I Get no Respect!

[Synthesis]

(To avoid derailing the newbie thread.)

If I were raised my entire life thinking I was better than everyone else, and especially better than people from another city-state, I'd be pretty pissed off if a commoner from that place even had the audacity to bid against me for something I wanted.

And if I was a 'nakki noble, I wouldn't be all "subtle" about it and go out of my way to construct a post hoc rationalization for my lack of action.  I would send a servant over and tell that person to stop bidding, or else.

If I were a wealthy commoner from another city-state, bidding against a noble in his own city-state, I would immediately cease bidding and send someone over to apologize, to save my own ass.

Personally, I don't think people respect and fear nobles enough these days, probably because the turnover rate is so high (especially in Allanak).  These are people with enough 'sid to bury you alive in, with at least a small contingent of loyal, die-hard troops at their beck and call, and enough spare time to harbor the sort of grudges that get people skinned, magickally kept alive, and exposed to the sandstorm outside before they finally allow you to perish.

If you're a commoner, and you're sitting there snickering because you just one-upped a noble in his own city-state, you're wrong--and you ought to be dead wrong.

Now, as far as nobles sparring commoners goes...who cares?  We're based somewhat on Dune, right?  Well...who was teaching Paul Atreides how to fight?  It wasn't another noble, that's for sure.  Hell, even his mother, teaching him the Weirding Way, wasn't a noble...she was a valued concubine.  

Obviously you're not going to be sparring Joe Nobody, the recently hired guardsman, but sparring a trusted senior man is certainly not out of the question.  I'm fairly sure, in all their years of education, most nobles have realized that they were not born with the gift of mastery of hand-to-hand combat, and that if they desire to master it, they'd better find someone who already has and can teach them.

To put it another way, noble family members cannot be the -only- people who are literate in their Houses.  Do you honestly think noble parents sit around and painstakingly teach their noble children how to read and write?  I seriously doubt it.  It's much more likely that there are certain very trusted literate slaves whose job is to keep records and teach the youngsters how to do it.  Now, if you will allow your children to learn something as important as how to read and write from a slave...why wouldn't you learn something as mundane as swordplay from a trusted employee of your House?  

Saying that sparring leaves you open to assassination is simply taking the code literally and disregarding the meta-reality of the gameworld, and personally, I'd consider anyone who assassinated a noble after their hitpoints were lowered during sparring to be a severe twink.  Just because you've lost X amount of hitpoints does -not- mean you're actually damaged, bleeding, or anything else of the sort.  You may be a little tired and sweaty after sparring, but you're certainly not going to be near-dead and thus an easy mark.

And as far as appearing "beneath" them is concerned, I think that's just a bunch of malarkey, quite frankly.  Everyone knows who's the boss in a noble House, nobody better than the boss himself.  I seriously doubt any noble would suffer wounded pride knowing that his guard captain can best him in a duel.  If that were the case, we'd have nobles fighting duels in the Arena in a constant attempt to prove themselves better than commoners at everything, including bloodsport.  That's just silly.  Nobles know perfectly well that their guardsmen can probably best them in a duel--otherwise there'd be little need to keep the fellows around in the first place.  To conclude that a nobleman would become indignant at being bested in combat by a man he -knows- is better than himself at fighting (after the nobleman himself initiated the exchange!) pushes the bounds of credulity.

[Marauder Moe]

*thumbs up*

I agree for the most part.  The sparring noble stuff would apply fine to House Tor (and the virtual House Lyksae).  Templars might be a different issue, though.  I could see Templar School in both the north and south being taught entirely by highborn.  The idea that a templar could be bested by a commoner in any fashion seems dangerous.

[Hymwen]

Good, and very long, point.

[Naiona]

The nobility of House Borsail does not trouble themselves with physical exertion of any kind, especially swordplay.  They have people for that.  Oash is much the same.

[Synthesis]

Sure, I'm just saying that, given the desire to become proficient at swordplay, a noble isn't going to lose any sleep over the fact that he's can't immediately best his master-at-arms.

[Anonymous]

Good post. Put "slaves" as a substitute for "commoners" when talking about tutors and instructors and I will call it excellent.

[Tamarin]

Quite frankly, Synthesis...

A noble should not get to win against a commoner in an auction just because he is a noble.  ESPECIALLY if he is from an opposing city state.  If he didn't bring the coin enough for the object in question, that's his own problem.  Any noble should theoretically have enough coin to heavily overbid, just to flex his economic muscles and show just why he is a noble, and why the commoner isn't.  THAT is how you show you're a noble, in my opinion.  Not by simply being there, and being high and mighty over a bunch of people who loathe you and don't respect you (speaking specifically of commoners from other city states).

[edited to add] ..in his own city state...yeah.  I'd be careful about that.  But in neutral territory, everything is fair game.  *nod*

[marko]

And if I was a 'nakki noble, I wouldn't be all "subtle" about it and go out of my way to construct a post hoc rationalization for my lack of action.  I would send a servant over and tell that person to stop bidding, or else.

I agree with this and the reaction of the Noble.  A lot of times the problem is twofold - the first is a lack of understanding from the player's view that nobles are, without question, better than their commoner character and second that nobles allow commoners to act in this manner.  I rarely see Nobles taking action against slights that commoners do to them.  

Any wealthy commoner would do well to think twice about outbidding a noble of their own citystate in a public auction where the bids are known.  The consequences of doing such a thing will likely mean political sanctions against said commoner.  The question becomes is a single item worth the potential loss of future promotions and / or the direct animosity of the Noble and their House against the commoner and / or their  own House.

A wealthy commoner from a different Citystate may do it just for fun - but if said commoner is a part of a Merchant House then they would be wise to follow the rules of engagement as being from the same Citystate.

Sparring:

Attitudes towards sparring are different from House to House.  Some Houses feel that sparring with a commoner is a taint.  Others simply feel it is below them.  In some Houses it may be that it is allowed to train with the officers of the House Guard.

[Aldiel]

I really enjoyed this post, Synthesis.  All your points are right on.  You might also say a noble working with his captain being something like a noble working with his coach.  No one is going to say, oh, the coach can beat the noble so he's better.

[Socko]

For most nobles, working with and learning from a slave is preferable to even touching a commoner.

At least you know where the slaves are coming from-- and they're trusted machines. Commoners have free will, are born like feral dogs in a junkyard, and are much less valuable-- they're a 'sid a dozen.

Veteran Commoner Employees are akin to slaves in some ways; they more than likely have some ties of loyalty, and are being paid a decent wage. They've crawled up to an acceptable level-- they're still a little dirty, but at least you know and can trust in their abilities. They're reliable tools and can be treated well-- just as well as some slaves.

