Masks, Hoods, Wraps Etc

[jmordetsky]

It's been discussed. Masks and hoods should help to hide one's identity, but shouldn't completely mask it.

A mask or a facewrap removing one's mdesc has been deemed too much because you should be able to make out one's build, voice, eye color etc.

I'm behind that. However I was thinking, what if masks, hoods and wraps did something similar to the language code, in that they could hide some but not all of of the mdesc, based on how much of the person was covered by the item.

For example if my mdesc was:

This man is tall. He is handsome. He will mudsex you. He has a scar on his hand.

A hood might do something like:

This mxo is tulm. Hi is hqndsome. He wilx mxdsex you. Hx has a sxar xn his hxnd.

A wrap would be more severe:

This xxo is tuxm. Hi is hqndxome. He wxlx mxdsxx you. Hx hxs x sxar xn xxs hxnd.

A mask even more so:

Txis xxo is tuxm. Hi is xqndxome. xe wxlx mxdsxx you. Hx hxx x sxar xn xxs hxnd.


Thoughts?

[Hexxaex]

Seems like a neat idea, but if they have lines describing their bulging dwarf biceps and whip-thin legs, how would a mask, wrap, or hood hide that?  It would completely mess up the entire Mdesc, even if one line only was used to describe the face, and the rest of the build, skin-color, etc.

If a part of the mdesc was codedly sectioned off as something describing their face, sure, I think it would be a good idea.  Might go something like "[face]His eyes are blue.[/face]He has solid masses of muscle, and [face]a long nose sticks out from the middle of his visage[/face]."

How hard that would be to code is beyond me.

[Tamarin]

That's pretty cool.

[I]

Yea, neat idea.

[sarahjc]

I like it the way it is now. I think it should be up to the players to decide what they can and can't pick out of a description.

A long while back I had a PC that this hooded elf wanted to kill. Now beforehand, I met him a couple of times but he was always with a hood on. So, I looked at him and noticed he was not wearing gloves once. And in his main desc, he had milky skin or something and he also had long silvery hair. And maybe noticed what he had on his back and certainly what he wore.

Now even though this guy wayed me a bunch of times so I knew his short desc, I always played it out that the only thing I knew about him was that he was elf tall, had pale skin, and silver hair.

Did I know what he looked like? Yes. Did I know what his short desc was? Yes. But it was my personal choice not to use those things to hunt him down. I only went off what I could see of him.  Now, if I went by your method, I might not get that information, which would be silly.

[LoD]

The only way for this to work legitimitely would be for your body description to be different from your head description.  During the creation process it would prompt you to describe your body below the neck including feet, legs, waist, torso, shoulders, arms and hands.  After inputting that information, then it would prompt you for a description of your head, hair and features.

MAIN BODY DESC[/b]

Broad shoulders frame this man's heavy build.  Coppery skin marred with several old scars speaks of a long history with heavy labor and no small amount of fighting.  His arms are well built, and rough calluses layer his meaty palms.  Bowed legs and knobby knees give him a waddling gait.

HEAD DESC[/b]

Lockes of reddish brown hair tangle in a merciless territorial dispute atop this man's scalp.  A pair of dull brown eyes droop from beneath a pair of bushy brows.  Mashed and lumpy, his nose seems to have been introduced to more than one set of knuckles in its time.  A long scar on his lower lip worms its way toward a square chin.

So, the total regular description would be:

Broad shoulders frame this man's heavy build.  Coppery skin marred with several old scars speaks of a long history with heavy labor and no small amount of fighting.  His arms are well built, and rough calluses layer his meaty palms.  Bowed legs and knobby knees give him a waddling gait. Lockes of reddish brown hair tangle in a merciless territorial dispute atop this man's scalp.  A pair of dull brown eyes droop from beneath a pair of bushy brows.  Mashed and lumpy, his nose seems to have been introduced to more than one set of knuckles in its time.  A long scar on his  lower lip worms its way toward a square chin.

When wearing a mask:

Broad shoulders frame this man's heavy build.  Coppery skin marred with several old scars speaks of a long history with heavy labor and no small amount of fighting.  His arms are well built, and rough calluses layer his meaty palms.  Bowed legs and knobby knees give him a waddling gait. Black sandcloth has been pulled tightly about the head, bordered by  a weighted leather edging.  Narrow slits allow its wearer to peer out of the fabric, while a few leather strands near the back keep the mask taut.

-LoD

[Xygax]

Having separate head/body descs would be pretty cool, I think.  In fact, I'd like people to have descriptions for a lot of things for which no description exists now.  The problem is that I fear making the character application process more daunting than it already is for new players.

-- X

[Tamarin]

Perhaps it could be made optional to character creation?

More experienced players could choose to have the ability to make use of a more dynamic description system, whereas newer players could avoid it if so desired.

I would so very much like to see a system that allows subtle variations to the descriptors, so that things like your injuries, mood, and general physical situation could be more evident.  Probably won't happen though...

[Anonymous]

Having separate head/body descs would be pretty cool, I think.  In fact, I'd like people to have descriptions for a lot of things for which no description exists now.  The problem is that I fear making the character application process more daunting than it already is for new players.

-- X

I agree. It would be too much.

The reason I like this idea, is because it takes care of two issues.

1) It cures the 'look figure' OMG it's so and so syndrone. Which happens a lot.

and 2) It cures the uberness of the masks of yester year.

It also allows for some cool roleplay, because it forces your brain to stop and think about who the person might be or what they looked like. While this isn't perfect (IE the head/body thing) it's closer to what your brain would have to do if you had to ID someone who was wearing a mace wrap or something similar.

In addition, if you had seen a person previously, you would be better able to recognize him because you're brain will recognize the mdesc even with a bit of masking, the same as it does with the lang code when you are talking with n00b elves.

In addition to that, the masking could be random each time, making multiple look commands helping to give you a better idea of the persons mdsec.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't have a solution for the head/body thing. But, this does allow for a more realistic, and less abusable system then we've discussed previously.

Think for a moment how you recognize chars in arm. A lot of it is based on sdesc, only a small portion on mdesc. The size and stature of the person is really handled by the "tall figure in the so and so cloak" sdesc that gets placed on you when you wear a hood or wrap.

When you see a figure in a cloak you look at them (depending on the scene) and examine their mdesc to determine who they are. If it's a friend, you RP peering under their hood and they say, "Oh hey so and so. Wasn;t sure if that was you."

This code would simply hamper that process a bit, based on the type of disguise the person was wearing.  So if you were mugged by a well disguised person, you would be able to make out parts of the mdesc, but not all. So you could give a templar or whomever an account of what you could make out.

Plus, using this method, the staff could crank up or crank down the level of masking for an item thus avoiding further abuse and allowing for the system to be tweaked. All of this without an overhaul or over complication of the app system.

I think it's a nice medium, even if wearing a hood possibly masked something in your mdesc about your arms. It is a small tradeoff for the overall effect it provides.

[Anonymous]

The above was jmordetsky...

[Xygax]

Of course, the other interesting side effect would probably be that a lot of people would post a lot of typos about other people.  

-- X

[Bestatte]

I don't see why it would be too much. I mean, a main description is supposed to tell the reader something about the face and body anyway. I've seen plenty of characters in the past with sdescs like "the long-haired green-eyed woman" and when you look at the character, there's *zero* reference to hair or eyes.

When that character wears a hood, there's absolutely no way anyone could even *guess* that it was a long-haired green-eyed woman because 1) she neglected to mention the two main things about her that were worth putting in a sdesc, and 2) the imm who approved the application didn't catch it, or let it slide.

By just simply breaking up head and body descs as LoD suggested, during the application process, you'll eliminate that possibility from ever happening again. ALL characters will have some mention of their face, and ALL characters will have some mention of their bodies. Hood up - face part disappears. Hood down - face part appears. Corpse intact - full desc. Corpse beheaded - body only.

Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

[Anonymous]

Of course, the other interesting side effect would probably be that a lot of people would post a lot of typos about other people.  

-- X

Hahaha. Yes. True.

[Twilight]

While I was sort of blah on the idea on splitting them out, something Bestatte mentioned made me do a total reversal.  I totally love the idea of putting a person's description on their corpse object (at the very least for PCs!), and having it change for body and head objects if the corpse is beheaded.

[I]

I like it the way it is now. I think it should be up to the players to decide what they can and can't pick out of a description.

A long while back I had a PC that this hooded elf wanted to kill. Now beforehand, I met him a couple of times but he was always with a hood on. So, I looked at him and noticed he was not wearing gloves once. And in his main desc, he had milky skin or something and he also had long silvery hair. And maybe noticed what he had on his back and certainly what he wore.

Now even though this guy wayed me a bunch of times so I knew his short desc, I always played it out that the only thing I knew about him was that he was elf tall, had pale skin, and silver hair.

Did I know what he looked like? Yes. Did I know what his short desc was? Yes. But it was my personal choice not to use those things to hunt him down. I only went off what I could see of him.  Now, if I went by your method, I might not get that information, which would be silly.

Unfortunately, not everybody does this, I've seen people who will memorize a hooded figure's equipment then if they see the figure later and unhooded, attack them, claiming to recongnize the persons things.

[Delirium]

What's wrong with that?

Not that I condone magically remembering every single piece of equipment the PC was wearing, but let's say for the sake of argument that I'm walking down the street and suddenly this guy in black sneakers, blue-jeans, a hooded sweatshirt with a logo on it, and black gloves jumps me and grabs my bag, then runs off.  Later on, I see some guy wearing the same exact outfit and with the same build and carriage in the 7-11 getting coffee.  Are you saying I shouldn't recognize him at all?

I like the idea of body/head being split up in the descs, though I would make it an option to put the head description before the body, so that it reads more 'top to bottom', so to speak.

[Maybe42or54]

Interesting Idea about 2 descs. I enjoy it.

[Ghost]

I like the original poster's idea.  But the problem is, not every hood is good enough or even close for hiding identity.  

Having different main descs, I think that is pretty neat as well, but I would think after a while, people would get used to it and so would recognize the guy's main desc (without head desc) as well.

Hmm... Still the original idea sounds better to me.

[Angela Christine]

It's been discussed. Masks and hoods should help to hide one's identity, but shouldn't completely mask it.
[snip]

For example if my mdesc was:

This man is tall. He is handsome. He will mudsex you. He has a scar on his hand.

A hood might do something like:

This mxo is tulm. Hi is hqndsome. He wilx mxdsex you. Hx has a sxar xn his hxnd.

Meh.  

I see the problem being people who do the ol' cut & paste of descriptions to give their character's perfect recall, and this solution would barely bother them at all.  Even if it was nearly indecipherable as text, it would still be formatted exactly the same way as the original in regards to spacing, punctuation and the like, so if you are comparing it to a collection of unobfuscated descriptions it shouldn't be too difficult to find a match.

On the other hand for people who have seen a mixed up description and are trying to make a report this would make OOC nonsense out of the description.  "Well officer, he had either a scar or a star that I think it was on his head or his maybe his hand, I'm not really sure which."  Huh?  

Randomizing appearance that way just won't make sense in many situations, and it will do very little to stop people who use cut and paste to remember every single detail of a description.



It is a knotty problem.  I've been to roleplay MUSHs that used multi-descers so that you could pre-set an number of decriptions (usually it ws just for different outfits but in arm you could have: normal, masked, naked, cleaned up with a nice hair-do, especially filthy, topless, sick, horribly injured, burned, etc.) and easily switch between them, but I don't think it would work well with our application process.  Here are a couple examples:  http://www.chaoticmux.org/~kareila/TF/desc.txt   http://liverpool.o-r-g.org:8000/help/file?name=multidescer&db=153  
Even if you remove the ability to create brand new descriptions without staff intervention these would be trouble.  Now the application reviewers won't have to read just one description, they would have to read several and make sure that not only was each spelled and formated correctly, but that they are also consistant with eachother.  You can't have blue eyes in one description but green or brown eyes in another (unless your character is some swirly-eyed freak, and that should be a special app).


Another solution is having a description altering masks or disguises custom made for a particular character.  The mask-generated description is based on the regular description, but is altered in the ways that the mask would logically alter that particular individual's appearance.  The problems here are that they require some imm-effort to create and keep track of, and if the plump, brown-eyed woman wears the tall, muscular man's mask she will look exactly the same in it as he did, which is silly -- anyone who has experienced halloween knows that just putting on the mask of Zorro doesn't make you look much like Zorro.


I don't believe that there is any easy, newbie-friendly and imm-friendly yet twink-resistant way to solve this dilemma.


Angela Christine

[bloodfromstone]

The set of descriptions is a great idea. I can see the problem for scaring off new players, though, the character creation process is already pretty indepth.

As far as the OP's idea, I don't like it so much. There's a number of problems I see with it. The obvious being that you'll likely end up with nothing but useless information about the cloaked figure's freckled shoulders and third nipple while missing the details about stance, build, skin color, etc. It just doesn't seem realistic enough to me, I guess.

I don't have too much of a problem with the current system. Sure, it's flawed because people are flawed. Yeah, it sucks when you walk into the bar in a hooded cloak, emote stopping in the entry way, and your buddies at the bar look at you and call you over. It's frustrating when it becomes impossible to disguise your character, even if they have a pretty generic description, new clothes, and a facewrap. But I can't really think of anything that would fix these things without going too far the other way. Even with split head/body descriptions, people will still recognize you.

[jhunter]

The problems here are that they require some imm-effort to create and keep track of, and if the plump, brown-eyed woman wears the tall, muscular man's mask she will look exactly the same in it as he did, which is silly -- anyone who has experienced halloween knows that just putting on the mask of Zorro doesn't make you look much like Zorro.

:shock:


Shit, no wonder the cops are after me!


Z

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Regarding the OP's idea...
I think it should be implemented simply because it'd be so hilariously confusing for newbies.

Code Select Expand

point allanak

look figure

Tie fizynt ghefrre yio is a zhurc kittoe dxarf wytj no lair whetzoxejer. He hez big heids, o yarge nisy, and ze jmeltz xtrungiy of duit. Stars triss-crozx his yusxy skig.
The short figure in the hooded robe is in excellent condition.

The short figure in the hooded robe asks you, in an unfamiliar tongue:
"Xjo jhe rjxg urt iuy, ykxket!?"

You think:
"What the hell is wrong with this MUD!?!?"

[bloodfromstone]

That's hilarious.  :lol:

[Larrath]

I am very much against the original proposal.  Scrambling large masses of text will only promote heads exploding and being bashed in.
And promote those silly "lower your hood, citizen" situations, too.
Also, like jhunter said, the formatting remains the same, so it makes little difference.

About describing specific portions of the body, I am in favor.  This could be troublesome for newbies, but I can see a way around this.  It will work this way:

Code Select Expand


Now entering main description - would you like to use a Normal or a Modular description?  (N/m)
> N
[Normal editor goes here.]

>m
Please describe your hair or bald, shiny dwarven head.
[Editor]
Please describe your head, ears and face.
.
.
.


This will include hands, arms, neck, body and back, face, eyes, feet, legs, ears and, just for the heck of it, genitals.
Then equipment would actually hide things.  Yay for striptease!
We really need a way to let people disguise themselves.  It's crucial for raiders and criminals and spies and secret magickers out on missions of mass pain and discomfortation.

[jmordetsky]

One problem with double descs is that, if I mask my face, and that gets taken away, then you can still key off my body desc. Which, to be fair, isn't going to be as helpful to you in recognizing someone very easily in real life. IT helps, but it shouldn't let this ID someone. You can still ID someone from their body desc, way to easily.

