Descriptions

[skeetdaddle]

Okay....a simple request. I am not a fast reader. Which, trust me, makes this game difficult enought to try and follow at times, (like when traveling with four or five other people who are all babblin' at eachother). Therefore, I am hoping as a small courtesy to me and others who aren't speed readers, would those of you with the ridiculously long novelette-style descriptions, please consider tapering them down a bit with your next character? I like nifty little details as much as the next person, but could we find a way to include maybe a few particularly outstanding features without writing a freakin' book? Eh? It's just a request. Thanks.

[moab]

No.

Not that I currently have one.

Should I slow down because you can't read quickly?

No.

What a silly post.

[LoD]

Okay....a simple request. I am not a fast reader. Which, trust me, makes this game difficult enought to try and follow at times, (like when traveling with four or five other people who are all babblin' at eachother). Therefore, I am hoping as a small courtesy to me and others who aren't speed readers, would those of you with the ridiculously long novelette-style descriptions, please consider tapering them down a bit with your next character? I like nifty little details as much as the next person, but could we find a way to include maybe a few particularly outstanding features without writing a freakin' book? Eh? It's just a request. Thanks.

If you're having trouble reading the descriptions before the screen begins to scroll, I sometimes copy and paste the desc to notepad so I can read it later.  Also, why would you want to "dumb down" the environment instead of improving your ability to read quickly?  If you just want people to lessen the volume of their description because you don't "want" to read as many lines, then that's just selfish and, as Moab put, silly.

-LoD

[Bestatte]

Although, if you are the player who writes a 15-line main description, it would be kind and considerate of you to give the reader who "looks" a few seconds to read it before waltzing away or doing something significant.

A templar who looks at someone he suspects of something, needs that few seconds to decide "yep he's the one" or "nope not the guy." If he's looking for a hairlip, and you've hidden it in the second half of the 9th sentence of your 20-sentence description, it'll take him a few seconds to get there. If you don't give him that moment to read that you have a hairlip, you're depriving yourself and the templar (and anyone else present) the opportunity for roleplay. Descriptions are meant to be read, but not offline when the player isn't inundated by roleplay. They're meant to be read during the roleplay. If your description is -that- long, or includes words that most people would need to do a dictionary search on, then it seems to me as though maybe you should reconsider the reason for including those words, or making such a long description.

[LauraMars]

Oh dear, probably not.  That's what makes it fun to most of us.  If you are having trouble, I'll show you a trick.

Here's a long description I wrote for another mud a while ago.  And uh, yes, she's unnaturally pretty. Not the point.

This diminutive young woman stands just a touch over five feet tall.  Her pale, oval face bears features in perfect proportion with each other. A slender nose is perched above gently curving lips, which slip naturally upwards towards round cheeks softly flushed with the palest shade of pink.  Round, gleaming ringlets of varying lengths are piled artfully atop her head, the spirals falling down to brush the nape of her neck.  The shining silver color of her hair is bestowed upon those blessed with long life, but her alabaster features and form are youthful and glowing, and her fathomless green eyes gaze upon the world with unsurprised dignity. Though the flesh everywhere on her body is unmarred and soft, a long, jagged scar runs down the length of her left arm. Visible only when uncovered, the ugly twists of this scar splits the youthful flesh in a slashed trail of dead white flesh.

When you type "look pc," start skimming it fast.  Train your eye to pick out words relating to size, hair color, eye color, and anything unusual like scar or tattoo (though of course on this mud, you can have your tattoos and scars coded)  If a feature in a "novellette" main description is very important, the person will have likely spent a long while describing it, as I did with the scar above. Don't pay too much attention to the adjectives.  Just learn to pick out words from a bunch.

You could even set up triggers in your mud client if you want, (I'm not sure which one you use but many have some kind of trigger capability)  telling it to pick out words like common colors, hair and eyes and color them or bold them.  In fact, this might be a good idea for a lot of things.  Use your imagination and decide what you'd like to know, then start looking for those things as you read.  

Remember that these common words will likely be in the short description as well, which you should not completely disregard.

