Cavilish

[Marauder Moe]

The current implementation of who speaks Cavilish doesn't make sense to me.  As per the docs:

Because of the history of Cavilish, it is sometimes referred to as the "Merchant's Tongue," since it is used almost exclusively by the current members and owning families of Merchant Houses.

(emphasis mine)

And yet... every crafter/trader Amos, Malik, and Joram speaks it fluently from the day they learned to tan a hide, not to mention all the elves and dwarves who are also good at crafting things.  On top of that, it's the most precise guild-sniffing tool available.  I've seen a lot of merchant house interviews where the first question is "Do you speak Cavilish?"

I think, either one of two things needs to happen:

1) Cavilish is removed from the guild_merchant skill list and given only to Merchant House family members.

OR

2) Note in the docs that Cavilish has become more common among independant merchants AND add a subguild "trader" with value, barter, and Cavilish.

[Delirium]

I completely agree.

Either implimentation would be fine by me, but I would like to see one of them.

[Cale_Knight]

Yeah, it's especially silly since at least two of the three merchant houses treat Cavilish as a kind of secret code language, and don't like their employees teaching it to non-house members.

[Larrath]

Agreed.  Cavilish is entirely too common and people are far too willing to flaunt knowing it in public.  I see Cavilish as Tatlum to a lesser degree, and people who aren't meant to know it would be making themselves a target to be killed by a Merchant House if they showed it off.

It would be nice to see the language removed from future Merchants, or to have to specifically request the language while applying for the character and providing a reason why they would know it.

I can't really see it happening, sadly.

[Vanth]

This is not an official staff stance, but just my personal opinion:

There is a difference between exclusively and almost exclusively.  The vast majority of cavilish speakers are either born into a merchant house or end up working for one.  Yes, merchant houses are a bit snobby and prefer to hire cavilish speakers, because that is the tongue they are most comfortable with.  Yes, this ends up feeling like guild-sniffing.

I would be fine with seeing some changes to the way things are done now, such as lowering the starting cavilish fluency of non-merchant-family merchants, or adding it to a subguild. But on the other hand, it doesn't feel particularly 'broken' to me as it is.

[Cale_Knight]

peakers are either born into a merchant house or end up working for one.  Yes, merchant houses are a bit snobby and prefer to hire cavilish speakers, because that is the tongue they are most comfortable with.

That's really not how it's RPed, though. Go look at the Kuraci docs where they relate to Cavilish.

[flurry]

I think, either one of two things needs to happen:

1) Cavilish is removed from the guild_merchant skill list and given only to Merchant House family members.

I would be really disappointed to see this happen.  From my perspective, cavilish is one of the more important, and realistic, perks of guild_merchant.

I detest guild sniffing too, but that's not a good reason to remove a skill.  Especially in this case, when the sniffing can only succeed with the consent of the sniffee.  You can keep knowledge of cavilish absolutely secret if you choose to, easily.

Cavilish is the language of commerce, and I don't think it's intended to be exclusive to the Great Merchant Houses.  I interpret that quote more broadly to include minor merchant families too.

OR

2) Note in the docs that Cavilish has become more common among independant merchants AND add a subguild "trader" with value, barter, and Cavilish.

Yes to the first part, and an emphatic no to the second part, IMHO.  It should be reserved for genuine merchants, not for people who dabble in trade.

[Marauder Moe]

I personally would prefer the second option.  With the Way, secret languages don't really add that much to the game.

It should be reserved for genuine merchants, not for people who dabble in trade.

Cavilish is not a trade language.  It's the language of nomadic descendants who admittedly have a cultural affinity for mercantile arts.  Most speakers would have learned it from their families at an early age, or at the very least some of them would.  Thus, it should be linked with background (subguilds) as well as profession.

[Pantoufle]

Giving Cavilish to subguilds would only make the guild, itself, worthless.  "Guild sniffing" as you call it is the fault of the sniffer in question and not he who possesses Cavilish, Bendune, or any other guild/subguild related skill.  For that matter a mercenary recruiter might ask a potential worker if he can "bash people to the ground".  Any affirmative answer implies the person is guild_warrior.  Additionally, I could ask someone in an interview if he knows how to "camp" out in the wilderness and I'll know with 100% accuracy what his guild is (unless he's lying).

It may make little sense for a dwarf or elf who has chosen guild_merchant to start with Cavilish, so it's really up to these players to add in their background how they learned an otherwise human tongue.

[flurry]

Cavilish is not a trade language.  It's the language of nomadic descendants who admittedly have a cultural affinity for mercantile arts.  Most speakers would have learned it from their families at an early age, or at the very least some of them would.  Thus, it should be linked with background (subguilds) as well as profession.