For example my double desc:

[FACE]
This man's face is well structured. He has a scar on his left cheek, and oddly shapen nose and bright blue eyes.
[/FACE]

[BODY]
This man's body is sturdy and strong. He has the look of one who has spent a lot of time in the desert. His hands are calloused and dirty.
[BODY]

So, when you look at me you see:

This man's face is well structured. He has a scar on his left cheek, and oddly shaped nose and bright blue eyes. This man's body is sturdy and strong. He has the look of one who has spent a lot of time in the desert. His hands are calloused and dirty.

Now, according the 2 desc logic, if I wear a facewrap you see:

This man's body is sturdy and strong. He has the look of one who has spent a lot of time in the desert. His hands are calloused and dirty.

But your brain can still do direct recall of me based on body desc, it's an exact match to the other piece of my desc. The same words etc, and as a result you won't feel lost when you look at me. You'll know who I am, because your brain will automatically match the pattern of words from body desc. This is worsed if you've seen me before.

Now, we know that killing certain characters in the language code hampers your understanding. We've all played it and experienced the feeling of "What the fuck did that dwarf just say?". This, is a near perfect implementation for language because of what it does to your brain when you read the dialogue. You lean and go "Wha"? Then you read it again. You "read" what they are saying and "feel" confused.

That same feeling of confusion and inability to discern what's happening from a sensory point of view is directly applicable to the issue of hoods and masks.

I took the same example from before and wrote a script that ran it through a random number generator to mask some letters. Now to deal with the formatting recognition (which is a valid point) that AC brought up, I also masked space characters which throws off your ability to match "word" patterns.

Secondly, to address Ghost's concern, (which is also a valid one) I created different levels of  "masked" descriptions based on a percent chance of character being masked. Objects in game (theoretically, Xygax would need to confirm that, I'm just speculating on this) could have a different "percent" chance of masking a character's mdesc. I could only imagine that this is would be very similar to the code that determines, based on your language skill, if you understand something someone says to you.

Here is the original desc along with the results categorized by how much "masking" potential an item has:

Original – no mask.

This man's face is well structured. He has a scar on his left cheek, and oddly shaped nose and bright blue eyes. This man's body is sturdy and strong. He has the look of one who has spent a lot of time in the desert. His hands are calloused and dirty.


Light Hood - Masking potential of 30%

This man-s fa-e is w--l structur-d- He has a-scar-on hi---eft-c--ek, a-d o-d---sh--e- nose --d brig-t bl-e eye-- -h-s--an'- body--s --ur-y -n- stro-g---- has-t-e look -f-one who h-s-s-en--- lot-of -ime-in t-e---s-rt- -i- hands --e-c-l-o-sed and di-t--


Face wrap (alone) - Masking potential of 50%

--is m-n-s f--e is-wel- str---ured- ----a--a-s-ar -- -is---f- -h---- -n----dly--h-pe- --s--a-d---i----b-----ye-.--h-s-m-n---b-dy----s-u-dy-a---st-ong--H- h-s--he l-o--o-------h- h-- --e-t---l-t-of -im--in -he-d--ert. --s ----s a-----l--u-e- --d d--ty.


Full length body cloak w/hood and full obsidian face mask - Masking potential of 80%

--is---n---f---------------------------------------- -i----------------------------e--------n-------t----------------------------i-------y---- -----------h-- ------o---- --- ------------------------------ ----------.-----h---------------s-- ----------

The last example is extreme, but I was considering this a V like costume. (google: vendetta wachowski for more info on V)

The idea is, when you look at these people, you might be able to make them out, you might not. But when you read those desc, you're like "fuck who is that?". If you had seen me before you might be able to recognize me in the first two. Also, you can see this can be tweaked. Perhaps the most powerful masking item only gives you 30% coverage.

The idea is to inhibit your brains natural ability to put together patterns of words and recognize them so that you cannot recognize a PC.  You're not doing this by just removing portions of a description.

[jmordetsky]

Also, breaking descs down into portions removes some of the artistry from the mdesc.

[Larrath]

The way I remember mdescs, and probably most others, is that I memorize the general length and shape of the description, as well as the first and last lines.
Take off a couple of lines, or the first one, and a lot of people will have trouble recognizing right away.

Scrambling letters isn't the way.  If someone is wearing a mask, I should still be able to see that giant pink tattoo on his entire palm.  If they are wearing a mask using the 'modular' descriptions, I won't be able to tell that to the templar when I'm describing what the spy looked like.

[flurry]

Throwing in my two sids, I have to say I don't like the idea of masking descriptions in the way the OP proposes.  It makes sense for languages, but  not for this IMHO.  Some things should be really easy to discern and other things impossible, and this treats them all the same.  On top of that, I think the concern about new players is legitimate.

I love the idea of modular descriptions, in some form or other.  If it were optional, it shouldn't make the application process too daunting.

I've wondered before - how do you describe something (like a birthmark) that should be distinctive if seen but that would be obscured under ordinary circumstances?   Right now I think you're kind of stuck with leaving it out, unless it can be handled by the tattoo or scar code.   It's a separate (and probably less important) problem than the hooked/masked issue, but I think there could be a common fix with modular descriptions.

[Rindan]

I'm a guess I am a horrible non-collaborator because I absolutely disagree with everyone.  In my opinion, anyone with a 10 'sid black sandcloth mask over their face should have their mdesc and sdesc hidden.

If I were to come up behind you in a park with a simple black hoodie, black mask, and some generic non-descript clothing and robe you, you would NEVER be able to identify me in a police line up.  At best you could tell the police my race, my height, and my gender.  Yes, you could look at my hands and see judge how rough they are, and maybe you could see my eye color, but what in the hell would you tell the police?  I saw the callused hand, blue eyed man?  He was six feet tall and had a wide gate?  Please.  People have a very hard time identifying criminals that rob without taking any precautions to conceal their identity.  Make even the slightest attempt to conceal one's identity and there is pretty much no hope of telling who they are.  At best, if the criminal is stupid they will have a unique set of tattoos or strange equipment... something Armageddon already has.

The balance in Armageddon is flung WAY over to it being FAR too easy to identify people, especially when they are taking pains to avoid identification.  This combined with the fact that there are rarely more then 20-50 active people in a single area makes hiding your identity simply impossible.  If you want to do something where you need to conceal your identity, you can just throw that idea out as things stand.  An anonymous mugging is completely impossible unless you kill the victim.  Want to be an assassin that conceals his identity?  It is completely impossible without imm intervention even then a 10 'sid stip of sandcloth should be able to do the trick.

More anonymity in this game wouldn't hurt this game in the slightest.  In fact, I think it would drastically improve the criminal underworlds as people could try some underhand activity without sacrificing the ability to ever be seen by humanity again.  

If I had a magik wand, I would make it so that hoods work in the manner they do today.  I would then make it so that any strip of sandcloth, facewrap, or mask worn on your face would conceal your sdesc and mdesc.  Don't want people dressed like muggers wandering around the streets?  Tell them to take off their face wraps.  Would this make Luir's, Red Storm, and the 'rinth sketchier?  Hell yes.  Good.

[jhunter]

Honestly, while I think that jmordetsky's idea is a good one and would be an improvement from what we currently have, I completely agree with Rindan.

It's far too easy for people to identify your pc. Almost so bad that you'd think there was a team from CSI following your pc about...and this team....has The Way.

The fact of the matter is, without technology, if the person doesn't go around mouthing off about what they did...it is much easier in RL to conceal yourself.
Even with it, a guy robbed a bank here just a couple months ago wearing basically the equivalent to a hood and facewrap (all camo hunting gear), noone can tell them anything other than that it was a white male around 6' and the tellers looked him straight in the face at a close distance. Noone can remember any small details about him and cannot even agree upon what color his eyes were.

