Non Karma Guilds.

[Thunder Lord]

Non shady: Merchant, Warrior, Ranger
Shady: Buglar, pickpocket, assassin.

50% of available guilds are of shady types.

50% can poison me
50% can run around unseen.

Be nice if there were more non-shady guilds? Or does the harsh land of Zalanthas require 50% of available guilds to be shady?

By the way, I am not trying say that only buglars pickpockets and assassins are shady. It really boils down to RP. But placing IC exceptions aside, what are your opinions?

Also... What percentage do you think are people who play Karma guilds? 10% 5%?

[jstorrie]

More than 50%.

But not every PC has a reason to practice or even branch the skills in question.

I don't really have a problem with this, although I would be interested in a sort of half-merchant class, in the way that I think some of your 'shady' classes are half-whatevers.

[williamson]

What the poster suggests is interesting. Personally, I'd like to see burgars and Vivaduans switched in the karma ranks.  I think there is more abuse potential with burglars than vivaduans. I find playing a burglar fairly difficult. Its hard not to go around looting everything. There is not much trouble to get into making water and healing people. Additionally, this gives new people a taste of magicks and might create enough water clerics to create a temple based clan.

-Williamson

[Anonymous]

To me it's not the question of abuse that keeps Vivaduans a karma class but the necessity for the player to have some understanding of how magickers and magick are in this game.

[jstorrie]

Yeah. A bunch of Vividuans running around thinking they were druids or clerics or mystical happy healers or whatever would hurt the game a lot more than the occasional twinking burglar does.

[a determined grunt]

Merchants aren't shady?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I find playing a burglar fairly difficult. Its hard not to go around looting everything.

That's odd, I've found just that activity to be incredibly easy, to the extent that I do it with every character I make without giving it a second thought.

Then again, I am the Quai-Chin Master.

[Cuusardo]

Merchants aren't shady?

Some of them just as soon sit there and slice your coinpurse open.  They'll wheel and deal you, and swindle you with a smile.  Why?  Because they don't have to play fair.

[Naiona]

Anyone who thinks that all Vivaduans can do is heal people and make water may be in for a rude awakening.  Magick is powerful, in all its forms.

[My 2 sids]

I think the arguments here stem from how people interoperate "harsh".  The three major types I see represented in game are:  social harshness (over coming/dealing with societal stigmas and classes)/ personal hardships ( dealing with one's own doubts, fate), wilderness hardships (not being eaten by big insects), and political/"mob" harshness (because this harsh world usually plays out like a bad mob movie set in the 1920's).

I see your point in asking for non-shady guilds.  I think having an over abundant population of burglers/pickpockets/spys/killers/etc has caused the game to have an un-healthy balance of harshness.  The game becomes quite stagnant and character ideas often over-lap because the majority of characters fall into political harshness of the world and never really get to play out any other type of struggle.  

I think if provided more sustenance for new (non-karma) people than tossing them into a political battle ground instantly (where they are more than likely never going to develop any real skills at dealing with the political harshness); more people would have a chance to develop a better understanding and admiration to the depth of the game.

[Jherlen]

I don't think all of the pickpockets/burglars/assassins (or even, probably, most of them) in the game are actually cloak-and-dagger shady types. I don't see any problem or overabundance of any guilds at all, really.

Of all the PCs in "thief" guilds, only a handful of them are going to be good at it. Thunder's statements that "50% can run around unseen, 50% can poison me" are misleading. Newbies in those guilds still take a while to get really good at sneak and hide, and while I don't know exactly how poisoning works, I'm fairly certain that it takes more to do it than just picking a "shady" guild.

Non-shady guilds can do just as well at the political stuff as shady ones, also. The only coded skills you really seem to use a lot as a political PC are contact and listen, and arguably you may not even need listen. I've seen thiefy/shady guilded pcs and merchant guilded pcs be face-palmingly BAD at social-political stuff, and I've seen pcs guilded as warrior/ranger/fighter types be adept and decent at it.

I don't think the coded guild your character picks will have a great deal of effect on the 'harshness' of the game that your pc experiences, unless you intentionally try and do something codedly that your guild isn't suited for, like trying to kill bahamets with a merchant.

[Bestatte]

I agree that the "shady" classes don't necessarily mean the PC is a shady character.

