Cleanliness

[Rhyden]

For the past while, I've been playing a commoner character who's had more than one coded stains and other unclean features on his clothing items.

Now, while socializing, it came to the other commonerss attention that my character was 'dirty because he had these coded stains, etc. on his clothes.

But being in Zalanthas, aren't most commoners filthy? Dirty? Smelly? At least dusty? I thought that even house guards were pretty unclean. I thought nobles still had dust covering them from head to toe unless they travelled by personal wagon everywhere.

Last time I checked, you can't buy Tide around any local Zalanthan markets. This must means if you get some blood/ale/sweat/food on your clothes, they're gonna probably stick there for a while. Unless you're buying new clothes every few weeks, won't your commoner character be pretty much dirty? If you're not sand-bathing or for some reason wasting your water on yourself, aren't your commoners going to be filthy? At least dusty???

Discuss,
-Rhyden

[jhunter]

As far as the clothes go there are places you can have them cleaned.

[Nao]

still.. I'd belive no one was really clean. To be clean would invlve bathing/washing off some sort which would involve wasting water. So unless you're a super-rich noble... doubt it. Clothes migth be a different thing as you can clean them... with some effort or coins, but your skin?

[Larrath]

Just ignore them, yeah.  Everyone is dirty, except those who have slaves to clean them and maybe some of the prostitutes.

[Xygax]

Anyone who insists that you clean yourself perfectly (no dust, no stains, etc.) should also probably be providing soap (if they're your employer).  Other commoners are probably being too picky if they're (figuratively or otherwise) wrinkling their noses at you.

-- X

[Forest Junkie]

One of my rangers was laughed at and made fun of one time for having stinky mud caked on his boots. He killed the person for being stupidly anal.

Anyone who can keep their clothes perfectly clean 24/7 on a desert world with 100 mph winds and fusses at you for being smelly is obviously a magicker and should be castrated.

[Rhyden]

The real problem is when it's an authority figure or person with power who's complaining about a random dirty commoner. You can't kill them (sadly enough) and you can't point a finger back at them exclaiming how they're nearly as dirty as you are if they don't understand how unclean Zalanthans really are.

Ignorance does work, but only for so long. Maybe while walking on most Zalanthan streets, there could be rooms that randomly add dirt or smell to your boots/cloak?

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Rhyden wrote:

But being in Zalanthas, aren't most commoners filthy? Dirty? Smelly? At least dusty?

Yes. Absolutely, undoubtedly and always. If you're not playing your commoner character as a filthy scuzzball, you're probably not playing him right.
Now, as to the noble calling the commoner filthy... it's sort of a case of the grey-painted pot calling the kettle black. Nobles are probably filthy by the modern standards of our world; decades of caked-in makeup in every crag of their inbred faces, perfume and oil soaked repeatedly into their hair to cover the scent of dandruff and sweat, and probably some of the stinkiest armpits a lifetime without bathing could possibly produce. They are still, however, cleaner than your average, shit-covered, disease-ridden commoner.
If it's a noble, templar, senior merchant, or a very high-up aid or the like wrinkling his nose at you for being dusty, they might have a point. If it's anyone else, though, they're just being anal, and could probably use a good look in the nearest mirror.

[Cale_Knight]

I suppose I've always pictured the codedly dirty items as being extra-dirty, way beyond the normal level of filth.

[Hexxaex]

Definitely, everybody in the cities are absolutely filthy, grimy, dirty, bloody, sweaty, smelly and all the rest.  Chances are, you've got at least a quarter or a third of the population as hunters, and they're outside all day, sweating their asses off and spilling blood onto their clothes.  Chances also are, that those hunters don't give a damn about what the animals spilt on them, and they just let it dry into their armor.

Now, all those hunters around all the other commoners, who are probably starving on the street in the hot sun (there's that sweatiness again) and the filth spreads. The nobles are probably just changing their clothes every day, but they still smell terrible unless they bathe, and I'm pretty sure that only a select few are able to do that, and they probably don't do it very often at all.

Other commoners who notice coded stains on people's clothing shouldn't be going [UpperClassEnglishAccent] Oh, her clothes are -dreadfully- dirty.  She's got -sand- and -sweat- all over![/UpperClassEnglishAccent], because every job has some sort of way of getting the worker dirty.

Even if you're just a crafter, who stays indoors all day whittling wood, you're still in a room that's hot, because the heat gets in, and unlike outside, there's no breeze to cool you down.  The only person who would stay completely clean in this world, is one who digs a big hole, covers the top in wood to block out all the sunlight, and lives in it, never doing anything.

[Rindan]

Laugh at them.  Really, just start laughing and don't stop until they leave.  It is completely stupid for anyone to complain about filth.  Even a noble bitching about filth should be met with a blank eyed stare that comes with a complete lack of comprehension.  It would be like if you were sitting in a bar and all of a sudden a man came in and went "Oh my god!  You have hair!  That is disgusting!"  It is the same thing with complaining about a stain or some dirt.  It is just stupid.  Everyone is dirty and smelly.  