[ale six]

In his own citystate, I can't imagine many cases where a noble would even be attending an auction with commoners of the opposite city. Possibly if those commoners were merchant family member representatives, but then it's arguable they aren't really foreign commoners. Otherwise, I can't imagine any instance inside Allanak where a noble would be attending an auction with Joe Tuluk -- unless the auction was to see who gets to buy Joe and throw him in the arena. Likewise for Tuluk.

I think this debate may have arisen from certain recent events, though. In a neutral setting where people of both citystates are on the same level and bidding in an auction, things are different.

About nobles and sparring -- it's made pretty clear in the documents that most of them don't. For one thing, most of them have absolutely no need to. But in the other post, what Jherlen said about nobles not sparring commoners came almost right out of the documents... I went and found it here. http://www.armageddon.org/general/social_mores.html#A%20Note%20on%20Sparring

Beyond that, I think some good points were made about just how powerful nobles are and why angering them isn't a great idea.

[Armaddict]

In regards to nobles sparring commoners:

Most nobles, while trained, are -not- expert swordsmen.  Saying that they must be taught by -someone- is completely accurate.  But that someone is not every single house employee just because you're a noble and you want to spar.

No sparring commoners is a pretty consistent guideline.  There are occasions where it doesn't completely apply, but it's always there.  If this guideline were to be ignored, I almost guarantee sparring between nobility and commoners would become almost common.  Why is this bad, in my opinion?

 In the 'meta-reality' of arm, nobles hold an esteemed position, very noticeably above their commoner counterparts.  When they pick up a sparring weapon, they are they giving this commoner the chance to perhaps bruise them, scar them, or otherwise somehow injure them.  While not necessarily serious, is someone that high above those people going to risk it for the sake of learning a thing or two with a sword?  They -do- have the money and power for guards, and more important things to do with their time.

 There's a symbolism going on, as well.  How would the commoner/noble distinction be if nobles were out picking up all these commoners and new recruits to train them?  All of a sudden, the 'superiority' of nobles is disproved with frequency, at least in the sparring ring.  

Edited to add here, since I forgot: There is also something to be said when this highly educated, powerful, and all around superior being decides to start using commoners constantly to improve himself.  He improves himself.  Nobles improve him.  Commoners do -not- improve the noble, they improve their status by working for them.

 Most nobility don't even need to spend that much time sparring.  It's not their job.  It's not -important- even.  Not even for a Tor does it take any sizeable amount of time or concern.  So if a noble decides he -does- want to take a lesson, why would he learn from a commoner when there are a feast of military genius nobles, as well as senior house members (which will almost always be NPC's, mind you), who are generally more than willing to teach?

Nobles know perfectly well that their guardsmen can probably best them in a duel--otherwise there'd be little need to keep the fellows around in the first place.

This explains it pretty well, as a matter of fact.  The nobility know that there are better fighters, so they have guards.  They also know that they have many many more facets and duties to tend to than their guards, things that require much more time and work than watching over someone else.  Sparring should not be a concern most nobles deal with.

And then on the other side, yes, nobles know they can be bested in combat by many commoners.  Why should it be flaunted -anywhere- besides with other nobility...and their Senior House Servants (once again, -generally- an npc...so in other words, probably something you clear with a clan immortal).  The rule 'no sparring against commoners' applies to 95% (yes, that percentage is made up) of all the situations a noble comes to.  And it just generally...doesn't...happen.  And it shouldn't, in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

I really enjoyed this post, Synthesis. All your points are right on. You might also say a noble working with his captain being something like a noble working with his coach. No one is going to say, oh, the coach can beat the noble so he's better.

How many nobles have you seen sparring captains? I've seen them sparring new recruits, sergeants - never, not once, a captain. Why? Because captains are generally not played by PCs, and those nobles generally spar PCs. Oh, how wonderful! Viva Not Reading the Docs!

I'd like to point out that this point of view explains WHY nobles spar commoners. It should not occur under any circumstances; and if it does, the commoners should -never- win. If the commoner wins, that means that he is beating the shit out of a noble - do you know how that looks? What next? Going to kick back for some drinks at the Gaj and Gladiator just because this douche belongs to his/her House? It's ridiculous, and don't even try to rationalize it: it should not occur.

There is a massive difference between the action of being taught and sparring like the lowliest Byn runner.

Now, as far as nobles sparring commoners goes...who cares? We're based somewhat on Dune, right? Well...who was teaching Paul Atreides how to fight? It wasn't another noble, that's for sure. Hell, even his mother, teaching him the Weirding Way, wasn't a noble...she was a valued concubine.

I can only hope this was a joke.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Jakahri]

A noble should not get to win against a commoner in an auction just because he is a noble.  ESPECIALLY if he is from an opposing city state. In neutral territory, everything is fair game

Absolutely Tamarin.

If you would like a commoner from an opposing city state to stop bidding, I suggest having someone politely stab a knife in his face. If that is...possible?

Opposing a noble from your own city-state would be a major booboo, in my opinion. That I would not do.

[Rindan]

I don't think that idea of a noble getting combat training is entirely far fetched; I just think it would be rare.  I could see a young rising noble who is particularly active seeking out some combat training to defend himself against assassins.  

I think the issue with noble's sparring has to do a lot with code.  Someone who is high enough ranked to be trusted to be swinging weapons at a noble is probably pretty damn good at combat themselves.  Code wise, they will clean the floor with a noble in a few seconds.  Clearly, this is NOT how you would want to teach a noble.  If I had to teach a noble, I would try just hard enough to keep them on their toes and learning, but never land any real blows.  Code wise you can't cripple yourself.  You are either beating the piss out of someone or you are not.  The best you can do is wield in the off hand, but even then, a solidly skilled warrior will mop the floor with a combat n00b even using only a single off handed weapon.

Training a noble how to fight is not like training Joe Commoner how to fight.  You just keep beating the piss out of Joe Commoner until he learns to block when you start swinging.  For a noble though, that just isn't going to fly.  If I had to have my old, grizzled and loyal house guard teach a young noble how to fight so they stand a chance should an assassin come for them or they get sent off to lead in war, I would do it through pure RP.  I wouldn't let that noble anywhere NEAR any recruits.  In fact, I would pretty much insist that I was the only one training him as I wouldn't trust anyone else.    RP it out, keep your clan imm up to date, and let them adjust skills accordingly.  

In the end though, even with the best training I imagine your average Byner or Kurac mercenary will mop the floor in normal fair combat against a noble.  Nothing is a substitute for experience, and nobles simply would never get much no matter how active they are.  Then again, if I was a noble and really had to fight, I wouldn't fight fair.  I would have a dozen guards and a poisoned blade in each hand.

[ibusoe]

The original post was awesome.

