Northland Nobles

[Bogre]

Okay, so there is a discussion going on about closing down noble houses, northern ones in particular, and I think its because the entire Winrothol/Tenneshi thing gets stale after a while. So...I'm going to suggest the opposite. Open up another of the Northern noble houses to get some more variety going up there.

Personally, I would suggest one of the lower houses, particularly House Negean. Okay, I've heard people say they want more history in game, more ancient dusty tomes of lore they can't legally read. The House Negean nobles would be concerned with scripting all noteworthy events. This will lead to fun for the nobles and guards and servants, because to catalogue it properly, you've got to -be- there. So a Negean memory servant goes out with a guard on a jaunt of the T'zai Byn to crush a spawning brood of mantis in the Tablelands, memorizes the happenings and reports them back to the noble, who carefully catalogues it. I dunno, but it seems like you'd have a lot of opportunity for RP there.

And if you want to not be a recording wallflower and want to meddle, what about that Negean Lord who wants to be able to record history in the way -he- wants it, so he subtly controls events to happen the way he is going to write it. History before it happens, but hey, that's Armageddon.

Sorry if I went off on a tangent, but House Negean is a cool concept to me, and I'd like to see diversity up North.

[Armaddict]

The reason I don't like it, is because it seems like the north and south are -too much alike- despite very vast differences.  Even with the mentality of the north, I don't think noble houses fit in as well as they do in the social structure of Allanak.

Maybe Muk Utep idolizes Tektolnes and wants to be like him, so he made some families noble, despite the fact that the northlands are almost completely different, geographically, culturally, and philosophically.

I want to see more variety, yes, but not variety within similarity!

Hehe, my two sids.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think that the game needs as much variety as possible.

However, the playerbase needs to be consolidated as much as possible.

Therefore every new clan or role that opens up should open up solely in Allanak, adding more color and opportunity to that city.  Clans and roles in other locations should be closed, if anything.

[amoeba]

I think that the game needs as much variety as possible.

However, the playerbase needs to be consolidated as much as possible.

Therefore every new clan or role that opens up should open up solely in Allanak, adding more color and opportunity to that city.  Clans and roles in other locations should be closed, if anything.

I disagree with this for a couple of reasons.  For one, I think it is importaint to have a place for players who have been in intense, long term roles in one location to go somewhere geographicly isolated to provide some distance and time to let passions and plots cool.  It is already hard enough after enough knowledge of the world and the ongoing plots to reabsob yourself into somewhere different. A player base concentrated in one locale would make this harder.

Cutting one city off at the knees to enhance another city will actaully exacerbate the problem, causing that city to become less and less interesting.  There is an analog in the RL world. We have all seen the businesses and stores that are failing,  with fewer and fewer innovations and services.  Backwards thinking accountaints start telling people to cut costs to compensate for the falling income, which makes the services and good worse, which brings in less people, etc. You get the point. And for all you nitpickers, it's just an analogy, don't read too much into it. My point is that dilluting the player base there does noting to solve the problem, just brings more people to the place you like to play at.

If you want to seriously address the problem, get creative.   This is a highly creative bunch with plenty of ego to go around.  Bring to the table ideas that would grow the possiblites, not limit them.  As an example, Perhaps under Tuluk should take more of an active role in tuluk. How about having Tuluk be a very dangerous place to walk at night, with those mysterious forces from former times asserting themselves.  Trust me, this would make Tuluk a very unique place and provide opprotunities for different types of roleplay.  Once again this is just an idea, how about more from the crowd out there?

[bloodfromstone]

one, I think it is importaint to have a place for players who have been in intense, long term roles in one location to go somewhere geographicly isolated to provide some distance and time to let passions and plots cool.

A very good point. I couldn't imagine trying to start fresh after having a million-day character in one city, starting over as someone entirely different, but surrounded by all the same faces and plots. It'd make RPing properly very difficult.

[Cuusardo]

I like the idea of opening up another noble house in Tuluk.  Allanak has three open, so why not give Tuluk another one?  The south already has more roleplay opportunities than the north, so I say even up the odds.  There is no need to consolidate playerbase to either city, as long as there is good, solid RP in both places.

Yes, the cultures are similar in a lot of ways, but so what.  Human nature tends to be generally the same, despite the differences between peoples.

[Forty Winks]

I would say that a good way to make Tuluk unique would be to remove the Northern Houses and bring in more of the Templarate.  