I played a Nenyuk merchant a couple of years ago, and I picked the burglar class. I figured, who would know better how to get into a Nenyuk apartment without a key, than a Nenyuk? Had nothing to do with being shady, and everything to do with the possibility of lost/stolen keys, or giving out the only key you had to a tenant and having to wait for a replacement, and then the tenant ends up dead out in the wastes somewhere and the saturday bootup eats the only key.

I played another burlar character because I wanted a well-rounded city-based skills list, and in my opinion the burglar class has that list.

I played an assassin class PC once, who was -supposed- to actually BE an assassin, but after several RL months of her existence, she had never actually killed anyone. But she had some kinda reputation for being an assassin. While I know where that seed was planted, I have no idea how it got to be such a wide-spread rumor <chuckle>

In many cases, when it comes to picking a skills list, you're merely trying to fit specific skills to match your character's personality and overall lifestyle. So if you want your character to learn how to defend himself very well, but he favors small pointy objects because they fit best in his pocket.. you might pick burglar. Or if you want your character to (at some point) learn how to cure poisons, -and- be able to track bloodmarks on the road, you might pick a primary class that either has or branches poison/brew AND has the hunt skill as well. Assassin might do this (I can't remember if the docs indicate that it does so I don't remember)..but that doesn't mean you have to be an assassin. It just means that this particular class comes with, or branches, certain skills that your character has use for.

[Cuusardo]

I see your point in asking for non-shady guilds. I think having an over abundant population of burglers/pickpockets/spys/killers/etc has caused the game to have an un-healthy balance of harshness. The game becomes quite stagnant and character ideas often over-lap because the majority of characters fall into political harshness of the world and never really get to play out any other type of struggle.

Untrue.  The game becomes stagnant and etc. to people who do nothing but play the same type of characters over and over again.  There are a zillion and one different character concepts and things you can get into with the mundane classes.  There are TONS of different personalities that can be given to characters, and that can always, always change over the course of roleplay.  It's up to the players to create and find them.  It's not a matter of the IMMs adding more mundane classes to the game to bring balance that the world doesn't need in the first place.

[My 2 sids]

Question:  How is it we must trust a player to pick up on subtleties of playing a magicker/half-elf/d-elf/etc. before giving them this character.  And yet we offer choices like: assassin, thief, pickpocket then expect these same non-karma (non-trusted) individuals to role-play subtleties of having such a class and not play a shady character?  To me this seems like flawed logic.

Perhaps what would be best would be to simply choose better wording for class groups. Because the words: thief, pickpocket, and assassin will simply carry a negative, shady connotation.  


On another note, I thought we were trying to cut down the pointless commentary of people simply posting to hear themselves talk?  All actual comments on this thread so far seem to hold validation for the points made and no option than thus be stated as "untrue" simply because it isn't liked.

[Anonymous]

Thing is, every guild that requires karma is either illegal or closely watched somewhere so I think the point is moot.

[Cuusardo]

Warriors, rangers, and merchants can be just as evil as any other guild out there.  Don't think that just because the name of the guild doesn't sound criminal that they can't ever be.

Edit:  And just because assassin, pickpocket, and burglar sound criminal does not mean that just because you choose that guild that you HAVE to play a shady character.  You can be completely legit as one of those.

[Sir Diealot]

Thunder Lord, I'm going to actually answer your question..  As opposed to get my hackles up because 'zomg I played a nonshady pickpocket once!'

Anyway..  I think that there is a larger portion of guilds that can easily branch (and therefore are the areas and skills that your character will use under most circumstances.) 'shady' skills.  Zalanthas is harsh, and the cities are large and mazelike, so it sort of makes sense for them to be a signifigant part of the population.  

Looking at skills alone, I think that Arm's guilds are nicely balanced.  People are desperate, and willing to do just about anything, and its not like theres been a Midieval or Renaissance period to place Chivalric standards in the mind of the Commoner (as something the Templar would follow), or bring High Society to the middle class.[/i]

[Jherlen]

We have three non karma guilds who are naturally inclined to do naughty things by nature. (redundance, I know)
And we have three non karma guilds who can have a naughty streek in them but generaly trouble making is not the nature of the guilds.

So new players, who do not have karma or the responcibility of karma-owning-ARMers, are more inclined to burglarise with a buglar, pickpocket with a pickpocket, and (Attempt) asssssasssssinate with an assssasssssin.

