Bandaging

[Salt Merchant]

This skill doesn't make sense in the way it is currently implemented.

Doing active damage to oneself with a bandage isn't realistic. The only instance I can see a bandage worsening a wound is if an object is embedded in it and the bandage is pulled tightly over that that object, instead of bandaging around it.

A clumsily bandaged wound might prevent or slow healing, if it's holding the edges of a gash apart, but it would not inflict further trauma on the patient.

Really, the purposes of bandages are (1) to stop bleeding, (2) to protect the wound from exogenous elements which could lead to infection, and (3) to close it properly to allow it to heal well.

As far as I know, the only time bleeding is simulated in Arm is when someone reaches negative hitpoints. So, someone with a poor skill level might not be able to stem the bleeding at all. Someone with a fair skill level could stem it after a few tries (adding two or three hp a try). Someone proficient at bandaging maybe could do it in one or two.

And that's it. Infection isn't implemented in Arm, so bandaging can't be coded to help. And characters already heal too fast relative to how people assert they should deal with their wounds.

Why are bandages better than strips of clothing in real life? Because they're generally kept clean (maybe even bacterial resistant), they're made of a certain material and are generally of a handy size. That's it, nothing magical about them. So in an emergency situation, a skilled medic could get by without one specifically prepared, either by using a strip of material ripped from a shirt, or by directly applying pressure with his hands. The key is to give the blood in the wound time to congeal and stop further flow.

Then there's the issue of bandaging and poisoning, but it can be left for another discussion.

Any thoughts, anyone?

[Larrath]

Bandages are strips of cloth, sometimes with sap or other things to make them more effective.  Just having them appropriately sized and not having any tears makes them more useful as bandages than most shirt scraps - however, those can also be used as bandages, I believe.

Now, there are no first aid kits on Zalanthas, and most wounds people would take bandages to are pretty damn serious.  I think that taking a small hp penalty for someone just messing around with a gaping wound that nearly cost you the use of your left arm (just to represent the pain) can be realistic enough.  It also prevents people spam-bandaging by giving them something to worry about.

Think about someone breaking an arm and having someone fix it the wrong way, bandaging isn't usually just about applying a band-aid.

Also keep in mind that medical knowledge, even with the most skilled physicians, is very limited.

[Rindan]

I know people are going to chime in and try and justify the way bandaging works, but there really isn't any justification.  It is an old code that has probably been around close to as long as the MUD has.  The way bandaging works makes very little sense.  I imagine that the reason why bandaging works the way it works isn't because it is the way that bandaging should be represented, but purely because no one has taken it up as a project.  It is a little used skill with only marginal utility.  There are a lot of more interesting projects to work on, which I imagine is the biggest reason why bandaging is the way that it is.

[jhunter]

I know people are going to chime in and try and justify the way bandaging works, but there really isn't any justification.  It is an old code that has probably been around close to as long as the MUD has.  The way bandaging works makes very little sense.  I imagine that the reason why bandaging works the way it works isn't because it is the way that bandaging should be represented, but purely because no one has taken it up as a project.  It is a little used skill with only marginal utility.  There are a lot of more interesting projects to work on, which I imagine is the biggest reason why bandaging is the way that it is.

Agreed.

[Salt Merchant]

most wounds people would take bandages to are pretty damn serious.  I think that taking a small hp penalty for someone just messing around with a gaping wound that nearly cost you the use of your left arm (just to represent the pain) can be realistic enough.  It also prevents people spam-bandaging by giving them something to worry about.

You're not messing around. You're simply winding the bandage around and around the wounded portion of the anatomy. It's virtually idiot proof.

Once you start to becoming more proficient, you can learn how to hold the wound closed for the first loops and keep the bandage tight without making it too tight. But you're not going to kill someone with a bandage (unless you wrap it around their throat).

As for spam bandaging (by which I assume you mean very rapid use of the bandage command without roleplay), how is this any different than, for example, spam stealing? Other than that in this case, you're losing 'sid rather than gaining some, given that bandages cost a fair amount.

I'm not sure where you'd spam bandage anyhow, since fighting prevents bandaging and in the system I propose above, it would only work on the unconscious. Just add in a bandage 'after' delay.

Think about someone breaking an arm and having someone fix it the wrong way, bandaging isn't usually just about applying a band-aid.

