Tuluk: barbarians?

[Selie]

Everyone says "oh, Tuluk is full of barbarians! those damn barbarians! Tuluk barbarians don't care about manners or civilization! Rar hulk smash!"

Yet, from the official page, "The society of Tuluk is based on strong ritual and symbolism. In all parts of its culture, levels of knowledge are unusually high, yet practical applications of knowledge were few. The citizens of the north have a well known hunger for art of any kind and of any quality. Magickers are shun like evil itself, and usually killed on sight."

My big point here is the appreciation of art. The emphasis on art, on music, on learning and such, indicates to me a level of civilization. Also, a very highly developed caste system is not something you'd find in your run-of-the-mill uncivilization. I'm inclined to believe that Tuluk is much more civilized than people give it credit for, and that people say it's full of barbarians because that's what people say and that's how it's supposed to be. It just doesn't sound very barbaric to me. Granted, I haven't been there, so my opinion is based solely on what I've read on the official website (and help files) and what's been posted by people on the board.

That said, I think I must be wrong here. The alternative is that Tuluk is like the Vikings, who are considered barbarians (plunder, pillage, burn, smash!) but who valued skill with words and a poetic tongue about as much as they valued skill with a sword. I've written a paper or two on this, on awesome Viking epic poetry, and it occurred to me that perhaps this could be the explanation for why Tuluk seems like a paradox to me. Is that the case? Is Tuluk a strange combination of extreme civility and extreme barbarism?

I'd appreciate some help on this subject, since I'm trying to learn everything I can. Obviously, to my Allanak-citizen character, Tuluk is full of damn barbarians, regardless of what is said here. But as a player, I'd like to puzzle this one out. Why, on first reading the information before playing, did I get the impression that Tuluk was the sophisticated, artistic city?

[Marauder Moe]

That's completely an Allanaki sentiment.  Any docs/posts/etc written that way should imply a southern perspective on the matter.

[Yokunama]

The North (Tuluk) and South (Allanak) do not get a long very well.

If you spend time in the Tuluk, you will hear bad things about the Allanak. If you live in the Allanak, you will hear bad things about Tuluk. Thats about all I can say (I think).

[John]

Everyone says "oh, Tuluk is full of barbarians! those damn barbarians! Tuluk barbarians don't care about manners or civilization! Rar hulk smash!"

No, not everyone. Only those damn nakkies.

People (as in, players who say it on the GDB) are normally just kidding when they say Tuluk is full of barbarians, don't worry Tuluk is an artistic and sophisticated city. Those damn nakkies are just jealous.

[Kalden]

I don't see why 'nakkis use the insult, when it's obviously ridiculous. They should say "oh, those pansy artistic Tulukians!".

Then again, I don't see how Tuluk's knowledge and culture developed when it's been so oppressed...

[Cuusardo]

Barbarism is subjective.

[Dracul]

Cuusardo said it perfectly. Barbarian, whats the word mean? From what I remember Barbaric simply uncivilized.

Allanak is civilization, and tuluk overthrew civilization, and wasn't civiliz...

blah blah blah. Nakki's call em barbarians. And the word is as cuus said, subjective.

[Revelations]

c.400
A hitherto unkown warrior named Muk Utep sacks the twelve tribes at Gol Krathu with an army of terrible barbarians out of the northwest. The tribes called the Elves of Mallok and the Twin Warlocks are among the conquered. The city-state of Tuluk begins to rise under Utep the Sun King

That is likely where the term began..

[Selie]

Hmm, okay. So when people say that there shouldn't be nobility in Tuluk because Tuluk is barbarian anyway, they're joking? That's what really prompted my confusion. I wouldn't have guessed, but I don't know Zalanthas well enough to detect subtle humor concerning it.

[Elgiva]

People who say that there shouldn't be nobility in Tuluk are mostly people who are playing in Allanak, I think. So they think Tulukis are barbarians, indeed. They are joking or loving 'nak too deeply. But we know where is the truth! :twisted:

[Selie]

Oooh, interesting.

