Perma death: Love it or hate it?

[Nyard]

Here, I just want people to discuss the pros and cons of perma death.  Obviously, none of us would be playing Armageddon if we hated perma death.

I think it's great, because it makes the game much more immersive and it allows for much more tension.  It also allows for many opportunities to try out different races and guilds.  I remember when I played Aetolia, I at one point had over five characters at once (which is allowed, you're just only supposed to log onto only one at a time).  It also enhances the roleplay because you don't have to say stuff like, "I died, but um...  the Highlord used his powers to bring me back."  Not everybody's important enough to be resurrected every time they die.

So, what do you guys think?

[Spud]

I think there's no reason to discuss this. You can't expect realism without death.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Permadeath is a cornerstone of Arm. If Raesanos went power-mad, or something, and removed it, I'd be gone the next day.
This discussion is better suited for the Top Mud Sites forums or a similar place, where you'd be more likely to find some one willing to play devil's advocate.

[Barzalene]

It all seems stupid and pointless with out a final outcome that looms.

[MorganChaos]

*wanders in to play devil's advocate*

It annoys me a little bit, especially when my character dies a stupid death. The one that committed suicide, yea, okay, she didn't deserve to come back to life, and she would have slapped me for it anyway. But, at least with my perceptions, it means I can never do the same concept again with a character, unless it's years in the future. I want to try a similar character again, only less newbish and slightly altered, but I'll need to wait a few more and my concept for the character at that point will be half-forgotten. So I guess I'm more advocating a different sort of resurrection than permadeath.

Please allow me to explain that this is my first MUD, so forgive and ignore if that was newbish.

[Faceless]

Here, I just want people to discuss the pros and cons of perma death.  Obviously, none of us would be playing Armageddon if we hated perma death.

I think it's great, because it makes the game much more immersive and it allows for much more tension.  It also allows for many opportunities to try out different races and guilds.  I remember when I played Aetolia, I at one point had over five characters at once (which is allowed, you're just only supposed to log onto only one at a time).  It also enhances the roleplay because you don't have to say stuff like, "I died, but um...  the Highlord used his powers to bring me back."  Not everybody's important enough to be resurrected every time they die.

So, what do you guys think?

i used to be on aoetolias bigger brother (Achaea(but i left due to RP degrading and griefers increasing)), i personally think perma death is alright. its pro's is that it does more tension like earlier mentioned, but besides that it allows you to create a (healthy?) bond to the world itself rather on your character alone. for example, you arent stuck with the everlasting quest of getting those 900 billions so you can buy a house. or spend half your life farming an area to get that superduper rare item. or acting botlike to max that skill of yours, etc.

its cons is that it does restrict exploration a bit, imo. people dares less, so to say since if you mess up, you'll have to make a new application and so on. i think permadeath is heaviest on newbies particurarly. i've seen pretty good alternatives to permadeath (like semi perma death) wich works out almost as harshly as real perma death, but it *does* feel a bit silly to be 'immortal' and get awakned each time you're slain... but like i said, there are alternatives  

EDIT: morgan, i think you've made a very good choice for a starting MUD if you're out after roleplay. while arm. might not be appealing to the eyes colourwise, its atmosphere certainly is  

[Vanth]

The thing that I like best about permadeath, besides its gritty realism, is the way it recycles the playerbase.  The templar who dies on a desert mission becomes a skeezy rinthi whore, a burly sweaty Bynner, a f-me bard, your local spice dealer, a crazed preserver.  So we have a constant influx of new characters which greatly adds to the dynamic, changeable aspect of the world.

[Ktavialt]

The thing that I like best about permadeath, besides its gritty realism, is the way it recycles the playerbase.  The templar who dies on a desert mission becomes a skeezy rinthi whore, a burly sweaty Bynner, a f-me bard, your local spice dealer, a crazed preserver.  So we have a constant influx of new characters which greatly adds to the dynamic, changeable aspect of the world.

Seconded. In general, mystery and intrigue would be gone if there was no
permadeath as well. I do think, however, that the staff should be able to
notify you if you cannot find a person's mind for awhile. In general, everyone
should be able to contact everyone, to find if they are still alive, absent a few
small examples. Speaking of, I'm going to start another small thread on
a related point.

- Ktavialt

[amoeba]

I really like permadeath, but I will say there are times it is painful.  Then again, would anything be trully scary if it didn't exist.  It's especially hard with your first really loved character.  It gets easier later.

[moab]

Permadeath is a vital and important part of this game.

However, it is a mistake to assume you need it for an effective roleplaying game.