Ignore words like "and", "the" and "a" for the most part.  They're shorter than most words, so they're easier to skip over.

Also, if you're interacting with the person, and you're waiting for them to reply, type "look pc" and use your time wisely getting a mental image.

Please pm me if you'd like any more help.  I know it can be a little overwhelming how fast things go, and some of the more baroque long descriptions take a few rereadings no matter who you are.

[Vesperas]

I really do have to agree with this post.

While I take advantage of the fact that Arm's players all work together to create an in-depth atmosphere where I am free to get as descriptive as I like, going into minute details about mostly unnoticeable features on your character's body (describing each and every fiber of every muscle) is pointless.

I am DEFINITELY not a speed-reader, because I automatically use punctuation when I read (periods cause a full stop, and commas a pause and change of direction).  This is something I've always done, and have no intentions of rewiring my brain to do otherwise to keep up with people who try to write 40-line descriptions.  Its actually rather inconsiderate, in the way that you wouldn't expect a handicapped person to park on the far side of the parking lot just so you can get next to the door and be comfortable with your OWN location.

I've seen some BEAUTIFUL descriptions.  The kind that makes you feel sort of inferior in writing.  But every single one of them was of medium length, 7-12ish lines.  There have been some nice ones that stretched to 15.  But usually, anything longer than that, I don't bother to read, and you appear as a defragmented blob in my imagination when I RP with you.

1.  If you are a dwarf, don't go into how short, bald, or muscley you are (unless you are far beyond or far short of the norm).

2.  If you are an elf, you don't need to re-state in your description that you are tall (unless you are far beyond or far short of the norm).  In fact.. I am kinda sick of seeing PCs that are "very tall," even for an elf.

[Vesperas]

First off, sorry for the second post, but it seems we're all writing to the same thread at the same time.

Oh dear, probably not.  That's what makes it fun to most of us.  If you are having trouble, I'll show you a trick.

Here's a long description I wrote for another mud a while ago.  And uh, yes, she's unnaturally pretty. Not the point.

When you type "look pc," start skimming it fast.  Train your eye to pick out words relating to size, hair color, eye color, and anything unusual like scar or tattoo (though of course on this mud, you can have your tattoos and scars coded)  If a feature in a "novellette" main description is very important, the person will have likely spent a long while describing it, as I did with the scar above. Don't pay too much attention to the adjectives.  Just learn to pick out words from a bunch.

The problem with this is when people delve WAY too deeply into one tiny feature (particularly one that would normally remain hidden under clothing, or would be unnoticable).

I've seen a desc that went on for five freaking lines about the color of the character's eyes, without once actually saying the words "color," "eyes," "irises," or even a damn color... yet at the same time, it was supposed to be a distinguishing feature.

There is creative and skilled writing, but at some point many Armageddon folks cross the line and enter the realm of stupidity, just to see how many ways they can describe one feature.

[Puppet]

There is creative and skilled writing, but at some point many Armageddon folks cross the line and enter the realm of stupidity, just to see how many ways they can describe one feature.

I think this is a little harsh and unnecessary. Most people like to be unique, and I really don't think that someone using a thesaurus to get a few more interesting terms in their description or someone describing detail in a way they like should be referred to as "entering the realm of stupidity".

I agree that sometimes it can be excessive, but if they like it than who am I to judge?

[moab]

A little harsh, Puppet?  Come on, Vesperas and Skeetdaddle are missing the point.

This is a text-based game.
More text = good.
Less text = bad.

If you want lack of detail, fire up a default copy of circleMud and invite some of the illiterati over to join you in your game.

Me - I like thick novels, detailed pcs, equipment with detailed descriptions...I like edescs (like looking at something described in a room description like a tapestry and getting some more text back from looking at it) and all sorts of stuff.

The moment we start saying "less detail" we have to ask ourselves why we are playing a text-based games.

Would you tell a graphical game designer to tone down the graphics?
No.

[Vesperas]

No offense, but I think you're a little off your rocker if you think that this being a text-based game means we need to write things as horribly long as possible.

