Perma death: Love it or hate it?

[Nyard]

Here, I just want people to discuss the pros and cons of perma death.  Obviously, none of us would be playing Armageddon if we hated perma death.

I think it's great, because it makes the game much more immersive and it allows for much more tension.  It also allows for many opportunities to try out different races and guilds.  I remember when I played Aetolia, I at one point had over five characters at once (which is allowed, you're just only supposed to log onto only one at a time).  It also enhances the roleplay because you don't have to say stuff like, "I died, but um...  the Highlord used his powers to bring me back."  Not everybody's important enough to be resurrected every time they die.

So, what do you guys think?

[Spud]

I think there's no reason to discuss this. You can't expect realism without death.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Permadeath is a cornerstone of Arm. If Raesanos went power-mad, or something, and removed it, I'd be gone the next day.
This discussion is better suited for the Top Mud Sites forums or a similar place, where you'd be more likely to find some one willing to play devil's advocate.

[Barzalene]

It all seems stupid and pointless with out a final outcome that looms.

[MorganChaos]

*wanders in to play devil's advocate*

It annoys me a little bit, especially when my character dies a stupid death. The one that committed suicide, yea, okay, she didn't deserve to come back to life, and she would have slapped me for it anyway. But, at least with my perceptions, it means I can never do the same concept again with a character, unless it's years in the future. I want to try a similar character again, only less newbish and slightly altered, but I'll need to wait a few more and my concept for the character at that point will be half-forgotten. So I guess I'm more advocating a different sort of resurrection than permadeath.

Please allow me to explain that this is my first MUD, so forgive and ignore if that was newbish.

[Faceless]

Here, I just want people to discuss the pros and cons of perma death.  Obviously, none of us would be playing Armageddon if we hated perma death.

I think it's great, because it makes the game much more immersive and it allows for much more tension.  It also allows for many opportunities to try out different races and guilds.  I remember when I played Aetolia, I at one point had over five characters at once (which is allowed, you're just only supposed to log onto only one at a time).  It also enhances the roleplay because you don't have to say stuff like, "I died, but um...  the Highlord used his powers to bring me back."  Not everybody's important enough to be resurrected every time they die.

So, what do you guys think?

i used to be on aoetolias bigger brother (Achaea(but i left due to RP degrading and griefers increasing)), i personally think perma death is alright. its pro's is that it does more tension like earlier mentioned, but besides that it allows you to create a (healthy?) bond to the world itself rather on your character alone. for example, you arent stuck with the everlasting quest of getting those 900 billions so you can buy a house. or spend half your life farming an area to get that superduper rare item. or acting botlike to max that skill of yours, etc.

its cons is that it does restrict exploration a bit, imo. people dares less, so to say since if you mess up, you'll have to make a new application and so on. i think permadeath is heaviest on newbies particurarly. i've seen pretty good alternatives to permadeath (like semi perma death) wich works out almost as harshly as real perma death, but it *does* feel a bit silly to be 'immortal' and get awakned each time you're slain... but like i said, there are alternatives  

EDIT: morgan, i think you've made a very good choice for a starting MUD if you're out after roleplay. while arm. might not be appealing to the eyes colourwise, its atmosphere certainly is  

[Vanth]

The thing that I like best about permadeath, besides its gritty realism, is the way it recycles the playerbase.  The templar who dies on a desert mission becomes a skeezy rinthi whore, a burly sweaty Bynner, a f-me bard, your local spice dealer, a crazed preserver.  So we have a constant influx of new characters which greatly adds to the dynamic, changeable aspect of the world.

[Ktavialt]

The thing that I like best about permadeath, besides its gritty realism, is the way it recycles the playerbase.  The templar who dies on a desert mission becomes a skeezy rinthi whore, a burly sweaty Bynner, a f-me bard, your local spice dealer, a crazed preserver.  So we have a constant influx of new characters which greatly adds to the dynamic, changeable aspect of the world.

Seconded. In general, mystery and intrigue would be gone if there was no
permadeath as well. I do think, however, that the staff should be able to
notify you if you cannot find a person's mind for awhile. In general, everyone
should be able to contact everyone, to find if they are still alive, absent a few
small examples. Speaking of, I'm going to start another small thread on
a related point.

- Ktavialt

[amoeba]

I really like permadeath, but I will say there are times it is painful.  Then again, would anything be trully scary if it didn't exist.  It's especially hard with your first really loved character.  It gets easier later.

[moab]

Permadeath is a vital and important part of this game.

However, it is a mistake to assume you need it for an effective roleplaying game.

There can be a middle ground, but in the end, a form of permadeath that _will_ take your character is important.