Hmm -- maybe "the language of commerce" is too strong, but it was developed among traders.   It's not used only for trade, nor is it the exclusive trade tongue, but it is most definitely used for trade, to my understanding.  Especially significant trade.

I don't like the idea of giving it to a subguild, because I really think it belongs to PCs that are really heavily mercantile in nature.   If it's a really significant part of your background, but you want to be a warrior, I'd rather see that as a special ap.

[Marauder Moe]

According to the documentation, it belongs to people who's families descended from the Dune Traders.  It's very specific about it.

[Anonymous]

I see it as a trade language.  If you spent too much time in any market, you tend to pick up the language.  Why do people use it?  The language itself is a little archaicI see it as a "trader culture" language.  If you spent too much time in any market, you tend to pick up the language.  I tend to justify my merchants knowing the language because they come from a merchant family that worked in the bazaar.  Part of working in the bazaar involves hearing and being taught Cavilish.  If your folks ran a stand in the Allanaki bazaar and you grew up helping them run it, I think that is justification enough to say that you know Cavilish.

As for the reasons to know the language:

First, it is a semi-secret language.  If you can rattle on in Cavilish, you can have a conversation that relatively secret out in the open.  Sure, others around you might know what you are saying, but chances are your average passerby won't have any clue what you are babbling about.  This is very useful in a market.  If you need to haggle with another merchant, scold an employee, or simply deny your customers the information of what you are asking your boss about, you have a way to do it.  Cavilish is a way to hide the inner workers of a market from the users of a market.  Hiding information about the workings of your business from your customer is ALWAYS a good policy.

Imagine the utility of having a semi-secret language when selling to others.  Imagine you are growing up as a child helping your parents work a booth in the bazaar.  If a customer comes asking about the price of a certain good you have, you can look over to mom and ask her in Cavilish what price they want to sell at, and inform her that the item has a chip in it that the customer has not yet seen the chip.  Mom can then respond that you can sell it for 15 'sid, even though it is only worth 10 'sid with the dent in it.  You can then look up at the customer, smile, and tell him that you talked your mom down from 20 'sid to 17 'sid.

If a supplier for your little stand in the bazaar comes over restock you and you have customers standing there, you don't need to air out the prices you are paying publicly.  By conversing in Cavilish, you can haggle with your supplier without the customers hearing the price you are paying.  By denying them this information, they can not use it to force you down to lower prices.

Second, Cavilish is a status symbol.  If you know Cavilish, it means that someone either taught it to you, or you spent enough time in a market to pick it up on your own.  Either way, it shows a certain level of dedication to the mercantile arts.

[FightClub]

I see it as a trade language.  If you spent too much time in any market, you tend to pick up the language.  Why do people use it?  The language itself is a little archaicI see it as a "trader culture" language.  If you spent too much time in any market, you tend to pick up the language.  I tend to justify my merchants knowing the language because they come from a merchant family that worked in the bazaar.  Part of working in the bazaar involves hearing and being taught Cavilish.  If your folks ran a stand in the Allanaki bazaar and you grew up helping them run it, I think that is justification enough to say that you know Cavilish.

As for the reasons to know the language:

First, it is a semi-secret language.  If you can rattle on in Cavilish, you can have a conversation that relatively secret out in the open.  Sure, others around you might know what you are saying, but chances are your average passerby won't have any clue what you are babbling about.  This is very useful in a market.  If you need to haggle with another merchant, scold an employee, or simply deny your customers the information of what you are asking your boss about, you have a way to do it.  Cavilish is a way to hide the inner workers of a market from the users of a market.  Hiding information about the workings of your business from your customer is ALWAYS a good policy.

Imagine the utility of having a semi-secret language when selling to others.  Imagine you are growing up as a child helping your parents work a booth in the bazaar.  If a customer comes asking about the price of a certain good you have, you can look over to mom and ask her in Cavilish what price they want to sell at, and inform her that the item has a chip in it that the customer has not yet seen the chip.  Mom can then respond that you can sell it for 15 'sid, even though it is only worth 10 'sid with the dent in it.  You can then look up at the customer, smile, and tell him that you talked your mom down from 20 'sid to 17 'sid.

If a supplier for your little stand in the bazaar comes over restock you and you have customers standing there, you don't need to air out the prices you are paying publicly.  By conversing in Cavilish, you can haggle with your supplier without the customers hearing the price you are paying.  By denying them this information, they can not use it to force you down to lower prices.

Second, Cavilish is a status symbol.  If you know Cavilish, it means that someone either taught it to you, or you spent enough time in a market to pick it up on your own.  Either way, it shows a certain level of dedication to the mercantile arts.

Or you could use the way.

[John]

There is a difference between exclusively and almost exclusively.