Your main desc is there all the time, even if most of it would be covered up. People twink, magickally knowing everything they can see because they can. See, another problem with it is that even if they were too pumped at the time of the encounter to remember what you looked like from seeing your main desc (which is perfectly realistic)....they can still scroll back and read it again with better accuracy than a modern security camera. (Completely unrealistic)

[Maybe42or54]

I guess I should read these things in depth like the rest of you.

[Armaddict]

Agreed with Rindan and Jhunter.

I always hated that as a result of masks being so heavily sought after, valuable, and powerful, we removed 'masking' descriptions altogether, rather than making it so common that it was no big deal.  I always though it would be somewhat commonplace in certain areas, while kind of...strange, in the others, and perhaps suspicious or attention drawing, but not out of the ordinary.  For example...face wraps outside in a storm, or out in the desert, or in the labyrinth, I don't think a 'mask' would be that uncommon at all.  They aren't particularly hard to make, all you need is sandcloth.

As to the arguments that you have to see -some- part of their body with mask.  It gives you their general height and weight with their description, and you can assess.  And I find it odd that the criminals are constantly asked to trust their victims to play things out correctly, and not take advantage of the benefits their given.  Why can't I ask all you victims to trust the masked to use emotes to describe what features you -would- notice?  They're asking the same thing, but it is always made into the responsibility of one side to trust the other.

Basically...I think masks should come back.  And be in style.

[RunningMountain]

You become pretty jaded after a while when dealing with how most criminal-type PCs are going to do things, especially in cities. Steal. Fail. Run. North.

It seems no matter how hard you try no one will ever turn themselves in, even when it starts becoming inevitable. So am I going to wait for them to emote something? Nope.

And is it right that they can mask an entire main description that might have 2 lines of their face and 6 lines of their body, tattoos and other shit I might notice? I don't think so.

If I can land a subdue THEN I'll start emoting. Until people start going against the grain and realizing that getting caught sometimes ISN'T always a bad thing. Can't stand the number of people that constntly try to run from you, it's like everyone even non-elves are world-class sprinters. There are always exceptions to the rule but in this case, very little. So, I vote keep it the way it is, a main description has too much useful things.  

When I am asked whether I got a description or not, I can say yeah I caught this and that. Instead of going. Oh, no, he stood there for 5 minutes fighting with us, but through his mask I couldn't see his eye color, any distinguishing marks anywhere else on his body or anything.

I think the only way an MDESC should be hidden is if someone is clothed from head to toe in black sandcloth or armor. And is wearing a mask/wrap or whatever. Then I might accept it. I mean every wear location too, so you can't see any flesh.

-RM

[RunningMountain]

My last post kind of got me thinking. It would be interesting if certain combonations of equipment did that. Like say the code might recognize that your head, face, neck, body, legs, feet, wrists, forearms, arms, hands, are all covered in a certain item. We can take black sandcloth for example. And you're wearing a hood and a facewrap. That should take your MDESC away, because there is nothing noticeable about that person. In fact the same might be said for someone wearing a lot of armor and then donning a mask or greathelm or something. Can't notice anything about them.  

I just don't like the idea of someone wearing a mask, pants and a shirt, and you can't see that they are hunched over or their build or any scars or tattoos that are in MDESC and not coded on the person. Maybe if we got away from MDESC tattoos and scars it would help, but still.

Skeptical as always but trying to help with the problem. It is a problem. Frusterating for both ends of the spectrum (criminal and crime-fighter) which I have played.

[RunningMountain]

You know what else would be interesting? Being able to submit for unique tattoos or scars DURING character creation. Optional of course. But that would lead away from all those scorpion-tattooed, black-inked, or just crazy tattoos that are only in the MDESC. If people could submit a certain amount for each location which could be edited by staff that would get rid of the tattoo/scar problem. So then instead of being.

The tattooed, scarred man whom has no damn tattoos or scars coded on him.
You can be.

The tattooed, scarred man who has all his tattoos/scars preloaded on him right when he gets in game and has NO NEED to describe it in his MDESC because the player was allowed to describe it in character creation and get it coded on their characters body.  Now that would help.

-RM

[Puppet]

I disagree with the OP. Alot. If mdescs were "scrambled" like that, then I just wouldn't really bother reading them. It treats -all- feature of a mdesc the same and masks them, which isn't realistic. Now, I agree with the original point the OP made and think that something needs to be done and IMO it needs to be all or nothing. Either masks/hoods/wraps need to conceal your identity completely or they need to be left as is.

I have a hunch that if the scrambled letter thing were IG it wouldn't go over well. It just seems cumbersome and slightly annoying to me. Yes, it makes sense for languages because when they speak, nothing they say is comprehensible or makes sense to the ears of our characters. However, physical traits -are- comprehensible. If he had a "sxar" on his hand and it was actually a tattooed star, I'd recognize that. However, with this code, I'd probably say it was a scar and it just wouldn't make very much sense at all that I confused those two things.

Personally, I agree most with Rindan. Just make hoods/masks/wraps completely conceal the mdesc and deal with the drawbacks of that. I think that they are considerably less than what we're dealing with now.

[jhunter]

I think that they are considerably less than what we're dealing with now.

Yep, right now there are -too many- negatives going the opposite way.

When I am asked whether I got a description or not, I can say yeah I caught this and that. Instead of going. Oh, no, he stood there for 5 minutes fighting with us, but through his mask I couldn't see his eye color, any distinguishing marks anywhere else on his body or anything.

That's where it is unrealistic. It is more common that in a dangerous or adrenaline-pumping situation you won't notice small details like the color of their eyes. If you can do this with any accuracy in RL then you are the exception, not the rule.

You become pretty jaded after a while when dealing with how most criminal-type PCs are going to do things, especially in cities. Steal. Fail. Run. North.

You become pretty jaded when you are the criminal that has everything stacked OOCly against you. The other side of the coin is that people -rarely- want to play the victim, they rarely -don't- see who it was that attempted to steal from them, even though the code supports whether or not you notice -who- bumped you or whatever.
It is far too easy to identify someone who is trying not to be easily identified.
People, more often than not will accuse you because you are the only pc in the room that they know of. No matter what, if someone wants to be twinky and abuse the extra information they get from being able to see your whole main desc, save it, scroll back because they can't quite remember (which is all the equivalent of -every- damned pc in the game having a photographic memory), etc..you are left with doing whatever it takes to try and survive. Most of the time...it isn't actually the victim pc's life on the line...it's the criminal's life that is probably over if caught.

If I can land a subdue THEN I'll start emoting.

If you can land a subdue, what difference does it make if they're desc is covered by a mask? You've got them...pull it off their head.

The only problem with masks covering main desc is that people won't be able to easily catch people who are trying to conceal themselves. I don't see that as a problem, plenty realistic to me. More realistic than the reasons for it not being that way without special help from the staff.

always hated that as a result of masks being so heavily sought after, valuable, and powerful, we removed 'masking' descriptions altogether, rather than making it so common that it was no big deal. I always though it would be somewhat commonplace in certain areas, while kind of...strange, in the others, and perhaps suspicious or attention drawing, but not out of the ordinary. For example...face wraps outside in a storm, or out in the desert, or in the labyrinth, I don't think a 'mask' would be that uncommon at all. They aren't particularly hard to make, all you need is sandcloth.

That is exactly the problem. I think it was a mistake of judgment to make them rare as well.  You make something rare, you put more value on it. What should've been done is they should've been made very easy to get and then you remove the excess value of them being rare.


As things are now, I really think that the criminally-minded are getting OOCly fucked over by being so easy to identify and I think the people playing the victims are getting screwed out of some fun rp as well. I would honestly -love- to have that fear of:
"Damned raiders...robbed me...least I'm not dead. But shit, as far as I know....they could be in this very tavern with me."

...and have it be an actual fear OOC for me as the player, instead of just my pc's feelings, because OOCly I know they -are- sitting in the damned tavern with me.

[marko]

I've played positions of power on both sides of the law in the game.