[Naiona]

There is a particuarly important little tidbit in the social mores documentation that pertains to this issue and is really not debatable in the city-state of Allanak:

*** Harming a noble physically is punishable by at the very least a severe public maiming and more usually by death***

While in Tuluk there are some shades of grey involving licensing and permits, in Allanak this is not the case - no matter what noble house you belong to.  Spar with your noble and accidentally lop off a bit of flesh and you are dead.  Most nobles won't want the commoner they value enough to trust with a weapon near them to take that kind of risk.

[Xygax]

Note:  This is not meant as official staff policy:

I think to some degree, the original poster has overstated the power (or perhaps accountability) of a PC noble.  Certainly outbidding a PC noble at auction might, if they were particularly sensitive, give them cause to wage a personal campaign against you, and yes, that campaign might result in tremendous inconvenience for your character, but I think suggesting that it would be an offense punishable by death -- or that the commoner doing the bidding would even have the fear of death in their mind -- is going a bit far.

PC nobles are indeed wealthy and powerful, and wealth and power gives them some ability to inconvenience others around them, especially commoners.  But that doesn't mean that their actions have no consequence or that they don't report to superiors who may have interests in activities OTHER than directing the resources of their noble house toward personal vendettas.

So, yeah:  twink twice before crossing a noble, even subtly.  But the players of nobles should also realize that they are not so very powerful or untouchable in the grand scheme of things.

-- X

[marko]

So, yeah:  twink twice before crossing a noble, even subtly.  But the players of nobles should also realize that they are not so very powerful or untouchable in the grand scheme of things.

-- X

I have to know.. was that a slip or on purpose?

[Larrath]

So, yeah:  twink twice before crossing a noble, even subtly.  But the players of nobles should also realize that they are not so very powerful or untouchable in the grand scheme of things.

Ha ha.

Now - a noble in his home city-state has the legal right to stand up, draw a sword, and kill a commoner for no reason whatsoever.  This is in the documentation.  A noble doesn't have to be super sensitive to be extremely offended by that commoner outbidding him - a noble can get pissed, draw a sword, and stab the commoner in the face.

With that said, I agree with what ale six said - regular commoners and nobles shouldn't even attend the same auctions, and most nobles probably wouldn't grace an auction with their presence if it would have many commoners from the opposing city state.

About sparring?  I don't really see why there's such a restriction on nobles sparring.  It seems that it's easier to apply for a Nilazi noble than to have a noble allowed to spar, and I don't really see why that is.  On the other side, I agree that a noble shouldn't really spar against every other recruit in his clan.

[Naiona]

Also not meant as policy, but to expand on what Xygax said:

It is not completely impossible for a very long term, very rich commoner to hold more 'real' power then a newer noble PC.  Yes, they might not have the power of a noble house behind them - but they very well could be reguarly bribing and nuturing a lot of powerful people and have the money to back it all up.

Of course..power can also mean enemies and danger..so this is a tricky line to walk.  Most times, I see a PC come close to this kind of power and then grind their heels on the very people who could help them keep it and lock it in.  Usually, they are dead soon thereafter.  

Playing a powerful commoner is in my opinion one of the most interesting and scary roles in the game.  Too often we see only black and white/commoner/noble.  But there are certainly many layers of power and wealth within the classes and understanding where people fall and how they can help you/be used/be crushed is all part of the fun of social RP.

[Cuusardo]

If a commoner, especially one from another city state, outbids a noble in an auction, that noble can have that commoner killed if he really wants to.  But then again, maybe the noble doesn't really care that much, because he can get something just like it if he wants to.

I guess what I'm saying is that it varies from situation to situation.

[Jherlen]

I don't think that idea of a noble getting combat training is entirely far fetched; I just think it would be rare.  I could see a young rising noble who is particularly active seeking out some combat training to defend himself against assassins.

Why would he waste the time, when he can just hire additional guards to watch his back? I think every noble probably realizes that an assassin good enough to get past his guards is going to smoke him no matter what he's been taught. Physical sparring is for commoners. Nobles are fat and lazy and don't need to worry about such things.

Training a noble how to fight is not like training Joe Commoner how to fight.  You just keep beating the piss out of Joe Commoner until he learns to block when you start swinging.  For a noble though, that just isn't going to fly.  If I had to have my old, grizzled and loyal house guard teach a young noble how to fight so they stand a chance should an assassin come for them or they get sent off to lead in war, I would do it through pure RP.  I wouldn't let that noble anywhere NEAR any recruits.  In fact, I would pretty much insist that I was the only one training him as I wouldn't trust anyone else.    RP it out, keep your clan imm up to date, and let them adjust skills accordingly.

Assuming they were going to bother to learn, I would agree that this is how to do it. Avoid coded sparring and landing blows and just teach the guy how to swing his sword and not look like an idiot doing it. Let him and his huge noble ego think he's the greatest thing to happen to swordsfighting since Zoro - because nobody will tell him he sucks to his face. If he ever IS in trouble, that's what bodyguards are for.

Then again, if I was a noble and really had to fight, I wouldn't fight fair.  I would have a dozen guards and a poisoned blade in each hand.

See, what I would do if I was a noble would be to give a poisoned blade to each of my half-dozen guards, then stand back, sip my wine, and watch.  :twisted:


In response to Xygax: You don't think that a commoner who pisses off a noble should necessarily be afraid or have fear of death in mind? I certainly do. Nobles have lots of money and usually have the ear of a templar or two, if they're smart. Obviously it depends on the severity of the insult and the status of the commoner, but in general, I think that getting on the bad side of somebody that much more wealthy and influential than you is generally a very bad and unhealthy idea more than just an inconveniene.

[LoD]

There are a lot of good points in the original post.

Nobles and commoners sort of have a raw deal.  Due to the lack of a sufficient playerbase, two social and economic worlds that would hardly ever meet on a regular basis are often forced toward one another for no other reason than to find PC-PC interaction.

You could probably fuel an entire "world" of RP with enough noble and noble house PC's, playing city politics with a field full of allies, adversaries, cohorts and underlings that rarely, if ever, participate in the ordinary lives of the common folk.  Yet we all crave interaction on some level, and the scraps we're left to fight over probably leave no small degree of want in those players that must strive to find a balance.

The fact is that this social distance should likely be as tangible as that of a magickal vs. non-magickal person.  The level at which they should play is so clearly separate that it would make sense for them to never mix, and yet they do.   And what results are usually cries of one sort of another.

Commoners may complain that a noble abuses their authority, while the noble may complain the commoner PC's don't understand their social position in relation to the gameworld.  In a perfect situation, these two worlds would likely have little to no interaction whatsoever as the hunters, rinthers, whores, craftsmen, laborers and mercenaries of the world go about their meaningless little lives amidst the simple taverns, sandy wastes and modest housing while the high born merchants, aides, slaves and nobles forge their destiny behind guarded walls, garden paths and senate floors.