But at the moment it's downright common. Perhaps move it to become a "subguild only" language (such as bendune).

The vast majority of cavilish speakers are either born into a merchant house or end up working for one.

But at the moment this simply isn't the case. If I want to make someone who has the possibility to become a master <item> crafter, I have to choose the Merchant guild. Which means unless I get Imm assistance, I'm going to be able to speak Cavilish.

But on the other hand, it doesn't feel particularly 'broken' to me as it is.

I personally disagree and I always ask to have Cavilish removed from my chars (if they get it). It would be like if all Rangers got Bendune (which actually makes more sense then Cavilish with Merchant), the language would become pretty common.

Cavilish is the language of commerce, and I don't think it's intended to be exclusive to the Great Merchant Houses.  I interpret that quote more broadly to include minor merchant families too.

I disagree with that, and if the staff agree with you, the docs definitely need to be changed.

Giving Cavilish to subguilds would only make the guild, itself, worthless.

Wha? Having a language that every crafter and noble's aide speaks is the only worthwhile thing about the Merchant guild? Have you ever played an extremely long-lived and skilled merchant?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally, I agree that Calvish should become an exclusive laungage to Merchant House reps, like Tatlum is for Templars. Unlike Tatlum, however, it would not be illegal to learn or speak Calvish, just unusual.

Another option might be to branch Calvish off of some other langauge skill, and only for Merchants.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, the complaint that giving a subguild cavilish would make merchant useless, I think, Is crap. Merchants are the one thing that can craft atleast half the craftable items. There is no other guild/subguild that can do that.

[LoD]

To help determine the status of Cavilish, it would seem that we should review the entire documentation rather than snippets.

Part of the so-called 'nomadic' group of languages, this tongue was evidently descended directly from Bendune. It shares most of the same characteristics, such as vowel usage, but possesses a sentence-structuring approach more similar to that of Sirihish or Tatlum.

As will be described later, the language obviously began as spoken Bendune and later changed to adopt the structure of city influences as the nomadic tribes settled into either city-state for the purpose of trade.

The legendary dune traders of ages past, once traveling merchants of nomadic heritage who spoke Bendune, settled in the city-states at Gol Krathu and Vrun Driath somewhere in the vicinity of one thousand years after the Dragon's departure from the Known World. At once they began to adopt the languages of their customers, who spoke mostly Sirihish. Within their homes, however, they continued to use their native Bendune speech.

And so the legendary dune traders come to rest in what are now Allanak and Tuluk.  They were forced to deal with their customers in their own language to facilitate trade, yet they still spoke their native language at home.  I imagine this is common for quite a few families that have parents who were not born in the United States (i.e. I had a Taiwanese friend growing up that only spoke Taiwanese in the home).

With the passage of generations, the younger family members, eager to assimilate more fully into the culture of the city-states, made more and more use of Sirihish language structures. As time wore on, their native Bendune became so changed that it was categorized by scholars as its own language.

Influenced by the surrounding culture and language of the cities, these now sedintary traders begin to assimilate Sirihish into their own tongue and create a completely new dialect.  This new dialect eventually changed enough to be considered its own tongue, spoken by a people descended from nomadic traders.  And that is where the language stayed.  It is human nature to prefer your own people, move in your own circles, associate with your own kind.  While this isn't Earth, I imagine it was still the practice for descendants of these dune traders to marry/couple within their own circles.  The language slowly became associated with Merchants because while it is truly a trait of the culture (not the profession), large families would likely follow a particular business/trade, passing their knowledge from generation to generation.  And their business was merchanting.

Because of the history of Cavilish, it is sometimes referred to as the Merchants' Tongue, since it is used almost exclusively by the current members and owning families of Merchant Houses.

From this passage I make the link (and perhaps assumption) that Cavilish is now spoken almost exclusively by the current members and owning families of Merchant Houses because those families are descendants of the legendary dune traders.  Their use of the language is cultural rather than professional.  Their family business just happens to be merchanting, and so it has become associated with trade.  If they were a fighting family, then perhaps Cavilish would have become the "Warrior's Tongue".

While one can argue that Cavilish should be allowd as a sub guild selection, I wouldn't like to see it.  I'd rather see someone special app if they believe their non-merchant would have had reasonable access to this language.  Those who select the merchant class have chosen (or been forced to choose) a trading profession that likely includes being taught this language as a result of the surrounding culture.

And that is why I prefer the merchant class to retain the language skill, because it reflects not only a necessary evil of surviving in mercantile politics, but also a strong part of their culture.  These descendants of dune traders, now operating massive monopolies, would be selective with whom they do business.  Speaking THEIR language would be in the interest of any "real" merchant who has been trained in something more than learning a few paltry trade skills to supplement their true profession.