Masks - they were common for a time.  And a lot of people had them.  It sucked.  Plain and simple.  From the criminal point of view - you had dorks coming in from the law-abiding groups wearing a mask and going nuts.  From the law point of view - you had dorks coming in from the criminal groups wearing a mask and going nuts.

The problem with masks as they are (in that they conceal the full main desc) is that it grants the wearer 'free reign' to go on wild killing sprees, criminal runs, or whatever.  Not to mention people began protesting that should they be able to commit a crime in a law zone without being wanted when they take off the mask...  (Who WAS THAT MASKED CRUSADER?!)

Basically, I am very happy concealing masks were pulled from the game in the form that they were in.  They were, to put it simply, abused.  Why would I call it abuse?  Because the same individuals who weren't wearing full concealment masks wouldn't do the same activities to any degree of them.  Therefore, somehow, their behavior changed due to the mask.  And really, it shouldn't to that extent - yes, it may allow some to be a little more wild when hidden behind the mask but I'm talking complete changes of character, people becoming serial murderers, noble aides turning into crazy criminals that rampage in wild killing sprees.  

The idea about having a mask scramble the main desc isn't a bad one and it makes sense.  A face object could have a scrambling rating from say, one to fifty five.  That way things like sheer faceclothes would mess up someone's desc as would a full cover mask of say, featureless obsidian.

Another thought would be to allow other objects apart from face objects to have a scrambling factor.  IE, a cloak with its hood up could max out at 15.  So by combining a cloak and a mask - you get an even more distorted main desc.  At no time do I think that main desc should ever be completely jibberish.

Why never reaching the point of 100% scrambling - because you can always tell something of someone's appearance even if it is their height and weight - or a glimpse of the hair colour, some hint as to the skin colour, maybe some distiguishing mark like glowing eyes - something might be noticed.  I'm not saying that it would and with a main desc 55% jibberish - you'll have a hard time figuring out who the person was already.  Of course, we'll get people who will go back into their logs and analyze the description over and over and over and over until they can figure it out - but there isn't a lot we can do about that.  Personally, I'd consider that bad form unless, for whatever reason, your character has a perfect memory of everything.

The real question is - is this worth going through the effort to code, test, and then migrate all the existing objects over?  I'm not certain.  While I think it's a nifty idea and concept - but from my experiences I've seen masks abused time and time again.  

There are noteable exceptions to this but for the most part that's what I remember happening for the majority of the time.

Anyway, all that to say, I like the idea and I think it'd be beneficial to the game as a whole.  But, I rather not see full hide masks in the game again.

[Rindan]

When I am asked whether I got a description or not, I can say yeah I caught this and that. Instead of going. Oh, no, he stood there for 5 minutes fighting with us, but through his mask I couldn't see his eye color, any distinguishing marks anywhere else on his body or anything.

So let us say you are fighting with a masked man in a generic hooded cloak for five minutes.  What on earth are you going to tell your templar?  Assess –v gives you a damn good idea what his race is, and a simple look will point out any odd equipment or tattoos that are not concealed.  If you have peek, you could even see a few things that are concealed on his persona that might help in identification later. The simple fact of the matter is that if you are fighting a masked man with a 10 'sid bandana wraped around his face wearing anything other then skin tight clothing, you are going to know close to nothing about him.  Maybe you saw his eyes.  Who cares?  How many people in Allanak have blue eyes?  How many people have brown hair? You might catch some tattoos or scars, but when it really comes down to it, unless there is something very unique about him, you will have absolutely nothing to go on.  GOOD.

What do you tell your templar?  You tell your templar the exact same thing you would tell a police officer if a masked man robbed you.  He had a mask on.  Unless he was wearing something obvious, or had a unique tattoo, you have absolutely no chance of identifying him.  Your templar should backhand you if you tell him his eye color and pass that off as 'identification'.  Hell, even a tattoo or a scar probably wouldn't be of any help in identification unless you had a list of suspects and only one of them had said tattoo.  Seeing as how Armageddon has roughly 20-50 active players in one area at a time who are all the obvious suspects, that is probably far more help then you should realistically be given.

Are there exception when you can identify a masked man?  Sure.  However, those are exceptions.  The general rule is that masked people are close to impossible to identify.  The code should reflect the rule, not the rare exception.  If someone has a mask on, chances are he is going out of his way to not be identified and has covered up the obvious markers.  You shouldn't be able to identify him.

[Rindan]

They were, to put it simply, abused.  Why would I call it abuse?  Because the same individuals who weren't wearing full concealment masks wouldn't do the same activities to any degree of them.  Therefore, somehow, their behavior changed due to the mask.  And really, it shouldn't to that extent - yes, it may allow some to be a little more wild when hidden behind the mask but I'm talking complete changes of character, people becoming serial murderers, noble aides turning into crazy criminals that rampage in wild killing sprees.

The imm stick of beat downs is for noble aids that decide to become crazy criminals that go on killing sprees because they figured out how to tie a piece of sandcloth over their face.

As it stands, behavior is radically skewed because not only is perfect identification of people easy, but once you have identified someone they basically have to leave the city if they want to avoid further contact because there are all of 30 active players to pick from.  The community pressure to not do bad things is far more akin to living in a small tribal village then it is like living in a city of half of a million.  

Playing a criminal in Armageddon is a headache in juggling OOC worries about being identified.  No one is ever mugged on the street because even if the instant city wide alert system manned by uber guards of d00m that can not be snuck passed didn't tear you apart, one simple look from the victim and you basically can considered yourself banned from the city proper until the day that guy dies.  That is not realistic.  

If I had to pick between walking home at night in city where I live in real life or Allanak, I would pick Allanak every time.  Allanak is significantly safer, and it isn't like I live in the ghettos of L.A.

I am saying leave the uber guards and the city wide alert system.  Leave it so that the pool of suspects is only the 30 active players in the area.  Leave it so that if you are an elf and commit a crime the list of suspects drops to 3.  Leave it so that being the one active elven 'rinther means that you get arrested every 30 seconds because obviously you must be apart of some 'rinth plot seeing as how there are only five of you.  Leave it so that unless you simply leave Allanak proper it is always trivial for any law bringer to find you.  Yes, leave everything that stacks the game radically against any sort of realistic criminal activity and throw the criminals a bone.  Let them wear a bandana as a mask so that at the very least you need to do an equipment/scars/tattoo match before instantly knowing exactly who the mask villain was.  At worst, the ability to completely wipe out any unlawful activity in a city of half of a million poor will be slightly reduced.

I know, I know, dying to another PC or having your dagger stolen would be a tragedy, but I think it would add a little more atmosphere.  As it stands, I have not been killed by another non-Templar PC in years, and I have never in the 6-8+ years I have been playing this game been pick pocketed.  I have had much worse happen to me in the real city that I live in where the police kinda-sorta give a damn.

That is just wrong.

[marko]

What do you tell your templar?  You tell your templar the exact same thing you would tell a police officer if a masked man robbed you.  He had a mask on.  Unless he was wearing something obvious, or had a unique tattoo, you have absolutely no chance of identifying him.  Your templar should backhand you if you tell him his eye color and pass that off as 'identification'.  Hell, even a tattoo or a scar probably wouldn't be of any help in identification unless you had a list of suspects and only one of them had said tattoo.  Seeing as how Armageddon has roughly 20-50 active players in one area at a time who are all the obvious suspects, that is probably far more help then you should realistically be given.

Are there exception when you can identify a masked man?  Sure.  However, those are exceptions.  The general rule is that masked people are close to impossible to identify.  The code should reflect the rule, not the rare exception.  If someone has a mask on, chances are he is going out of his way to not be identified and has covered up the obvious markers.  You shouldn't be able to identify him.

Well, I disagree for the same reasons as I posted that a mask should never completely someone's main description.  Main descriptions contain far more information than facial features.