[Yokunama]

The thing that I like best about permadeath, besides its gritty realism, is the way it recycles the playerbase.  The templar who dies on a desert mission becomes a skeezy rinthi whore, a burly sweaty Bynner, a f-me bard, your local spice dealer, a crazed preserver.  So we have a constant influx of new characters which greatly adds to the dynamic, changeable aspect of the world.

It also keeps the number of characters with uber skills at a low.

[Foamy007]

LOVE IT....... LOVE IT....... LOVE IT....... and did i mention I LOVE IT.

Its a simple realistic concept which I even use in my own tabletop campaigns. It keeps like Yoko said the folks with uber skills down, so that the IMMS dont have to go off and make uber creatures which in turn would kill off more of the lower skilled players. Its just awesome simple as that.

[Bogre]

I love how it recycles the players, as well. Especially when you end up working for the guy who killed your other character...(we all know that feeling I'm sure).  :twisted:

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'm a permadeath addict.  I even play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode now...

Armageddon's environment can't exist without permadeath.  Think about it.  All those northerners hunting down magickers... fat lot of good -that- does if the magickers just repop.  Templar killed you?  Meh, no biggie, you'll be back in an instant.  Your entire Byn unit got wiped out on the coolest mission ever, except for two survivors?  Eh.  They all respawned.  How completely BLAH that would be.  Permadeath is cool.  Permadeath is the tool that makes Armageddon into an awesome roleplaying experience.  Permadeath isn't just nice to have, it's -necessary-.

[Malifaxis]

People that get back up after dying deserve a bullet to the head.


Hmmmm... maybe I should make a movie about this.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Wasn't there an episode of the X-Files with zombies that only died if you shot them in the head?

[Lohan]

I love perma death in all but one instance.

being killed by someone twinking.
as in being used as a steal,backstab, or combat dummy for their character's benefit minus RP.

I believe, (after suffering the wrath of an Imm on this point) If you can't RP while purposley or inadvertantly twinking then you should be punished SEVERLEY and the abused character brought back.

But that is the only instance I've even thought about it being even semi-reasonable.

just my two cents.

[Yokunama]

I started to play arm BECAUSE of perma death

You are not the only one.

[Nao]

perm death is great because it keepps players from having a character for one or two rl years... nothing is more annoying than those uber-characters that have been in game forever and are basically invincible because even if they die, they keep coming back...

[Barzalene]

I don't mind uberness or long lived pcs. I think they add this great structure. However, if no one dies and everyone is uber, that leads to a stagancy, that arm doesn't suffer from.

[Realedazed]

I love the perma-death system.  The main thing that bugs me with RP mandatory games without perma death is that people will kill you repeatedly and bascially that is their RP.

The muscle-bound twink says, "Insult my god again and I'll kill you and keep killing you untill you learn how to control your tongue"

That was an actual quote from another game I play.

Also, my question: What's the point of having an assassin's guild in a RP MUD without perma-death

[Bogre]

Heh, do you play Dark and Shattered Lands, Realdazed? Sounds like them.

[moab]

You can moderate perma-death, though, and still retain the harshness.
If there are difficult / expensive / illegal magicks that can _occasionally_ bring someone back to life at a terrible cost (perhaps the life of someone else in exchange as a component) then raising someone from the dead could be possible.

There would still have to be ways in which a corpse could be rendered unusable for this type of magick, and there would have to be a limit on how often one could undergo such a thing, so in a sense, perma-death would still exist.

[Ghost]

Instead of using someone else as component, I would prefer "The life of the caster's own" as the component.  That would make a lot more sense why nobody ever sees it.

Otherwise.... We would see a lot of important nobles/templars returning from dead around, just because there are a lot of slaves you can use as component.

Yeah.  You want to return someone from the dead?  Give your own life.

[Larrath]

If it's powerful magick, Tektolnes and Muk Utep can probably do it.
So this means if some House Senator or high ranking Templar dies, they just get brought back?
Single permanent death is so crucial for realistic roleplaying (especially in a place as lethal as Zalanthas) that I truly fail to see any point to this thread.

Think about what this will mean for defiler kidnappers.  They grabbed your noble, tortured him for information and then killed him.  Then the templars find you, raise you back to life and you tell them everything you found out about that defiler and doom them?

Seriously, just no.

Magick should never become normalized, especially when it comes to things as meaningful as life and death.

Ressurecting one PC or NPC every few RL years as the part (or goal) of some huge and dangerous plot can be fine, but that's absolutely it.

[Qetesh]

Permadeath..

It is what makes this game so engrossing, nerve racking, frightening and addicting. It is what makes you appreciate those long lived characters and gives us a constant influx of new and interesting ones to meet.