What I stated was not harsh.  There are some general, unwritten rules that go along with good writing:

1.  Avoid circular reasoning, or "deadwood."  Say it once, not twice.

2.  If your audience has to go get a dictionary to look it up, don't use it.  While it may be entertaining for you and few others who share your education, if there is a signicant ratio of people out there reading your description and not understanding the words you are using, it's counter-productive to the environment.  

3.  Using a thesaurus is GREAT.  Power to those who do it.  However, see reason 1.  You just don't need to describe your hair color as black, ebon, inky, jet, and coal all in the same go.

4.   There IS a such thing as "too long," just as there is a such thing as "too short."  If someone has to scroll the screen and set aside a full two minutes to read your description, it's too long.

5.   Avoid EXTREMELY fancy crap.  While it's great that you are showing your writing talent, if I read a sentence in your description, and understand all the words, but am nonetheless forced to go "What the fuck?" because I havn't a clue as to what you are talking about, you need to de-elevate your language.

6.  Yes, this is a text-based game.  But it is also a LIVE REAL-TIME game.  Not a novel.  You are DOING what you write at the moment you write it.  I don't want to have to RP for five minutes and then OOC "Okay guys!  I'm gonna sit here and now replay everything we did so I can visualize it," because then that utterly destroys the point in me roleplaying.

I like novels, descriptive items, and 'edescs' just as much as you do.  I love getting into my scene--I build everything I read visually in my brain as I go along.  

I am not "missing the point."  I get your point loud and clear.  I just don't think it is a selfish request to ask someone to take into consideration their AUDIENCE.


EDITED TO ADD:

In answer to whether or not I would ask a graphical game designer to tone down the graphics:  Yes.  Yes I would, if it made playing the game unenjoyable.  While not the case in text-based games (where we are testing the processing speeds of our minds, which we are born with and is NOT upgradeable), if your crappy graphics game lags on my 1200-dollar computer, don't count on getting my money.

[Puppet]

What's wrong with having to look up a word in the dictionary? I have to do that pretty regularly. I'm glad not everyone writes simplistic and concise descriptions. Vocabulary is a WONDERFUL tool, why shouldn't we add to it and use it?

Also, your idea of "good writing" isn't universal, I'm afraid. I don't think catering to an audience that doesn't know what color amarinthine is, is always a good thing. Use the word, let people look it up, and then everyone is back on the same level. Why keep the bar low? Hell, if all authors were required to use language and vocabulary that EVERYONE would understand, we'd have a whole lot of boring books that were bland and unimaginative.

If you don't like the long descriptions then just don't read them. Look at the equipment and skim a few keywords and move on, but don't tell people that they should cater their preferred style of writing and describing their character to your whims.

[Vesperas]

Are YOU not trying to force YOUR ideals on the rest of the MUD, by assuming they should just skip out on fully enjoying the game because you want to use a word nobody in their right mind would know (and few would remember)?  Hell, if you are going to do that, the least you could do is put your "skill" to use and add in context clues.  

As for whether or not my rules are "universal," well, they generally are.  If you go pick up a decent, well-respected writing manual, you will see some form or another of what I stated given.  This is, of course, assuming that we are all writing fictional English.

If your profession is 'writer', you write for your selected target audience, not for yourself (unless you are a member of your audience).  Writing for yourself simply does not sell.  Besides, if you want to use real books as examples, I'll chance to point out that even Tolkien was not nearly as esoteric as some of you attempt to be, and I consider him to be the God of Long-Windedness.  His books, atleast, are written on a level that is understandable for most people with a high school education.

[WarriorPoet]

Long descriptions are good. Very good. Noone should be forced to shorten their descs because others have problems with it. I actually have a giant problem with 3-line 'bare bones' descriptions. If you need a moment to read a desc, like someone said before, cut and paste it. Or just skim at first and then take another look when the scene calms down.

That said, I also dislike it when people bust out thesaurus.com and try to find the most obscure substitute for 'white' they can. Uniquely descriptive words are good. Obscure words from a dead language are not. What was it? The podgy, dappled-dickens welp? Yeah...

And 'visage'. I hate this word.

-WP

[LoD]

No offense, but I think you're a little off your rocker if you think that this being a text-based game means we need to write things as horribly long as possible.