Again, I think you're being a little too narrow in your evaluation here. Warriors and rangers can -definitely- still do naughty, troublemaking things. Raiding comes to mind immediately.

New players, who don't have the experience of veteran players, are more inclined to use their skills to attempt something stupid. This could be trying to backstab people on the street with their assassin, try to steal something and get caught with a burg or pickpocket, try to kill npcs in the city with their warrior, or take on bahamets with their newbie ranger. In all cases, they'll probably learn fairly quickly.

Everyone is shady, unless they're trying not to be. Guild doesn't matter.

[jhunter]

Heheh, the best criminal pc I've -ever- had who stole and murdered more than any others without being caught was of the warrior guild.   :twisted:

Unfortunately, as he was building up allies to move on to bigger projects...he died due to OOC drunkeness.  :x *slaps himself on the forehead*

[jstorrie]

So new players, who do not have karma or the responcibility of karma-owning-ARMers, are more inclined to burglarise with a buglar, pickpocket with a pickpocket, and (Attempt) asssssasssssinate with an assssasssssin.

If anything this is a good thing. Newbie pickpockets will fail at picking pockets. Newbie burglars will fail to break into apartments. Newbie assassins litter the streets of the Rinth, rueing their ill-thought out backstab attempt.

Newbie warriors, on the other hand, are a menace and can very seriously threaten members of other classes who are much older and more experienced. So if anything, karma warriors. But don't karma warriors.

[joyofdiscord]

Also keep in mind that a higher number of sneaky classes simply means that they are more specialized.  If there were only one sneaky class, it would have ALL the sneaky abilities, and would be ludicrously powerful.  As it is now, those classes have to rely on each other, because each has only a subset of the sneaky abilities.  None can do everything.

And of course, getting a sneaky character at all useful with their skills is not an easy undertaking, especially for a newbie.  There are also some very difficult obstacles to overcome for any newbie wanting to become an uber-burglar (or even an actual burglar, at all).

[Ritley]

Anyone who thinks that all Vivaduans can do is heal people and make water may be in for a rude awakening.  Magick is powerful, in all its forms.

I have to agree with her on that one. I use to think the same, but I don't any more. They are very powerful. A average Vivaduan is a lot more powerful than the average Rukkian, I promise you that.

[Ritley]

So new players, who do not have karma or the responcibility of karma-owning-ARMers, are more inclined to burglarise with a buglar, pickpocket with a pickpocket, and (Attempt) asssssasssssinate with an assssasssssin.

If anything this is a good thing. Newbie pickpockets will fail at picking pockets. Newbie burglars will fail to break into apartments. Newbie assassins litter the streets of the Rinth, rueing their ill-thought out backstab attempt.

Newbie warriors, on the other hand, are a menace and can very seriously threaten members of other classes who are much older and more experienced. So if anything, karma warriors. But don't karma warriors.

Noooo, I disagree with you on that. Warrior's start off as lil' weakling's. Really, depends on you're subguild. A newbie warrior with the subclass of con artist, ain't gonna be good.

Edited to add: I understand I'm newbiesh, but I play the game a lot, and when I say a lot, I mean 4-10 hours a day.

[Cyrian20]

Edited to add: I understand I'm newbiesh, but I play the game a lot, and when I say a lot, I mean 4-10 hours a day.

:twisted: only 10 hours, sissy. I play, run while he is sleeping in barracks, come back and work out doing emotes between sets, Beat that.. ok end this derail now
:twisted:

[Ritley]

Edited to add: I understand I'm newbiesh, but I play the game a lot, and when I say a lot, I mean 4-10 hours a day.

:twisted: only 10 hours, sissy. I play, run while he is sleeping in barracks, come back and work out doing emotes between sets, Beat that.. ok end this derail now
:twisted:

  Yeah, well, I whoop yo's ass with me super-uber merchants!, beat that! :lol:

[Nao]

A newbie warrior will beat the ass of every other human ranger/assassin, sorry...

[Mug]

plus skin and cook the assasin\ranger\...etc(but I wonder what will happen vs. a halfgiant merchant,tailor,servant)

[Nao]

hmm.. merchants are ridiculous because they don't have a weapon skill... it would be luck, I guess... half giant gets a luck hit or two.... you're fucked. you start off with a high defense and meet a clumsy half giant that is too slow and clumsy to hit you without a weapon skill... and the human warrior will kick the half-giant merchants ass.

