Remove Sleep-Healing

[Anonymous]

I would like to see the sleep-healing phenomenon removed from the game.

I think it should remain that after a point (which should stay the same) your HP doesn't go back up, but take away the fact that you can "sleep it off."

Then add an NPC in the Viv temple in Allanak that you can pay for healing. Make it something like 200 sids, flat rate.

Add NPCs in Allanak and Tuluk that will bandage you up for 300 or 350 sids. Bandages are expensive after all, and these guys would use the good kind.

I think this would place a lot more value on the Bandage skill and the Physician sub-guild. Houses will want to hire healers, and hunters will want to make friends with them. It should also reduce cases of over huntering and over sparring. Plus... isn't it just more realistic?

Thoughts, opinions and critiques?

[Sholdyn]

Oops... Thought I was logged in.

[JollyGreenGiant]

We need more ways to die?   :shock:

Actually, I like the idea. Rather than eliminating the ability to "sleep it off" entirely, though, I'd just add an extra range, so that from 1-25% of your total hp, you'd have to get a healer of some kind, from 26-50% you can recover if you sleep, and from 51-100% you'll recover normally while awake. (Note: percentages are just for illustration purposes. I have no idea what the actual breakpoint is in game for not recovering normally is.)

[daedroug]

yeah really it's easy enough to die as it is. and I doubt you want to make a new hunter and then come close to death while killing somthing and then have to pay 300 sid to fix yerself up

[JohnGalt]

Zalanthans are not typically humanoids.  They have an accelerated healing rate.  Certain injuries however are beyond this genetic improvement, and will require magicks or in some cases a skilled physician to properly heal.  

From an OOC standpoint, the game is harsh enough.  There are plenty of ways to die in less than 10 seconds (I've experienced several of them) and I don't think we need to add to the difficulty.  I completely support people who roleplay being injured however, I think it's a great opportunity to roleplay how your character deals with pain/loss/misfortune.

[Sholdyn]

Yeah... ok.. I admit that it's a drastic idea, but I like JollyGreenGiant's idea. I just really think healing arts should worth something more than they are. Especially in a House when it's so easy to just lie on a bunk and sleep until your HP goes up. Houses should be able to employ healers. And virtual healing is fine-and-dandy, but it takes away from the value PC healers. *shrug*

[Marauder Moe]

I agree the PC healers are pretty useless, which is probably why there are so few of them, which makes it extremely annoying when you have someone who's actually RPing an injury and won't sleep it off but you can't find a PC healer.

I think the bandage skill needs to be reworked.  It needs to start higher or make *failure* mean you only heal 1hp or something.  As it is now, there's really no way to train it because your friends will yell and scream that it hurts when you touch them.

I also agree that there need to be NPC healers and that the Vivadu temple NPC should sell healing magick services.  Maybe even take it a step further and have medic NPCs in clan barracks.

If these changes or something similar were implemented, then I'd agree that sleep-healing could be reduced or taken away.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Once we get to the point where we have physician as a main class, we might be able to discuss this relic of the game's H&S days.

The fact is, this is definitely a bit of code that the game can do without, but I don't think we're quite at the point where we can get rid of this crutch.

[Savak]

I'm more in favor of this sort of thing than I used to be.  Personally I wouldn't be remiss if "sleep" didn't automatically heal -everything- from 0-max.  On the other hand, barring infection, most physical injuries (the ones non-fatal in the short term, unlike major arterial injuries) really do just take time to heal.  I still like the idea of the scarred desert hermit who takes care of themselves.  But if someone is conscious while at < 10% or so of their available hitpoints, I like the idea of requiring someone else to help them out, or a negative modifier to bandaging themselves.

[Anonymous]

I agree with what ERS said, for the most part, bandaging isn't where it is to make this viable.  As it stands I would imagine that doing this would result in PCs wandering around at 5hp for days trying to find a healer.

In addition, there should be some offline or 'long-duration' self-healing.  Something less than 24 hours but more than 5 minutes whereby a PC who has survived a rough fight is fully healed without sleeping or bandaging.

[amoeba]

I don't like the insta-sleep cure as well, but I like the present alternatives less.  I also have little faith in the tear it down and things will grow in it's place approach.  Far too much wishful thinking and a change like this has a -serious- impact on the game.  

