Why do only rangers get to quit in wilderness?

[Marauder Moe]

Here's my take on it: rangers can survive in the wilderness indefinately.  Therefore, it makes sense that rangers could survive indefinitely in the wilderness in a virtual state (quitting).  The other guilds cannot.

[spawnloser]

Quitting (an OOC action) is being influenced by in game situations (IC restrictions), not the other way around, fightclub.  If it was an OOC affecting IC, yes, this would be bad...but this situation is IC affecting the OOC.  If your character doesn't go outside (IC action) then you can quit much easier (OOC problem).

[Hymwen]

I agree, a 10 minute delay or soemthing for iother classes wouldn't be too bad - but that would amke every fucking merchant be able to survive whereever? Bleh. warriors are for fighting, not to stay outside forever

Quitting in wilderness (edit: for non-rangers) should, of course, be emergency behavior. But FightClub is not the first, and will not be the last person who due to an unlucky sandstorm or something similar, ends up spending too long in the wilderness and at some point has to log out due to OOC things. Since there are coded environmental effects (read: sandstorms or darkness) that prevent you from doing basically anything for quite lengthy periods of time, there should IMO be a way to leave the game if you must. They could implement a wish-like command where you state your reason for quitting in the desert if you're not a ranger, like "quitmsg Sorry, I have to go, my house is on fire, so I quit in the desert even though I'm a merchant", and have consequences for people who abuse this and quit without giving a reason. Players in this game have a responsibility that goes beyond the coded rules, and we should trust players not to do something unrealistic outside of an emergency, but as I said before, I consider it nearly a breach of human rights to force someone to stay in the game or face dire consequences if they choose to let their chracter idle/linkdead somewhere for completely OOC reasons.

Possibly allow non-rangers only a certain amount of "wilderness quits" per RL day/week.

[Marauder Moe]

When we're talking about quitting, it's an ooc thing right?  

Wrong.

Your character is ICly going on with his life.  While you're not logged in, your character ICly goes about doing things.  He eats, he drinks, he sleeps, he does work for his clan, maybe he earns virtual money and spends it on virtual ale and whores.  When rangers quit, they hunt and forage for food and water.  Other classes don't know how to do that, so it doesn't make sense for them to enter this virtual mode out in the wilderness.

[FightClub]

When we're talking about quitting, it's an ooc thing right?  

Wrong.

Your character is ICly going on with his life.  While you're not logged in, your character ICly goes about doing things.  He eats, he drinks, he sleeps, he does work for his clan, maybe he earns virtual money and spends it on virtual ale and whores.  When rangers quit, they hunt and forage for food and water.  Other classes don't know how to do that, so it doesn't make sense for them to enter this virtual mode out in the wilderness.

Then why isn't my character icly walking back to his village while I'm linkdead?

[marko]

I've played many characters in the wilderness that aren't rangers.

To address the "must go" situation - this situation exists in cities as well and people need to get to a quit-safe location or drop link.  Personally, when I play in the wilderness I tend to stay near my character's home (ie, quit area).  Therefore, if something does come up, then I just scurry home (aka, head to a tavern) and quit out.

If, for some reason, my character was traveling to some other location and something comes up - I drop link and take my chances.

Now, why do rangers get quit anywhere and no one else?  I think people are starting to hit this one on the nose.  Survival in the wastes is a specialized ability that takes a lifetime to achieve.  A warrior can fight off the nasties but will still fall prone to the traps of the wastes.  A ranger's quit anywhere ability reflects this survivability trait.

I, personally, would not like to see any other class than ranger get quit anywhere.  I feel that limiting this ability keeps the ranger class what it should be and encourages people to gather around the quit-safe locations that exist throughout the known world.  

The wilds are dangerous to be in and if everyone could quit anywhere I think this danger would be reduced significantly.

Is this an OOC thing?  I'm not convinced that it is.  We can't quit anywhere inside a city so I'm not sure why we should be able to outside a city.  In cities our characters quit out in locations that they can live / sleep in.  In the wilderness it is the same way.