In the end, I think players at each spectrum of both the social and world order struggle in a neverending fight to balance the personal enjoyment they seek in an environment that doesn't quite have the playerbase to allow it as written, suggested or intended.

-LoD

[Stroker]

So... tough luck?

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Cuusardo]

Commoners may complain that a noble abuses their authority...

In a world where nobles are above the laws of their city state, I don't think it's possible for them to abuse their powers where commoners are concerned.

[Seeker]

Here are two other posts that largely relate to these issues.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11428
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14033

There's a lot of good comments stated here, and brought up back then as well.

IMHO, the role of the nobility can veer severely towards suckage if the consensus is that not only are the Nobility strongly curtained from utilizing or developing any useful skills, but that any wealthy commoner might expect to exert comparable social influence based soley upon their pocket change.

Money alone should not be the basis of true power.  Services should not, on Zalathas, just go the highest bidder of coins.  Prestige and social standing have to count, or the concept of the Nobility is worthless.


Seeker

[LoD]

In a world where nobles are above the laws of their city state, I don't think it's possible for them to abuse their powers where commoners are concerned.

I wasn't meaning that a commoner ICly would complain that nobles were being too harsh, but more that commoner players mgiht feel a noble was killing/executing commoner PC's when they probably shouldn't even be in that environment as much in the first place.

It hasn't been as much of a problem in recent years that I've seen, but I know that there have been some past nobles who took to killing several commoner players when I doubt they really would've had a cause to interact with them in the first place if they had a suitable group of nobles with which to play and interact.

That's part of the problem.  Nobles likely don't have anything to say to a commoner, but they might frequent a common quarter in search of interaction.  When you don't have any level of play other than to be revolted/offended, the chance of your interaction revolving around negative outcomes is higher than it likely would be if said noble had enough interaction amidst their own social order to keep them out of these places.

Kind of like a wolf going to hang out with the sheep because he doesn't have enough wolf friends.  There isn't a whole lot of common ground between the sheep and the wolf, and it seems as if it's just a matter of time before it ends up bad for the sheep.

-LoD

[Cegar]

About the outbidding thing which was obviously taken from a very recent IC event, I think you should mind your own business. It is not our jobs to police specific instances of RP. That is why we have the immortals. Quite frankly, you do not have the information necessary of the characters and events involved to criticize their RP, and to do so, in my opinion, is ignorant and rude. Furthermore, you brought very, very recent IC problems to the OOC general discussion. In my opinion, that's pretty bad form. This isn't a personal attack, but I think we should let the immortals do the jobs that they are infinitely better equipped to do and leave the critiques of characters and events to the people who are supposed to do it.

[Marauder Moe]

If the "very recent IC event" people suspect this may be about happened in the last two days then I think you are mistaken.  This is a spinoff thread of a comment made in a thread posted last Saturday.  If not then... *shrug*

I have been to auctions in the distant past where nobles and commoners bid against eachother, so it's not an isolated incident.

[Packersfan]

Cegar: What you just did was take a completely vague statement and attach it to this so called recent rp event.

An Allanaki Noble losing an auction to a commoner from Tuluk, or a tribal, would be disgraceful in my opinion. A 'Nakki Noble views themselves as so much higher then a commoner that it can't even be expressed in words because it is that serious of a mind state. No matter how you cut the cake, the Noble LOSSED TO A COMMONER/TRIBAL IN SOMETHING. Therefore, I agree with your post Synthesis; people do not take Allanaki Nobility serious enough. It says in the docs that they can kill a commoner if they so please.

I could see a Noble learning from a master swordsman, just a few moves. But that swordsman better compliment the noble even if they are doing poorly. A Templar sparring a commoner? Never, never, never, never. Did I mention never?

[Jherlen]

Cross-posted from newbie thread to avoid derail...

[

:arrow: A noble sparring a commoner is bad. It leaves them open to assassination and puts the commoner on equal footing with the noble. A templar sparring a commoner isn't as bad, because they both know if the templar ever feels like it, he can call on his Sorc-King of choice's holy powers and turn the commoner into a pillar of ash. Even if a commoner has better swordplay there's no question of who is still on top.
.

A Commoner sparring a Templar is completely innapropriate. Consult the docs for further information.

I have been. I see nothing anywhere to suggest that a templar isn't allowed to do this. Nobility, yes. Unless I'm mistaken, templars are considered differently. If you can point out somewhere in the documentation that states a position on it, go ahead, but I haven't been able to find one.

All the ideas discussed about not sparring your new recruits likely still apply, but I was under the impression that templars could do just about whatever they felt like regarding commoners - spar them, screw them, kill them, whatever.

[Cegar]

Cegar: What you just did was take a completely vague statement and attach it to this so called recent rp event.

You really think he wasn't talking about the specific instance when it matches exactly the situation he ws describing? You've got to be kidding me.

[Maybe42or54]

Why would a templar spar a commoner for anything but for shits and giggles?

They can think to themselves "Tektolness Almighty, gift me with the power of iron skin and can you give me a side order of giant strength?"

[Anonymous]

I could see a Noble learning from a master swordsman, just a few moves. But that swordsman better compliment the noble even if they are doing poorly. A Templar sparring a commoner? Never, never, never, never. Did I mention never?

Do templars just spring out of holes in the ground? No... no... they're former nobles, and ARE nobles, and should be treated and role-played as such. It would be unthinkable for a templar (who's a noble) to a spar a commoner - such an act would be beneath him/her.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Larrath]

I think that templars are going to choose practicality over looking so much better than the commoners.  It's easy to tell that the templar is better than you because that templar has, you know, magick and speaks Tatlum and can really kick your ass if he wants to.
Additional to these extra reminders of superiority that regular nobles don't get, templars are also soldiers in many cases.  They don't just sit in the back and command the armies, they get out there and fight.  If templars only had minimal combat training, they wouldn't make very effective soldiers.

[Maybe42or54]

The job of a templar is to maintain law in the city which he/she serves or, more precisely, s/he is to carry out the orders of the King. All of a templar's power comes from above, either from higher ranking templars or from the King of the city. These powers might be magicks, knowledge, or any number of favours or privileges. One thing remains common: all templars are exempt from the laws of the city they serve, and this has led to much corruption within the ranks of Templars.

Why would a templar even spar? They get all their power from ABOVE. Who needs help from a dirty, unshaving, uneducated commoner?

[Tamarin]

Cegar: What you just did was take a completely vague statement and attach it to this so called recent rp event.