What are you are suggesting is that the person who has a main desc that includes such tidbits as: long white hair to the middle of their back, is a hunchback, has nine fingers, has one leg noticeably shorter than the other, has purple skin, and has an obnoxiously foul smell coming from a series of puss ridden boils - would be entirely undescribeable because they wear something that covers part of their face.

I really don't see how you can say that you shouldn't be able to notice any of these traits because of a face wrapped up in sandcloth or covered by a plank of wood.

How would I describe someone if they were a masked crusader wearing green tights... well, after getting past the green tights - I'd point out the incredibly scrawny body that is almost skeletal, that they have reaaaaaally long arms and short legs, and oddly enough, a potbelly.

Just because Batman has a full costume that covers up everything doesn't mean that anyone with half a brain can't figure out who Robin was.

The point - a mask does not a concealing costume make.  Therefore a mask should not grant 100% concealment of someone's maindesc - it simply does not make sense.  Partial concealment makes sense but full - I can't find any way to justify that.

[LoD]

Masks aren't abused in concept, they are abused in practice.

No one will argue with you that someone dressed in a heavy cloak and sandcloth mask would be difficult to identify.  What they should argue is that Armageddon doesn't allow for many of the other methods through which people are often identified.

When the masked bandit flees, do the VNPC or NPC's that know him/her, witness their attack, see them removing clothing, remember them from a previous day, etc...report in?  Not usually.  Do they come forward with information about how they've seen this person a few times before and know where his cousin's brother's friend Jojo lives?  Not usually.

Do your masked attackers have coded wounds on their body for the next few IC weeks showing where they were attacked by you specifically?  Does the wound match your particular weapon type, angle and strength of cut?  Not usually.

There are limited ways in the game for people to identify one another, and that is why these mask objects hold such power.  Not because they are overpowered in concept, but because any object that removes or lessens our limited methods of identification to the degree old mdesc-hiding masks did, you have a lot of room for potential abuse.

-LoD

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

I like the idea about making separate descriptions.

"This man, Lord templar. -tries to describe the robber to templar- "This mxo is tulm. Hi is hqndsome. He wilx mxdsex you. Hx has a sxar xn his hxnd. He just tried to rob me!"

"What the.. You two, throw this fellar into the cells for a couple of weeks for speaking gibberish and wasting my time."

So what's Hexxaex and Xygax wearing?  :lol:

[Maybe42or54]

I know, I know, dying to another PC or having your dagger stolen would be a tragedy, but I think it would add a little more atmosphere.  As it stands, I have not been killed by another non-Templar PC in years, and I have never in the 6-8+ years I have been playing this game been pick pocketed.  I have had much worse happen to me in the real city that I live in where the police kinda-sorta give a damn.

That is just wrong.

Dyeing to another pc or just a dagger stolen would be great. Does that happen? Except for the first one, yea. Except when I have been stolen from it was all my newbie coin within 3 minutes of logging onto the game, or my collection of 8 throwing knives and 3 chakrams and and a couple shortswords, or my three pairs of expensive boots, or my entire set of snakeskin clothing that I was saving for cross dressing day. It hardly is -just- a dagger. I've been killed by other pcs for the stupidest reasons you could think of, also.

Once your pc is identified as a thief/raider/assassin, your social life is dead because even those non-twinky, super Rp'ers, take that information from the twinky Rp'ers and abuse it (or what have you.)

A soldier PC identifies you, despite how dressed up you got, and the PC templar uses that information to harass/kill/outcast you. It has always appeared that way to me. I've never heard of a templar going "Yea, like there isn't fifty thousand scrawny people with scars all over the place and makes a bynner blush with how much they say fuck. Catch him next time soldier, it isn't my job to do it for you. If he got away, he got away. I'm not wasting an hour of my time to catch a pick-pocket that stole from a tier 1 borsail noble's aide."

Have you ever heard of those?

I like the new direction the mud has gone since everyone doesn't wear a mask and sit in a tavern talking to their friends without ever removing those facewraps, hoods, hats, and whatever else they had.

[Angela Christine]

Don't piss in your own nest.  Don't socialize in the same places your victims socialize, then you don't have to worry about them recognising you.  


Angela Christine

[Maybe42or54]

SO live in Tuluk, steal in allanak, then go back to Tuluk?

[Angela Christine]

Probably not, that would be a little much for a petty pickpocket.  But a pickpocket might live in the 'rinth, socialize in 'rinthi taverns, and work in the commoner's quarter or the merchant's quarter.  A higher class criminal, like a skilled assassin, burglar or spy, might work in Allanak but live in Red Storm when they want to kick back and relax.

Nobody said a life of crime would be easy.  Hunters don't complain that they have to travel to hunt.  Raiders don't complain that they have to travel to raid.  Miners don't complain that they have to travel to raid.  You can't just wait for opportunity to come to you.  Unless you have some dull gate-guarding job you are probably going to have to travel a little for work, that travel might be moving between neighbourhoods to buy and sell goods, or moving between cities to avoid angry mobs.


Ideally people would be able to work and live in neighbourhoods in a single hometown, but that probably isn't going to be practical unless/untill there are hundreds of people logged in at a time.  Most people that hang out in the Trader's Inn won't go into the Gaj, and vice versa, but there is still more social movment within Allanak than you would expect in a real city.  


Angela Christine

[Cale_Knight]

I, personally, would hate if everyone's description was forced to conform to the exact same template as everyone else. It would make for rather boring reading

[bloodfromstone]

Can't stand the number of people that constntly try to run from you, it's like everyone even non-elves are world-class sprinters.

I think just about everyone would at least try to bolt if they were faced with a situation like this. I've never seen a fat kid just stand there and wait for the bullies to get him because he's not a world class sprinter.

[RunningMountain]

Yes it's a constant debate. Crime vs Law. I don't think we should get into it here.

[Rindan]

What are you are suggesting is that the person who has a main desc that includes such tidbits as: long white hair to the middle of their back, is a hunchback, has nine fingers, has one leg noticeably shorter than the other, has purple skin, and has an obnoxiously foul smell coming from a series of puss ridden boils - would be entirely undescribeable because they wear something that covers part of their face.

I really don't see how you can say that you shouldn't be able to notice any of these traits because of a face wrapped up in sandcloth or covered by a plank of wood.

Obviously you should be able to notice you are dealing with a hideous mutant.  That said, I don't want the games rules built around hideous mutants as they are the very rare exception.  The code should be constructed around your average elven 'rinth or grubby human raider, not six armed mutants that are easily identifiable.  In a city of half of a million, if a guy in a mask robs you, you will never find him again through identification.  Period.  End of story.  Hell, in this day and age people are robbed at point to their face without any masks and are later unable to identify their attacker.  Bank robbers wear masks for a reason why they rob a bank, and it isn't because it looks cool.

Are you really arguing that the game isn't skewed way the hell off in the direction of it being too easy to identify people?  Are you really telling me that the ability to conceal your identity while at the same time basically identifying yourself as being up to no good is less realistic then a world where you can always tell who is who and the list of suspects is never longer then 20 people?  Are you really arguing that the current state of affairs is closer to realism then the alternative?

How would I describe someone if they were a masked crusader wearing green tights... well, after getting past the green tights - I'd point out the incredibly scrawny body that is almost skeletal, that they have reaaaaaally long arms and short legs, and oddly enough, a potbelly.

You just described half of the teenage population of Gotham.  The point isn't that a guy with a mask on can't be described, it is that nothing that distinguishes him from anyone else could described.

The point - a mask does not a concealing costume make.  Therefore a mask should not grant 100% concealment of someone's maindesc - it simply does not make sense.  Partial concealment makes sense but full - I can't find any way to justify that.

Someone better tell the criminals in the real world this, as they tend to use masks and a sweatshirt as their full body concealment costume all the time.  Hell, some of them don't even bother with the mask and just trust in peoples' less then perfect memory and the fact that the suspect list is greater then 20.  The game is wildly skewed in favor of making identification far too easy.  

