I'm considering caving in and just doing it, since it's one of the only solid pieces of advice I've gotten so far.

[Hymwen]

Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?

The thought of a non-'rinther even entering the 'rinth is in most cases absurd, unless the PC has a very good reason to.

(edited to add some more)

I've had a Guild PC. I don't know if there's a different leader now, or how things are being handled, but unless you have something very important that they want, I can't imagine why they would ask you to join. I don't know anything about your PC or what the Guild is doing these days, but them asking a non-'rinther to join seems crazy unless you have something special that only you can give them. And think about it from your PC's point of view. Take yourself as an example, think of the absolutely worst place in your country. The poorest, dirtiest slum. Now imagine it ten times worse, with plague in the streets and people fighting and killing constantly. Would your character even consider going there, let alone associate with a gang from that place?

[palomar]

The thought of a non-'rinther even entering the 'rinth is in most cases absurd, unless the PC has a very good reason to.

This does not mean you can't work for 'em anyway.
I'd say give it a try, The Jester, you'll probably have a lot fun. And you know, there are reasons to why they want a cut of your profits. Actually, I think it'd be silly if they didn't.

[Ghost]

Does anyone who has experience with the Guild have anything to say to that? Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?

It depends.  I would suggest you to try your way in the game and observe it yourself.  The things about the clans are, you are always supposed to learn about them in the game, by yourself.  The Guild is for one, a secretive clan.  So things like who can join, who can not should be dealt in the game.

But since you met them and they want you, it looks like you will find your way in one way or another.  Maybe they will take you on some conditions, or maybe you will partly be one of them or maybe they will take you as one of their own.  But you should be the one to find which one is it.

[Folker]

Well, I've already found the Guild, and they basically said that they wanted me.  One of the reasons that I refused entry (besides the fact that they seemed like thief-barons that just wanted to take my money) is that it seemed like every player they had was a 'rinther, while my character was most definitely not one, and I don't really want people to see me associating with them too much, since it would give the game away, and besides I don't even LIKE 'rinthers.

I do not have experience with the Guild itself, but I do have some idea of what clans do in Armageddon. The clans, the guild included, are not there to exploit your character. They are there to give a starting mingling platform for your character to participate in the storyline of Armageddon itself. In other words, they're there to facilitate your roleplay, which sometimes ... involves exploitation (just one side of a roleplay). But in the end, I'm certain they'll help your character more then hurt it, not because they like your character, or even want to help you. But because that's what the clans are all about. They'll help you get involved, aswell as offer some amount of influence and safety net. And while I doubt the only thing they want is your coin, because if they do, they'll probably be the most consequenceless clan in the game, except maybe Byn.

I can tell you right now, that some of my characters have pulled off their nasty plans from people after learning their guild conencted.

[Boggis]

WellOne of the reasons that I refused entry (besides the fact that they seemed like thief-barons that just wanted to take my money) is that it seemed like every player they had was a 'rinther, while my character was most definitely not one

Thief-barons that wanted to take your money? Refusing entry or refusing to deal with them? I'm not sure that you quite get what the Guild is and just what a powerful and downright scary organisation you're dealing with. As the docs say the Guild "demands a fear from the town's merchants, commoners and other organisations", that it's "reach seems to have no limits when it concerns their sinister business" and that "it is Allanak's largest and undisputed organised crime mob". And you think you can just say "no" to these people? If you're some local thief or business and the mafia comes along saying that they want a piece of your action and in return you get to keep on breathing nice and regular do you say no? Think of it something like Bill the Butcher in that movie Gangs of New York. -Everyboy- paid their quarter up to him because if you didn't you'd wind up dead in an alley. Would you have the balls to say "no" to Bill the Butcher? The Guild can be seen to be like this. When they say they want a quarter of your earnings it's not exactly a polite request that you can opt out if it aggrieves you too much. You can choose not to pay of course... might be a quick solution to the retire or not retire question.

Does anyone who has experience with the Guild have anything to say to that?  Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?  Because at this point I'm considering caving in and just doing it, since it's one of the only solid pieces of advice I've gotten so far.

