Elves, and weight

[Delerak]

I wanna address something real quick about elves.  I don't see why the weight of elves goes from 7-9 ten-stone.  They are around 7.5 feet at max which is 90 inches.  How can someone who is seven feet, five inches, weigh 7 ten-stone which is like 140 lbs or something like that.  And at 9 ten-stone it's like 190.  That's a bit unrealistic I think.  I think that elves should have a span of 9 ten-stone to like 14 ten-stone.  Being that tall they would naturally, just from bone structure and size alone would weigh 200 at the minimum.  I also think the span for other races weights should be tweaked.  Humans would be the first, put it 6-12 or something.  This way the most exceptional human isnt only 190 lbs? I mean come on, sometimes you wanna make a guy who is 240 or 250.

[Dazed and Confused]

Elves are skinny....

A severely obese human would probably be killed for eating too much by the templars.

[o_O]

What about Legolass in LoTR? He weigs like... nothing...

[krelin]

Definitely toss out nearly any Tolkienesque notions of elves you have well before applying one on Arm.  Please.  Thanks.

[Delerak]

Doesnt matter if they are skinny.  If you are seven feet tall, it is impossible to weigh less then 200 lbs.

[Rindan]

Not too sure about elves, but I would like to see more human range.  I would especially like to be able to see heights and weights that are lower for humans.  I think that a 5ft tall human who weighs 100 pounds is completely reasonable.  Hell, I know people like that and they are allowed to eat as much food as they want.  I am thinking of the lower range mainly for those who want to play starved 'rinth rat types.  I suppose a side effect might be that every other female PC who wants to be 'petite' and cute suddenly will weight little enough to be anorexic.

[the halfling]

What if I say they are -really- skinny.
Does that help?

[Eternal]

I think the range is fine... as for the 7 foot 140 lb'er... I have a cousin who is six foot 7 and just barely 112... now, he isn't of a different race than the rest of us, descended through a completely different bloodline, and yet here he is.

I believe the suspension of disbelief comes in here, either elves are lighter due to the way their muscles work (they are -weaker- if quicker, which implies a different muscle ratio), or perhaps they have lighter bones and organs, which explains their seeming frailty compared to human physiques.

Ever checked out the half-giant docs... they can stand twice human height, but if memory serves can weight three times that.

[Anonymous]

I don't know if weight has any code implications.  If not I'd like to see a wider range, not because the current weight ranges are too small for the relative height capability of a given race, but rather because I'd like to play a tremendously overweight person and see expected results when typing 'ass -v'.

I know its way too late and little to no benefit in reality, but I don't like the whole stone concept if for no other reason than having 20 arrows weighing one stone each is stinky.  Ten pounds of jewelry on your hands...you get the idea.

If we could go back in time I'd beg whomever was in charge to at least allow for the use of decimals.  Having a .3 stone arrow seems about right.

[stinky]

watch the part in the Lotr the first one, where they are climbing the mountain...

Legolas is running ABOVE the snow LOL...

Everyone else is all sinking in while he just kinda glides over it....

also very cool that why arigorn is all dirty and scrubby legolas remains clean  no matter what

[Delerak]

lord of the rings isn't armageddon.  Im just trying to bring things such as physics into account where some things are just really old and out-dated, such as character creation: look at the sdesc samples they give, I just think its time it was updated, and elves weight is one thing.

Well, elves aren't just skinny, they're just... built differently. Maybe their bones are sorta like bird bones, a little bit hollow to decrease their weight. I can't see elves storing -any- fat, due it their damned legs always using it, and nothing says these elves have to be 7 foot, if you're going to make a 7 foot elf, make sure you think about his weight.

Oh, and yes, weight does have code implications, a few I can think of, but won't say, just know that it's important.

[Marc]

Elves weight is fine.

You want a 240lb 7 foot char, app it.  I know for a fact taller and heavier elves have existed via special apps in the past.

And trying to apply real world physics to a 'fantasy' elfs weight is absurd.

Maybe their bones are more porous then humans, weighing half as much.

Maybe their internals are more streamlined with better bacteria in their guts so instead of twelve miles on intestine they have twelve feet.

Maybe their muscle tissue has more in common with fascia then human muscles, being stronger, lighter, and near untearable allowing half the bulk of elven muscle to complete what a full regiment of human muscle could do.

There are a million and one explinations for why elves work the way they do.  Don't lose sleep over it, just don't expect a change.

I'd much rather see single stones in weight (over tenstones) then having the ranges increased across the board (which would be nice for all races as others have mentioned).