One should think of Cavilish as the Merchant's Tongue not because it is the province of merchants, but because of the cultural impact the descendant's of the dune traders have had on the profession.  And in a time when there are no "Leatherworking for Dummies" books or online documentation, where do you think people learn their crafts?  These trading and crafting families have likely gathered and protected the secrets of their trade for years.  Trade professions require very specific knowledge.  Even now there are still people that apprentice to craftsman for years in order to quickly master what took generations of people to learn, hone and perfect.

Those people who select the merchant class should consider just where their capacity for crafting such a wide variety of items has come from, and from whom they learned.  Chances are the people who taught them were likely directly or closely related to these descendants with whom Cavilish has remained the 'tool of the tongue' for their family business.

-LoD

[Tamarin]

What I find funny is that it's supposed to be a secretive, elusive language among the merchant families, but as soon as two of them get together, they always have a long gab out in a public area where everyone can hear them.  Enough so that people are going to start picking it up.

Perhaps thou shalst...uh...protects...uh...thine tongue sooth...uh...

:oops:

[LoD]

What I find funny is that it's supposed to be a secretive, elusive language among the merchant families, but as soon as two of them get together, they always have a long gab out in a public area where everyone can hear them.  Enough so that people are going to start picking it up.

Perhaps thou shalst...uh...protects...uh...thine tongue sooth...uh...

:oops:

Well, I don't see the language so much secretive as cultural.

I believe they choose not to speak it widely because it's reserved for the company of fellow merchants rather than secret partners.  And it wouldn't just be the language, it would be a combination of things.  

For example, let's say that horticulturists spoke Horta.  Two of them are in a tavern speaking Horta with each other, not because they want to be secret, but because that's the culture between them and it ALSO serves to protect their conversation somewhat from those who don't have any business in their discussion.

Now a 'rinthi has been listening to them for months and can finally piece together some of the words.  Then he starts trying to join the conversation.  It would probably become quickly apparent that this person did not learn Horta as a result of their culture or profession, but as a result of listening to them because they wouldn't have the other knowledge necessary to carry on the conversation.  One question about which plant can be found far to the west, perfers shade, and has a minty smell and they'll see this person is a fraud.

The language is considered secretive to those that are not part of the cutlure, and likely commonplace to the people who are.  Some folks interpret having this language as being granted a "power" or "ability" that should not be shared, so as to make them feel special or unique, but I really don't think that's the case.  The fact that most non-merchants wouldn't be able to understand their business conversations is more likely a beneficial byproduct than an engineered tool.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

It's a language used almost exclusively by members of the merchant houses, right?  Where in that document does it say 'THE GREAT MERCHANT HOUSES' ?  Honestly, there are more merchant families out there that simply don't operate on the scale that the GMH's do.

You want to have your merchants not know cavilish because they're only crafters that don't deal with other people that speak cavilish a lot?  Fine, have it removed from your character.  Everyone else can make the same determination for themselves.

I think it is fine to give merchant guild characters cavilish because not EVERY noble and noble's aide has the that as a guild.  You're exaggerating, John.

[Bebop]

I like the idea of snuffing it from non-family Merchant House completely.  IF a merchant ends up working for a merchant House then the Agent or family member Merchant can choose to teach their employees.   If they are loyal enough they might stay long enough to become fluent in this exclusive language.  And d-elf merchants definitely shouldn't  have it.

[Matrim]

Also, from help_guild_merchant:

Usually descendants of the old Dune Traders, merchants quickly learn the ways of the desert, the most profitable trade routes, and possess a handy charm for making friends of even the most bitter templar.

I don't think the language should be removed from the merchant guild at all, and should definately not be added to a subclass.

[Marauder Moe]

I counter by arguing that the guild_merchant helpfile needs to be revised.  The Dune Traders were human, no?  Then how come non-humans can choose merchant as a guild and get Cavilish?

[Matrim]

I counter by arguing that the guild_merchant helpfile needs to be revised.  The Dune Traders were human, no?  Then how come non-humans can choose merchant as a guild and get Cavilish?

Yes, I think it would be a safe bet to say the Dune Traders were human, but the doc does say "usually decendants".  I don't have any facts to base this on, but I would think that most guild Merchants probably are human, whether virtually or not, and that most common "merchants" are not of the actual merchant guild.  There have also been some pretty good reasons in this thread as to why some non Dune Trader decendants might have access to the language, and while the family members of the Great Merchant Houses probably are direct decendants of the Dune Traders, I think they would probably be a minority of all the decendants.  

Anyways, I don't really care either way, if the imms feel the docs need updating i'm sure they'll do it.

[Intrepid]

I counter by arguing that the guild_merchant helpfile needs to be revised.  The Dune Traders were human, no?  Then how come non-humans can choose merchant as a guild and get Cavilish?