My next character idea is something I thought would fit better in Tuluk - the civilized interpretation, not the wild barbarian interpretation. So when my current Nakki character gets slaughtered somehow (horribly, no doubt), perhaps I'll up and move to Tuluk, see what I think of it and see what it's REALLY like. Hard to get an unbiased answer from anybody, so I better come up with my own biased answer!

[Revelations]

Tuluk and Nak have two different manners in which they go about living their lives. Just looking at the fighting styles of each citystate gives you an idea of their mindset, as well as clothing styles. If you like the straight to the point attitude, Nak is for you. Tuluk is generally more of the colorful yet subtle mindset.

[Cuusardo]

People who say that there shouldn't be nobility in Tuluk are mostly people who are playing in Allanak, I think. So they think Tulukis are barbarians, indeed. They are joking or loving 'nak too deeply.

I think so too.

[sacac]

I always love the original.

[John]

Hmm, okay. So when people say that there shouldn't be nobility in Tuluk because Tuluk is barbarian anyway, they're joking?

More then likely (or they're very misunderstood about the game ). Players might OOCly have reasons for wanting Tuluk to have no nobility, but them being barbarians isn't one of them

Having said that, Allanaki characters are prejudiced. Some (especially the nobility and those that deal with them a lot) wouldn't see Tuluk's nobility as being real nobles. This is ICly fine for them to think that. One reason for someone to a person's a noble is because they have special blood in their veins. Tuluki don't have Southern noble blood running through their veins, so therefore Allanakies might not recognize Tuluk's nobility as having noble blood.

Some quick differences in which Tuluk could be considered culturally superior:
* They have formal groups whose main purpose is to train bards.
* They admire artful stealing and assassining (in my personal opinion the most artful assassinations being those that no-one realizes was an assassination).
* They dislike blood being shed publically.

These of course can be twisted around to make them sound bad points "oh all those Tuluki are thieving killers. As bad as elves." But they aren't all thieves. That's just Allanakies (or their players) being prejudiced.

[Tamarin]

Even though it says in the docs that Tuluk is the "city of the arts", the reality is somewhat different.  In Tuluk, you are likely to find more art, but like the docs say, it's mostly very tribal.  It's primarily rhythm based, harmonically very simple, and also the subject matter deals with accessible things.  Because of this accessibility, the music reaches a much wider audience, and is thus seen as "more popular", especially with the common folk.

Allanak is quite a bit different.  It is the oldest civilization in the known world, having never been overthrown since its inception.  As such, its musical and artistic tastes are much more developed.  Some of the Tuluki music reaches Allanak, so of course there is some influence.  But the really advanced music in nak deals with the abstract...for example, figurative language in the lyrics, weird uses of time and tonality, etc.  This music really isn't accessible to the common people, so its popularity is confined to the ranks of the Noble houses, whose members pride themselves on understanding and appreciating advanced music.  In my head, it's sort of the difference between early drum & bass music, or even the better pop music (Tuluk) and super contemporary jazz (Allanak).

So in this sense, Tuluk -is- barbarian, compared to Allanak.  The correct term is "tribal", but barbarian is a much better word in terms of it's implication, especially for the propagation of northern hatred in Allanak.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Some quick differences in which Tuluk could be considered culturally superior:
* They have formal groups whose main purpose is to train bards.
* They admire artful stealing and assassining (in my personal opinion the most artful assassinations being those that no-one realizes was an assassination).
* They dislike blood being shed publically.

Actually, your last example is the only actual difference between Tuluk and Allanak that you mentioned.

[Anael]

Actually, your last example is the only actual difference between Tuluk and Allanak that you mentioned.

If that's really the case, then something seems to be utterly wrong with Allanak.

[Revelations]

Nak doesn't have any focus upon training solely bards, and they enjoy the public executions better than the silently disappearing acts that Tuluk is seemingly famous for. Seems different to me.

[Tamarin]

Forget about the formalized Tuluki training...that is so not a defining cultural element.  In reality, all it does is create a bunch of homogenized bards that all basically sinng the same songs.  So I suppose it is culturally defining, but not the positive, creatively progressive way that so many people are talking about.

Don't forget: some of the most brilliant musicians of our time had no formal training, and I think that would certainly be the case on Zalanthas as well.

[Cuusardo]

It never fails.  These threads always turn into bashing of one city or the other.