As it stands, the only way to commit a crime without being identified is to kill the victim.  There is a damn good reason why raiders shoot first and ask questions later.  If the victim gets away even once, you are pretty much banned from civilization forever.

[RunningMountain]

Maybe all zalanthas have photographic memories. Some sort of genetic evolution over the many years of the harsh environment have made your everyday commoner fairly good at remembering things. Much like torture victims.

[jmordetsky]

I just want to take a minute to break down possible disguise scenarios. Because we're lumping them together.

1)   Someone you know sees you with a hood/wrap/bandana/mask

Odds are, depending on the item you are wearing, you will be recognized.
For example: SarahJC comes home from design school and sees someone sitting in a chair wearing a bandana over their face. She knows it's me by eyes. She's seen me 100 times.

2)   Someone you don't know sees you with a hood/wrap/bandana/mask

Odds are, this person will be able to identify certain features about you, but not all. Maybe your eyes, hair, the scar on your hand. Depends.
For example: SarahJC goes to the bank, a dude storms in wearing a bandana over their face and starts yelling. He leaves with money, and luckily no one gets hurt. The police ask SarahJC for a description she says, "hed brown curly hair, brown eyes, and thick eyebrows, that's all I could see with the bandana over the lower face. Though I did notice the shape of his ears were pointed, and that a chunk of one was missing.

A bandana, or a wrap on my face isn't going to completely blank out everything about me, it's just silly. And I completely agree with Marco that the total anonymity would quickly breed complete chaos.

Now, I would *love* the idea of portioned mdescs, as LOD suggested, especially if certain items could only mask my eyes, others my lips, others my whole face, but not my body, and cloaks my body details or scars.

But lets be realistic here, it's not going to happen. To do that, every wearable item would need to be tagged with a an area of your appearance that it could cover, and to be remotely realistic you then need to tag your mdesc with all these locations, your eyes, your nose, your lips, your chin.  It's just not practical, to be fair, it's total overkill.

The beauty of the dashing out certain characters of the mdesc is a) in the simplicity of solution (that's not to say it would be simple to code, but I have to think far more simple then the mdesc break down) and b) the fact that portions of you desc could still be identified, and still (more importantly) left up to RP.

The other issue with just blanking out a tagged area of the mdesc is that it penalizes good authors and people who write unique descriptions. You will recognize cool things you recall from a desc more easily then some guy who has a 1 line body desc "This man is muscular."

*shrug*

I'm done.

[jhunter]

When the masked bandit flees, do the VNPC or NPC's that know him/her, witness their attack, see them removing clothing, remember them from a previous day, etc...report in? Not usually. Do they come forward with information about how they've seen this person a few times before and know where his cousin's brother's friend Jojo lives? Not usually.

Do npcs you've gone out of your way to save their lives in the past remember you and cut you a break when you are accused of breaking the law? Nope. Do npc soldiers come forward and put in a good word for you when you have helped out in the past? Nope. Do they recognize you as someone who is actually helping uphold the law by making an attack on someone dangerous in defense of a templar/noble if you are not coded as being a part of those clans? Nope.

This reasoning holds no water in my opinion. And respectfully, I must say that this is the first thing I've ever read that you have stated that I don't feel is valid in the particular discussion, it isn't very good reasoning for a change in this direction not being implemented in the game.

Do I think that full mdesc covering items -could- be abused in some way? Sure. Do I think that not having them is better than the current situation which has more potential for abuse, (and is often done) is better than that? Not by a long shot.

Do your masked attackers have coded wounds on their body for the next few IC weeks showing where they were attacked by you specifically? Does the wound match your particular weapon type, angle and strength of cut? Not usually.

Does everyone roleplay out their wound accordingly in the first place? Nope. Does everyone roleplay out their failures or weaknesses in their pcs? Nope.

These are not good enough reasons to make things harder on those of us who would rp them out to the fullest of our abilities. If the code doesn't make it unreasonably difficult then I would totally rp out those things to give the clues to people and give them a reasonable chance to spot those "odd" things about my pc if there are any.

As it stands, things are most definitely stacked against someone who is trying to rp out something of that sort, no matter how realistically they play it out.

The reason Armageddon is as good as a roleplaying environment is because there is the ability and the trust involved to play out these things realistically. (And the code to back up that realism to an extent.) When you put too much in (or leave it out) to stop the "few" that would abuse it then you hurt the rp of those who would rp it realistically and make that sort of rp "weak" compared to the rp of other character types. Both on the part of the instigator and the victim.

It doesn't necessarily have to be fully one way or the other, my personal preference with the mechanics would be that there is the possibility for someone to make themselves almost wholly unindentifiable, but right now it is skewed way to far in the favor of the victims.

Something really needs to be done about this. This one thing is the biggest flaw in the game IMO. I -love- this game but this is something that has always struck me as out of place and harmful to the rp environment.

Edit: Also, why does it have to be only portioned mdesc or our current mdesc? Why can't it be a combination of both? You write a normal main description, then you write up the portioned parts. Face, build, skin tone, scars, etc... Normally your full main desc would be seen by anyone that looks at you. But when you are wearing certain concealing items...that main desc is covered...and the uncovered portions you wrote are seen.

I'll apologize now if I missed this but from what I did read it appears to me that people are suggesting only one way or the other.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Code Select Expand

The black elf's face is long and drawn, his eyes narrow and slanted. His nose is pierced and hooked, like some great eagle. His body is long and sinewy, fingers like spider legs. A scar runs from his brow to his jaw.

What might work is if you asked the code to be able to -read- a sentence. That means from capitol letter to period, repeat, repeat.

Any word in a sentence that is face-related, such as, using the above desc as an example, would cause that sentence to be deleted. In the above sentence, those words are face, eyes, nose, brow, and jaw.

What the above description would then look like is....

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His body is long and sinewy, fingers like spider legs.

The code has seperated sentences and evaluated them, then discarded the ones with the forbidden words in them and fed back the end result. All the immortals would have to do is make sure at least one sentence in your description did not include a masking word.

In fact, I think -I'll- implement this idea. I like it even more now.

[LoD]

Do npcs you've gone out of your way to save their lives in the past remember you and cut you a break when you are accused of breaking the law? Nope. Do npc soldiers come forward and put in a good word for you when you have helped out in the past? Nope. Do they recognize you as someone who is actually helping uphold the law by making an attack on someone dangerous in defense of a templar/noble if you are not coded as being a part of those clans? Nope.

This reasoning holds no water in my opinion. And respectfully, I must say that this is the first thing I've ever read that you have stated that I don't feel is valid in the particular discussion, it isn't very good reasoning for a change in this direction not being implemented in the game.

My point was made in response to the people that kept bringing up the same arguement that wrapping yourself up in cloth should realistically make you unidentifiable.  Yes, it probably might do a lot for that.  But that isn't the only point to consider.  There are other reasons why this change may or may not be made for "realism" alone.

If you've read my -other- arguements in this thread, you'd see that I do suggest a way for mask objects to affect one's description.  I believe there is an area to shoot for between "instantly identified" and "impossible to identify", which seems to be the case with masks that completely alter your mdesc.

If the code doesn't make it unreasonably difficult then I would totally rp out those things to give the clues to people and give them a reasonable chance to spot those "odd" things about my pc if there are any.

As it stands, things are most definitely stacked against someone who is trying to rp out something of that sort, no matter how realistically they play it out.

Maybe you would RP it out with those people and maybe you wouldn't, only time would tell.  But that's a moot point because changes aren't implemented based on one person's needs.  Quoting good old Spock in Wrath of Khann, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."  I would go further to say that this can also be applied to potential for abuse, "The abuse of the many warrants changes that outweigh the desire of the few, or the one."