There's nothing saying that all dune traders had to be human unless an imm is willing
to clarify this.  A dune trader is, by definition, a simple merchant who traverses the
wastes and distributes much needed supplies across the desert.  Nothing in that
definition implies race unless we customize the definition to our purposes.  I'm not
saying yea or nay to the idea of limiting Cavilish, I'm just addressing this one point
in the conversation.

[Anarchy (not signed in)]

Consider Latian. About 50 years  ago doctors, phyisicans and vets from all walks of life had to learn Latian in order to become a medical physician. It was a connecting language that allowed ideas and methods to be shared between cultures and counties. A English doctor could go to Cina and speak with a doctor there, in latian.

Why cant it be the same with Cavilish? Why is it so hard to believe the possiblity that in such a small area (the known world is rather small) Cavilish has been chosen to be the language of trade across all races and city states?

*mutter* Bunch of militant, narrow minded gith *mutter*[/b]

[John]

Why cant it be the same with Cavilish? Why is it so hard to believe the possiblity that in such a small area (the known world is rather small) Cavilish has been chosen to be the language of trade across all races and city states?

It definitely can be. But until the docs are updated I'll continue to roleplay it as being rare.

[Marauder Moe]

Why cant it be the same with Cavilish? Why is it so hard to believe the possiblity that in such a small area (the known world is rather small) Cavilish has been chosen to be the language of trade across all races and city states?[/b]

It could be, but it isn't.

When people need to speak a common language they speak... *drumroll* common, aka Sirihish.

As I've stressed, I have no problem with Cavilish becoming a trade language.  As it is in-game currently and in the game documents, though, it isn't.  If it was, though, it would need to be added to a subguild.  There's no reason one would have to be a merchant, aka a crafter, to speak it.

[Sanvean]

My thinking is pretty much along the same lines as LoD's.  I'd prefer not to remove the skill from the guild.

[Marauder Moe]

My thinking is pretty much along the same lines as LoD's.  I'd prefer not to remove the skill from the guild.

So, how about a Cavilish subguild, then?

[John]

My thinking is pretty much along the same lines as LoD's.  I'd prefer not to remove the skill from the guild.

Is that how most of the staff feel? If so is it alright to send in updated helpfiles to clarify that Cavilish isn't something the Merchant Houses will have you killed for knowing?

[Delirium]

Having personally witnessed 'guild fishing' on multiple occasions, I would really like to see cavilish be put in a subguild if it isn't going to be taken out of the main guild.

Why?

This scene:

"I'd like to work as a crafter."
"Do you know cavilish?"

Bang-on tell if you're a guild_merchant or not, even if you try to creatively get out of it.  What's worse, if you say no, you're auto-magickally under suspicion for being a mage or a thiefy type.

Players should not be able to know if someone's going to be able to craft everything in the known world based on whether or not they can speak cavilish.  The best RPers won't take it IC, but it WILL end up influencing most people's actions and reactions to your character.

One of these days, I'm going to special app a defiler/merchant just to piss off those guild sniffers, but until then, a subguild would be very nice.

Cavilish, barter, and value.  Call it the 'merchant' subguild.

[Maybe42or54]

There is something even worse, that I've seen personally.

Joe Crafter comes up, says, "I'd like to work as a crafter."
Joe Merchant says, in an unknown language (to J.C.) called Cavilish, "Do you understand me?"
JC says, "Huh?"
Joe Merchant says, in sirihish, "I'm sorry, but I need to go. Let's meet later?"
J.M. gets up and leaves.


Since somehow, it is O.K. if you don't ask straight out.

[John]

"I'd like to work as a crafter."
"Do you know cavilish?"

Bang-on tell if you're a guild_merchant or not, even if you try to creatively get out of it.  What's worse, if you say no, you're auto-magickally under suspicion for being a mage or a thiefy type.

Since the "submit a request" tool has been put in, I routinely ask for my Cavilish skill to be put as low as possible (can't remove it or else it's impossible for you to ever learn it). So I would answer no to that question. So guild fishers beware, if you ask someone if they know cavilish and they say no, they're either not a merchant, or they're me  :twisted:

I recommend other players do so. Even if Cavilish is common among merchants, I'd say it's common among high-end merchants, not every single person who sells stuff.

[Sanvean]

Is that how most of the staff feel? If so is it alright to send in updated helpfiles to clarify that Cavilish isn't something the Merchant Houses will have you killed for knowing?

Yeah, I'm going to fling my weight around as merchant house admin and say yes on this.  Send them in and I'll get them in after I get back from traveling.