Unless you take that filth to some incredible extreme, no one is going to notice.   You might notice the stench when entering the Byn latrine, and a Wyvren might not have shit caked onto their boots like a Byner, but your average commoner is going to be a dirty fellow.  I personally think that people tend to take their revolution of dirt and filth WAY too far in game.  If you are sitting in non-noble bar, everyone is dirty.  If you are sitting in a noble bar, everyone is still dirty, but they probably have removed the worst of the filth.

[Maybe42or54]

And who would want to take a bath? You take a bath and then you start really smelling everything and that ain't fun.

[jstorrie]

Take a bath? Bottle up all that water, pawn it off and buy a year's worth of perfume!

[witch]

If it's a noble, templar, senior merchant, or a very high-up aid or the like wrinkling his nose at you for being dusty, they might have a point. If it's anyone else, though, they're just being anal, and could probably use a good look in the nearest mirror.

Yey.. But let's add some groups in game who are ordered to use cleaners to keep their body and their equipment clean all the time. Usually even a lowly aide would have the right to call a commoner with ease, especially if the victim has some extra pungent smell attached, like latrine stains or gith-gear.
I don't think a few 'stained' items would make anyone dirty but.. Heh.. Please don't wear 'smelly' things all over and say "I'm clean.". It's funny ICly.

[Jherlen]

I suppose I've always pictured the codedly dirty items as being extra-dirty, way beyond the normal level of filth.

Yup. And so having your superiors asking you not to wear these (i.e., you're still dirty as the average guy, but not exceptionally so in any way), is fine.

I see no problem with people who are in the position to do so complaining if your equipment has the dusty/stained/bloody/smelly tags on it. If they weren't meant to matter at all, there would be little reason for them being there.

[Cuusardo]

If you go into a part of town where the higher class people live or visit often, or where there are richer commoners, people for the most part are going to be pretty clean.  The more well off you are, the less likely you are to have clothing that's stained.  Some of these people will care if they're sitting in the town's high class tavern, and some Bynner caked in shit from knees down walks in, or if some elf sashays in covered from head to toe in sand and dust.  If you're poor and/or filthy, you can't expect to receive a warm welcome if you go where the rich folks hang out.

[Bogre]

I think if someone says "Get your armor clean" they aren't meaning to say perfectly cleaned. Just presentable.

[Delirium]

I think if someone says "Get your armor clean" they aren't meaning to say perfectly cleaned. Just presentable.

Yep.

[marko]

As a side note - it is possible to 'clean' yourself with sand.

Therefore, you don't necessarily need water or a bath to clean yourself up.  Using sand can do such delightful things as removing excessive bodily odors, sweat, and grime.  Sand, a pumice stone, and some cloth.

As for cleaning your gear - bah, commoners who blather about such things are failing to see the world as it is in my view.  Nobility will often insist on being presentable and that's fine, you don't wanna assault their senses... but commoners getting on the case of other commoners.  hahaha... I guess they may be from a wealthy family and dress in silks or something.  

I hate seeing commoners doing that with the exception of the highest level of servants in Noble Houses, top ranking merchants in Merchant Houses, and highly favored commoners in positions of significant power (like say, a Red Robe's whore.. err.. concubine).  

I'm sorry guys in the cities the vast majority of people don't even bother with such a thing as a sand bath or the luxury of cleaning with water.  Even though the environment is really arid and dry - the vast majority are gonna smell in cramped quarters.  Getting on the case of another commoner 'cause their gear is sweaty, stained or dusty is silly in my view.

[Tamarin]

If you go into a part of town where the higher class people live or visit often, or where there are richer commoners, people for the most part are going to be pretty clean.  The more well off you are, the less likely you are to have clothing that's stained.  Some of these people will care if they're sitting in the town's high class tavern, and some Bynner caked in shit from knees down walks in, or if some elf sashays in covered from head to toe in sand and dust.  If you're poor and/or filthy, you can't expect to receive a warm welcome if you go where the rich folks hang out.

The REAL rich folk very likely hand out in posh taverns that are unaccessible to the general public.  Invite only.  No clean shoes, no clean shirt, no service.

Anywhere that the bouncers let in some hard working Byn stiffs with a bit of grime on them, and then the snooty commoner patrons lift their noses is ludicrous.  You need to get off your high horse.  Or kank.  Whatever.

[Cuusardo]

I've seen some people get banned from a tavern over this issue.  It does happen.

[Larrath]

I've seen some people get banned from a tavern over this issue.  It does happen.

Walking around fresh from the latrines with half of your clothes covered in shit is one thing, and a wholly other to be covered in sand, dust and sweat.  Even though Zalanthans probably sweat considerably less than us puny folk do, they still sweat a lot.  There are no vaccuum cleaners and most people aren't really concerned with cleaning since nobody knows it has anything to do with sicknesses.