Preceding an insult with "No offense" doesn't make it any less intentional.

I was unable to find "...need to write things as horribly long as possible." in moab's description of what makes a good text based game.  I'm sure that even he has a definition of "too much" with regards to descriptions, but since neither you nor the OP make any suggestions for what is too long, and what is too short, then he can only assume he's lumped in with anyone that writes descriptions over 7 lines.

2.  If your audience has to go get a dictionary to look it up, don't use it.  While it may be entertaining for you and few others who share your education, if there is a signicant ratio of people out there reading your description and not understanding the words you are using, it's counter-productive to the environment.

Our "audience" is comprised of ages 15 - 40+ and I would be wary of assuming the average player's reading level and vocabulary.  While I agree that finding the most obscure word possible to fit a sentence for the sake of being unique isn't necessary, I would much rather have a few players increase their vocabulary than a few players simplify their writing.

5.   Avoid EXTREMELY fancy crap.  While it's great that you are showing your writing talent, if I read a sentence in your description, and understand all the words, but am nonetheless forced to go "What the fuck?" because I havn't a clue as to what you are talking about, you need to de-elevate your language.

If your reaction to reading a sentence is "What the fuck?" then I don't think the problem is with the author.  Why should someone have to de-elevate their language when you can elevate yours.  I imagine that you're addressing a few "extreme" examples here since I can't remember seeing a description to which I had a similar reaction as you in your example.

I am not "missing the point."  I get your point loud and clear.  I just don't think it is a selfish request to ask someone to take into consideration their AUDIENCE.

As mentioned above, our audience is varied in age, location, education and a thousand other factors, and I would see us strive to raise the bar rather than drop it with regard to reading comprehension and vocabulary.

I would be more sympathetic toward the OP and his support's plight if you were forced to read someone's description before a scene could progress, but that isn't the case.  Some people enjoy making good use of descriptions, room and player alike, to incorporate into their RP, but it isn't necessary.

The theme of both requests to shorten, lessen or simplify descriptions in Armageddon implies a laziness and selfishness that I find disappointing.  If you see a word you don't know, wouldn't you like to learn what it means and be the smarter for it?  Who wants to wallow in their own ignorance?  I've yet to see any RP or description completely transcending the average realm of comprehension that would allow me to support the OP's main arguement.

-LoD

P.S. Well, maybe Clegane when he's feeling frisky.

[jhunter]

*shrug*


I do feel that some people do it with the intentions of making it harder to read their desc before they bolt away quickly. These are usually the same people that try and fill every wear location they can with something so that their main desc scrolls right past you if you look at them.

To those people, you are a lame twinks and I hate you.

To those who happened to write a longer desc for the sake of really painting the picture of their pc, nice work. I've seen some really beautiful descriptions.

I do agree, as someone else said, that if you have written a long main desc you should give others the courtesy of enough time to read it when they look at you before bolting away or something.

[Intrepid]

I have to agree with LoD.  Don't make yourself a candidate for
mediocrity or, worse yet, try to make others so.  If a person is obviously
misusing a word, email the imms to talk to them.  If you find a word that
you don't recognize, look it up.  Why stop learning?

[Vesperas]

To clarify, and these are my own personal measurements (just my opinion):

Too short:  Anything less than 6 lines.

Too long:  Anything in excess of 20 lines.  There are exceptions, but for the most part, this holds true when the writer is just being flowery and isn't really describing anything anymore.

Too esoteric:  One or two words that I don't know is fine, particularly if you provide context clues in your desc OR in your RP.  (Which is a good thing to do anyway, as it adds variation)  However, if you are using more than just a couple "heightened" words that I would have to look up, you are being silly, and writing for only a few readers.  

Another point -- while education is fine and dandy, what is the point in learning a word that you would never, ever use yourself, in every-day speech, political or business argument, or writing (assuming I did that for any place other than Armageddon)?  It would be forgotten within a week.

And yes, by "extremely fancy crap," I meant the 'extreme' cases.  If it takes more than 5 levels to graph, you are being a tiny bit excessive.