[Selie]

Really? I want to play a Tuluk person now. They ARE like the Vikings. That makes them awesome.

And a lot of these threads have had some really interesting ideas. It's enough to intrigue me. What is it about Tuluk that makes it impossible for people to define? I must know! Why does everyone disagree so much? Why does it sound like there are two parts of Tuluk that just don't line up? INTERESTING STUFF.

It seems like there is some city bashing (funny, I thought we could keep that IC-only), but there's also a lot of reasonable discussion...

[Tamarin]

It never fails.  These threads always turn into bashing of one city or the other.

I hope you weren't referring to me, because that was completely not my point.

[Angela Christine]

Southerners call northerners barbarians.  Northerners call southerners barbarians.  From my perspective as a Canadian both cities are pretty barbaric, so both the northeners and southerners are correct.  


Examples of northern barbarism:

-- A relatively large (compared to Allanak) portion of the population work outside the city as hunters and forresters. In Allanak most people that work outside the city are scavengers, they mine salt, obsidian, or collect whatever looks valuable out there because they are desperate, uncouth and unskilled.  Hunters working out of Allanak are quite possibly a little derranged, hunting gigantic predators in the barren desert isn't something many people would choose to try, and it is nearly impossible to make a profit hunting scrabs with a bow.  The situation in Tuluk is different, the collection of raw materials is necessary for the city's artisans so it may be better thought of even if gathering isn't actually considered an art itself, and hunting is somewhat easier to break into -- you don't have to be insane to be a hunter working out of Tuluk.

--  The so-called nobility is little better than a bunch of trumped up merchants.  They rub shoulders with dirty commoners, tribals, and even hideous mutants, and completely fail to instill a sense of proper fear and respect in the populace.  When the south was trying to civilize them after their city had nearly destroyed itself, the populace showed a
baffling lack of gratitude and respect to the occupation forces in general and the visiting nobility in particular.  Without the intervention and stabalizing hand of Allanak there might not even be a city within the scaien today!

--  Tribalism isn't just tollerated, it is encourged.  Years after the rebelion, the army of savages the northerners collected still have not been integrated into the population, nor driven out of the city.  People who were born in the city, in many cases whose parents were born in the city, are still dressing like wilderness savages, maintaining their own backward customs and beliefs.  That can only lead to a fractured cultural identity and future chaos.  

-- The so-called Templarate are nothing more than a bunch of superstitous witch-hunters.  Unable to control even the weakest of elementalists, instead they destroy all of them, cutting themselves off from valuable tools.  Unable to stop murder and theivery in the streets, they instead license and tax it!

-- Spice.  Even the most dangerous varieties of spice can be purchased and inbibed openly, in public places.  Crazed, spice-addled savages run through the streets at will.  Tuluk is Red Storm writ large, a place of lawlessness and disorder.

--  Fashion.  Tuluki fashions show a deplorable lack of decorum and good taste.


Examples of Allanaki Barbarism:

Lack of apreciation for the arts, nobels sexing up commoners, the existance of half-noble bastards, public torture and executions, vulgar displays of magick, crude art and archetecture, rampent crime with criminals allowed to take over a large section of the city, elementalists allowed to take over a large section of the city, superstitious fear of spice, etc.


No one in Zalanthas is promoting multi-culturalism, so if people are different than you, they must be inferior.  The people who do not live the way you live are sub-human.  It isn't necessary to point out thatl the people who live in Red Storm or the Tablelands barbarians, because it is obvious that they are not civilized people.  The two big cities are in competition, and they are not good sports about it.


Angela Christine

[Ghost]

Nice to see you again, AC.

[Qetesh]

First, this has been an interesting thread and I've enjoyed readinga a good deal of it.

Ac is on point as almost always.

The two big cities are in competition, and they are not good sports about it.

It's that simple. There may be some history on either side that you can pull up to explain it I am sure, but at the base form, it's just name calling and both cities do it. Savages, Barbarians, infidels.. Anything that makes the other city seem crass, ill educated, Brutal and unsavory.

[Selie]

I was asking from an OOC perspective. I can't get a good view of Tuluki culture in-game because even my character will have a bias. I was expecting to find unbiased OOC opinions, but it seems like people get "colored" by whichever city they prefer to play in. Which, in itself, is an answer.