[Hymwen]

Is this an OOC thing? I'm not convinced that it is. We can't quit anywhere inside a city so I'm not sure why we should be able to outside a city. In cities our characters quit out in locations that they can live / sleep in. In the wilderness it is the same way.

Now, why do rangers get quit anywhere and no one else? I think people are starting to hit this one on the nose. Survival in the wastes is a specialized ability that takes a lifetime to achieve. A warrior can fight off the nasties but will still fall prone to the traps of the wastes. A ranger's quit anywhere ability reflects this survivability trait.

Yes, but in a city, you should be able to find a place to quit in a matter of minutes. My (and probably FightClub's) point is that people should, in an emergency, be allowed to leave the game when they absolutely have to. Not play their merchant like they're a ranger, not pretend that they can survive in the wilds, but for the same reasons that we can OOCly correct people that make huge mistakes that impact the game world around them, or wish up to be let out of a locked apartment that we lost link in last night, because sometimes something unforeseen happens that it wouldn't be fair to lose a character to, or something similar.

[bloodfromstone]

Since there are coded environmental effects (read: sandstorms or darkness) that prevent you from doing basically anything for quite lengthy periods of time, there should IMO be a way to leave the game if you must.

I agree, actually. I love rangers to death, and I like that they can do some wicked rad stuff that no other classes can do. But storms can be unceasing at times, and, due to the way storm/darkness code works, someone can become stuck in one room for RL hours. It would be nice if there was something out there to help poor suckers who get trapped, thinking they have a good hour left before they have to go to bed/work or whatever. Someone once suggested making it coded so there was always a break in the storms, 1 day for every 2 storming ones, after which it would go back to being hell if it so chose. That'd be pretty nice, though it might make rangers less of a commodity for travel. Having one or two emergency wilderness quits for non-rangers would be nice, too.

Personally, however, I like the camp idea the best. It could take time to set up, during which it could be interupted by being mauled by an animal or attacked by a PC. Also, it could do some damage to a non-ranger's equipment, as well, just to round things off a bit and remind people that living out in the wilderness is harsh for those who don't know what they're doing. I think people would be hesitant to over-use a camp command if they came back to having all of their equipment at 'used' and having to deal with getting it repaired, but the option would still be there for someone who was horribly stranded and unable to get immortal assistance.

[rishenko]

I agree with marko.  I would also like to add that if you think about it, quit issues should really make a merchant or warrior WANT to take a ranger out with them - somebody who knows where the camp sites are or can lead people back to safety when weather or whatever else have you gets bad.

The lack of external quit sites should also force non ranger guilds to stay close to their beloved cities or camps because they simply are not suited for dealing with the wastes like a ranger is.

As for tribals living in the wastes - notice the tribals have camps that most of the people, including their guards, live in?  It's the rangers that are sent out to guide hunters to the big prey, and bring the party home safe.

It's a team effort.

[Marauder Moe]

When we're talking about quitting, it's an ooc thing right?  

Wrong.

Your character is ICly going on with his life.  While you're not logged in, your character ICly goes about doing things.  He eats, he drinks, he sleeps, he does work for his clan, maybe he earns virtual money and spends it on virtual ale and whores.  When rangers quit, they hunt and forage for food and water.  Other classes don't know how to do that, so it doesn't make sense for them to enter this virtual mode out in the wilderness.

Then why isn't my character icly walking back to his village while I'm linkdead?

Because traveling isn't a casual activity that you do every day... unless you're a ranger.

[Pale Horse]

If I remember right, this topic has sprung up before (..really..what topic hasn't?) and the conclusion that everyone seemed to agree with most was to either add the wilderness-quit ability to the nomad sub-guild, or add it to the D-elves as a race, and create a human-tribal racial option that has the ability as well.

I might be remembering this wrong, and I'm too lazy to go back through the archives to look for the original post.

And since we don't see either of these innovations currently in the game, you can make a pretty accurate guess as to what the Imms think of this whole topic.

[WarriorPoet]

I skimmed the thread, but didn't read in detail. Sorry if my points have been made or remade, but I'm just going to throw out my own thoughts on the whole deal.

