Burglarizing the auto-partments

[Fnord]

I'm curious: Has anyone else noticed that those auto-partments that are unavailable, i.e. rented, get broken into constantly? I've experienced this in the north and the south.

Now, I'm not complaining about it. I can fully accept that nothing is safe on Zalanthas. Easy come, easy go, at least for commoners. Howeveer, it's obviously rather easy code-wise, as it happens all the time. I am, however, opening up for discussion how realistic it is.

1) Would Nenyuk care that shady characters are busting into their places 24/7?

2) Would the tenants care?

3) Is it safe to assume that if there's like 5 apartments for renting by PCs, there's more like 50 and the rest are populated by VNPCs? Are those VNPCs constantly bitching about this? Paying 250-400 'sid is not trivial by a longshot. That amount of money could feed a Zalanthan family for like a year. In any case, is anyone in that financial position worthy of bitching and being heard by Nenyuk?

In short, does the frequency with which this happens IC by PC shadies make sense from a big picture RP perspective? The jury is out for me, so I'm askin ma peeps.

[Forty Winks]

Although I have no clue how many PCs do this and how frequently, from previous experiences with past characters, I think a more realistic NPC population in apartments who actually make it difficult for burglars isn't asking for too much. As to what extent is completely up to whoever is interested in the issue.

What I'd like to see, rather, is for more furniture to require more than one person to carry around. That'll make it more realistic and interesting during a burglary, as well as discourage independant burlgars from busting into any and all homes that are rented out. I'd like to be able to furnish a room and not have -everything- in it taken by the end of a RL week. If security was more tight, I think people would be more willing to put their hard-earned sid into chairs and RP devices like forks and stuff...just for kicks.  :lol:

But, this is speaking from a slightly out-of-date point of view, so I can't really say.

[jcarter]

Burglars need something to pick and break into. I don't have a problem with this.

[Bogre]

Mmmm, maybe if there was some coded in security upgrades you could buy, stronger locks, guard gortoks, slavering undead beasts...etc.

[Jherlen]

Nenyuk is providing you space with a semblance of privacy, which is probably rare in the major cities. They're not providing security. There are probably more expensive (and thus harder to break in to) apartments in both cities, but I wouldn't be surprised if my low class tenement was raided fairly frequently.

Nenyuk probably doesn't care all that much about your 500 sid a month rent. They might even be taking in more than that from bribes from the very thieves who're raiding the places, for all we know. The people with consequential monies and belongings, i.e. rich merchants and nobles, probably have the nicest and most secure apartments already, or else they don't need them.

I also don't know if I agree that an apartment building with 5 rentable rooms actually has 50 rooms for vnpcs. I'd argue that the hallways and rooms in the building are all that's there. Vnpcs might be living in a currently-unrented-by-a-PC apartment, but I don't think they have magickally invisible places of their own. More likely, instead of owning 2-3 buildings in a city, Nenyuk owns 20-30, with the vast majority being virtual and entirely populated by vnpcs. That, at least, makes more sense to me.

[Cenghiz]

It's a problem that may be solved IC to an extend. You're really pissed off?

1. Find the leader of those shadies and pay him frequently for protection.
2. Find a shady yourself and have him form a trap of a kind inside the room somewhere.
3. Find a gemmer, ask him if he can lend your apartment means of magickal protection if your character concept is suitable or if you're already a gemmer.
4. If you're a gemmer and you're being burgled, fry anything walking in that corridor without a gem.

[Cuusardo]

The breaking and entering doesn't bother me so much as the repeated killing of the NPCs who rent the apartments by the people who are breaking and entering.

[Maybe42or54]

Why the hell are you renting alone then?


I think it is unrealistic in Armageddon to be a Commoner (Aside from Merchant house families) that rent an apartment or two, or three by themselves.

They should be getting stacked in there.

[Fnord]

I like Cenghiz's IC solutions. Thanks for the feedback.

[Angela Christine]

Why the hell are you renting alone then?


I think it is unrealistic in Armageddon to be a Commoner (Aside from Merchant house families) that rent an apartment or two, or three by themselves.

Meh.  

