Different Combat Code

[Folker]

Greetings.

While this is not per se a suggestion, or even a call for a massive and immediate revamp of the combat code. But it's more of a possibility that I would like to be discussed and pondered upon. From how much better ... or worse such a different combat system would be, to how difficult it would be to implement it and so on and so forth. Odds are, I'm not the first one to even raise this issue, but eh what a heck.

Basically, I am talking about a system of combat that revolves around skills only. Forget things like continual automatic attacks every couple of seconds that both fighters do onto each other whether ... they like it or not. But imagine combat that consists entirely out of skills such as ... kick,bash,disarm,kick,punch,swing,chop,pierce, etc.

So for example, should a fighter be proeffecient in slashing, dual handed weapons. For him combat will not involve wielding two slashing weapons, typing "kill mofo" and ... that's it. But it will involve use of skills such as ... "slash mofo". Each such skill would have specific delays with them which may be shorter or longer depending on whether or not only one weapon is wielded or two, or if it's some kind of special weapon. The delays would allow a person to emote the combat out while waiting for delay timer to run down. So every swing that currently is performed automatically, would be infact performed by the command of a player every single time. Or the fighter might choose ... not to type in any commands, and simply ... not fight back.

Though I suppose some sort of approach system would be requied, in order to lock two different fighters in combat. So say, once a person approaches you, you are unable to move into another room unless you escape the approach and move away. This will allow people to disengage without leaving the actual room.

I am sure such or similar combat systems are implemented in multitude some other mud, so it would not be entirely novel of an idea. But what do you think? feasable ? not feasable? Worth the time needed to code such a thing in? Acceptable for armageddon theme or not? And so on.

[Malifaxis]

What was it that was said in Office Space about the 'Jump To Conclusions Mat'?

[Folker]

say again?

[Malifaxis]

I do not believe this is a good idea.

A combat code revamp would screw the pooch on a lot of already coded scripts and other things.  The combat code, as it works, is pretty much flawless.  There's none of the problems I've seen on other muds (heartbeat loss, looping lag, etc).

Quite simply, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

[jhunter]

I don't think that there's anything wrong with the combat code as it stands. Honestly, I think it's fine and I don't have any issues with it at all.

[Maybe42or54]

If flee was fixed so you could pick to flee the room or stay, that would be great, but spamming "pierce" 80 times and then trying to emote as you go, will really just end up etting rid of emotes in combat, as you'll die quick. Since "pierce" is six letters and "Emote launches a left foot in an attempt to kick %target." is 47 letters? Chop is only 4 letters. And then we could set them up as triggers, so I could just type "pe" so there really would be no emoting. Then the ones on a 14.4 modem is going to be a whole lot slower at fighting than one guy on a T1 lines.

[Folker]

That's easilly fixed by the delay timers. Let's say ... 10 seconds per each command. It'll certainly make battle longer, but it'll give plenty of time to emote.

[Maybe42or54]

10 seconds? That is a joy-kill right there. I can attack, IRL, probably more than 7 times in 10 seconds if I was trying to kill something with a dagger.
Waiting 10 seconds between chances to hit would really kill my patience with the game.

[jhunter]

Agreed, I'd stop playing combat pcs because of how slow it would be then.

[Folker]

The general aim that I was trying to go for is to achieve interactivity during combat. Aswell as put it entirely under a player's control so it will be possibly to roleplay much greater numbers of various plots. The ability not to fight back alone increases the amounts of roleplaying possibilities during combat.

[Malifaxis]

There is plenty of interactivity in combat as it is, dude.

[Maybe42or54]

It is a good thought, but the idea, in my opinion, is really lacking.
I tried a mud once where you had to "hit" the dman NPc or you wouldn't do any damage.

So I thought "Hey! That's a cool idea! I should Idea it for Arm!"
Then something bad happened... I actually had to fight.
The delay between hits was anywhere from 9 seconds (for a newbie like me) and 1 1/2 seconds for a master.

Now, I thought, I'd get better.

So I went and found me a "mud crab."

I tried to hit 7 times. Missed 7 times.
I tried to hit 7 more times. Missed 5 times. Hit for a total of 2 hp.
Tried to hit 7 more times. Missed 7 times.
Then I looked at the mud crab.. and it was healed already!
So I repeated for more than half of an hour trying to kill a damned 20 HP mudcrab with a 2 handed broadsword of fighting. Logged off. Never went back.

[RogueWarrior]

Actually, I played a MUD once that had sort of the system Folker suggested. In addition to your combat skills, you had a stun skill. The battle went sort of like a D&D combat round. After each attack, you had to regain your balance before attacking again. Each character did this same thing, and after a very short period of time (for the crappiest characters, five seconds) each character would be able to attack again. This system allowed for better RP, for example, you could have the traditional stand-off, circling, and attacking again, without having to flee mid-combat. Also, it kept the players involved. As the system stands now, you enter combat, and then just watch, which can cause (for those of us with shorter attention spans) drifting. Again, rounds, and the frequency of attacks are based on your stun skill, which in turn is affected by everything from hunger, to sleep, to intoxication, to fighting prowess. Maybe it's just me, but I thought this was a beautiful combat system after you got used to it. If I can find the MUD again, I'll post it so whoever wants can try it out (I quit playing because of the immense lack of RP).