Thanks, AC, for taking IC and OOC and putting them together so that I feel like I have a pretty complete answer.

[sacac]

Damn, lost a bet. Couldn't hold out one more day AC?
J/k

Great insights AC. You have changed my views. And thanks for siding eith me on the spice part.

[Cuusardo]

It's rather hypocritcal of Nakkis to call Tuluki nobles barbarians because they associate with commoners, when Nakki nobles sleep with them.  But then again, no one said that it's fair.

[Dracul]

Of course it doesn't have to be fair, they're barbarians afterall.

Err, wait. Whos side am I on?

[spawnloser]

Selie:  Um...one thing I saw and thought I would touch on, the word barbarian when used to describe someone is a bit misleading.  It is a word heavy with emotional connotation, calling up images of vikings (mentioned) or only partially cured leather and fur covered, slobbering psychos out to rape and pillage.

There isn't any tribe/organization that you could play in that is quite that bad.  Those sorts of people are relatively one-dimensional and not very interesting to interact with, and I'd also say play.

Tamarin: It doesn't matter how good you are, or even if you're the most brillian musician of all time.  In Tuluk, you're still not as good (in a broader sense, don't take this use of 'good' to mean skilled) as a member of the Poet's Circle.  Going to your earlier post, how can you tell if something is 'harmonically very simple' in a text-based media like a MUD?  I would also like to mention that there are older civilizations than Allanak still in existance.  Have fun figuring out who/where it/they are.

[Selie]

The thing is, the general perception abuot the vikings is, as far as I can tell from what I've studied, a misconception. The ultimate viking hero was a warrior-poet. They created great and lengthy poems, composed with careful attention to meter and rhyme and including very elaborate alliteration and other literary devices. If you've ever heard a musically-performed presentation of one of the old "eddas" (I hope I'm not getting this wrong), it's amazing how "civilized" it sounds. The musical accompaniment and melodic line is simple and stirring, and the words flow so that even if you don't understand the original tongue, you can still tell that the diction is intentional and very carefully chosen. It's beautiful. They also valued crafters and were very interested in beautifully-made jewelry and weaponry. They liked practicality, but that practicality could and would be made beautiful. I'm fascinated by how barbaric they were (pillage and burn) and yet how beautiful and artistic their creations were. Really, when you think of a real viking warrior, do you picture a man who can enter and win an improvisational verbal battle of poetry before he even lifts his sword? No? And yet that is what they did.

I wanted to make a post discussing the importance of the spoken word in Zalanthas, since oral-based cultures tended to value the spoken word much more seriously than written cultures. If you give your word, or make an oral vow, that becomes a representation of you. If someone tells lies about you, you have to correct them and you have to do it eloquently, because the words that are spoken about you become your character. Spoken words almost take on a magical property. It's fascinating. But that's a tangent.

Anyway, I am now convinced that I can have a very dim understanding of Tuluk if I think of the viking poetry, so that I might be able to make a Tuluk character that will fit in well enough for me to experience the rest firsthand. ^_^

[spawnloser]

Yes, I wasn't intending for viking and the slobbering psychos to be all in one group.  You are right.  They popular image of vikings IS a misconception.  They were still barbaric, though, in that they performed sacrifices (including human) and did rape and pillage.  They were more civilized than that would lead most to think, in that they were artistic, as you have said.  I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't popular image that Tuluk would have something in common with, and nor would Tuluk have much more than the 'warrior/poet' concept that you brought up, ie they don't rape and pillage much.

[O]

Did you know the Vikings used to take Flyagarics (magic mushrooms) to go Beserk before going into battle?

Quite a scary image really - a tripping Viking with an axe hurtling towards you.

If rape and pillage are the pre-requisites for being a barbarian - so were the Greeks, Romans, English, French, Americans...in fact, sooo many conquering forces. I think most early cultures used human sacrifice too.  I wouldn't really disagree with calling this a barbaric act, but I believe it's more a subjective term of propaganda used to instill fear and diminish their cultures and justify and bolster the other side.

I've heard both cities called barbaric - which I think is about right.