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and unfortunately the Imms must have made the decision that mask objects were too powerful for the playerbase to continue using them.  Don't look at me.  I didn't take them out of the game, nor am I calling for them never to be used.  The people who run game, police the twinks and make those decisions removed them.  You should really ask them why mask objects were removed when people like you are willing to RP it out.

In the hands of many, mask objects were abused.  You claim that victims  now "abuse" situations by memorizing your mdesc even though your character is fully masked/cloaked.  I've played many roles where I was often an attacker, thief or enemy of important people and never had to use a mask object to hide my mdesc.  It's not impossible, but you do have to be smart about things.

-LoD

[RunningMountain]

I recall when contacting someone with the Way when they were hooded or masked or whatever would give you that sdesc instead of their true sdesc. What happend with that? I like that because criminals could get away with a lot more if they could just stop someone from getting their mdesc. Hence the sneak and hide commands. I think it should still be like that, as of right now I can just use 'contact' to get the guys sdesc and say IC I found his mind and saw an image of him in his mindseye or something to that nature.

[Delirium]

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>wear mask
You fasten a long black obsidian mask over your face.

>contact joebob
You contact the buff, statuesque, hawt blonde guy with the Way.

>psi Joebob... I am your father!

Too easy to masquarade as others, even when they should be intimately familiar with your "mind voice", I say.

[amoeba]

Code Select Expand

The black elf's face is long and drawn, his eyes narrow and slanted. His nose is pierced and hooked, like some great eagle. His body is long and sinewy, fingers like spider legs. A scar runs from his brow to his jaw.

What might work is if you asked the code to be able to -read- a sentence. That means from capitol letter to period, repeat, repeat.

Any word in a sentence that is face-related, such as, using the above desc as an example, would cause that sentence to be deleted. In the above sentence, those words are face, eyes, nose, brow, and jaw.

What the above description would then look like is....

Code Select Expand

His body is long and sinewy, fingers like spider legs.

The code has seperated sentences and evaluated them, then discarded the ones with the forbidden words in them and fed back the end result. All the immortals would have to do is make sure at least one sentence in your description did not include a masking word.

In fact, I think -I'll- implement this idea. I like it even more now.

As a coder I would hate to  have to implement something like this.  Far too much ambiguity possible.  for example:

"His frame was lean and muscular."  
"It is obvious from looking at him that he spends a great deal of time outdoors."
"His face is hollow and sunken, mirroring the gaunt look of his body."

Writing a parser to seperate out sentences based on a database of key words, then figuring out with what is esentially fuzzy logic, how each sentence would be handled is at best diffucult.

[Maybe42or54]

Runningmountain.

When you contact the guy with a mask and get what he looks like, how do you know you got the right one?
Oh sure, only one PC wearing that mask.
But there is more than 30,000 people in Either city, so you shouldn't be able to get the guy unless you are watching him.

And venoms.
I love the idea. Really.

[RunningMountain]

Maybe. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying people can do it. I liked it better when you couldn't see their sdesc if they had certain things covering them physically.

[Zhaira]

I'm not really advocating this idea one way or another (I think the current system is fine as is, honestly) -- but just for the sake of mechanics discussion, I'd like to put in a few words.

Assuming that players are going to have to be responsible in the first place, it would be -far- easier to use pseudo-html tags to designate portions of the body, as opposed to trying to parse it out.

This woman is tall and lean.  Her face is oval-shaped, with blue eyes and thin, cracked and dry lips.  Her skin is a dark, dusty tan and she has spindly arms and legs.  A long scar runs along her abdomen, leaving a pink, pale line below her navel.  She has a burn mark on her upper thigh.

Blah blah blah.  Not a good description, but it works, you know?  So, when you're in character generation, you could easily do this:

[general]This woman is tall and lean.[/general] [face]Her face is oval-shaped, with [eyes]blue eyes[/eyes]and thin, cracked and dry lips.[/face]  [general]Her skin is a dark, dusty tan[/general] [arms OR legs]and she has spindly[/arms OR legs] [arms]arms[/arms] [arms AND legs] and [/arms AND legs] [legs]legs.[/legs] [torso]A long s car runs along hre abdomen, leaving a pink, pale line below her navel.[/torso] [waist]She has a burn mark on her upper thigh.[/waist]

Blah blah, etc.  I didn't really try to do a good job with this example or anything, and I'm not saying it's a good idea, but I just kind of wanted to toss it in there as food for thought.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As a coder I would hate to  have to implement something like this.  Far too much ambiguity possible.  for example:

"His frame was lean and muscular."  
"It is obvious from looking at him that he spends a great deal of time outdoors."
"His face is hollow and sunken, mirroring the gaunt look of his body."

Writing a parser to seperate out sentences based on a database of key words, then figuring out with what is esentially fuzzy logic, how each sentence would be handled is at best diffucult.

As a deviant from the norm, I'll avoid arguing with you and ask you to further explain the flaw. Not to catch you slipping, persay, but rather to better understand your dislike for it. I don't see why it matters if the sentence does not just include facial features or not. Why the problem with ambiguity when that's what we're trying to accomplish anyway with masks?

I can understand the point about coding it. I can understand it might be hard. But, wouldn't it, at the player's end, allow masking AND allow easy descripting, as we enjoy now?

Plus, at the coder's end, defining the first capitol letter and the first period as the beginning and end of the first sentence and so forth should make it easy to parse the entire discription. The ability to recognize sentence structure already exists in game, if I remember right, since certian things end your output to screen at your last period.

[amoeba]

As a deviant from the norm, I'll avoid arguing with you and ask you to further explain the flaw. Not to catch you slipping, persay, but rather to better understand your dislike for it. I don't see why it matters if the sentence does not just include facial features or not. Why the problem with ambiguity when that's what we're trying to accomplish anyway with masks?

I can understand the point about coding it. I can understand it might be hard. But, wouldn't it, at the player's end, allow masking AND allow easy descripting, as we enjoy now?

Plus, at the coder's end, defining the first capitol letter and the first period as the beginning and end of the first sentence and so forth should make it easy to parse the entire discription. The ability to recognize sentence structure already exists in game, if I remember right, since certian things end your output to screen at your last period.

So am I the deviant, or are you?

Okay, the problem is in coding ambiguity into non ambiguous terms.

Some crappy examples, but they illustrate the point.
"His physique was one of cross between a half-giant and a halfling."
So what does this refer to? As humans it's obvious, the body or general.  A computer would have to parse it via keywords. in this case "physique".   So does this mean every time we hit "physique" we classify it as a body descriptor? A general descriptor?  

Another example:
His sunken eyes, hollow chest, and whip-thin legs gave him the physique of a cadaver on a crash diet."  
So, what is this? A face description, Legs, body(chest), or does the previosly defined keyword of physique denote it as a general descriptor?

Another Example:
"His eyes glowed like the fires of Suk-Krath.  
Yes a rule could be written to say only the first Capital letter is the started, until we hit a period, but the point here is that the parser would have to could for every possible boundry case.  The english language is rife with oddball exceptions.  The parser would grow in size and have to do many checks.

Ideally to do a modular desription, You would have to do something along the lines of what Zhaira mentioned and predefine each portion ahead of time.   Although I would use XML and simply the entry to the user.  The big problem I have with modular descriptions is that they look and feel modular. Plus you can have some really odd things happen. For instance I saw a person IG who only had a body description, no face, no hair. In this case wearing clothes would make them always masked.

[Tamarin]

I see what you're saying about descriptions ending up modular.  The thing is, I tend to write my descs in modules -anyway-, and then use connective phrases and sentences to link everything together.  I definitely agree that modules would be handy, but stupid looking, but I think there's a way to have the best of both worlds.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I see where you're at. I was not really concerning myself with other masking things, just facial features. The parse could be simple in terms of the list ... I mean, you'll not really need to mask the eyes, since they're almost always gonna be visible. Really, I was just thinking about facial stuff.

I also didn't think of words like Suk-Krath or the like.

So, I guess, NM.