Strike

[Larrath]

Then what about Suk-Krathis using cantrips, or even coded spells, to prepare food?  Travel cakes, bread, cooked meat, dried fruit, et cetera...

What about people trying to hide, via emote and ldesc, in a closet or under a table while they lack the skill?

People braiding their own hair while they have no knowledge of ropemaking?


The fact is that the code is secondary to the roleplay.  This is why, once upon a time, I've heard about a character that was stranded in a locked room, being attacked by someone, and this character broke the door down (via Wish) and successfully got away?  This is because it's realistic that a strong person in Zalanthas will be able to break down most doors, since they tend to have little if any reinforcements and the wood tends to be thin and/or weak.

And in contrast, of course, is the fact that not everything that the code lets you do should be done.  It's very easy to hunt until you're dangerously low on hitpoints, get back and sleep for five RL minutes and then hop back to it, and yet nobody should ever do that.

[Qetesh]

So, according to what you are saying, we can't emote tossing something to someone if we use the coded command "give" to give it to them. Because it doesn't say that we tossed it to them?

We couldn't emote say....walking on our hands, (acrobat or whatever) because the code shows us as walking (generally considered on your feet) when we move into another room?

You can't emote, tying a rope to something before cllimbing down it...because the code says he are just holding in our hands?

I'm not saying that you cannot be liberal in the way you use the skill. But it is a skill and you should not be using it to compensate for others that your PC may lack.

All I am saying is that if you use a kick and choose to emote it. It should in some way involve a blow with your legs and preferably your feet.

The fact that things can inhance it, just like things can inhance bash, or your ordinary fighting and the fact that not everyone has the skill should be a factor when you think about tossing a kick in your fight. If it's doing specific coded damage, you should be Rp'ing it properly.

[Larrath]

Using a kick emote to compensate for something a character lacks.
If I understand this correctly, this is much less about elbowing and weaponbutt-slamming (not coded skills) and more about using 'kick' as a leg-sweep to trip someone a la bash, or to kick away an attack a la parry, or by attempting to disarm with the kick.

If this is all you meant, Qetesh, I don't think anyone here was really in any disagreement.

[Qetesh]

Using a kick emote to compensate for something a character lacks.
If I understand this correctly, this is much less about elbowing and weaponbutt-slamming (not coded skills) and more about using 'kick' as a leg-sweep to trip someone a la bash, or to kick away an attack a la parry, or by attempting to disarm with the kick.

If this is all you meant, Qetesh, I don't think anyone here was really in any disagreement.

No, it's using kick as a bash form of hit. Like throwing a kick, waiting for a coded response for success/failure, then emoting that you headbutted someone.

Why it's bad is because Kick is a coded skill, with certain items that give you an advatage/disadvantage on success and damage, and all of it is footwear. So, having a pair of super sharp boots on will essentially make you a better head-butter in your free form emoting style for kick.

By using the coded damage of a kick as another form of hit.. It just seems sort of twinkish.. Yes I understand it's just an emote and you don't have a lot of alternatives, but we do have a skill for that sort of thing and it's the bash skill.

Or you could even come off a bunch of good hits landed with your weapons by emoting that you've butted them with your blade or tossed out a headbutt.

I really don't think it's that big a deal if you toss a kick and then emote tossing your knee up and then headbutting.. But you should "realistically" and I use the term lightly, be using your feet in some way if you are going to emote out the damage cause by a kick.

As for the Half Giant Scenerio, you could always emote kicking it in the groin and then kicking it in the face when it's bent over.. Though I think the flying through the air hurricane kick is your best bet.. far more power and you have that wind thing working for you.  :wink:

[Only He Stands There]

I think what Qetesh is getting at is that "kick" implies a kick - swinging a leg with the intent of striking someone with your leg or foot - while "bash" implies attacking someone with a part of your body - be it a kick, elbow, knee, Five-Point-Palm Exploding-Heart attack, etc.

In other words, instead of substituting all those attacks for a kick, do it for a bash.

[Edit - And Qetesh beat me to it. Drat.]-

[Olgaris]

Kick is a kick. Don't use kick and emote something totally different than a kick. While I think a strike with an appended emote would be a great addition, or replacement for kick, I don't think kick should be used with emotes about throwing punches etc.

Please re-read the bolded part of my statement. It does not seem ambiguous to me as to whether I was stating staff policy or my own opinion.

[spawnloser]

Okay, as I see this, we have a skill called 'kick' that does extra damage.  We have a skill called 'bash' that does some damage as well, but also carries the knock down behind it.  These are code-based things.  This is a roleplaying game.  Code...roleplaying...which will win?