Joe Crafter comes up, says, "I'd like to work as a crafter."
Joe Merchant says, in an unknown language (to J.C.) called Cavilish, "Do you understand me?"
JC says, "Huh?"
Joe Merchant says, in sirihish, "I'm sorry, but I need to go. Let's meet later?"
J.M. gets up and leaves.

It's not okay, and if you see someone guild-fishing like this, feel free to drop a note to the account about it.

As far as the great Cavilish controversy goes, it reminds me of Bendune a while back, which the TM treated as their own secret language in much the same way --I think because at the time there wasn't any way for PCs to know Bendune short of listening to gypsies or wishing up about being a nomad and hoping to catch a staff member in a good mood.  That's shifted and it's available as a subguild language in order to open that up a bit.  Cavilish, though, is already available through a guild -- which to me says that merchant houses shouldn't be treating it as their own personal secret.  It's a trade tongue, which merchants pick up in order to communicate with other merchants.

[Delirium]

Okay, how about this.

Merchants get cavilish at a reduced level.

Merchant House Family always get perfect cavilish.

That way, someone could pick up cavilish, and though they suck at it, they would still be less suspicious to an unscrupulous guild-sniffing PC.


I really, really would like to see cavilish put in a subguild, but the above suggestion is a compromise.

[ale six]

I like that suggestion. I'd also like to see a cavilish subguild.

[spawnloser]

I still don't want to see it removed or changed...as it's not something that you should be killed for, isn't some super-sekrit code-language that only a select few know...it's the language of commerce.

[Maybe42or54]

Personally, I can't see why you can't put it in its own subguild.
Subguilds are groups of skills learned before you started playing, why can't someone learn Cavilish from their interaction with merchants before you start playing?

[Cale_Knight]

New Subguild:

Peddler.

The great merchant families were not the only dune traders to settle in the cities. With them came hundreds of smaller families, many of whom did not directly interfere or compete with them and have thrived, in their own ways, buying, selling, and trading in the shadow of the greater houses.

skills: haggle, value, cavilish.

[LoD]

Subguilds are groups of skills learned before you started playing...

This is true, but there are some skills that are not available through any of the subguild choices.  Backstab, disarm, trap, weapon skills, magick skills and parry are just a few.  They aren't included because it is assumed that there is more to learn regarding these skills than would be possible through a subguild.  I would consider Cavilish to be in this category because of its limited use in society and accessibility.

Nomads have bendune, but bendune is spoken between warriors, rangers, assassins, merchants, burglars, pick-pockets, etc...  It is attributed to a tribe of peoples, not to a given profession.  Thus, it would make sense that nomads be able to speak the tongue of their people -and- hold a regular profession.

The same can be said of elves and dwarves.  There are no stipulations on which professions can speak allundean or mirrukim.  Neither language is considered the "tongue of the warriors" or the "ranger's tongue".  They are universal between tribes, professions, social status, etc...

Cavilish is not this way.  It is neither as common nor necessary to a particular culture as is bendune, allundean, or mirukkim.   It is not spoken by every sect or group of a particular race or people -- but specific to a task that requires relationship buidling, consistent interaction, and an accompanying skillset favoring the work.

I see Cavilish as a merchant only language due to its sparse and industry specific use.

-LoD

[Marauder Moe]

Tell me then, LoD, what is 'merchanting'?

(edit: I'm not conceding that Cavilish is a trade language for merchants, I still firmly believe that it isn't, or at least that how it's used in-game and portrayed in the documents it isn't.  I'm just posing a hypothetical.)

[Maybe42or54]

Yes, but backstab/disarm/trap take a deal more effort to learn than a language does as proven by the linguist subguild. If another subguild is made for it then, who will be using it? People that want the cavilish language and possibly deal more with merchants. Why do merchants get it? If it is so hard to learn (like backstab/disarm/weapon skills), and unvital, only merchant houses should have it, since they are the only ones that really deal with merchants face to face a lot of the time. Indy merchants don't even deal with merchants the majority of the time.

Further more, the docs say that it is bendune with sirihish in it. So why can't a nomad, who could both, speak cavilish?

Cavilish isn't the language of commerce, it it the language developed between intergrated societies. City Cavilish is Badly spoken sirihish, and badly spoken Bendune. The Merchant Helpfile and the Cavilish Helpfile really cut each other off at the knees.

At once they began to adopt the languages of their customers, who spoke mostly Sirihish. Within their homes, however, they continued to use their native Bendune speech.

[Intrepid]

I hate to say this, but I really think Cavilish is fine the way it is.  I do believe that,
every once in a while, someone could develop it--in which case, you can ask the imms
for any skill that would rationally fit your pc in game--within reason.

[Marauder Moe]

Now you've done it!

Moe, you're forgetting that many elves have little to know knowledge of sirihish and seeing as how they're the second most populous race in the world, you'd need some way to communicate with them, right?