1.  The automated apartments I've seen are not apartments at all, but a single small room.  Smaller than a bachelor apartment in RL, since it doesn't even have a seperate bathroom or a kitchen nook, not even so much as a sink and a hotplate.  No direct sewer access, not even a handy low window to toss garbage out of.  This isn't even as good as a room in a boarding house, since there are no bathroom facilities, no kitchen facilities, no meals, and virtually no security.  Anyone at all is allowed to rent the room next door to you for 125 days, including housebreakers.

2.  They are freakishly overpriced, probably to drain off some of that excess cash PCs tend to accumulate.  A single small room in the buildings I've checked goes for 1200-3000+ coins a year.  Assuming that most people make 900-1000 a year, there is no way a "typical" commoner would not be able to afford this, but even an entire family of typical commoners wouldn't be able to afford it.  I can only assume that there are cheaper places for the VNPCs to live, or perhaps that many VNPCs don't rent from Nenyuk at all but instead actually own their ancestral homes (even if ancestral home is a rather grand lable for what could be a room or two in an ancient tenement) and need only pay taxes and upkeep.  All those non-slaves living on small incomes (probably at least 100,000 people in each of the two big cities) must be living somewhere, right?


3.  They aren't necessarily renting these tiny, expensive rooms all alone.  Most people are not childless orphans with no siblings, aunts, grandparents, cousins, etc.  They may well have some of those virtual family members living with them, it just so happens that their family is out whenever they have PC visitors or PC burglars.  Those virtual family members are cheap bastards who don't chip in to help pay the rent, but they do cover their own personal expences.  They might even be sharing the apartment with actual PCs using the nifty new apartment code.




People have to live somewhere.  It is simply inconcievable that a large portion of the population actually uses a tavern backroom as their permanent residence.  It is also impossible for practical reasons for everyone to be raising their families on a single bunk in their employer's barracks.  They have to live somewhere.


Angela Christine

[HardCarbon]

The breaking and entering doesn't bother me so much as the repeated killing of the NPCs who rent the apartments by the people who are breaking and entering.

Since that also has the effect of locking people out of their apartments...

Also when informed of the change I was specificly told that the securty of my apartment would be as good or better.   It had not been robbed in the year prior to that... and was empty within a few days after the change.

[Sokotra]

I think the auto-apartments have helped this some, but I think part of the problem is that there isn't a whole lot else for burglars to do.... so the few or several of them that might be in the game probably have to fight to get to the scraps.  

Adding alot more to the rooftops and buildings and such would make playing in the cities alot more interesting; like common sleeping buildings and just homes in general for PC's, commoners and shopkeepers and stuff to store their steal-able belongings...  a few more alleys and dark nooks and junk might help as well...  as I'm obviously all about getting beat up, or mugging people on the streets.  Heh.

[Raesanos]

The function of an apartment in Zalanthas isn't to be a lockhouse.  Its a place for people who are able to pay for privacy and a place to crash at night.  Zalanthas is full of thieves of all sorts, many of whom are highly skilled, so any Zalanthan would expect that their posessions are always at risk.  However, since an apartment has other useful functions, the populace will still buy them.

Nenyuk doesn't care how happy their clients are, being a monopoly of sorts.  The service as they provide it gets plenty of cash as is and there is no way Nenyuk would want to fight the unwinnable war against crime (thats the militia's job anyway).  They DO provide a "lockhouse" type service at banks, so those people who want a little more certainty that their stuff is going to be around in a week will be more likely to use that than leave their stuff in their cheap, unguarded apartment.

[jhunter]

I think people are whining too much. I don't think that pcs are robbed enough as it is. I don't really like the idea that someone is killing off the npcs that rent the apartments however. I'm sure that would realistically attract alot of attention to the burglaries and get the one who did it hunted down.

[Zharal]

I think people are whining too much.

Ditto.

[Ghost]

They DO provide a "lockhouse" type service at banks, so those people who want a little more certainty that their stuff is going to be around in a week will be more likely to use that than leave their stuff in their cheap, unguarded apartment.

What?!?!?!?!?!