Personally, I believe that we should be able to emote whatever we want.  Seriously, if what Qetash and Olgaris are stating ends up being the official staff standpoint, noone on Zalanthas will ever be able to headbutt, knee or elbow someone...because the canned emote said something different.  Canned emotes can bite my ass, for all I care.  In many cases they are great for letting you know what you did...but in many, they're restrictive and hamper RP.  I'd rather roleplay and have fun than have to pay way too much attention to the code rather than focus on the story and making it a good one.

[Armaddict]

Mmkay.

So because we put bonuses to skills on only a certain item slot (which I understand...I don't think 'kick' was anticipated as somethin people would use like 'strike', at least not to the extent it is), then I'm not allowed, at least in some peoples opinions, to have a unique fighting style that may or may not include straight up 'kicks' that use the boot-into-the-body approach?  As in, I'm allowed to have my character throw elbows and headbutts and pommel-slams in combat, I'm just not allowed to actually do damage for trying it.  Hurray for having your own fighting styles.

As for using the 'kick' skill to give your character skills they shouldn't have, such as those pommel slams and the like...I think that with the restricted number of actual combat skills/scripts there are, that mode of thought restricts the imagination on combat scenes -far- too much.  We've been degraded into people who stand still now (since the game does not tell me I'm adept at moving around, aside from the dodges, which don't tell me anything besides 'you move and make him miss').

The way I've always seen it...use bash if you're doing something that's trying to take someone off their feet.  Use the emote before you use the skill, it's rather simple, actually.  If you miss, it's fairly easy to come up with a way you messed it up to lose your balance, or if your opponent is quick and perceptive, they may toss in an emote saying how -they- knock you over in -your- move. (I love when that happens.)

Use kick if it's a simple strike.  NOT limited to the feet, as strikes are NOT limited to from the feet, and there is no other coded way for these strikes to come into effect.  If it's just hitting them with an off-blow between weapon attacks...it's -probably- a kick.  A 'strike'.

[Qetesh]

Personally, I believe that we should be able to emote whatever we want.  Seriously, if what Qetash and Olgaris are stating ends up being the official staff standpoint, noone on Zalanthas will ever be able to headbutt, knee or elbow someone...because the canned emote said something different.  Canned emotes can bite my ass, for all I care.  

First it's Qetesh, and second.. That's not what I am saying..

All I am saying is that you should not use the "coded" effect of kick with some other kind of fighting -without- some kind of kick incorporated.

I don't think it's ok to wait to see if someone gets the "you get side hammered by so-and-so's kick, you see stars" to emote a headbutt instead.

And that is because the kick -skill- is a skill and should be used as a skill. And like most skills, certain things will make it more and less effective. Specifically footwear.

Things like headbutts are not skills, so they can be emoted, whenever you want, but using kick and then basing the result of a kick on weither or not you landed a headbutt or how good a headbutt is, doesn't make sense and in my personal opinion, should not be done.


So for example:

Bad:

John kicks tom

Delay

Tom gets kicked and sees stars.

John emotes "Comming in close and wrapping up toms weapons, john headbutts Tom, knocking him dizzy"

Good:

John kicks tom

Delay

Tom gets kicked and see's stars

John emotes "John kicks Tom back, then catching him off balance and coming in close, knocks him with a headbutt."

I'm not saying you can't do it.. Just don't base the coded response off it.

[spawnloser]

Sorry for the misspelling...

Anyway, I still feel that this is too restrictive.  If your opinion is that we should not emote anything other than, as Armaddict said, boot-to-opponent style kick when using the skill, I don't want 'kick' no more.  Something more generic that allows creativity should be used.

This is a game that has code, yes, but first and foremost, roleplaying is about the story.  Having canned emotes for skills that are both so specific that we can not play around them, when the coded effect is unchanged (command entered -> random roll -> damage to opponent), is counterproductive to roleplay.

[Delirium]

I've always been an advocate of replacing the skill 'kick' with the skill 'strike'.

It would solve the entire argument people are having on this thread.

With an open-ended 'strike' echo, people could emote anything within the realm of reason, from kicks, to using the butts of their weapons, etc.  I believe that was the intent behind the original suggestion of this thread (and not the argument it has devolved into).

Until then, though, I do agree that emoting out the kick command should somehow involve use of the foot, even if you're mainly using your foot to trip them up so you can get close for an emoted strike.

It can cause confusion otherwise.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd prefer we fix the combat system all together. And if not, then I hope we can either get strike, or a new command. Or new commands. Awesome. I agree somewhat on kick. Just because you are good at kicking someone doesn't mean you are good at headbutting someone.

New skills (could be worked into a new unhanded combat style, called Brawler)

Headbutt
Kick
Strike


This is what I do when I kick.

emote ducks low and jumps up, attempting to headbutte ~target.

kick target

[Anonymous]

Anyway, I still feel that this is too restrictive. If your opinion is that we should not emote anything other than, as Armaddict said, boot-to-opponent style kick when using the skill, I don't want 'kick' no more. Something more generic that allows creativity should be used.