There can be a middle ground, but in the end, a form of permadeath that _will_ take your character is important.

[Yokunama]

The thing that I like best about permadeath, besides its gritty realism, is the way it recycles the playerbase.  The templar who dies on a desert mission becomes a skeezy rinthi whore, a burly sweaty Bynner, a f-me bard, your local spice dealer, a crazed preserver.  So we have a constant influx of new characters which greatly adds to the dynamic, changeable aspect of the world.

It also keeps the number of characters with uber skills at a low.

[Foamy007]

LOVE IT....... LOVE IT....... LOVE IT....... and did i mention I LOVE IT.

Its a simple realistic concept which I even use in my own tabletop campaigns. It keeps like Yoko said the folks with uber skills down, so that the IMMS dont have to go off and make uber creatures which in turn would kill off more of the lower skilled players. Its just awesome simple as that.

[Bogre]

I love how it recycles the players, as well. Especially when you end up working for the guy who killed your other character...(we all know that feeling I'm sure).  :twisted:

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'm a permadeath addict.  I even play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode now...

Armageddon's environment can't exist without permadeath.  Think about it.  All those northerners hunting down magickers... fat lot of good -that- does if the magickers just repop.  Templar killed you?  Meh, no biggie, you'll be back in an instant.  Your entire Byn unit got wiped out on the coolest mission ever, except for two survivors?  Eh.  They all respawned.  How completely BLAH that would be.  Permadeath is cool.  Permadeath is the tool that makes Armageddon into an awesome roleplaying experience.  Permadeath isn't just nice to have, it's -necessary-.

[Malifaxis]

People that get back up after dying deserve a bullet to the head.


Hmmmm... maybe I should make a movie about this.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Wasn't there an episode of the X-Files with zombies that only died if you shot them in the head?

[Lohan]

I love perma death in all but one instance.

being killed by someone twinking.
as in being used as a steal,backstab, or combat dummy for their character's benefit minus RP.

I believe, (after suffering the wrath of an Imm on this point) If you can't RP while purposley or inadvertantly twinking then you should be punished SEVERLEY and the abused character brought back.

But that is the only instance I've even thought about it being even semi-reasonable.

just my two cents.

[Yokunama]

I started to play arm BECAUSE of perma death

You are not the only one.

[Nao]

perm death is great because it keepps players from having a character for one or two rl years... nothing is more annoying than those uber-characters that have been in game forever and are basically invincible because even if they die, they keep coming back...

[Barzalene]

I don't mind uberness or long lived pcs. I think they add this great structure. However, if no one dies and everyone is uber, that leads to a stagancy, that arm doesn't suffer from.

[Realedazed]

I love the perma-death system.  The main thing that bugs me with RP mandatory games without perma death is that people will kill you repeatedly and bascially that is their RP.

The muscle-bound twink says, "Insult my god again and I'll kill you and keep killing you untill you learn how to control your tongue"

That was an actual quote from another game I play.

Also, my question: What's the point of having an assassin's guild in a RP MUD without perma-death

[Bogre]

Heh, do you play Dark and Shattered Lands, Realdazed? Sounds like them.

[moab]

You can moderate perma-death, though, and still retain the harshness.
If there are difficult / expensive / illegal magicks that can _occasionally_ bring someone back to life at a terrible cost (perhaps the life of someone else in exchange as a component) then raising someone from the dead could be possible.

There would still have to be ways in which a corpse could be rendered unusable for this type of magick, and there would have to be a limit on how often one could undergo such a thing, so in a sense, perma-death would still exist.

[Ghost]

Instead of using someone else as component, I would prefer "The life of the caster's own" as the component.  That would make a lot more sense why nobody ever sees it.

Otherwise.... We would see a lot of important nobles/templars returning from dead around, just because there are a lot of slaves you can use as component.

Yeah.  You want to return someone from the dead?  Give your own life.

[Larrath]

If it's powerful magick, Tektolnes and Muk Utep can probably do it.
So this means if some House Senator or high ranking Templar dies, they just get brought back?
Single permanent death is so crucial for realistic roleplaying (especially in a place as lethal as Zalanthas) that I truly fail to see any point to this thread.

Think about what this will mean for defiler kidnappers.  They grabbed your noble, tortured him for information and then killed him.  Then the templars find you, raise you back to life and you tell them everything you found out about that defiler and doom them?

Seriously, just no.

Magick should never become normalized, especially when it comes to things as meaningful as life and death.

Ressurecting one PC or NPC every few RL years as the part (or goal) of some huge and dangerous plot can be fine, but that's absolutely it.