Yes.  You use Sirihish unless you're one of the few who bothered to learn Allundean.

Cavilish SHOULD be a trade language, but everyone either speaks Sirihish already or learns it VERY quickly from being around so many people already speaking it.  That's why Cavilish isn't used as a trade language but a secret language for speaking above the people that don't speak it (which is EXACTLY how it is used in practice by PCs).

Really, what I'm saying is that I believe you're wrong, Moe.  Cavilish is supposed to be a trade language, but simply isn't used that way.

Got any evidence?  Read the help files on it.  Cavilish is a cultural language.  

The legendary dune traders of ages past, once travelling merchants of nomadic heritage who spoke Bendune, settled in the city-states at Gol Krathu and Vrun Driath somewhere in the neighborhood of one thousand years after the Dragon's departure from the Known World. At once they began to adopt the languages of their customers, who spoke mostly Sirihish.  Within their homes, however, they continued to use their native Bendune speech. With the passage of generations, the younger family members, eager to assimilate more fully into the culture of the city-states, made increasingly larger use of Sirihan language structures. And, as time wore on, their native Bendune became so changed that it was categorized by scholars as its own language.

(from http://www.armageddon.org/general/language.html#cavilish )

Like it says, within their homes, not for trading with foreigners or business tradition or anything.  The reason Cavilish isn't a trading language is an IC one, not OOC.

I have to agree with spawn.  At least the last I knew (it's been awhile since I've played a merchant) Merchants get Cavavlish for a reason.  Back in the day it was also used to "guild sniff" if you will.  It was the language of desert traders.

Theres a big difference between the language of desert traders and a language of desert trading.

[spawnloser]

You're saying that since they spoke Bendune within their homes, that Cavilish (a different language that evolved from Bendune) can't be a trade language?

[psionic fungus]

The reason Cavilish isn't a trading language is an IC one, not OOC.

It's a trade tongue, which merchants pick up in order to communicate with other merchants.

You say it "isn't a trading language", THE (wo)MAN says that "it's a trade tongue".

Just thought I'd point that out.

[flurry]

There's another related thread here.   Tlaloc's post in particular is definitely worth reading.

[Marauder Moe]

Well then I think the immortals are wrong.  Wouldn't be the first time.   :wink:

[spawnloser]

In practice, you're right, Moe, it's not a trade language.  It's a secret society language.

By documentation and staff interpretation of that documentation, it is a trade language.  It has nothing to do with being right or wrong.  They are the ones that write the documentation that the game operates based on.  Are you going to say that they're wrong and that Muk Utep can't really see the future?  Maybe he's just really lucky?  In a case like this, they can't be wrong.  You can choose to be stubborn, though.

[Marauder Moe]

I disagree that the documentation says it's a trade language, and as you said, it's not a trade language as people have been playing it.  It does seem that at least some of the staff interpret it to be one, though.  If they wish to acknowledge that neither the game nor documentation is consistant with that interpretation and they change things, fine.  Though even then I'd question why Zalanthas needs a trade language besides Sirihish.

I don't have to agree with a decision to respect it, though.  I wouldn't go around in character and scold people for conducting trades in Cavilish or anything like that.

Really, it doesn't matter since the game is ending.  It's not worth it now to make a Cavilish subguild like I suggested earlier in this thread.  I don't really care that much, I mostly wanted to steer the Cavilish subject off of my Arm Reborn languages thread.

[spawnloser]

I'd say the documentation is not explicit enough. It suggests that Cavilish is a trade language, but it also definitely doesn't say that Cavilish is not a trade one.

Why does Zalanthas need a trade language?

First, as Tlaloc said in the post flurry linked to, it's a clique thing. Sure, anyone _could_ go trade, but they're not going to get the respect from 'real merchants' if they can't speak in Cavilish. It's like being a biologist that doesn't know the latin names for any species.

Second, it crosses the language barriers that do exist. Elven merchants that don't speak Sirihish can still do trade in Cavilish with people that don't speak Allundean. In the current version of Arm, it's too easy for everyone to learn Sirihish, so everyone knows it and thus it has become, for PCs, the language to do trade with when there are any other language barriers.

[Impska]

Knowing cavilish earns you respect in the "merchant" clique and legitimizes you as a 'real' merchant. People who don't know cavilish aren't taken as seriously by other merchants. Since you don't know cavilish, one assumes you don't have a family history of merchanting and thus probably don't know all the tricks of the trade and are more easily taken advantage of.

Furthermore, cavilish as a language is used by non-sirihish speaking tribes and races to do business across language barriers. Making the effort to pass down the language within a small group of specialists in, say, the Blackwing elf tribe, allows them to conduct trade in a sophisticated manner without forcing them to speak a 'human' or 'city' tongue.