"You are human:  Members of you race typically weight between 60 and 90 stones.  Whats your weight?  74

You now weight 74 stones"

[Wintermute]

Actually I believe there are code implications - bashing and subduing come to mind.

I know for a fact that elves get enough of a bonus to reverse bashes, while I've yet to see an experienced human reverse a bash.  Since elves are pretty light, it must be from their height.  Which doesn't make much sense.

But then, I could go on about many things that don't quite fit with the code..

[Eternal]

Try their agility... and it's very true, you can't apply real-world physics to races that we have no experience with.  Hell, science still hasn't figured out the flight of the bumblebee, and we can dissect those lil suckers.

If physics matters to you so much, would you please explain to me how drovian and nilazi powers work...

[Anonymous]

If physics matters to you so much, would you please explain to me how drovian and nilazi powers work...

While I don't think that elf weight issues are a problem statements like this bother me just a tad.

I don't want things to make sense from a perspective relative to our world, but relative to the world in which we play.  Its important that the reality of this alternate reality have some semblance of continuity to it.  So, within the reality that is arm, what is the reason for elves not weighing as much as a 7ft tall human probably does?  The answer is easy to me, lack of muscle mass.  Elves are as weak as children, pure and simple.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know someone will, but muscle comprises most of our weight, doesn't it?

I've known plenty of 5ft tall people where were in the 100-120lb range.  I know its being simplistic, but since that evens out to about 20-24 lbs a foot, well....  Slap another 40 lbs and two feet on them and it makes sense to my primitive brain.

Going back to Eternal's question within the reality of Armageddon nilazi powers make perfect sense.  If you have a twisted little mind.

[Delerak]

then lets just take gravity away from armageddon, and give everyone perm_flying.  You must apply real life physics or else the MUD gets too fantastic on you and it becomes a hack n slash.

[Marc]

I don't think adjusting weight limits and giving perm fly to everyone are remotely the same thing.

Can't you find solace in the bone density argument?

[Delerak]

I know, I had to give my daily remark of stupidity.

[Hoodwink]

Definitely toss out nearly any Tolkienesque notions of elves you have well before applying one on Arm. Please. Thanks.

I don't understand why many players on this MUD are so anti-oldschool-fantasy.  It would be one thing if the game had bearded old wizards wearing pointy hats and good deities vs. evil deities, but I actually think many fantasy books, Tolkien's fables among them, are not necessarily dramatically different from Armageddon or Zalanthas.  I actually envision elves as somewhat reminiscent of Tolkien elves.  Read some of the NPC descriptions, and the help file on elves even.  Despite that some may be dirt poor, have severed off ears, and any other assortment of grotesque features, they are a graceful people, a nation of fair-featured beings (fair as in attractive, not fair skinned necessarily).  Those are attributes which sound an awful lot like Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, or any other standard fantasy setting which Armageddon was clearly spawned from.  Granted, they are as tall as many basket ball players and deathly thin, but to make elves, or dwarves, or even halflings so different that they are absolutely nothing like the original version, then why even call them elves (or dwarves, or whomever)?  There are similarities that cannot be denied, though I suppose it's not a good habit to think of these things in the same light as a Tolkien book, my only point is that they aren't all that different from original fantasy.  I like the races of Armageddon because they're a twisted, mutated version of what typical (you might even say cheesy in some cases) fantasy made them out to be, but that doesn't take away any similarity.

[Nineveh]

As someone before said, on humans the height-weight ratios are normal.. but don't expect that -elves- a completely different race, are the same as humans.

The way I look at it is this.. you have this original stock of elves, the desert elves, at least I view them as the original sort of elves. They are extremely tall and lean. The height increases the skin surface ratio, allowing for more effective evaporation, and thus cooling. A porous bone structure due to evolution keeps them able to run long distances without getting so tired. They are light and able to handle the heat and bone strain of running. Maybe they don't hit the ground as hard and maybe this lessens the stress on their body and they don't sink into the sand. They could, in effect, be running over the sand, and their long legs + light weight almost create a gliding effect. Most d-elf npcs indicate strong legs with less of an upper muscle structure. So they can't swing a sword as well, and their light muscle helps reduce the weight even more. What you have is this very frail porous skeleton, covered by light muscle concentrated mostly in the legs, possibly part of the shoulders.

The odd thing is, from running x-country in high school, this is the exact body shape of the best runners. Extremely thin with well developed lower extremeties.

Don't think of elf in terms of humans.. they're not. They are a different species altogether. This height/weight ratio may actually contribute to their inherent frailty, but be the boost they need for their speed and endurance.