Things need to be in place before this happens.  The houses, and nobles are easy. Have a coded physician somewhere.  Most already have a medic type NPC. Independants are much, much harder.  As a newbie hunter/wanderer you are -very- likely to get down to the needing sleep stage.  Newbie independents (and I mean this in the term of a new character, not player) have very few resources. If you did not heal, you are screwed, badly.  Access to healers is not often an option, and bandages as they are presently implemented are damn scary instruments of tortrue.

Not curing fully from sleep can have as big an impact on roleplay as does permadeath.  Namely it will change the behaviour of the players.  Without the obsticales to healing being inplace, it would most likely reduce conflict, as people will be too afraid of getting to a point where they could not heal.

[jhunter]

I'm in favor of a change along these lines. But, as others have pointed out, there are many things that would have to be changed to fit this in so that it was both realistic -and- playable.

[bloodfromstone]

There would have to be a lot more changed along with it. I would weep for the independant population if this went in without some serious tweaking. There should be great advantages to playing in organized groups, but the code shouldn't force people into it.

[Armaddict]

Bandage seems to be the problem thusfar...perhaps the skill will get some attention later.

Maybe only a critical fail should actually -harm- who you're trying to help out, but do a lot more harm.

A failed bandage could be just sloppy...no harm, but no help either.  Use bandage skill again to remove that bandage (with another chance to critical fail), then redo it.

Or something like that.  But the bandage skill as is, is just far too useless -and- expensive for that limited benefit you gain.

As to the sleeping...the immortals slowed down regeneration rates partially because of the sleep-healing-reattacking deal or something, didn't they?  I could be mistaken, that's just a guess.  This is kind of a long-time problem, but in order to fix it well would probably require a lot of code and revamping to make it actually worthwhile.  Broken bone as opposed to an arrow wound.  One will likely heal with time unless there's festering, and the other can heal but has a probability of healing incorrectly and leaving the victim debilitated.  The level of detail required is kind of in the way of fixing this.

My other example...one of those close fights you see from time to time, where nicks and grazes are all that occur.  Perhaps the occasional light hit.  One runs away, sits down...but they waited too long to flee.  For some reason, those little cuts and bruises can't heal unless you fall asleep?  Should nicks/grazes only even be -able- to get you to that point of not being able to heal?

Kind of a deeper dilemma than I thought, just some quick thoughts.

[Synthesis]

I can already foresee one unintended consequence if something like this system were implemented.

PC healers would still be largely useless, because people would simply change their behavior to completely avoid danger.  Barring completely unforseen circumstances, nobody would ever drop below their healing range.  (Already, this rarely happens, except for newbie players...which is one reason most people don't have any -skill- with bandaging.)

Even then, the vast majority of people getting grievously injured would be new PCs, since their low skill levels ultimately translate into a large degree of uncertainty in combat situations.  The problem here is that those who would be most in need of PC (or NPC) healers will be those who are least likely to be able to pay for such services.  This would further lead to people: 1) Suiciding characters with poor stats and 2) Suiciding characters who fall victim to excessive damage early on in their careers.  1 because characters with good stats will be less likely to get mauled in combat (agility becomes even -more- important than it already is) and 2 because getting healed will either be too costly or simply impossible (for outlaws, iso-clans, and off-peak players).

Of course, I'm not saying veteran PCs don't get seriously injured, but it doesn't happen often enough to support a PC healer economy.

Now, allow me to add that I think the current damage system is definitely wonky, and something should be done to fix it.  What that fix might be, I have no idea.

[Anael]

How about a middle way: You can sleep off only X hp per day.  If X was 5% of max, it'd take 5 in game days to heal a wound that took you down to 25%. Then you'd reach 50% of your health and from that point, you'd heal even awake, as normal.
PS: same as JGG, these numbers are only examples.

[Puppet]

I can already foresee one unintended consequence if something like this system were implemented.

PC healers would still be largely useless, because people would simply change their behavior to completely avoid danger.

I just wanted to comment on this.

Why is that a bad thing? Shouldn't most people avoid danger? I think it'd be a good thing if people who normally wouldn't be so reckless, no longer jumped headlong into harms way.

I kind of like the idea. I think there would need to be some balance so that it was still playable, but I agree that people shouldn't be able to restore their health from 0 to max in about 3 minutes.

[Ghost]

Playability.