I prefer ranger-quit to stay a ranger-only skill. If you're a merchant or pickpocket, you probably shouldn't be running wild in the Red Desert. If you feel you absolutely -must- go forage for salt/rocks in an unfamiliar place: HIRE A RANGER.

Now that the inevitable comment is out of the way, I'll elaborate. If your guide is worth his salt, he's going to know the area he's taking you through. This means that he ought to know: Dangers in the area, possible water and food sources, landmarks, known animal threats, and, above all, places to run to if shit gets too hot. If your ranger guide knows the zone your in, a minor-emergency log-out shouldn't take more than a few extra minutes and, if it's not an emergency, then it's your own fault for being stuck out in BFE with no place to quit.

You know when you have to go to work. You know when it's time to sleep. You know when your wife/husband is making supper, and you know when it's time for Church. Make arrangements. If nothing else, do a quick OOC before you start, saying 'OOC: Sorry to break scene, but I'm going to have to log out for Church in about forty-five minutes, no matter what... If getting me to a quit-room in is going to be a problem, I'll just stay in the city..." RL omes first, and I seriously doubt anyone is going to mind if you take 1 moment OOC to eliminate the hassle, later on.

Now, if you have a true emergency, like your house on fire or your child impaled in the front yard, you shouldn't be worried about quitting anyway.

Leave ranger quit alone. For non-rangers: Hire a guide. There are plenty around, and I'll bet there is one just waiting to lead you into a nightmare, quit-safe, of course.

-WP

[jhunter]

If you are having troubles getting to a quit safe room with your non-ranger pc in the wilds, perhaps you should rethink your pc being that far out without a ranger along?

If you aren't a ranger, you aren't as adept at surviving, travelling or just all around dealing with being in the wilds as a ranger.

My (and probably FightClub's) point is that people should, in an emergency, be allowed to leave the game when they absolutely have to.

And you can. If you absolutely have to you can drop link and take your chances. If you can't get to a quit room then you shouldn't be out there with your pc.
It's your own problem for putting your pc into that situation. You -know- that your pc can't quit out anywhere in the wilds, so why'd you take them somewhere that they couldn't deal with anyway? ICly your pc would know that they aren't adept at surviving in the wilds, why would they go too far away from some sort of shelter when travelling?

It's like saying: "There's a situation that I put my warrior into and right now he needs to be able to <insert another guild's specialty here>, it's not fair!! This is a problem with the game and needs to be fixed!!!"

It makes sense the way it is and I don't see any change as necessary. Rangers aren't "twinked" either. They get alot of decent skills, but they are all mostly focused in one area: surviving in the wilds.
No different from the warrior and their mastery of combat, the pick-pocket and their mastery of theft, the merchant and their mastery of crafting/bartering. That's just the way it works.

[Vesperas]

In reply to all the "emergency" complaints:


Anyone ever heard of wish?  Or 'objective' (thin hope for if you've already gone, but oh well)?  O.o

Also, I've always been under the impression that when you drop link, the timers stop.  So you really shouldn't starve/thirst to death?

[jmordetsky]

A warrior can fight off the nasties but will still fall prone to the traps of the wastes.  A ranger's quit anywhere ability reflects this survivability trait.

Agreed, but still. It's so unplayable sometimes. I had a stormer who was a merchant guild and professional sifter. One day, I accidently spam keyed an extra n and ended up in one of Red Storm "bad moods".

I was litterally logged in for an entire day, I had to keep a terminal open and check that some Silt Horror hadn't molested me with one of it's tentacles every 5 minutes or so for fear of losing my beloved character.

I really dislike the ranger quit anywhere skill, but no one else can. It's up there with saturday downtime (which hopefully is gone!!!! YES!)

I would really like to see all guilds able to quit in the desert, but with a 1/2 reduction in health, stamina, and stun and hunger and thirst levels upped . So if you do, it reflects your inability to survive out in the desert.

So, if Joe Warrior quits out:

70/80 40/80 80/80> quit
You are in the wilderness, quitting here will have a strong physical effect on your character. Are you sure you want to quit? [y/n]

70/80 80/80 80/80> Y
Survial in the harsh desert causes you to suffer.