[Sanvean]

I've always assumed elves are hollow boned, as well as muscled differently than humans, which would account (among other things) for the strength differential as well.

[P-ton]

Doesnt matter if they are skinny.  If you are seven feet tall, it is impossible to weigh less then 200 lbs.

Not true not true
does anyone remember the Late great Wilt Chamberlain?
Early in his career, he weighed only 160 and he was well over 7 feet. he was like 7 ft 2 or 3.

I would like to thank the countless hours i spent watching espn classic for that one

[Delerak]

Wilt Chamberlain


Born: 8/21/36
Died: 10/12/99
College: Kansas
Drafted by: Philadelphia Warriors, 1959
Height: 7-1
Weight: 275 lbs.

http://www.nba.com/history/chamberlain_bio.html

[P-ton]

i said early career, such as college.
the nba website only does the stats for his entire nba career. that weight is from the end of his nba career. maybe you should read the sentence fully. before you go off trying to prove everyone wrong.
Elves can be under 200 pounds. Who cares if they look malnurished.
besides you wanna know the real reason elves can be under 200 pounds and 7 feet tall is?
cause the elves of armageddon are IMAGINARY nonhuman creatures in a FANTASY GAME.

[P-ton]

oh yea Wilt def wasnt 275 in his final years. go do some research to how much the man weighed just before he passed

I think this argument doesn't solve the problem with the weight system, some players idea of thin and waifish. Again and again I find the slender spindly 3 foot waif actually weighing 9 ten stones and being 6'3" tall. *BASH*. If players can't match their description to the right weight because of stats, then giving them more range doesn't seem to be any solution.

[DrunkenSalarr]

Doesnt matter if they are skinny.  If you are seven feet tall, it is impossible to weigh less then 200 lbs.

According to RealmsOfEvil.Net: Dark Sun, while being an unofficial Dark Sun site, it is still considered one of the Best Dark Sun Sites by Burnt World of Athas (The Official Dark Sun Site):

Physical Description: Elves are tall and slim, standing about 6 ½ to 7 ½ feet tall and typically weighs between 145 and 185 pounds with elven men being the same height and only slightly heavier than elven women. They are graceful but frail.

Much of the other documentation fits with Zalanthan Elves as well. I figured a Dark Sun reference would be better than a Tolkien reference, especially seeing as our world, including the races, is based on Dark Sun.

~Drunken Salarr & Sykotik Gith

[Guest]

If elves weighed that much, They wouldn't be as limber and able to move as quick as they do. You would have some badass really strong elves instead of the elves that are usually really skinny and can run really far distanced and get places the way they are use to-- Heh since they don't use kanks right?

[Forest Junkie]

Has anyone thought of the possibility that elves are lighter for the simple fact that they don't hold near as much water as humans or other races?

Remember: IRL the human body is made of around 70% of water. Also, this game is set in a desert world. Therefore, would it not be logical to assume that elves have adapted to this harsh environment by not having to hold as much water in their bodies as other races. This would not only explain their weighing less, but also the fact that they can run longer distances.

They're all just Zalanthan camels!!!!

[picklehead]

Heh, well, just regarding physics, Zalanthas isn't Earth, so you therefore can't really apply standard attitudes about Earthly weight to Zalathan weight, as Zalanthas most likely has a different (weaker?) gravitational pull.. if it's gravitational pull is indeed weaker, everyone would have a lighter weight (ala astronauts weighing less on the moon and such). So throw that 7 foot elf onto Earth and he may indeed weigh 250lbs or what have you. -shrug- Hrm.. maybe whirans don't use magic to float, maybe they're just really fuckin light. Blurg.

[gfair]

It is perfectly realistic to make the assumption that Elves are extremely skinny and can weigh what Arm says they can weigh.

They would have a lighter bone structure, which explains their greater frailty compared to Humans and Dwarves.  Their musculature is far thinner than Humans, which explains their strength.  Those two facts alone easily put an Elf in its weight range.

Just for reference, I know a marathon runner who is approximately 6' 5" tall and he weighs 155 pounds.  He is in his early 20s so he doesn't have the extreme conditioning that runners in the 28-35 range can have, so he is heavier than he will be if he keeps this up for the next 8 years or so.

This is evidence that even tall humans can weigh less than you would ever think.  However, if memory serves correctly, weight scales geometrically as height varies.

So at worst, Zalanthan Elves might need to be just a bit heavier, say 9.5 cords max weight, but my opinion is that their weight as is, is perfectly acceptable.