Even the Sanctuary, which is by far too clean as it is if you ask me, is full of dust.  That marble floor may be polished, but I doubt there are five slaves to sweep it every time a bit of dust and sand flies in from the main street outside.
Everywhere where it's open to the elements, sand and dust will get in.  A single 'terrible, biting' sandstorm is enough to bring a lot of it past the walls.

Even a Zalanthan will be upset if someone walked in covering the floor in raw sewage, but a bit of bloody dust is fine.  Picking your nose is fine too.  We need more nosepickers out there.

[Cuusardo]

Picking your nose is fine too.  We need more nosepickers out there.

I think they've all been replaced by earpickers.  Seriously.

[Angela Christine]

-If it is just dusty no one should get offended.  Dust happens.  Well, maybe if you were on-duty in the ballroom of your own House's estate it would be a problem, since presumably you ought to have been able to clean up, so failing to clean up would show slackness.

-Sweat stained should only occasionally draw comment.  For most commoners this is a non-issue, stains happen.  Heck, I have a few shirts with sweat stains IRL.  For nobles it could be embarasing, especially if it happens all the time.  Most nobles aren't supposed to be doing anything that would get them sweaty, and if they do then their clothes should be discretely cleaned by their virtual servants when they change clothes or sleep.  People with "fancy" uniforms might be expected to keep those uniforms clean, to distinguish them from the common herd.  

-I don't have a problem with Blood stained or Smelly drawing a comment everywhere but the lowest dives.  Going around covered in blood and gore is crass, it is also a bad idea if you plan to go into the wilderness later since the smell of blood may attract some predators and scare off some prey animals.  Smelly must be noticably more smelly than average, you are so smelly that even unwashed Zalanthans notice how smelly you are.  Bloody and smelly should be fine in the Gaj, raise a few eyebrows in the Barrel, and be unacceptable in the Traders.


Helpful hint:  If you want to look nice but still need to spar, it may be worthwhile to invest in a cheap set of sparring leathers.  Wearing your dress uniform to spar is just asking to get it stained, torn, and generally ruined.


Angela Christine

[waroth]

I also think that if half your clothing is tagged with 'smelly' because your fresh out of the Byn latrines as one poster said and you're sitting at the bar in the Barrel or wherever, you bound to get noticed.  If 'smelly' didn;t mean anything more than the normal smell of a Zalanthian I don't think the Imms would have bothered coding the tags to begin with.  The city may be dusty and everyone dirty to an extent, but not everyone is covered in dried shit and you would tend to stand out.

[Spoon]

I think its fine in most cases for people to care about the condition of people's clothes. What's the point of having this implemented if we're supposed to ignore it?

[joyofdiscord]

I don't think anyone's suggested that everyone just ignore the features altogether.  It's a question of how to respond to them.  It gives you an opportunity to make the particular setting you're in real and appropriate.  If you're in a noble estate, your clothes are probably codedly clean and things look nicer.  

You go into commoner squalor and things can be filthy, often visibly so.  You have to respond appropriately for your location, and from the Gaj on down, that response is probably going to be "eh."  Except in the worst of cases, like a layer of shit going up the legs of someone's pants.  Not even just coating the bottom of their boots.

In the Barrel, blood on multiple clothing items might wrinkle a few noses.  Anyone who complains about a regular "stained" (which indicates the worst has been cleaned off) or even "sweaty" is being a snoot, IMO.

Cleanliness code also gives you conversation hooks ("You sure are sweating/bloody, what you been doing?  Been trouble?" seems far more appropriate for 90% of Zalanthans then "Oh dear, how dreadful.  How dare you pollute the sight with your tasteless display.").  There are millions of ways to respond to dirty clothes besides turning up one's nose like an American socialite at a cocktail brunch (Though that may be appropriate for a -few- characters.  Probably not your character.  Unless you have a signet ring and guards, it just probably isn't your character.  And even they will probably consider the place they are in.  It's worthless to try to scrub down the Gaj or even the Barrel.).

All this IMO of course.

[Maybe42or54]

Well, as we know they -are- non- changing tags.

One your boots are dusty, the wind and your moving around wont change that like IRL.

For one of my Previous PCs in the Byn, he entered the latrines the day before he got promoted to trooper and then just shit wherever he was, he didn't spend much time in the Byn Compound.
Since he got "smelly" that day, and didn't clean his boots, 4 RL months later, he still had those smell boots and everyone was still RPing them like they were smelly boots. Even though, to me, they were clean. If the wind and sand can rip the flesh from my bones, then it can easily take shit off the side of my boots, right? Not Codewise, no, but doesn't it make sense?

Argue my point all you want, there are points against your thoughts of this situation, but I will read your posts about it.

What I suggest, Tags that slowly evaporate.

[Dalmeth]

No offense, but that shit really stays. Dustiness can get caked on, and mildewy shoes can stay smelly long after you dry them out.