Well, in Arm, damage is non-specific. You as a player basically have to decide to play it that your character has a broken whatever. In which case a splint is what is required, not a bandage. Broken bones are not implemented, and neither are splints.

Also keep in mind that medical knowledge, even with the most skilled physicians, is very limited.

If you take a course in first aid, you will emerge fairly proficient at bandaging (at least a moderate skill level), and all without a knowledge of the cardiovascular system, blood composition, stress response and the rest of it.

[Delirium]

a) There are splints that can be used as bandages in-game, along with many other props like poultices, vials, tablets, etc;

b) You aren't going to kill someone with a bandage unless they are mortally wounded, in which case it makes sense that if you mishandle their wound they could die from it; you will notice that sometimes the code tells you that you are unable to tend their wounds and that is because you still suck and might kill them with your bumbling attempts;

c) You WILL get good at it.  It will also happen eventually, with patience and practice, over a long period of time.  You don't get to be a master physician in a day or even a month;

d) "Bandaging" as a skill covers everything that involves tending the wound, healing the sickness or curing the disease, not ONLY the act of actually bandaging an ouchie.  Considering that, I would move for the skill to be re-named "healing", since the broader category makes more sense;

e) Yes, it is overly simplistic, I agree.  However, it is very playable, and makes a lot of sense if you think about it.  Tending a wound correctly and without causing more harm to the patient involves a lot more than "wrapping some cloth around" it, as that is rarely the only thing you should be doing to fix somebody up;

f) You can use your shirt (or anything of cloth) to bandage someone up.  Take it off and rip it up via the 'salvage' command.  If you don't want to ruin your pretty shirt to save your buddy's life, I guess you didn't really want to save them;

g) I would not disagree with a more complicated system put in but I do disagree with the sentiment that it is necessary; this system, while simple, works.  Yes Rindan, I DEFY YOU!  (Though I also agree with you to a limited extent.)

[amoeba]

d) "Bandaging" as a skill covers everything that involves tending the wound, healing the sickness or curing the disease, not ONLY the act of actually bandaging an ouchie; considering that I would move for the skill to be re-named "healing", since the broader category makes more sense,

I would like to see it renamed healing, and widen the type of 'props' that could be used.  I would also like to see, although I'm not sure how to have it implemented, some longer term injuries that would either take a very long time to run thier course, or could be mitigated with the help of a good physcian, or cured entirely via a vivudians help.  I would like the physician sub-gulld to actually be useful, and I also like the confilct of fearing a magicker, but needing to use that magicker sometimes, it could lead to some very interesting roleplay.

[Dalmeth]

My personal gripe about bandaging is that the current fail penalty is just too much.  If I get my character down to the point where he can be bandaged, I can kill him in about 5-6 failed newbie ranger bandaging attempts.  That's nothing to speak of more serious wounds.

[Delirium]

My personal gripe about bandaging is that the current fail penalty is just too much.  If I get my character down to the point where he can be bandaged, I can kill him in about 5-6 failed newbie ranger bandaging attempts.  That's nothing to speak of more serious wounds.

That is a popular and incorrect misconception.  A newbie bandager attempting to bandage you can't kill you because he will worsen the wound to a point where he will be unable, via the code, to deal with it any longer.

In roleplaying terms, that is simply that, instead of stemming the bleeding, closing the wound, or setting the bone, he has instead made it worse or not improved it at all, and finds himself without the knowledge or ability to fix you.

[moab]

If the bandaging was simply winding the bandage around the wound, _everyone_ would have the skill.

Since this is not the case, it is likely safe to assume that something more than "just applying the bandage" is going on.

That "something else" done incorrectly is causing the damage.

[My 2 sids]

Alright, according to the American Red Cross First Aid and Safety book (meeting ECC 2000 guidelines and costing 45 bucks in non-returnable book fees ;-)) roller bandages (the kind used in game which is cloth wound around the wound) are called pressure bandages because instead of simply covering up a cut, it's actually applying pressure to the wounded area.  It IS possible to do damage if the bandage is done improperly.  The damage occurs when the bandage is placed too tightly around the area, blocking blood flow severely enough to cause pain and tissue damage.  

As far as how to make the skill more realistic, I'd implement the following:

Vary the damage penalty for failed attempts:  for those who have a bit of practice with the skill  (or for patents that aren't too hurt) have the affect be purely role-play and not hit-point related.  For those with hardly any skill (or no skill) trying to perform major bandaging (a lot of lost hit points) have the stamina or max hit point levels drop for a bit.  This would represent the amount of long-lasting damage to a person (a bone that has been improperly set, nerve damage, etc).  The demand for a highly skilled bandage person would rise dramatically when the stakes are so high.