We wouldn't have much of a game without it.

[Realedazed]

Heh, do you play Dark and Shattered Lands, Realdazed? Sounds like them.

Nah, its one of those IRE games. If that's the game I'm thinking about, I tried  it and found it completely empty, so I left.

[Angela Christine]

Permadeath is why I started playing too.  Automatic resurrections get on my nerves.  You die, you are brought back, and then someone chats over your clan channel, "Are you ok?"   :x  It just makes me want to reply, "No asshole, I'm dead."  But I wouldn't, because I'm a nice person.  


On the other hand, I'm not totally opposed to limited resurections.  Like in AD&D 2nd ed (I haven't read 3rd ed) you permanently lost an endurance point each time you died and had to make an endurance check each time you were resurected.  Getting a stat raised wasn't impossible, but it wasn't easy either, so for most characters there was an absolute limit of 17 resurections or fewer even if you were really lucky with your dice.  Realisticly even 10 resurections would be unlikely, because you are bound to fail an resurection survival check eventually and because after you've lost 5-10 of your original endurance points your character is going to start to suck in the hit point department, so it is probably easier to let Lucky McDeathmagnet stay dead and roll up a new character.  You didn't just lose things that can be easily replaced like coin, equipment and xp, you also lost that permanent constitution point and that was an enduring consequence.  (It also explained why every peasant and orc in the world didn't also get resurected all the time.)

Angela Christine

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I play D&D and I have been lobbying the DM to introduce perma-death.

That prolly answers the question.

[Foamy007]

AC.... In third edition: the general rule is if you are above first level you use a constitution point, but if you are above that you lose a level when resurrected. I prefer to have the requirement of a quest for the Char's specific god to have him allow him to return to the real of mortals. Often the quest is easy but can turn into some interesting sessions. Especially when the player has to convince the others that he is a ghost and that if they send/sacrifice that tome of knowledge they just found Grumush will let them return or whatever.

Its fun. But I prefer to a total customized game that is another reason i love playing arm. It is beyond all the other games out there and has a feel all its own.

I have even went as far as adapt my D&D games to a desert/arid environment. Which with the new Sandstorm book out, it has helped dramaticly.

[Zharal]

When my charcters die, I just look at the screen with a blank expression, mouth dropped open; raising up my hands I scream, " Nooooooo!"

[Realedazed]

Ah man, D&D machanics... I just liked throwing oversized d20s.  The last game I played the DM did all that stuff in the background. Perma death would be cool though. Too bad I'm usually the one who dies frist.

That brings us back topic, though. Without perma-death people (like me) take dumb chances because they know they will be resurrected.

[Agent_137 (2L2L)]

I started to play arm BECAUSE of perma death

You are not the only one.

as did I, for nearly all the reasons mentioned.

Plus, my own thoughts:
Without death, there is no -real- risk. Without risk, there can be no true success. Everything is becomes easy, and can be gained with only the input of time. High risk should offer high rewards. But if you yank risk out of the equation, the value of everything is reduced. And by everything I mean the 'sid, the time you spend playing, the silt-horror armor your character lusts after.

I played a MUD for seven years that didn't have permadeath. If you died, you lost some skill percentage points. So you'd have to go back out and grind harder to get back to where you were. The whole game was about grinding in your time as a player to get a stronger character. it fucking sucked. I hate myself for playing it for seven years. AND PAYING.

I will only play muds that are free and have permadeath, from now to forever.

thanks for listening.

[Halaster]

I will only play muds that are free and have permadeath, from now to forever.

I hear ya.  Occasionally I get an urge to do some mindless Hack n Slash, so I'll go play a H&S mud for a few days, or maybe Star Wars Galaxies (that's my thing lately) or something, but inevitably, they just don't "do it" for me.  "Oh, I died, my equipment has decayed slightly to 95% quality.  WOAH IS ME OMG.".

Permadeath is one of the most popular features of ArmageddonMUD, and it a large part of what makes us stand out from other MUD's (though clearly not the only feature).  Getting rid of permadeath would ruin the game just as badly as if we put a Smurf Village in place of Tuluk.... oh wait, we alread did that!

[adrien]

on non-permadead muds I play more stupid. i go out and take on everyything. In armageddon you have to keep thinking ahead or else its 6 feet under

[flurry]

I remember before I played Armageddon for the first time, I had a few qualms about both permadeth and the application process.   I hadn't experienced either on muds I had tried previously.  Both seemed a little intimidating.   But really, the harmony of those two features together really do so much to give the game the roleplaying environment it has.

[HalflingWhore]

Gotta -love- permadeath, without it I think the quality of rp drops greatly.