A merchant who knows cavilish not only proves him/herself legitimate to other merchants of his or her own race, but also to those of other races.

If a merchant house refuses to teach or speak spoken cavilish to non-merchants, it's just another way for them to be elitist. They aren't delusional in some way - they understand other people may learn and speak cavilish, they are just better than those people. If merchant house documentation states that speaking cavilish will earn you death, then it's outdated and somewhat ridiculous.

Merchant houses have written Cavilish almost exclusively (even nobles need to provide justification for having it added to their skill list). Very few non-family merchants have learned it. Being a literate merchant outside of a main House (with the exception of being noble) is probably justification for getting the old knife in the back.

So for those who think merchant houses need a super seekrit language: you're in luck. They have one. They can write little notes to eachother. Once upon a time, written Cavilish was basically supposed to be a numerical language, for record keeping, but in latter days staff have encouraged their family members to keep journals and write letters to eachother.  And why not? It's more interesting that way and it offers up a way to pass down some fantasic player-written in-character history.

As for spoken cavilish - it doesn't need to be exclusive. It hasn't been for the past ten years, and now the game is closing - so who cares? People have been sniffing out the merchant class all this time and it somehow hasn't affected the integrity of the roleplay here.

[Coat of Arms]

Didn't read the whole thread, but here's my take on it:

I've never found Cavilish to be a real part of merchanting. An employer in a merchant house might ask you if you speak it when they interview you, but it never seemed to be a deciding factor to me. I certainly never got rejected from a job because I couldn't speak the language. That's probably because the playerbase does not properly reflect how coveted these Kadius/Salarr/Kurac jobs are and they end up taking anyone who wants to join.

I never see merchants use Cavilish as an important part of their job. 90% of the customers don't speak it and they don't have that many fellow merchants to bicker with. I had a merchant character who never used the language a single time because there was never a situation that called for it. Humans speak to eachother in Sirihish, and if there's ever something you don't want everybody at the bar to hear, you use the much more convenient Way.

Then, whenever I do see someone use Cavilish, it's treated as a full-fledged language that developed the same way Sirihish and Allundean and whatnot. If this is a merchant's tongue, invented and used only by merchants and for merchanting purposes, would it even have the vocabulary required for global conversation of all topics? Could you discuss a game of izdari, plot an assassination, write a flowery poem or chit-chat about the weather in a language whose sole purpose is to discuss things related to trade?

[enigma]

That's probably because the playerbase does not properly reflect how coveted these Kadius/Salarr/Kurac jobs are and they end up taking anyone who wants to join.

The first part of this statement is true, the second part is not.

Then, whenever I do see someone use Cavilish, it's treated as a full-fledged language that developed the same way Sirihish and Allundean and whatnot. If this is a merchant's tongue, invented and used only by merchants and for merchanting purposes, would it even have the vocabulary required for global conversation of all topics? Could you discuss a game of izdari, plot an assassination, write a flowery poem or chit-chat about the weather in a language whose sole purpose is to discuss things related to trade?

Cavilish has been around for so long, why wouldn't it have developed past trade vocabulary only?  Every language expands as it gets older.  Just look at the English language.

[LoD]

Didn't read the whole thread, but here's my take on it:

You should read the thread.  Much has been discussed on the subject with particular attention to the origins and shaping of the Cavilish language.  It isn't a garbled half-tongue like mercenary short-hand, it's a blend of Bendune and Sirihish that developed amidst the dune traders' families.

As I mentioned in one of these earlier posts:

I don't see the language so much secretive as cultural.

I believe they choose not to speak it widely because it's reserved for the company of fellow merchants rather than secret partners. And it wouldn't just be the language, it would be a combination of things.

For example, let's say that horticulturists spoke Horta. Two of them are in a tavern speaking Horta with each other, not because they want to be secret, but because that's the culture between them.  It just happens to ALSO protect their conversation somewhat from those who don't have any business listening.

Now let's say a 'rinthi has been listening to them for months and can finally piece together some of the words. One day he starts trying to join the conversation. It would probably become quickly apparent that this person did not learn Horta as a result of their culture or profession, but as a result of listening to them because they wouldn't have the other knowledge necessary to carry on the conversation. One question about which plant can be found far to the west, perfers shade, and has a minty smell and they'll see this person is a fraud.

The language is considered secretive to those that are not part of the cutlure, and likely commonplace to the people who are.  Some folks interpret having this language as being granted a "power" or "ability" that should not be shared, so as to make them feel special or unique, but I really don't think that's the case. The fact that most non-merchants wouldn't be able to understand their business conversations is more likely a beneficial byproduct than an engineered tool.

-LoD