35/80 40/80 40/80>

Come Back Soon!


This would make the game SO much more playable for non-rangers. When I hear people answer newer players that fustrated with this with "deal with it only rangers can survive in the desert" it irritates me so much.

[jmordetsky]

Also, I've always been under the impression that when you drop link, the timers stop.  So you really shouldn't starve/thirst to death?

After a time I think. And that still doesn't protect you from roving baddies. Or angry n00bs.

[amoeba]

Also an emergency should be just that, an emergency. Not a common place thing.

In regards to getting stuck in the wilds and you end up having to go back to work or whatever, You should take into account, -before you start-, the amount of time you can spend IG.   If there is an RPT you don't get into it knowing you have to go back to work in 30 minuites.  I know even when I have a ranger, I don't get into any potentially bad situations on my lunch hour.  I may log in, craft a bit, talk in a tavern, but I don't go exploring the canyons, -even though I could quit at any time-.   A little forethought goes a long way.

If you do try to plan ahead, go out and get caught in the elements, then something happens where you need to quit you have a couple of choices.  One, wish up for help. The IMMs are reasonable with resonable requests.  Two, as was stated before by others, drop link.  The timers stop, but hey, you could get eaten while you were away, but hell...you are not a ranger, trained and experienced in wilderness survival, what do you expect?

[Nao]

Then why isn't my character icly walking back to his village while I'm linkdead?

Cause he's all exhausted cause you used up the movement?

If you've still got the movement to get back somewhere safe - use them and walk back, it only takes a few minutes.
You -know- that you'll have to go to work or school or lunch or whatever soon, so you could do a bit of planning and manage to get back in time. If you don't have the movement to get back, then it doesn't really matter whether you have to leave or not - your character would be stuck outside either way - when you're down to half your movement without shelter in sight, that should be a signal for you to turn around and walk back to where you came from, unless you -know- you've got the time for resting.

If it's an absolute emergency that comes up when you thought you had the time, just wish up about being logged out, the imms are pretty good about that.

[jmordetsky]

Also an emergency should be just that, an emergency. Not a common place thing.

In regards to getting stuck in the wilds and you end up having to go back to work or whatever, You should take into account, -before you start-, the amount of time you can spend IG.   If there is an RPT you don't get into it knowing you have to go back to work in 30 minuites.  I know even when I have a ranger, I don't get into any potentially bad situations on my lunch hour.  I may log in, craft a bit, talk in a tavern, but I don't go exploring the canyons, -even though I could quit at any time-.   A little forethought goes a long way.

If you do try to plan ahead, go out and get caught in the elements, then something happens where you need to quit you have a couple of choices.  One, wish up for help. The IMMs are reasonable with resonable requests.  Two, as was stated before by others, drop link.  The timers stop, but hey, you could get eaten while you were away, but hell...you are not a ranger, trained and experienced in wilderness survival, what do you expect?

See, thats so inaccurate. You never know how long RPTs take.

You think you do, but you don't. Everyone has been on that RPT Byn mission that is supposed to be and hour and 30 minutes and ALWAYS starts 40 minutes late, and ends at 5am instead of 12.

Thats not even taking into account getting caught in a storm, someone getting ganked by a spider and needing to sleep it off etc. The fact is, Arm takes a LONG time to play. And you get stuck, sometime in the middle of a conversation, sometime on a wagon to tuluk, and yes, sometimes in a storm.

I just don't get how people are os adament about this. It drives me up the wall. This is the only game I've ever played where I've said to myself "Fuck, I have to get out of here and go pick my brother up at the train station, how the hell do I get to a quit spot."

I bothers me so much, knowing that draining a sizable amount of health off would accurately reflect the same thing and allow me to go one with my life.

Maddness. I feel the pain.

[amoeba]

See, thats so inaccurate. You never know how long RPTs take.

You think you do, but you don't. Everyone has been on that RPT Byn mission that is supposed to be and hour and 30 minutes and ALWAYS starts 40 minutes late, and ends at 5am instead of 12.

No, you don't.  That is why you don't go into potentialy or known lengthy situations when you don't have the time to play it out.  Would you start participating in an RPT when you know you have to pick up your brother in an hour?