Nenyuk provides a service of keeping our stuff safe?!  (Stuff, other than the coins)

[Rindan]

I personally would simply like to see cheaper furniture that either isn't worth stealing, or is so cheap it is no problem to replace it every week.  A rotten hide mat that goes for 10 'sid for sleeping and a rickety hide and bone stool that goes for 15 'sid for sitting would solve most problems.  Your house isn't any more secure, but at least you can come home expecting to have a place to sit.

[Zharal]

If I'm correct most of the auto apartments I deal with have an npc or two, it would seem a little twinkish to me for someone to walk past them with a bunch of furniture.  That truly can not go unnoticed.  Especially if the npcs see the tenants on a regular base.

[Raesanos]

Nenyuk provides a service of keeping our stuff safe?!  (Stuff, other than the coins)

> rent necklace
  (When used in a Nenyuk bank, this will store the object in their vaults,
and you will be given a claim ticket for the item, which can be presented
when you want to reclaim.  Be aware that Nenyuk charges 100 obsidian for
such a service.)

Anyway, I agree with Rindan  the game needs more cheapo furnature.  In fact, most of it is still wood, which is a bit inappropriate in some parts of the game world.  If there is a specific shop that anyone thinks should carry cheaper furnature drop me an email and I'll take a look at it.

[Ghost]

OMG, Nenyuk Rocks now!

Thanks Raesanos.  I long wished something like this would be put in the game.

[HardCarbon]

The function of an apartment in Zalanthas isn't to be a lockhouse.  Its a place for people who are able to pay for privacy and a place to crash at night.  Zalanthas is full of thieves of all sorts, many of whom are highly skilled, so any Zalanthan would expect that their posessions are always at risk.  However, since an apartment has other useful functions, the populace will still buy them.

Nenyuk doesn't care how happy their clients are, being a monopoly of sorts.  The service as they provide it gets plenty of cash as is and there is no way Nenyuk would want to fight the unwinnable war against crime (thats the militia's job anyway).  They DO provide a "lockhouse" type service at banks, so those people who want a little more certainty that their stuff is going to be around in a week will be more likely to use that than leave their stuff in their cheap, unguarded apartment.

 That's odd.. I recall being told that the apartment building X was very secure and had excellent locks ...  I was also informed that the IC security of the building would be as good if not better....

  What happened is that the GM who coded this overlooked that players would find a way to exploit the new code and go on a wild murder and robbery spree before and changes could be put in.

  Instead of saying to the staff 'Hey.. apartment buidings are a cinch to clean out now is this right?'  they said 'Ohh free money better get while the getting is good'.

  Naturally the griefers out there love this change since it will keep people from having a nice apartment where they can entertain...  This of course makes the game grittier.. and that's always good..


  Me I just hope the staff knows who all those killers are... There is something probably not commonly known about the victims..which should make life interesting......

[Kalden]

That's odd.. I recall being told that the apartment building X was very secure and had excellent locks ... I was also informed that the IC security of the building would be as good if not better....

You were told that...what, ICly? Heh. Take it with a grain of salt.

The auto-apartments are there for you to mudsex, drop some basic things, and sleep in. It's not much of a guard for precious items, and that's the way it should be.

There are apartments that are extremely difficult to break into, but they cost more.

[Tlaloc]

OMG, Nenyuk Rocks now!

Thanks Raesanos.  I long wished something like this would be put in the game.

Heh, just for clarification: this has been in the game for...a few years now, at least. But, feel free to dump lots and lots of praise anyway.

[Maybe42or54]

I wonder if they still have my metal sword from 30+ RL years ago.

[Dan]

If I remember correctly, you can only store jewelry.

[Cuusardo]

That's odd.. I recall being told that the apartment building X was very secure and had excellent locks ...  I was also informed that the IC security of the building would be as good if not better...

Of course you're going to be told this ICly because they want you to rent their apartments!  If they were to tell you "Yeah, security in our buildings is pretty craptacular, so you can expect your stuff to get stolen," then they would probably lose your business.  No merchant will ever tell you that his/her product sucks.

You also have to remember, this was a promise that was made to you IC.  Complaining about it on the GDB won't do you a lick of good.