I played in the Guild for over 2 RL years with one character and it's a great place to play a wide variety of shady roles from alley thug to shadowy informant. If you have something to offer the Guild then you can work with them or for them. There'll generally be mostly 'rinthers in the Guild but not exclusively so. There's plenty of ways that somebody can work for the Guild. They're not going to lay out everything they do as soon as they meet you. Suffice to say that they have numerous interests and if you do well in your initial tasks then you might be given some more responsibility. If you don't like 'rinthers or you don't want anything to do with the Guild then that's fine but you'll still be paying up if they want it.

[marko]

I played in the Guild many years ago.

The Guild can, in my experience, be an amazing organization or a really crappy one.  Basically, it's like any other clan in the game in that it depends entirely upon the PCs that are involved in it.

Sometimes it is a bunch of yahoos who act like chipped 'sid toughs and sometimes it has professionals.  

Do non-'rinthers joing the Guild?  Absolutely.  Many within the Guild structure are non-'rinthers (or were).

If you don't like the characters that are in the Guild currently then it may not be the organization for you at this time.  Of course, since the Guild has its interests to watch out for, your character may (or may not) come into conflict with them because of this.

Good luck.

[Nidhogg]

Does anyone who has experience with the Guild have anything to say to that?  Is it 'not even an option to consider' if you aren't a 'rinther?  Because at this point I'm considering caving in and just doing it, since it's one of the only solid pieces of advice I've gotten so far.

I think I have a fair bit of experience with the Guild, though it may be somewhat outdated as Zalanthas is also subject to evolution. I think the only requirement to suceed in the guild is the same requirement to suceed in any clan, the force or your personality or your willingness to be cooperative. Not liking rinthers while not a happy thing for your pc can be a very happy thing for you the player.  In fact if he really hates rinthers imagine how satisfying it will be when he's making a profit from them, rather than them making a profit from him, if he can suceed to that extent.

[HunterKiller]

Burglar and pickpocket won't typically do that well by themselves, imo.  They fight for shit and even long-lived characters won't do that well at all in combat.  I think you should focus on an interdependence with another clan, meaning pick one where you can offer something they don't have, at the same time providing you an umbrella in case things don't go your way (and they won't for a while).

I think thieves do better with friends.  A loner thief will get chased all over the map for stealing a torch or scarf (seen it happen).  Heh, there are always "IC reasons" for this to happen but in the end everyone knows that thief is alone and that they fight for shit anyways ...  If on the other hand the thief has three buff warriors standing behind him the thief's victims may decide the few sid or item isn't worth getting their ass handed to them and leave to fight another day.

In the end, if you have enough muscle you can be what you want to be.  You can take what you want, kill who you like.  Most organizations will prefer some okay warriors as opposed to a handful of "really good" thieves because the stronger you are, the more you can do - that's just the way it's always been.  The real need for thieves comes when your employer faces a formidable adversary - then the need develops to have things done passively, on the sly, on the DL, secretly.  :-)  These organizations tend to be the large ones, noble and merchant houses, templarate, etc.  Working on your own will tend to keep you out of the loop of those persons who might desperately need you so avoiding clans is not a very smart move.  Most will let you out after a certain time period, join on with one of those and let them protect you while you get better at ...  what you do.  :-)

- HK

[Intrepid]

The main problem here is that Jester wants to be a super-thief and isn't.

The answer to that is simple:

- Arm does not owe you a free meal.
- No one guaranteed you an easy existence as a pickpocket.
- There is no coded formula to become a legendary pickpocket.
- Arm does not owe you a legendary pickpocket.
- It is possible to play a legendary pickpocket.
- The odds of playing said legend are equal to what a legend should be-slim.
- Your playability ends where all the non-pickpockets' playability begins.
- Play a high-risk character or not.  But don't also complain about it here if you chose to.

I've read this thread from top to bottom, and what you're looking for here
is not advice--you want agreement.  You've chewed out every single
person who has offered advice that did not conform to your narrow vision
of what a pickpocket is, and this needs to stop immediately.  I was
sympathetic to your plight in the beginning, but the more I think about it,
the more I'm realizing that all you want to do is entreat the rest of the
playerbase for a license for your pc to do anything he pleases to them
and be thanked, just because he played a class called Pickpocket.  No
way, pal.  You're going to need to actually work for this one or find a new
angle in the game.

[Synthesis]

I second Intrepid and move for the thread to be locked, on grounds of its having moved from pickpockets in general into the IC-sensitive area of speculation on The Guild's activities.

[Morgenes]

Agreed.