Anyways, there's alot of posts on the GDB already about that subject, so keeping that aside and going back to the topic of the original poster, opening up another house -may- add abit of variety up in Tuluk, but there's a few things on the downside such as less nobilty and clan players in other clans. As the Houses are currently, I think they are fine, it is just up to the nobles of that House to figure out alternatives to feuding with their rival, which I'm guessing there are quite a few.

Personally, I think if Tuluk is ever going to be different than Allanak in a noticeable manner, the mindset of the playerbase will have to change first. A change from playing a human race all the time to an elven race makes the player think and act different than with previous characters. In a similar fashion, when those players who are getting abit tired of Allanak move up to Tuluk, I think when change in how the player has to think is evident, then Tuluk would be different from Allanak.

Now the change in mindset doesn't have to be huge, but a different culture and background would likely create a different bunch of people. Removing the Noble Houses, or even adding another House to players, wouldn't do anything to create variety if the players don't change the mindset in which they play, but I would agree that making such changes would inevitably aid alot in shifting player sentiments.

..heh. Hopefully I'm going in the same direction the original poster was.

[Elgiva]

Therefore every new clan or role that opens up should open up solely in Allanak, adding more color and opportunity to that city.  Clans and roles in other locations should be closed...

I say: every new clan or role that opens up should open up solely in Tuluk, adding more color and opportunity to that city.  Clans and roles in other locations should be closed...

:twisted:

[Jherlen]

I'd rather see the Lirathan Order opened up in Tuluk than another noble House.

[Delirium]

I've said it before: The Lirathan Order is a very difficult role to play correctly, and that might be partly why it was shut down.

It's very important to make a character first and a Templar second, and that's a mistake I've been guilty of in the past, but even with that, it's restrictive in some areas and difficult to grasp the mentality.

I enjoyed it nonetheless and have considered re-trying it at some point, but it takes a real specific kind of player to have the patience for the role.

[amoeba]

I would say that a good way to make Tuluk unique would be to remove the Northern Houses and bring in more of the Templarate.  

Bear with me, but how does this make it unique?  It does nothing to intrisicly change the place, just shifts it from being PCs as nobles to NPCs. Where is the uniqueness in that?

Personally, I think if Tuluk is ever going to be different than Allanak in a noticeable manner, the mindset of the playerbase will have to change first.

Mindsets don't change because we wish it were so, what the stimulous for the change?  A lot of the arguments you brought forth seem to be implicitly saying you would like the Tuluki mindest to be more like in Allanak, once again, what is unique about that?

Change is rarely internal. People are reluctant to change, it's human nature. And without a common focus that everyone can rally around, an individual, unless he is very carismatic would have a diffucult time changing the mindset. Someone stated that Tuluk lacks an edge.  I agree with that. What would give it an edge, and make it different than Allanack?  Figure that out and the mindset will change, but I fail to see how rearranging the pieces does anything possitive.

[Anonymous]

I think that the game needs as much variety as possible.

However, the playerbase needs to be consolidated as much as possible.

Consolidate the nobility to one city or another, where does not matter as much to me.

[Forty Winks]

...I fail to see how rearranging the pieces does anything possitive.

That's exactly my point. By taking out a few Houses here, and adding a few Houses there, it wouldn't do anything unless the change allowed for a different environment, or in my case earlier, in the mindset. I guess "mindset" isn't a good word for what I'm trying to get, "outlook" might be a slightly better word.

In any case, I feel there's enough cultural material for Tuluk to set it apart from Allanak. It just seems that the structure of how Tuluk is run being similar to Allanak is the large problem. For example, a change in how noble houses are looked at in Tuluk might make a large difference in how players view Tuluk's hierarchy from Allanak's. Although I did mention removing the nobles houses would make Tuluk unique, it was largely in jest. (There is an entire thread on that here) My reason being, by elliminating interaction with nobles, a large part of the image of the gap between the nobility and commoners, as well as relations between noblilty and templarate, would be removed.

Mentioned at an earlier thread, Tuluk seems to still largely retain alot of its tribal (or barbaric   ) heritage and culture in it's fashions and mannerisms. If more of this was portrayed, perhaps it -can- be visibly different from Allanak. But, how and when such a change happens will depend alot upon the actions of PCs, and so a change in how the player thinks. -That- is where I'm getting my point on needing to change the "outlook" before Tuluk can become unique/varied.