An Allanaki Noble losing an auction to a commoner from Tuluk, or a tribal, would be disgraceful in my opinion. A 'Nakki Noble views themselves as so much higher then a commoner that it can't even be expressed in words because it is that serious of a mind state. No matter how you cut the cake, the Noble LOSSED TO A COMMONER/TRIBAL IN SOMETHING. Therefore, I agree with your post Synthesis; people do not take Allanaki Nobility serious enough. It says in the docs that they can kill a commoner if they so please.

I'm sorry, but did the noble even try to win?  Imagine this:

Code Select Expand

The fat noble says, in sirihish:
  "I bet 1 sid!"

The filthy commoner says, in sirihish:
  "I bet 10 000 sid!"

The fat noble shrugs, and stops betting.

You're basically saying this shouldn't happen.  Well...then it's time for the noble to show what he's really made of, don't you agree?

[Larrath]

The job of a templar is to maintain law in the city which he/she serves or, more precisely, s/he is to carry out the orders of the King. All of a templar's power comes from above, either from higher ranking templars or from the King of the city. These powers might be magicks, knowledge, or any number of favours or privileges. One thing remains common: all templars are exempt from the laws of the city they serve, and this has led to much corruption within the ranks of Templars.

Why would a templar even spar? They get all their power from ABOVE. Who needs help from a dirty, unshaving, uneducated commoner?

Templars are given special authorities, are taught secrets, or are given access to magick, artifacts or hawt f-mes or whatever.  These powers don't seem to include having decent skills with a weapon.  And if the Templarate didn't need any help from some dirty, unshaving, uneducated commoner than the city-states wouldn't have Militias.

Nobles have no real need to learn how to fight because they're not really expected to ever have to fight for their own lives, being able to depend on bodyguards.  Templars can't depend solely on their bodyguards (or even on their magick) when they march off to do war.

[Maybe42or54]

As I have been by a few different templars, and have been around them more than I should, Magick makes everything possible.

[Larrath]

As I have been by a few different templars, and have been around them more than I should, Magick makes everything possible.

I don't want to get too much into this.  Suffice to say that any character that wants to get involved in combat regularly has a great deal of interest in getting some decent fighting skills.  And when templars fight, they're usually not hunting scrabs where they could make a run for it in the end.

[Maybe42or54]

No and if it becomes so bad that they are actually having to use weapons is not good odds for that templar winning. Even if they do spar, it will be with other templars and other nobles, not some commoner working for them for 5 years.

[Anonymous]

These arguments seem very redundant - one side says A, the other side says B, rinse and repeat. If you do not wish to understand, I suppose I can live with that... as long as you do not.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[jcarter]

For bidding, I think it would differ from noble to noble. Nobles don't have cookie-cutter attitudes. Yes, one might be pissed off that a commoner dared to bid against them. Another might smile and think it's cute that a commoner could even attempt to bid against them. Yet another might be happy, since they get a chance to show just how wealthy and powerful they are by upping the money.

As for the commoner, there's a variety of reasons. Maybe another noble stuck them there and funded them. Outbidding that first noble and making them look poorer than a commoner was their subtle revenge for some past transgression. Things are never black and white.

[Aldiel]

I really enjoyed this post, Synthesis. All your points are right on. You might also say a noble working with his captain being something like a noble working with his coach. No one is going to say, oh, the coach can beat the noble so he's better.

How many nobles have you seen sparring captains? I've seen them sparring new recruits, sergeants - never, not once, a captain. Why? Because captains are generally not played by PCs, and those nobles generally spar PCs. Oh, how wonderful! Viva Not Reading the Docs!

I'd like to point out that this point of view explains WHY nobles spar commoners. It should not occur under any circumstances; and if it does, the commoners should -never- win. If the commoner wins, that means that he is beating the shit out of a noble - do you know how that looks? What next? Going to kick back for some drinks at the Gaj and Gladiator just because this douche belongs to his/her House? It's ridiculous, and don't even try to rationalize it: it should not occur.

There is a massive difference between the action of being taught and sparring like the lowliest Byn runner.

Now, as far as nobles sparring commoners goes...who cares? We're based somewhat on Dune, right? Well...who was teaching Paul Atreides how to fight? It wasn't another noble, that's for sure. Hell, even his mother, teaching him the Weirding Way, wasn't a noble...she was a valued concubine.

I can only hope this was a joke.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

This was a bit of an insulting post.  BTW, nobles in real life have always had trainers.  Fencing is huge amongst nobility in RL, I don't see why combat could not be a hobby for them too on Armageddon, and I don't see why a noble would not contact one of the best guards in his service to get tips on his form.  Of course, he would do this privately.  I don't think he should be training with the rest of the Guard.  As for this bit about there being no PC captains to spar, where in my post did I say these captains were non virtual?  Cannot a discussion be about virtual things?

[Aldiel]

I think the issue with noble's sparring has to do a lot with code.  Someone who is high enough ranked to be trusted to be swinging weapons at a noble is probably pretty damn good at combat themselves.  Code wise, they will clean the floor with a noble in a few seconds.  Clearly, this is NOT how you would want to teach a noble.  If I had to teach a noble, I would try just hard enough to keep them on their toes and learning, but never land any real blows.  Code wise you can't cripple yourself.  You are either beating the piss out of someone or you are not.  The best you can do is wield in the off hand, but even then, a solidly skilled warrior will mop the floor with a combat n00b even using only a single off handed weapon.

Training a noble how to fight is not like training Joe Commoner how to fight.  You just keep beating the piss out of Joe Commoner until he learns to block when you start swinging.  For a noble though, that just isn't going to fly.  If I had to have my old, grizzled and loyal house guard teach a young noble how to fight so they stand a chance should an assassin come for them or they get sent off to lead in war, I would do it through pure RP.  I wouldn't let that noble anywhere NEAR any recruits.  In fact, I would pretty much insist that I was the only one training him as I wouldn't trust anyone else.    RP it out, keep your clan imm up to date, and let them adjust skills accordingly.  

In the end though, even with the best training I imagine your average Byner or Kurac mercenary will mop the floor in normal fair combat against a noble.  Nothing is a substitute for experience, and nobles simply would never get much no matter how active they are.  Then again, if I was a noble and really had to fight, I wouldn't fight fair.  I would have a dozen guards and a poisoned blade in each hand.

I think we're missing the important fact that we don't have to interpret the code word for word on arm.  You could spar him with a club in your inventory.  Or you could spar him with emotes.

[marko]

...I don't see why a noble would not contact one of the best guards in his service to get tips on his form.  Of course, he would do this privately.  I don't think he should be training with the rest of the Guard.  As for this bit about there being no PC captains to spar, where in my post did I say these captains were non virtual?  Cannot a discussion be about virtual things?

Combat training with pointers is not the same as sparring.  The physical act of striking a noble is punishable by death.