[SpyGuy]

I don't like this idea, mainly the largest problem I have with it is that it isn't automated so that creates all sorts of problems for people with slow connections, a house emergency or the like.  As it stands it isnt a major problem if I get a phone call and need to look away from the screen for a minute, I know that tandu I'm fighting wont suddenly gain the upperhand.  Or that if I have to idle for a moment in the wild and aggro npc (or for that matter PC) comes along and attacks I know I'll at least be able to somewhat hold my own until I get back to the computer.  If I died to a mob because it attacked me while I was OOCly distracted and couldn't spam "pierce" then I'd be upset.

Not to derail but my two wishes for combat that I can think off the top of my head:
1) ability to flee but remain in the same room, basically for issues of sparring
2) a more realisted and fleshed out combat system, similiar to what is in SoI where wounds are received and regen for bruises and cuts is slower.  This, however, would likely be a fairly major overhaul but I'd like to see the realism of it a lot.  Bynners would look a little beat up after sparring, dead bodies would have wounds to show whether they were killed by animals, humanoids or magick.

But the combat system is fine as it is.  I think it has an arcade feel to it but it's also simple and relatively flexible regardless.

[chang]

After each attack, you had to regain your balance before attacking again. Each character did this same thing, and after a very short period of time (for the crappiest characters, five seconds) each character would be able to attack again.

Implement the ability to wait longer than needed to attack so you can build up your special.

Fun.  The combat system is fine as it is, though.

[Angela Christine]

Ugh.  I too have tried a MUD with a system like this, and it made combat even more annoying than usual, but then I don't like combat.  

> hit badguy
You can't attack for 5 seconds

> hit badguy
You can't attack for 3 seconds

> hit badguy
You miss!

> hit badguy
You can't attack for 7 seconds

Arrgh!


It may work for some people, but I just kept repeating the same commands without really paying any attention, something most client programs allow you to do easily.  Fifteen minutes later I'm still hitting enter every few seconds to keep repeating the command, my stamina-equivient has dropped to nothing, and both me and the newbiebeast I was fighting are barely scratched.  Yay, now I'm praying for death!

Sure, with the current system combat can be dull, but at least it isn't dull and annoying.

Changing the combat system might eventually end up with a better system, but in the mean time it would almost certainly be a much worse system for a long time while all the kinks were worked out.


Angela Christine

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Instead of changing the combat system at the base, why not just add some eye-candy in there, eh? New skills or ways to use things or a few new parameters that keep dwarves from kicking giants in the head or... or ... wait, I've got it ... the ability to link emotes with combat commands ... oooo.

Interactivity, without breaking combat code itself (because believe me, you really don't want them to do that ... and they don't want to do it, either).

[Rindan]

The problem with this idea is twofold.

First, this makes emoting in combat harder.  Sure, when you are in a more "RPed" combat situation it gives you a little more freedom, but once you get down to actually killing you are handicapped.  As it stands, if I hit kill, I have all the time in the world to start emoting.  Under this system, I have until my delay timer wears off.  Once the delay wears off, I need to stop typing my emote to tell the game to attack again.  I think this would lead to less RP as you have even less time to type out an emote before you need to input more information into the game.

Second, this is a coding impossibility.  Nothing will break this game more then touching the combat code.  The combat code affects absolutely everything.  Tweaking the combat code is dangerous and asking for bugs.  Tearing it out and putting a new combat code in is basically begging to break everything.  

For better or for worse, we are stuck with the combat code we have.  Now, there might be some possibility to tweak it a little and play within the bounds of what already exists, but whole sale revamps are close to an impossibility at this stage of the game.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Another BIG problem: NPCs..

Yeah, good luck with all that automation.

Anyway, combat system is a central building point.. don't fuck with it or you could screw everything else up.

Unless, then again, you want to run a pansy mud where there is no combat.

[RogueWarrior]

Oh... another idea I had, before I forget about it...

How hard would it be to adjust the combat code so that, after a certain amount of time fighting (determined by endurance, combat skill, hunger, thirst, rest, weather conditions, etc) the combatants' stamina would begin to slowly decline. The lower the stamina, the more the PC's combat skill drops (attacks begin to slow, become less powerful, etc.), and after a while, they simply could not fight back. If nothing else, I think that it would give players a little bit of a push to RP being tired out during, if nothing else, sparring. Also, it could help to eleminate skill twinking and sparring for days on end, just because you and the person you are fighting are too fast to hit each other.