[Maybe42or54]

I always need to remember one thing.

To me, and a lot of other people, northern nobles love that subtle shit. That is why we don't see them doing a lot very often. They may be doing a lot of shit. Or it may just be that I am trying to twist this idea and am actually getting it wrong.

[amoeba]

Mentioned at an earlier thread, Tuluk seems to still largely retain alot of its tribal (or barbaric   ) heritage and culture in it's fashions and mannerisms. If more of this was portrayed, perhaps it -can- be visibly different from Allanak. But, how and when such a change happens will depend alot upon the actions of PCs, and so a change in how the player thinks. -That- is where I'm getting my point on needing to change the "outlook" before Tuluk can become unique/varied.

Btw, not being argumenitive, just that this is a good dissusion point.  Persoanly I would be hard pressed to see the "barbaric" side of Tuluk in practical terms.  Lets say you don't read the documentation, and the only thing you have to judge by is what it is like on the street.  In these terms, Allanak comes across as far more "barbaric" than Tuluk.  In 'nak, public executions are common place, brawls happen all the time.   In Tuluk people dissapear instead, and brawls are infrequent at best.   In Tuluk, there is a whole section of town that has a very artist hippie community to it, I don't see that in 'nak.  If there is a "barbaric tribal" side to Tuluk, it is very muted.  The only thing that obviously breaks Tuluk apart is thier fear of magickers. Personally, I would like that line of paranoia pressed much more than it is. And I still think Tuluk needs a form of external stimulus to break it out of it's malaise, just having right thinking minds won't be enough.

[Forty Winks]

And I still think Tuluk needs a form of external stimulus to break it out of it's malaise, just having right thinking minds won't be enough.

I agree. But also internal conflicts that are much more than the subtle flare that is so stressed. Going with the tribal theme, although there's Muk Utep the Sun King ruling over the so called "tribe" that is Tuluk, with such a large group of people (as well as many powerful individuals) together there will always be strife in the political and military hierarchy. Although being subtle, I would think key political moves would be well-known occurances, and the more graceful and perfect the move, the more acknowledgement by the populace. As it is currently, when too much is stressed on subtly, -everything- becomes almost secretive and on the DL. Maybe I'm wrong in that thinking, but I'd like to see alot more talk of "stunning" and "graceful" acts and moves by the higher players of politics instead of hearing little at all. Not only would that instill a better atmosphere and impression of the dynamics of the nobility and templarate, it would give Tuluk a more different look and feel than Allanak, who's commoners associate alot more fear with nobility and templarate.

Hmm, hopefully we're still on topic.  :wink:

[Cuusardo]

Allanakis could well see Tuluki fashions as being barbaric, seeing as it is commonplace for Tulukis to show skin, where in Allanak it's frowned upon.

[Armaddict]

I like the idea of opening up another noble house in Tuluk. Allanak has three open, so why not give Tuluk another one? The south already has more roleplay opportunities than the north, so I say even up the odds.

Allanak has this!  Tuluk has to be the same!  Give it to Tuluk too!

This is a facet of what I'm talking about...trying to make things perfectly balanced and even and as close to equal as possible between cities, IC, OOC, or whatever, results in things being too much the -same- with just some details different.

And by the way...the number of role-play opportunities is -not- dictated by the number of clans.

[Cuusardo]

I've found that most people who want to see things in Tuluk close down, or don't want Tuluk to have this or that are those who are biased, because they enjoy playing in the south more.

I simply think that it can't hurt to maximize roleplay opportunities.

[Armaddict]

The bias statement can swing both ways.

And by adding another noble house, it works towards maximizing roleplay opportunities?

Damn.  Red Storm and Luir's really -do- have minimal role-play then.  They don't have many clans in them at all.  And in the desert?  Screw role-play.
Yes, that's sarcasm.

I don't think spreading out the playerbase even more through clans will do anything to maximize roleplay.  That's just my opinion.

[Delirium]

Yeah, Luir's is doing really poorly for itself with only one clan. [/dripping sarcasm.]

I've been following these discussions with interest, and I'm not sure there's an easy solution, nor am I really convinced that drastic action is the solution.  I did sort of like the suggestion someone made about making Tuluk more fuedal-style to really differentiate it from Allanak, but I think educating the playerbase on how Tuluki/Allanaki differ and think might be a lot more effective than doing a shut-down or massive overhaul, in the end.