Teaching a noble how to swing a sword without touching them is very feasible.  There are in game mechanisms to facilitate this (teach command) and this type of training involves _no_ sparring.

As stated earlier, some of the noble houses may allow sparring between commoners and nobility but most do not.  Each House has their own reasons and this is part of the noble protocol and upbringing of the noble.  If a noble breaks this protocol and actually spars common blood then they are tossing in all their years of training and upbringing aside to do so.   Again, this only goes for those Houses that do not allow sparring with commoners.

A noble who is learning to fight as an artform would probably have no interest in learning the killing and common methods of a regular guard.  Instead they would likely be fighting in some stylized form that would have little use in a real fight.  

A couple nobles who are dueling against one another or training with one another could conceivably have a Captain of the guard observing and offering suggestions - depending entirely on the nobles involved.

For the most part, those Houses that do not allow sparring have created internal taboos against it and the nobles of that House would _not_ break these social convictions on a whim or a mere desire.  In other words, it makes no sense for nobles from the Noble Houses that do not allow sparring to be sparring and to do so is really really bad form both ICly and OOCly.

[spawnloser]

Teaching a noble how to swing a sword without touching them is very feasible.  There are in game mechanisms to facilitate this (teach command) and this type of training involves _no_ sparring.

Marko beat me to this.

To people that say, "But my noble's trusted guardsman has been in the House for 20 IG years!  He's prooven himself just like Gurney Halleck!"  Well, this isn't Dune, and you aren't an Atreides.  Also, just because TGA (Trusted Guardsman A) is above reproach doesn't mean that the spy of the House that lives right next door (rather than solar systems away) didn't poison the sparring weapon TGA will be fighting with against your noble.

I played a noble once that wanted to learn to defend himself, being the paranoid bastard that he was, and had several different members of the Guard 'teach' him.  My noble didn't want to learn an artform.  He wanted to learn to kill someone that was trying to kill him.  The thought of sparring was there, and plans were made, okayed by the IMM...though it never happened.

The plans?  Here's how in depth the order of business was planned before the okay was given by 3 senior members of the House (read: the IMMs):

Step 1: Guard to be sparred (GTBS) strips naked.
Step 2: Noble PERSONALLY inspects all articles of clothing before handing back the equivalent of a loincloth.
Step 3: GTBS enters the sparring ring, wearing the loincloth and carrying no weapon, and all articles from GTBS are put under guard.
Step 4: Noble, wearing full armor (no lightweight stuff, leather and chitin) and wielding a non-training weapon enters the ring.
Step 5: Noble and GTBS actually spar with 4 other trusted guards, just in case.

This was a fairly militant house that I was playing a noble in, and this was considered sufficient, though barely so, precautions.

Consider this when saying that noble sparring should be okay.

[Anonymous]

This was a bit of an insulting post. BTW, nobles in real life have always had trainers. Fencing is huge amongst nobility in RL, I don't see why combat could not be a hobby for them too on Armageddon, and I don't see why a noble would not contact one of the best guards in his service to get tips on his form. Of course, he would do this privately. I don't think he should be training with the rest of the Guard. As for this bit about there being no PC captains to spar, where in my post did I say these captains were non virtual? Cannot a discussion be about virtual things?

S/he may as well then just spar with a virtual noble or consult IMMs as per the most appropriate trainer for a noble. Aside from my ramblings in an attempt to ridicule your point of view, I did point out in the quoted post that there is a difference between being taught and sparring. The latter should never be practiced with commoners; the former may occur, but only with 'certain' commoners.  

And while my post was clearly intended to be insulting, I do apologize for it.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Packersfan]

Templars are given special authorities, are taught secrets, or are given access to magick, artifacts or hawt f-mes or whatever.  These powers don't seem to include having decent skills with a weapon.  And if the Templarate didn't need any help from some dirty, unshaving, uneducated commoner than the city-states wouldn't have Militias.

Sorry Larrath, but you forget that a Templar has spent about 20 years of their life receiving millitary training of all sorts. That is why their powers do include decent skills with a weapon. As for militias, Templars can die after all so they need backup sometimes. You need an army no matter what, because in the end Templars ARE human.

[Jherlen]

Still looking for where in the docs it says that templars shouldn't be sparring commoners. Don't buy the argument that templars would never need to spar - they certainly seem to fight and kill people often enough. The only templars who may not need to know how to fight are Tuluki Lirathans, and that's because the Jihaens do all the martial stuff. A templar has super god-granted powers that he can call on in self defense if he ever actually needs to. He's much safer sparring a commoner than a noble who has none.

[bloodfromstone]

Personally, I'm glad to hear so many restrictions put on nobles and sparring. That's what noble's underlings, their PC servants, are for. The last thing I want is to see nobles taking things hands-on. Then what are aides and bodyguards going to do? These roles can be slow and plodding at times as it is.

Waving off the PC whose job is to fight for you and has been waiting his entire career for a chance like this, you say, in Sirihish, "Don't worry, Sergeant. I'll take care of this."
draw sword
draw sword
bash elf

[Naiona]

Still looking for where in the docs it says that templars shouldn't be sparring commoners. .

http://www.armageddon.org/general/social_mores.html

Read "A note on sparring".  Templars are of a similar social class to the nobility, but there is even more reason to beware of assassination attempts, as they are far more likely to have generated deadly enemies.

In addition, for a templar to spar with a commoner is to admit that a commoner has anything to teach them - which is just not the case.  These are the servants of a God King.  They have been tutored from a very young age, sometimes as young as three or four years old.  By the time a templar makes his or her public appearance, the only thing to be gained by sparring with a commoner is the scorn and snickering of their fellow templars.

It should also be noted that the reason templars do not need to spar is as much OOC as it is IC.  We do not want our templar players to be spending their time hidden away trying to boost their combat skills.  They should be out terrorizing the rest of the population.

[Synthesis]

Again, I'm going to reiterate:  the increased likelihood of being assassinated after sparring is based on OOC code factors.

Spawnloser, most of those precautions you supposedly had to take are to limit the potential of a twink using a quirk in the code to kill you.  Having extra guards on hand just in case is a good idea even in a realistic case, but  a complete strip-down search is just unnecessary.  If someone was going to poison you, they would be able to do it in far simpler ways than poisoning your trainer's sparring dagger (besides which, a sparring dagger would never realistically pierce the skin of an armored individual, so it would be completely ineffective from a realistic perspective, unless it was a contact poison, in which case a sparring dagger would be the least of your concerns).

As far as Naiona's argument concerning the law against "injuring" nobility, again, it's an ambiguously fallacious argument that uses an OOC premise to support an IC conclusion.

That is:
1.  Injuring a noble is punishable by death. (IC law.)
2.  Sparring can result in injuring a noble.  (OOC code quirk.)
3.  Therefore, sparring a noble can result in being punished with a death sentence. (Purely IC conclusion.)