[Seeker]

I don't think I have ever seen a character with ldesc more than twenty lines long with more than two words that I had never seen before.

Ever.


Seeker

[amoeba]

If I remember correctly, the maximim character limit for the description is 1199 characters.  15 lines X 80 characters = 1200 characters.  The longest possible length is 15 lines.

[Cale_Knight]

This is a text-based game.
More text = good.
Less text = bad.

No. You're wrong. That's like saying a football is better if there are two hundred players on the field, or a soup will taste better if you can shove fifteen thousand ingredients into the pot.

When you're writing on Armageddon, you should only have a single goal in mind; to provide a clear description of what you're doing. Flowery, grammatical masturbation is just a smoke-screen disguising an inability to convey what you're actually doing.

There is nothing wrong with simplicity. It's preferable! It facilitates clear writing and clear understanding! Don't fall into the eighth-grade way of thinking that a high word count directly equates to quality.

[Intrepid]

Actually, V...learning the word is a precursor to using it more often.  And
I hate to say it, but many of us have varying levels of education in college
and beyond whose education revolves around the technical and has
nothing to do with the literary.  As such, there is no way to guess the
education level, not even among the most educated.  I know quite a few
engineers with atrocious grammar, spelling and vocabulary.  There's no
reason why any Arm player has to secondguess the education level of
the entire playerbase.

And as Seeker said, I've never seen a desc in my entire time playing
here that had more than two words that I needed to look up...but when I
do see said word, I look it up.

[Vesperas]

If I remember correctly, the maximim character limit for the description is 1199 characters.  15 lines X 80 characters = 1200 characters.  The longest possible length is 15 lines.

Assuming you use all 80 characters per line.  Some clients will "squish" things, but recently I've taken up to using Pueblo with a size 10 font, and that hasn't been a problem.

There is nothing wrong with simplicity. It's preferable! It facilitates clear writing and clear understanding! Don't fall into the eighth-grade way of thinking that a high word count directly equates to quality.

Somebody finally says it in a way I wasn't able to.

Edited to reply to Intrepid:

Naturally, but I think its safe to assume that MOST players on Armageddon (those who are going to be playing extensively) have atleast an average ability with reading.  That said, it is HARDER to climb up a hill than go down it -- expecting people to educate themselves to your literary level just so they can RP with you (and this goes beyond descriptions, and touches on the few and the proud who make their emotes -excessively- flowery) is just about as selfish to us (meaning the people of average intelligence) as it is for us to ask you not to try to write a book.

Edited again to note that I typo too much.

[Vanth]

Let's keep it civil, please.

You can state your opinions, or even disagree with one another, without saying or suggesting that the other person is stupid, crazy, twinkish, etc. etc.

The official staff stance as I understand it is this:
Descriptions should be between 4 and 15 lines in length.
You must use vocabulary that can be found in a dictionary.

Those are the facts.  Everything else is opinion.  Please respect others' right to their own opinion.

[bloodfromstone]

This thread is a little too flammatory for me, but I thought I'd stick my head in just to toss an agreement to Cale_Knight. More is not better in writing. It's a lesson a lot of people overlook, but there is no need to say in 30 words what could have been as well told in 10.

That aside, c'mon, people. Don't we all play this game to have fun together, regardless of stylistic differences? I'm always astounded by how quickly people resort to insulting each other, talking down to each other, and saying each others' opinions are useless.

[Intrepid]

No one ever stops learning, V.  There's nothing wrong with being faced
with a word you have to look up in a text based game, as long as said
word is being used correctly.  It's not selfish; each player has a different
vocabulary, so trying to guess the lowest common denominator would be
impossible.  And as Vanth has stated, there is no reason to get upset
about this.  The standards the imms present for descriptions are obviously
not going anywhere.

[jhunter]

I really must've missed something. I don't see where anyone was being insulting or flaming. Anyone care to point it out in quote for me? I'm just wondering if I missed it or if there is something considered flaming or insulting that I hadn't when I read it.

[Intrepid]

Just a bit of name-calling in the thread, J.

[amoeba]

Another arguement for keeping things -relativly- short has to do wih the way we visually process text online.  A long description can be diffucult to read.  