[Anonymous]

I've found that most people who want to see things in Tuluk close down, or don't want Tuluk to have this or that are those who are biased, because they enjoy playing in the south more.

There's a few people I think that are obviously biased and then there's others, myself included, that seem to think that noble roleplay has suffered greatly since noble roles were spread out.  Don't dismiss every opinion as being based in some anti-Tuluk mentality.

[Cuusardo]

There's a few people I think that are obviously biased and then there's others, myself included, that seem to think that noble roleplay has suffered greatly since noble roles were spread out.  Don't dismiss every opinion as being based in some anti-Tuluk mentality.

The ones that I am dismissing are the ones that make it plainly obvious that they are anti-Tuluk.  Seriously, if you don't like Tuluk, don't play a character there, because it does no good to sit and complain on the GDB about why you think it sucks.

[Anonymous]

Seriously, if you don't like Tuluk, don't play a character there

I don't think it's 'don't like Tuluk' so much as 'don't like some of the effects Tuluk has had on the game as a whole'.  Not playing a character there won't change things.

because it does no good to sit and complain on the GDB about why you think it sucks.

For any given topic if enough people 'complain' perhaps the staff will listen.  I think it's much more effective to post on the GDB and find a quorum than it is to send a lone email to the mud account expressing your concerns.

It's not like you're telling a vocal few people to 'love it or leave it', there seems to be a notable percentage of posters on the GDB who have concerns about the effects of splitting noble roleplay between the cities.

In the end my frustration with the noble situation doesn't have as much to do with where people are playing nobles as it is how many nobles are being played between the two cities.  Without a decent-sized noble population in either city one of the most intriguing facets of noble roleplay has been lost.  Intra-house roleplay is much more interesting and complex when there are more nobles playing for each house.  Our current playerbase just doesn't seem large enough to fully flesh out all the noble roles needed to make noble roleplay vibrant.  As a result most noble roles are now essentially middle managers dealing much more often with commoners than with their fellow nobles.  This is all in my opinion, anyways.

It all boils down to preferring one city having outstanding noble roleplay opportunities than two with mediocre opportunities.

The noble role is one of my favorite roles in the game period, which is why I'm so passionate about it and feel frustrated by what I perceive as it's weakening.

[Elgiva]

For any given topic if enough people 'complain' perhaps the staff will listen.

I think there is too much threads about one topic, while the pool (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14204&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) shows half of players prefer not to change anything. Players who prefer to get Tuluk (Houses in Tuluk/Noble Houses in Tuluk) closed are just more vocal about it.

[flurry]

I do think CRW makes some good points and I don't see anything wrong with him trying to persuade people to that point of view.

I have a few thoughts on this, but keep in mind I've never played a noble and don't have much direct experience with noble houses.

It seems like two other solutions to the problem mentioned are:

:arrow: attract more players to the game

:arrow: get more current players to be interested in (and capable of) playing nobles

The idea being that a larger number of nobles overall would have a similar effect to concentrating a smaller number in one city.

I have to add to this, though, that I've had the impression that the number of nobles are limited by the immortals running the noble houses.  By that I mean - you see ads for openings for one noble role here, one role there.  Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but that makes it seem like they want to keep the numbers kind of low.  Or lower than they would be if they just accepted every qualified ap.  In that case maybe the second suggestion wouldn't help.  

I don't know - are the noble houses getting more good noble aps than they can take on?  I'm curious.

[moab]

If the only nobles were southern and we had ten of them, the political scene would be a blast. Add to that mix three or four southern templars.

Why the _heck_ do we need Tuluk in the first place?  Someone explain that to me?

[Anonymous]

I think there is too much threads about one topic, while the pool (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14204&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) shows half of players prefer not to change anything. Players who prefer to get Tuluk (Houses in Tuluk/Noble Houses in Tuluk) closed are just more vocal about it.

This may be the case, but half of the playerbase having issue with something is a pretty strong reason to at least consider reevaluating past or future plans.  This is all said understanding that GDB polls are not indicative of where the playerbase stands due to the fact that only the people who read the GDB and a particular poll thread will be counted.

[Vanth]

Some staff members have been watching these threads with interest, and we thank everyone who weighed in on either "side."

At this point, however, no new discussion is coming forth and instead the thread seems to be devolving into pointless bickering and reiteration, so I'm going to lock it.