The second premise is based on the OOC fact that there is no way to spar and get a skill boost (without Imm support) beyond actually typing "kill joe."  Realistically, a noble in a full suit of armor--greathelm, the whole 9 yards--would never actually be injured, beyond the odd bruise.  (Of course, this raises the question:  What if we sparred using emotes and communications only?)

You cannot draw IC conclusions from OOC facts, or you run the risk of ruining the logical consistency of the gameworld.

Further, the "Social Mores" documentation seems entirely contrived, and just doesn't make any sense.  The pseudo-psychological explanation strikes me as absurd.  I can't imagine that, in a society as warlike, combative, and in-your-face as Allanak, nobles would honestly take no pleasure in fighting.  Why would nobles enjoy watching games in the Arena if they took no interest in combat?  Why would nobles of House Borsail take no interest in fighting, when a good portion of their business is based on training slaves to be gladiators?

And why not in Tuluk, where fighting and such is supposedly considered to be an art form?

Sure, you can make arguments that this noble or that noble might not be interested, but you have considerable difficulty coming up with a universal explanation that doesn't come into conflict with other "facts on the ground", and so far, to my estimation, nobody has been able to do it.

Personally, I think the staff need to re-evaluate this anti-sparring dictum.

[CaleKnight]

I pretty much agree with everything in Synthesis's excellent post.

I'd also like to point out that this would be a great use for a "full defense" option which would allow the "GTBS" to spar a noble without ever actually touching him.

And of course, if both people fighting went into "full defense" mode, combat would cease immediately, making it unnecessary to flee into an entirely different room, etc etc etc it's all been said before.

[Naiona]

*** Below is my unofficial opinion, though the documentation referenced is official***

Reading the post by Synthesis definately shows me where you are coming from.  However, it reflects a view of the Allanaki nobility that does not accurately reflect who they are, where they came from and what purpose they serve to the ruler of the citystate (based on game history and established documentation).  I've started a new thread here to discuss this - and post links to the official docs I am referencing, as this one is getting out of control long.

If what people want is a reworking of the city government and a new social definition for the nobility to turn them into working nobles rather then the indolent rich, that is an entirely different topic - but it would probably require a world-changing event of some type.

[Jakahri]

Again, I'm going to reiterate:  the increased likelihood of being assassinated after sparring is based on OOC code factors.

Only if you look at it from an ooc perspective.

Further, the "Social Mores" documentation seems entirely contrived, and just doesn't make any sense.  The pseudo-psychological explanation strikes me as absurd.  I can't imagine that, in a society as warlike, combative, and in-your-face as Allanak, nobles would honestly take no pleasure in fighting.

I find nothing contrived in the documents. It seems as if you are merely upset at the staff not allowing you to fight your noble sister/brother or commoner. If you are going to contend that the likelihood of being assassinated after sparring is based on ooc perceptions, then I find it only fair that I can contend your wanting to spar is based on ooc factors; ie you wanting to get buff, even though you have no need to since your guards are highly trained and knowledgeable in fighting.

Why would nobles enjoy watching games in the Arena if they took no interest in combat?

Perhaps they enjoy watching a gory death from the safety of the stands and do not actually prefer to lower themselves to a barbarous commoner. I'm sorry, but for a noble to enjoy an arena match in which people are slaughetered does not imply that the noble in question his/herself actually prefers to don armor and fight. Sure, a noble -could- enjoy fighting, but why would they? That's what guards are for. I find it cheesy for a noble who is holier than thou to want to train; there is no IC need for them to do such unless they are a bastard noble with a military rank. C'mon, you're pulling teeth here.

And why not in Tuluk, where fighting and such is supposedly considered to be an art form?

Again, I shall reiterate. Just because a noble enjoys watching a bout does not mean they themselves wish to engage in one. Sure, it's possible, but I personally feel you will be defeating the purpose of what it means to be a noble if you begin sparring regularly.

Personally, I think the staff need to re-evaluate this anti-sparring dictum.

I don't speak for staff, but I can only assume they'd like to see nobles focusing on other aspects of ArmageddonMUD besides sparring and training. Nobles, in my humble opinion, have far better things to do, like conspire, manipulate, bribe, extort, etc.. Nobles are not meant to be buff pc's in melee. They are meant to have other strengths that relate to the political scope of ArmageddonMUD and bring another aspect to roleplay that provides a direct contrast to your normal mundane.

Any noble who trains with commoners or other nobles in my opinion is merely lowering themself to the level of that commoner and showing an obvious lack of faith in the skills of their guard. There is nothing wrong with the Machiavellian concept of a noble. That is their intent and purpose in this game, and I'm sticking by my assertion.[/b]

[marko]

That is:
1.  Injuring a noble is punishable by death. (IC law.)

The law is anyone striking at a noble.  Whether or not they draw blood or injure them is irrelevant.

Why would nobles enjoy watching games in the Arena if they took no interest in combat?  Why would nobles of House Borsail take no interest in fighting, when a good portion of their business is based on training slaves to be gladiators?

Two separate issues.  The first is easy enough to explain.  I enjoy watching ski jumping, downhill skiing, speed skating, and bobsled.  This doesn't mean I will take up any of these sports just because I enjoy watching them.  

In other words, watching people fight is not the same as fighting yourself.  I watch boxing and ultimate fighting, yet I do not do martial arts.  I currently have no interest in martial arts.  If I did take up martial arts it wouldn't be for an interest in fighting it would be for an interest in getting into shape and self-discipline.  This is a modern day example and thus misses the scope of how things would be in Allanak by a factor of anywhere between one hundred (100) and a million (1000000.)  

A noble from an upper tier House in Allanak has lived a life of luxury and pampering - they are not fit and they wouldn't keep themselves fit.  Since birth these nobles are taught they are above the common filth.  They are taught that commoners and slaves do all their work for them.  They are taught that being fit is a sign of being a commoner.  It would be a rare noble from these Houses who is actually fit and toned.  This rare exception would face constant ridicule from their peers.  

As per Borsail's slaving operations:  That is a matter internal to Borsail but I would guess that gladiators make up a minority of Borsail's conditioning program.  And that those gladiators are trained by other slave gladiators who have proven themselves.  Training gladiators directly would be an exceptionally dangerous and risky occupation and I don't see a single Borsail noble taking a direct hand in the training.  Overseeing - yes.  Directly training?  No way.

And why not in Tuluk, where fighting and such is supposedly considered to be an art form?

Tuluk is a caste society.  That'd be an answer.  There is a _very_ distinct separation between nobility and commoners.  You do not cross it.  There are complexities involved in Tuluk's society rankings and structures that are beyond those of Allanak's but this is the simple answer.  Individual Houses have their own exact reason for the no commoner spar rule (assuming they have it).