My point here is people go, I'll just run down to Luirs, I "know" it only takes 10 Min., I have a half-hour, I should be fine.  Boom, stuff happens along the way.  A little forethought goes a long way.  You should take into account the possiblity of "getting caught in a storm, someone getting ganked by a spider and needing to sleep it off etc."

This is not just about quiting in the wilds.  You wouldn't start that negotiation with the templar of doom, then in the middle ooc stating you have to go to work.  At least I hope not.

I just don't get how people are os adament about this. It drives me up the wall.

The converse is true as well as you seem quite adament of your viewpoint. Non ranger, wild oriented characters are trickier to play, but that is some of the appeal at well.  

I bothers me so much, knowing that draining a sizable amount of health off would accurately reflect the same thing

I do not agree with this statement.

[jhunter]

I just don't get how people are os adament about this. It drives me up the wall.

Because alot of us have dealt with it the way it is and it has become something that can be easily worked around. If you aren't a ranger, don't take yourself too far away from a quit safe room. If you might have limited time to play, don't get yourself involved in anything that could potentially take a while.
It really is just that simple.


Amoeba hit alot of my thoughts on it all pretty well.

[jmordetsky]

I bothers me so much, knowing that draining a sizable amount of health off would accurately reflect the same thing

I do not agree with this statement.

I am jmordetsky incredible sense curiousity. Why don't you agree with it?

Lets take the "you should have planned better" mindset out of it, I see what you are getting at, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, because....well...I just don't agree. But that's okay, we've agreed on other stuff.

The remaining questions I have is:

In the event that there is an emergency of some kind, and I end up having to go link dead in the wilderness. Why is it better for me to be linkdead for the duration of my emergency, then it is for me to quit out with a significant penalty to my characters well being?

Lets assume the code is easy. Which is a big assumption, but theoretically if Hal or Gax said tomorrow, dude I can code this in a minute, what would be your continued opposition?

EDIT:
I just realized I should probably give my oppinion since I asked for yours....

The reason I like the an allowed quit with a signficant penalty is because it allows me to slip away from the computer with peace of mind if I need to, while discouraging the action because when I log in again, I'm going to be severely fucked. The otherside of this, doesn't really allow me to leave at all. If I do really need to go out, I have to pray either an Imm is on and isn't too busy. (for people in the euro timezone or people like me that sometimes only play at 2am pst, this is a pain), find a remote spot to drop link or just drop link in the storm i'm in and pray that I don't become silt horror bait.

For me, linkdead is like 50/50. There is a 50% chance that I come back with 0 penalty, or a 50% chance that I'm dead when I get back. With a penalty, I know I'm not going to die while I'm away, but I'm rolling the dice on my own time (rather then linkdead time) because my health and stam have been diminished by so much, which is what would happen if I dropped you out in the wilds. If a bear came along you would sit there link dead for him to eat you. You'd run.

I feel this better reflects the "virtual" life of your character. Virtually, I'm getting fucked up trying to survice in the desert, rather then sitting there with a "scrab bait" sign tattoed on my forehead.

As stated, if you have a real emmergency, you sholdn't care about a piece of code. *shrugs*

[HunterKiller]

I have to be very practical about quitting out because I have a child who doesn't appreciate the finer art of Arm.  :-)  I can't go into a wilderness area at all when I can't commit to 45 minutes (at least) to playing.  more often than not I decide it's not worth it and won't log in.

Why not put some strategically located quit rooms here and there along the map?  It could be a group of tribal humans or just a mis-match of various bands who've gotten together and made a sleeping area (for a fee of course) for travelers going to and from.  This seems like an excellent opportunity to utilize the iso clans for some of this.  It would also help consolidate desert wanderers, providing a place to meet.

Just a thought.

- HK

[Xygax]

If you have an RL emergency, wish up.  It's not hard for us to boot you out of the game safely (for your character, ICly), and we're usually receptive to this sort of thing if it's an emergency and you've asked nicely.

Otherwise, if you don't or can't plan your time well: play a ranger PC, or avoid wandering into the desert.

-- X