[amoeba]

Why is that a bad thing? Shouldn't most people avoid danger? I think it'd be a good thing if people who normally wouldn't be so reckless, no longer jumped headlong into harms way.

Better for the character living a long life, but concidering that conflict and suspense is what makes a story interesting, having people be more cautious and reducing conflict is counterproductive to those goals.

[Puppet]

I don't really think conflict/suspense and throwing yourself in coded damage's way are really conducive to one another. You want somone beat up, but they're bigger and meaner than you? Go find a PC who's bigger and meaner than them and pay them to do it, or you know, just take the risk. There is nothing wrong with a little reinforced caution, in my opinion.

[jhunter]

I don't really think conflict/suspense and throwing yourself in coded damage's way are really conducive to one another. You want somone beat up, but they're bigger and meaner than you? Go find a PC who's bigger and meaner than them and pay them to do it, or you know, just take the risk. There is nothing wrong with a little reinforced caution, in my opinion.

And where are you going to find the one that's going to take a chance on themselves getting hurt -for you- if things are this way? I doubt you will be able to find anyone or it will be very very hard. This would cut down conflict bigtime. Personally, if it became that bad. I'd stop playing.

[Ghost]

And where are you going to find the one that's going to take a chance on themselves getting hurt -for you- if things are this way? I doubt you will be able to find anyone or it will be very very hard.

I agree.  That is probably why it is not easy to find a tough guy or a skilled assassin to do your dirty work EVEN now.  The reason is currently the crime code, mostly.  And this idea will add more to the downside of things.

[LoD]

One of the major factors that comes into all of these discussions about how we treat damage to our characters is the source.

Until the MUD tracks the source of the damage to a PC, any blanket solution affecting the regeneration rate of health will be difficult to accept.  Here are a few of the problems with someone losing 60 health:

-Lost health by slow acting burn poison.
-Lost health by training with blunt sparring weapons.
-Lost health by sharp live weapons.
-Lost health by falling.
-Lost health by magickal fire/lightning/health draining
-Lost health by torture.
-Lost health by animal bite.
-Lost health by animal venom.

The problem is the code cannot differentiate between sources of damage and everyone who loses 60% of their health "does not look well" and is "bleeding heavily" as a standard room description.  They may have taken 30 blunt strikes to armor and have broken ribs, internal bleeding, blunt head trauma, etc...and still be "bleeding heavily".

This is where playability comes in as an arguement.  This topic wouldn't be coming up unless someone thought it was a big problem.  And since we're selfish and arrogant creatures, we probably aren't talking about our own RP, but that of another player who's character was hurt and suddenly acting fine within a few game hours.  We've all seen it.

The half-giant hits inflicts a grevious wound to the man's head.
The man flees.
The man says, "I'm gonna get some rest."
The man leaves.
The man returns.
The original poster says, "Why are you back here?"
The man says, "I slept an hour and I'm better.  I feel fine."

I highly doubt any of us want to be forced to RP out wounds.  We want the choice of doing so, and rightly so.  Adding some kind of middle layer of healing would bring depth and some accountability to the game.

I'd second the motion of allowing 60% regen to happen normally (while awake or asleep) while requiring 61+% damage to require SOME form of treatment by a "physician" skill be that bandage or a new idea.  It would be even cooler if the source of damage was factored into the mix (i.e. poison, magick, weapon, animal) which would effect the tool to be used.

-LoD

[Cenghiz]

I would love to have -in the least- a virtual physician NPC in Tuluk in a central place.. Like a rugged veteran in Tembo's Tooth.. So we can at least pay him the price, get healed virtually and then go home and 'sleep it off'.

[Halaster]

Just my opinion, but I think the biggest reason we haven't gotten more "gritty" and "realistic" is for playability sake more than anything.  I'd rather see people interacting, doing things, driving plots - whatever - and not just laying around having to heal up.  Let's face it, who wants to spend 2 hours doing nothing while you heal?

Having said that, I think LoD put it well in that we currently have the option of roleplaying wounds if we choose.  If you think you've healed up too fast, that's fine, you can play out an injury that lasts longer than it is.  I'd personally rather let people have that option as opposed to force in on them.

Again, as LoD says, to make this really work well, we'd have to do a lot more, such as damage type.  While I think anyone would love to see it - that sure would be one serious-big project...