Now, would a Tuluki noble take up a blade as an art form?  Certainly.  Would they practice under the watchful gaze of a master?  Quite possibly.  Would a Tuluki noble even go out and hunt?  I can see that easily.  Hunting for sport was a pastime of Old Tuluk.

Would they spar and engage in a physical struggle with a commoner who supports them and relies on them while, in turn, provides a variety of services to the noble?  No.  That'd be base, that'd be barbaric, and that'd be silly.  It goes against social constraints to get into a sweaty shoving match with commoners.  

Sure, you can make arguments that this noble or that noble might not be interested, but you have considerable difficulty coming up with a universal explanation that doesn't come into conflict with other "facts on the ground", and so far, to my estimation, nobody has been able to do it.

Personally, I think the staff need to re-evaluate this anti-sparring dictum.

Each playable Noble House has its own reasons for this not allowing sparring.  There isn't a single all encompassing reason for why _all_ noble Houses frown upon sparring.  There are many different reasons each of which is unique to the House they belong to.

In terms of OOC reasons - I believe the no spar rule is in place to reinforce the difference and separation of nobles from the commoners in their house.  It is a simple and effective method.  Familiarity breeds contempt.  Since the vast majority of arm players are not nobility and do not live in a society where there is a true noble culture - we need OOC constraints to constantly remind us what nobility really is.

[Armaddict]

Synthesis, I see where you're coming from, but I disagree.  Thusfar, your main argument seems to be centered around nobles getting hurt by commoners or taking risks.

Again, I'm going to reiterate: the increased likelihood of being assassinated after sparring is based on OOC code factors.

So is the fact that burglars have to pick doors to break in.  Big lock = no entry, even if you leave all your windows open for a romantic zalanthan night in your mansion.  Everything in the game is based on ooc code factors, it's played around.

If someone was going to poison you, they would be able to do it in far simpler ways than poisoning your trainer's sparring dagger (besides which, a sparring dagger would never realistically pierce the skin of an armored individual, so it would be completely ineffective from a realistic perspective, unless it was a contact poison, in which case a sparring dagger would be the least of your concerns).

Yes, there are simpler, more direct ways.  But sometimes there are other variables than just the death of the victim to take into account.  The above is a method.  And although it is not portrayed by code, the idea of poisoning a sparring dagger is not that bad of an idea, particularly for certain goals.  While it may not be guaranteed to pierce the skin that first fight, there may be subsequent matches where yes, that noble gets a scratch, and open scrape, a large -sliver-.  Yes, it's far more certain in the code, but the idea isn't as impossible as you're making it out to be.

As far as Naiona's argument concerning the law against "injuring" nobility, again, it's an ambiguously fallacious argument that uses an OOC premise to support an IC conclusion.

That is:
1. Injuring a noble is punishable by death. (IC law.)
2. Sparring can result in injuring a noble. (OOC code quirk.)
3. Therefore, sparring a noble can result in being punished with a death sentence. (Purely IC conclusion.)

I don't think that was an argument explaining THE reason that nobles generally don't spar commoners.  If anything, it says that if we allowed it, a noble who sparred a commoner could, at any point, decide he got hurt to bad and have that guy killed.  The above is a reason the commoners won't spar nobles, not why nobles won't spar commoners.

In the end, there are so many small reasons plus some big ones as to why it's not socially acceptable.  
  -Sure, it may be relatively safe, but accidents happen.  If an accident happened to a noble, the other nobility would say 'Why the fuck did he even take the risk?  He didn't need to do it."  Not socially accepted, he'll get made fun of when he shows up with a giant commoner-made scar or dies from poison.  
  -Yeah, it makes him a better fighter for his military role, or more of an artist...but he needed a commoner to improve in those aspects?  "What the hell?  We're better than them, we only need them around to do all this stupid shit we don't want to do.  He needs them, the lowlifes, to improve him?  That would mean...he's lower than them!"  Not socially accepted, he'll get made fun of for trying to be a commoner, because that's the only thing they're better than him at...being a commoner.  
  -Indeed, it may be a hobby, but a hobby doesn't require lowering yourself to improve at.  "He spent time doing -that-, and with a commoner?  What a complete waste of time, and socializing with them that way?  He must be sore for company to spend his free time with that lowborn instead of us."  Not socially acceptable.  It's a hobby that can be patronizing to the lower life forms when you do it with style and grace, rather than with the force driven by the need to survive, but -not- when you have a lower life form teaching it to you.
  -So many more reasons it doesn't occur that I didn't touch.  Funny enough, while playing the noble, the reasons tend to slip in after you get used to the 'me over them' mentality, where you -are- better.  Reasons come according to general social norms -and- each individual noble, and house, and city.

I don't mind nobles sparring, but I -do- think commoners working out and sparring on a continuous basis with nobles, even a slow one, degrades the noble and the noble role.  I'd rather this part stayed out.

[spawnloser]

Spawnloser, most of those precautions you supposedly had to take are to limit the potential of a twink using a quirk in the code to kill you.  Having extra guards on hand just in case is a good idea even in a realistic case, but  a complete strip-down search is just unnecessary.  If someone was going to poison you, they would be able to do it in far simpler ways than poisoning your trainer's sparring dagger (besides which, a sparring dagger would never realistically pierce the skin of an armored individual, so it would be completely ineffective from a realistic perspective, unless it was a contact poison, in which case a sparring dagger would be the least of your concerns).

Since everyone else has responded to the rest of what you said...I'll reply to this specifically.

The motto of every assassin should be, "Any object can be used as a weapon capable of killing."  Just because you can't bash someone's head in with a book through code doesn't mean that you couldn't realistically do it.  Also, a wooden dagger can't pierce the skin?  Tell that to the people in the game using wooden swords.  "Those can't hurt me!  They're made of wood!"  Are you going to call everyone using a wooden weapon a twink?

Also, as far as poison goes, there are inumerable ways to poison someone.

The strip search WAS necessary from an IC point of view...to make sure that the person was not hiding poison in...ahem...a creative location?  Perchance a location not actually supported by code, and thus not twinky, since being twinky is utilizing ooc knowledge or the code to generate an advantage that you should not have.

[Cale_Knight]

Also, a wooden dagger can't pierce the skin?  Tell that to the people in the game using wooden swords.  "Those can't hurt me!  They're made of wood!"  Are you going to call everyone using a wooden weapon a twink?

No, because the people using wooden swords are using sharpened wooden swords. Wooden training weapons are basically sanded-down sticks with pommels.

[spawnloser]

They have edges, otherwise they are clubs.  Maybe they're not as sharp, but you can still stab someone with them and draw blood.  Trust me, I've done it in real life.