God, this sounds like it was taken from a hack 'n slash forum... *hides*

[Cyrian20]

I think Mansa should be a non-karma class, All they get is uber dancing skills.

[Ritley]

Nao answered hmm.. merchants are ridiculous because they don't have a weapon skill... it would be luck, I guess... half giant gets a luck hit or two.... you're fucked. you start off with a high defense and meet a clumsy half giant that is too slow and clumsy to hit you without a weapon skill... and the human warrior will kick the half-giant merchants ass.

God, this sounds like it was taken from a hack 'n slash forum... *hides*.

First ritley wrote Well, I  would whoop yo's ass with me uber-merchant's beat that!

It was kinda a joke, but whatever....................

[HardCarbon]

Nao answered hmm.. merchants are ridiculous because they don't have a weapon skill... it would be luck, I guess... half giant gets a luck hit or two.... you're fucked. you start off with a high defense and meet a clumsy half giant that is too slow and clumsy to hit you without a weapon skill... and the human warrior will kick the half-giant merchants ass.

God, this sounds like it was taken from a hack 'n slash forum... *hides*.

First ritley wrote Well, I  would whoop yo's ass with me uber-merchant's beat that!

It was kinda a joke, but whatever....................

 Merchant/Thug  Youse gonna buy this fone piece o merchandice or am I gonna have ta rea arrange youses face.

[Jarod550]

Anyone who thinks that all Vivaduans can do is heal people and make water may be in for a rude awakening.  Magick is powerful, in all its forms.

oh yeah! Prove it!

Jarod holds his special application out

[halfhuman]

Yeah. I'm gonna agree with whoever said that Warriors are dangerous. Because it's true! There is freakin' NOTHING more dangerous than a n00bie warrior that just spent all 800 starting sid on 5 weapons and some sort of heavy armor. Those guys are DANGEROUS[/b]!! One time there was this noob that (as I personally witnessed) survived 3 crimflag insta-beatings in a day, including one at the gates involving at least 5 halfgiants that hadn't had theif coffee.
Worse yet, I could swear the fucker was out to get my brand new character who had no weapons or combat skills.

If there's something that should have the karma bumped up on it, it's definately the warrior and not the "shady guilds."

Actually, as long as I said the words "shady guilds", I've got another amusing anecdote. I had an assassin who went through the Atrium, and carried an instrument with him everywhere rather than a shortsword or dagger. Yep. Didn't make no sense in the concept or the background, but I LOOOOOVES me assassins!

[Maybe42or54]

No Halfhuman. They aren't going to bump warrior karma.

And besides. Bard is code for assassin nowadays, isn't it?

[Sokotra]

No Halfhuman. They aren't going to bump warrior karma.

And besides. Bard is code for assassin nowadays, isn't it?

Actually, I think having a few players here and there twinking the shady classes like burglars and assassins, or even warriors... kinda adds to the feel/reality of the game heh... to a certain extent.  I say this because it allows for a bit of chaos, mayhem, and action that is supposed to be prominent in Zalanthas... allowing some spaz here or there run wild trying to steal and murder throughout the city can make things fun, in my opinion... so yeah, forget the karma for those classes.  :lol:

Oh yeah, and Bards are supposed to be like a jack of all trades... so while I admire the unique type of Bards that have come out of New Tuluk... the Bard subguild can still be a good tool for creating those swashbuckling characters that are fun to play...dotdotdot

[Maybe42or54]

Bard is Still keyword for Assassin anyway, last I checked.

I agree. Like one great Imm said. "Who will feed the scrabs?"

[HunterKiller]

Actually, I think having a few players here and there twinking the shady classes like burglars and assassins, or even warriors... kinda adds to the feel/reality of the game heh...

I agree.  Ironically more experienced players are better at doing this than newbies as they know how to be truly idiotic, reckless, twinkish in a way that warrants admiration.  I equate this to high school freshmen and seniors.  The freshman are lame because they don't know how to be cool, the seniors are lame because they just don't care.   :wink:

- HK

[Cuusardo]

Bard does not always equal assassin, contrary to what most people believe.