He -clearly- pointed out that emoting OTHER actions is perfectly acceptable as long as they are SEPARATE from the action of 'kick.' When you type in 'kick person,' you .... kick ... them. I agree, that IS restrictive, but I always feel silly emoting anything -other- than a kick for a 'kick' skill.

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Raesanos]

Looks like a lot of people feel like kick is too restrictive due to it tying you to the specific things the code is saying is going on.  In my personal opinion this is a valid complaint... I like to see commands that give you enough leeway to use your imagination and flesh out the details of what is going on yourself.  However, the solution here is not to decide that the command doesn't do what its doing and roleplay something completely different.  I think some adjustments to the kick command aren't a bad idea and would love to see more discussion on what could change.  I'm going to look at the code when I get home tonight and see how difficult adjustments would be.

[Qetesh]

I'd personally like to have kick left alone.. I like the comand and would like to have an alternate command that allows you to make upper body strikes without the full brunt of knocking somone down.

Things like headbutting, elbows to the face and neck and bashing the pommel of a weapon to the face and neck sent into one command, maybe call it.. I dunno.. Strike?

[Raesanos]

To make sure I'm clear, I'm not saying I'm looking at the code to go right ahead and change it, for now its just for the sake of discussion (I think its a good discussion)

[spawnloser]

Dirr, I understand that...but I think that we have a working skill that simply has the wrong name and wrong canned emote.  I've never felt bad about kneeing or headbutting being the emote when I use the command.  Most people simply adapt.

Qetesh, as far as having multiple skills/commands...I think we don't need more, we just need one that's less RP restrictive, if we're going to be considered poor RPers for not emoting our foot being involved in any unarmed blow that isn't fists.

[Tarx]

*shrug*

I'm fine with using bash for other stuff and kick for kick.  

[Maybe42or54]

I'd prefer more code to support RP that much more.

I don't like it how someone can be good at kick and good at headbutting, even if they only ever kick.

[spawnloser]

Bash is damage plus knockdown, with the possibility of knocking yourself down.  Kick is damage.  I feel that one is appropriate for when knocking someone down, no matter how emoted.  The other is for just doing an extra swing with forehead/elbow/knee/foot/bum to do damage.

Also, some people end up with one skill and not the other.  How do you work around that?  If you have only kick and want to headbutt, because that's your character's style...you'd have to find another way to go about it, Tarx.

[jmordetsky]

I've always been an advocate of replacing the skill 'kick' with the skill 'strike'.

It would solve the entire argument people are having on this thread.

With an open-ended 'strike' echo, people could emote anything within the realm of reason, from kicks, to using the butts of their weapons, etc.  I believe that was the intent behind the original suggestion of this thread (and not the argument it has devolved into).

Until then, though, I do agree that emoting out the kick command should somehow involve use of the foot, even if you're mainly using your foot to trip them up so you can get close for an emoted strike.

It can cause confusion otherwise.

I agree. As of now, the "kick" has an echo saying that you either hit or missed a "kick".

Boots of various kinds can increase the damage of your "kick".

If you want to type kick and then emote headbutting, but still get the damage increase afforded by your spike toed laser boots, thats fine, but well...The game said you kicked me. *shrug*

I would love a generalized Strike command to go with Bash. Bash, I feel leaves a little bit to the imagination.

[jmordetsky]

Looks like a lot of people feel like kick is too restrictive due to it tying you to the specific things the code is saying is going on.  In my personal opinion this is a valid complaint... I like to see commands that give you enough leeway to use your imagination and flesh out the details of what is going on yourself.  However, the solution here is not to decide that the command doesn't do what its doing and roleplay something completely different.  I think some adjustments to the kick command aren't a bad idea and would love to see more discussion on what could change.  I'm going to look at the code when I get home tonight and see how difficult adjustments would be.

This really sums up my thoughts. I'd love to see:

Strike - Extra Damage  + bonus for gear (Ala kick)

Physical Knock Down - Extra Damage + Knock Down + Bonus for Gear  (Ala Bash)


How would you determine how to give out damage bonuses for strike? Boots, vs Gloves?


I hate canned emotes. While we're at it lets remove them from Brawl.

[Halaster]

I think the -easiest- solution would be simply to rename kick as strike and reword the echos the code sends to be more generic...

[Delirium]

I think the -easiest- solution would be simply to rename kick as strike and reword the echos the code sends to be more generic...

Yeah, exactly.

[jhunter]

I think the -easiest- solution would be simply to rename kick as strike and reword the echos the code sends to be more generic...

Exactly, -and- add the ability to tag an emote onto it. Problem solved. That is pretty much what I was getting at with my original suggestion on the idea of a "strike" command. That is how alot of people who play combat types and want to have more of their own fighting style use kick anyway.