How bandages are sold:  One thing that I'd like to see would be bandages that are based more like the food code.  I think realistically what one would purchase wouldn't be individual bandages but a length of cloth; it would make sense than that each attempt to bandage would use up (permanently) X amount of cloth.  So instead of buying one bandage that can be used only once or indefinitely, a bandage might last five or so attempts before being used up.  A person skilled in bandage making could create a lot more bandages from cloth than someone who would waste material because of mistakes in cutting.

Coded props:  I think to have more and more widely available props like splints or patches or even the use of water or soap (to clean the wound) should help one's chances of a successful bandage.  

Practice:  I'd like to see people w/o wounds or minor wounds be able to practice bandaging.  I think bandages should work like ropes, that role-play is required.  I think these two things would help against spamming the skill and also vary PC's ability enough to where those who take bandaging seriously have a lot more potential than anyone who happens to live long enough.

[My 2 sids]

As far as the philosophy behind the skill I agree we should have a better definition and explanation of the skill.  1st, I think we have to gain a better (more accepted) understanding of how advanced the population would be in game.  Granted I don't think they would have anywhere near modern hospitals; but I do think we sometimes underestimate how advanced technology and medically the culture would have advanced.

First, we must understand the cultures in game are neither dumb nor simple.  The population knows enough to form elaborate political hierarchies,  they know enough about science to understand the basics of breeding, and other subjects have developed into very detailed and elaborate skills (such as weapon making, cooking, clothing, etc).

We must also understand that one of the biggest hindrances in modern medicine came from religion.  In game there would be less of a stigma concerning oh, say, looking at corpses to see anatomy or devotion to prayer to heal the sick.  The reluctance to rely on the supernatural would mean the culture in game would rely heavily on their thinking abilities and inventions to further medical knowledge.

Further, the age of the culture in game would suggest they have both the background and ability to greatly further their understanding and abilities.  Over the centuries there have been marked developments in weapons, armor, and um... affects of plants/drugs?  Necessity is the mother of invention and as we all know most major medical developments are a direct result of war and death.  Having an ample supply of death I think the culture would continue to strive greatly for ways to heal people.  

Finally, although most would not, there are enough individuals in the culture that would have the recourses (time and wealth being the greatest) to be able to continuously invent, discover, and experiment.

[Twilight]

You can only even start to try to bandage someone via the code when you hit X% of your hitpoints.  This is not a scratch on your finger.  You are at a point where in the modern world, you would be undergoing surgery.  And thats the start.  At the other end of the spectrum, you are bandaging someone who is bleeding to death.  Think multiple stab wounds, or severed main artery.  This is not a gash on your arm because you fell.  This stuff is major wounds, the stuff you get highly trained, highly paid physicians to deal with in the real world.

And in game we are trying to use bandages to "cure" it.

I don't have any problem with bandage in game.  I think its realistic enough.  I think from a code standpoint it works.  And its not really that hard to learn in a non-twinkish way to get to a useful point.  And while the number of situations you might use it might be limited, when you do need it, it is literally a life saver.

[sarahjc]

Maybe I never had a problem with the bandage code because I never thought of it as putting a bandage on someone.  I've instead always thought of it as the process of healing someone, the final piece of that being covering the wound.  So while the skill calls for a bandage, it's really just a prop to get the skill working.

As many have already said. It is the process before wrapping the wound that is being failed, not the actual wrapping of a piece of cloth around a wound.

An idea that might be a cool concept for the Bandage code would be to have a few different healing props. More than what we have now.

Things like needles and thread should be coded for bandage use. Splints as well (if they are not). Also it would be neat if these things stuck around a while afterwards with a wear location echo, similar to perfumes and spices.

Also the more advanced a healing tool is, the harder it should be to use, and the more effective/detrimental it should be.

Examples could be:

Inventory:
A sharp bone needle and gut thread
A small cloth bandage

Bandage Tommy Needle Arm

Lag..

You successfully suture the wound. (increase health 15 points)

Bandage Tommy cloth arm

You easily wrap the wound. (increased health 5 points)


I think bandage works fine, but I also think it could be a whole lot better as far as props and RP outlets.