[Sokotra]

As far as the furniture issue goes, I didn't think people were stealing that sort of stuff anymore because (I thought) that the imm's made the furniture place to where they would not buy.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I remember being real irritated a few months back when I brought some wooden furniture down from Tuluk and wasn't able to find anywhere in Allanak to sell it.  Which sucks for exporters and certain guilds that might make that sort of thing and have no place to sell it....

But yeah, it would probably be pretty unrealistic to sneak into an apartment only to be seen hauling tables and couches out moments later... unless you are a half-giant thief with a huge pack.. hah... but then how do half-giants sneak?

[Apartment Renting Kank]

IC'ly, it was stated that security would be upped with the switch and much pissiness ensued when any suggestion of the ways the TWINKIE thieves would get around the change were brought up IC'ly. (See that? Twinkie! Yeah! Yeah! I said it!) So my trust and 'sid go to Nenyuk to give me a place to protect my uber sekret items o' doom. And hopefully the issues plaguing the apartments have been looked at as they've been upgraded/changed. And if not.... well, that's a matter for IC.


But yes, thieves, please try and remember that you are RARELY alone. Be it a hallway, barracks, warehouse, someone once IC'ly said it's rare for there to be any true abandoned buildings, at least in lawful areas of the respective cities.

-Kank with a Key

[Maybe42or54]

How a half giant with a massive pack would sneak.

You see the eastern door open and a half-giant walks out carrying a couch under each arm.

You say, "Hey.. You don't live there..."

The half giant says, while looking down at your puny self, "You tell anyone I was here, I'll be out of jail in a day and raping your entire family the next."

The half giant walks off and you close the door and start crying.

[Incognito]

Bear in mind, there are a limited number of pickable locks. Next up, all of the locks arent of the same kind. And finally, picked locks need to be either relocked with a key or wait for a reboot/crash - to return to the locked position.

Now think from the poor burglars' view point.


In fact, my OOC suggestion would be for doors to auto-lock themselves, based on a timer (say 6 hours RL, just as an example). While this will deter folks from repeatedly twinking the pick skill, it will also permit multiple burglars in the same locality to practise their skills.

[Zharal]

Why not just be able to use pick locks to relock the door.  You clearly can do that, it is to bad it is not coded that way.

[Agent_137 (2L2L)]

because the idea is that the PC and any VNPC family moochers or what have you would be returning to USE the apartment and lock it back, even if the PC is doing it virtually.

plus, you can't trust burglars to be that nice.

Of course, auto-locking AND relocking with a pick would be the best solution.

[Ghost]

This was brought up before.  If I remember correctly, the staff said that the reason the picks can not lock the doors, is that such an addition would make the burglars use those houses as if their own.. Unlocking and locking the door.

[Sokotra]

I say... let them do it!  I don't see how it would be unrealistic in many situations for a burglar to use a room as their own, but they had better make darn sure that it is safe....

This might give some Nenyuk guards/security something to do as well as give the militia something else to do.  Let them check the buildings that are supposed to be empty and if they find someone living in there without paying rent... guess what?  I'd say that's fairly realistic...  

The other problem is probably that people might sit and keep picking locks, locking them, and then picking them again... but how is that different from any other skill out there?  As far as I know, there have always been coded safeguards to keep people from maxxing their skills too much in a certain period of time.  I say let them practice if they want to practice... just as elementalists can practice their spells without having to wait for a reboot.

[Cuusardo]

And just how many VNPCs would you be ignoring by sitting there picking and locking locks repeatedly for IC hours?

[Zharal]

In truth it is very realistic that a person that can pick the lock open, can also pick it closed.  It works both ways.  Just not in game.

[Cyrian20]

They DO provide a "lockhouse" type service at banks.

I have read about this but haven't been able to figure out how it works, any one know how to work this?

[Ghost]

I have read about this but haven't been able to figure out how it works, any one know how to work this?

Help rent.

[Cyrian20]

Doesn't work when you do it in banks, been trying.

[Ghost]

Never tried myself, but someone said Nenyuk only stores jewelry that way.  Might that be the problem?