Let me give an example, I'll use Vanth's post for this.

Formated nice and neatly for viewing online:

Let's keep it civil, please.

You can state your opinions, or even disagree with one another, without saying or suggesting that the other person is stupid, crazy, twinkish, etc. etc.

The official staff stance as I understand it is this:
Descriptions should be between 4 and 15 lines in length.
You must use vocabulary that can be found in a dictionary.

Those are the facts. Everything else is opinion. Please respect others' right to their own opinion.

Formated the way a long description would be:

Let's keep it civil, please. You can state your opinions, or even disagree with one another, without saying or suggesting that the other person is stupid, crazy, twinkish, etc. etc.The official staff stance as I understand it is this: Descriptions should be between 4 and 15 lines in length.You must use vocabulary that can be found in a dictionary.Those are the facts. Everything else is opinion. Please respect others' right to their own opinion.

The longer the description, the more work it takes to read it in this format.  Their is nothing much that can be done about it, but this is one of the reasons I keep my description relativly short.  The background is another story.  I would love to see the maximum length doubled.

[jhunter]

I'd like to see the max chars on the background lengthened too. I've had to mail in my backgrounds because I couldn't put them in myself before.

[Intrepid]

Amen to that.  I'd love a longer background buffer.

[Vesperas]

I'll agree to that as well.  ^.-

[moab]

I'll agree to this:  good writing is better than bad writing.  
Long is sometimes good.  Short is sometimes good.

To ask someone to follow your (joe player's) idea of what good writing is lame.

Trusting the Imms to handle approval of main descs and control text based descriptions of rooms, npcs and objects in game is best.

Please don't mistake my good = more bad = less as meaning more lines of writing.  I meant more good = more description of things which usually leads to more text.

However, a four word emote can reveal a whole lot about a character.  A simply worded main desc can be a Hemingway-esque bit of art.

It really is what suits the character.

I do not like, myself, a reliance on "unique" short desc which end up - to my mind's eye - making people look funny.  I like the grit and dirt and the joe commoner thing.  Five dollar words fit better in the main description, IMO.

[Bestatte]

I used to see words in descriptions that weren't in the dictionary, or had meanings completely unrelated to whatever the player was trying to convey. Sometimes they were misspellings, sometimes homonyms, sometimes typos. A mistyped "too" as "two" is easily understood, easy to figure out that they mean "two tattooes on his wrist" and not "too tattooes" on his wrist.

But then there are the folks who go out of their way to find an interesting word, misspell it, and it isn't caught by the staff (probably because it's SO obscure or underused in modern writing that it didn't occur to them to even check it - understandable when you're dealing with a dozen apps in the queue). One I will never forget was this character who had the word "exsanguinous" in his sdesc.

I figured it had something to do with wine, because it sounded a little like sangria. But then I remembered (vaguely) that it also had something to do with blood. So I looked it up in the dictionary. No such word, it doesn't exist. Turned out, it was misspelled. It was also an improper use of the word. Exsanguious (without the second n, it doesn't exist in that word) means "lacking red blood cells, as in an ant." So unless the guy literally had no red blood cells, he used the wrong word to describe his character. Since he was either a human or a half-elf (I don't remember which, it was one of the two), I'm guessing he meant to imply that his character was very pale, or had no redness to his pigmentation. There's a HUGE difference between a person who has no red blood cells, and a person with pale, or non-reddened skin.

The point is, you're dealing with readers who just might need to look something up in the dictionary. That's all well and good, but if a templar walks in and the exsanguinous guy just ran out, and the templar asks you to describe him, by the time you finally figure out what the hell that word is so you can give a general description, the templar has already fined you half your sids for being too slow to answer.

You also have to remember that a rather large part of the playerbase does -not- speak english as their first language. Exsanguious (using the same example) is latin-based, and we have a boatload of folks from countries that don't speak any of the latin languages as their first language (Turkey, Israel, and the Slavic countries come to mind). Expecting them to look up obscure words, when they're already struggling to keep up (and doing a damned good job of it from what I recall), is asking a little too much, in my opinion.