[Anonymous]

Here's what bothers me about the bandage skill.  If someone is mortally wounded they are better off if you don't try to wrap a bandage around their gushing neck wound.  That's the part that blows my mind because in reality anything that stops blood flow at that point can only help.

My idea would be to give everyone the blood_loss code and then make bandaging nearly idiot proof.  All of the sudden players with the physician subguild would be valuable to be brought along in hunts/war parties and not just consulted before hand for a collection of cures.

Not to mention that the resulting increase in bandage demand (since people would presumably be using them more often) would represent a drain on indy bank accounts which sometimes seem a bit too big.

[Anonymous]

I've instead always thought of it as the process of healing someone

That's a good point but the mechanic does not mesh with the mental image of wrapping a bandage around a wound.  Only a raving idiot could screw that up.

Let's say that blood_loss code was tossed into the mix as I suggested (presumptuous I know.)

Then you could have tiers of bandaging dependent on the tool you are using.

Using a Bandage: Guaranteed to stop blood loss.  No penalty for critical failure.  Big success nets the PC getting bandaged a healing of 1-5 HPs.

Using a needle and thread: Penalty for critical failure is a loss of 5-15 HPs for the PC being stitched.  Successes net the PC getting stitched 5-15 HPs healing.

In other words bandages would be for stabilizing people, stitching/splinting etc, would be for repairing/healing people.

[Dalmeth]

At that point when my character is good enough to stitch a wound, I'm just going to buy a needle and say I unraveled the bandage.

[jmordetsky]

I'm with CRW on this one. I don't like that you can kill someone by trying to bandage. Forget for a moment about realism and think about playability.

I mean, if I lay here and sleep, I'll get better. But if you try and bandage my wounds I die? How does that work?

[Delirium]

b) You aren't going to kill someone with a bandage unless they are mortally wounded, in which case it makes sense that if you mishandle their wound they could die from it;

Plus, you have to be very good to handle a mortally wounded person in the first place, which means that there is a fair chance you will succeed.  Perhaps a failure at very low levels of health could send someone into the mortally wounded state, but it won't outright KILL them.  I have a feeling I could repeat this until I'm blue in the fingers (this makes the third time) and people are still going to moan about dying to those evil bandage-wielding healers.

I'm not claiming the system is perfect but it is not as bad as some of you make it out to be.

[jmordetsky]

b) You aren't going to kill someone with a bandage unless they are mortally wounded, in which case it makes sense that if you mishandle their wound they could die from it;

Plus, you have to be very good to handle a mortally wounded person in the first place, which means that there is a fair chance you will succeed.  Perhaps a failure at very low levels of health could send someone into the mortally wounded state, but it won't outright KILL them.  I have a feeling I could repeat this until I'm blue in the fingers (this makes the third time) and people are still going to moan about dying to those evil bandage-wielding healers.

I'm not claiming the system is perfect but it is not as bad as some of you make it out to be.

Hmmm. Well.....*blush* considering I've never *actually* bandaged anyone...I'll need to differ to the experts. I made a pretty big assumption there.

(Unless of course you're wrong....in which case I stand by my fear mongering.)

[Twilight]

Like any other skill, the usefulness of bandage when you initially get it, and the usefulness when it is trained up, is dramatically different.  As it should be.

[Maybe42or54]

The bandaging skills sounds backwards to me.

When I tried it, the mud told me I had enough skill to bandage a mortally wounded person, but I didn't have enough skill to bandage someone in near perfect condition.

That never made sense, but alright.

[flurry]

Someone in near perfect condition doesn't need bandaging.   Your skill is irrelevant for those people.

[Maybe42or54]

You should still be able to bandage it in My opinion. Or change the message.

[Delirium]

What about "They don't seem to need bandaging" is misleading?

[flurry]

Maybe you should be able to bandage them.   The problem with that (and I think it's a big problem) is that you'd get people practicing bandage all the time in unrealistic ways.  Maybe I'm wrong about that - maybe it would even be better.  Could go either way I guess.  As it is now there are some annoying issues with practicing bandage (either people unrealistically letting themselves get injuired to the point where they can practice it, or people unrealistically refusing first aid because they're "fine").

I thought the message for trying to bandage people who aren't very hurt was something about them not needing to be bandaged?  I can't remember but it's different than the "you're not skilled enough..." one.

[Maybe42or54]

Last I checked, I got the "You are not skilled enough to bandage them." When they were in moderate condition.