Response to slaving thread thus far...

[ShaiHulud]

I really like the idea.  I don't know if was said before, but I think this will make all those escaped mul concepts I see alot more fun and realistic, as they would likely bring alot of coin to be returned to their masters.  I would like to create a concept of being an escaped slave(mul or otherwise) just in hopes of them coming after me.  The story, short or not would be a great opportunity for rp and fun for all involved.
Maybe that is more like bounty hunting than slaving. *shrugs*

If this goes through..I will definately make up an escaped slave and be a known target by slavers. *barrier*

[Dracul]

No PCs will be forced to play slaves

Naiona had said this -several- times. The imposed system will mainly be the borsail slavers going after npcs. Gith, nomads, wild beasts. On the -rare- ocassion where they go after pcs, first of all, they have to capture them

Don't want to be captured? Put up a good fight, cut down one of the slavers, then put an arrow in one of their throats as you jump up your kank, and flee.
They might accidentally kill you in the process. Oh, and if they do capture you (if you didn't bribe them to leave you bed) your buddies can buy you, you can try to escape, etc. (its in the imms post afterall...). Or you can choose to store your pc.

Oh, you don't want to store? Would you rather have been eaten by a scrab, cut down by gith , or ________?

I'm coming off kinda harsh because although I'd rather have not, I read all the posts in the slaving threads, and keep seeing people reference things as arguments which Naiona specifically did not say.


First of all, this exists virtually, so it should exist. Period. But I'm sure there will be a leader within the slavers, and there will be all the slaver pcs. There may be another pc whose job might be specifically to handle the incoming slaves (which would be...mostly npcs).

IF you choose to play a slave...as someone pointed out, the byn buys slaves. Hell, to some people, free food, free water. Training. Why bother trying to not be a slave? Afterall, you can always make a break for it later...

There are -a lot- of opportunies for the slaves. I alone have though of several routes, and think it would be fun to be enslaved now. If you are enslaved, and are so utterly hopless as a character (ICly) that you cannot find your way out of it, and then still want to play....

>>There will probally be a time of intensive rp with a PC who will 'break you in' as a slave. Now, there should of course be an ooc asking for graphic violence, which if allowed...well there will be graphic violence , if not...it'll be less detailed.

>>Depending on your character you may be given some small tasks, although likely there will be a small time where you are locked within a compound (and considering for pc interaction, maybe some barracks, or....who knows)

>>You could at anytime be bought up by the Byn. Escape, or be bought by a noblehouse. Eventually, you will be sold off.
And I'm completely forgetting the arena...yup.


Now if this happens to you...too much? Store...consider it you died, shit happens...alot. Whats wrong with it turning you into a vnpc rather than outright killing you.

One thing I'll say if you end up being a slave the change ldesc stands here waiting to the side.  Yeah...could be boring...but I remmeber one character...who did an incredible job as someones aide. Stood off...didnt do much herself. But emoted...(being ICly quiet doesnt mean being oocly quiet) and set the scene...she did -such- an amazing job I was wowed.

[Bestatte]

Dracul, I haven't seen anyone say they "refuse to play a slave," or that they would like to start their character out as a slave.

Most of us have only one concern:

IF our PC is captured, and IF we are enslaved, and IF we WANT to roleplay that slavery out and -not- store our character/escape/pay for freedom - then there needs to be an actual program in place to accommodate this.

If there is no program in place to accommodate this, THEN - if I understand everyone else's concerns correctly (and since some agreed with me so I have to assume so), THEN - we think it isn't a good idea.

Otherwise, awesome.

[Cale_Knight]

The imposed system will mainly be the borsail slavers going after npcs. Gith, nomads, wild beasts.

This is already in place.

[amoeba]

Dracul, you may want to read the responses a little closer. The arguements you reference are from people chomping at the bit to -be- slaves. Go figure.  Never knew there would be so many.  I'm not one of them and I think the issue of what to do if you are captured and -don't- want to be one have been addressed well.

[Dracul]

Well I apologize for misreading some of the posts then, it seems then I looked at them in a wrong light.

Although another comment to add, I think Naiona or Vanth reccomended special apps...I would hope that ICly enslaved characters, could just continue playing without any need to get approval for playing a slave. Which might be as it is anyways.

But again, sorry that I must have read some things incorrectly. Everything still stands though.

[Morrolan]

I would like to second the idea of a slave-gladiator culture (the movie Gladiator itself, but also many other historical references are available...some of them on the Gladiator DVD).  RPTs for the new clan could be posted in the taverns of Allanak--specifically for Arena shows.  One a week (RL)?  One a month (RL)?

As far as getting into the clan:

There were people in the Roman Empire who actually volunteered from gladitorial slavery.  That would also make sense in the Tektolnes Ampitheater of Death and Glory (tm).  Also, captured criminals, war captives, wild beasts, and such were used in the games.

Other thoughts:

Yes, I think this might be a bit of a drain on applications to other fighting organizations--noble houses, the Byn, the Guards of the city-states.  I also think that it would add a new dimension of roleplay that would not only be exciting for the players involved, but also link to:

a) Everyday lives of the commoners--something to talk about with one another at the tavern.  Arguments, bets, fights, and the dreams of the commoner of having their names on all the city's lips.

b) The noble houses (I)--Borsail would have a reason to go on their raids, though virtual raids would certainly happen as well. [Allowing for special-apped characters, beasts loaded by imms, etc.]

c)  The noble houses (II)--Other noble houses could sponsor specific slaves for training, either purchased slaves or soldiers who have had discipline problems.  Also, since there would be regular arena events in Allanak, once in a while houses could sponsor non-slave champions.

d)  Politics--assassins sneaking poisons onto the blades of gladiators, nobles making bets, giving rewards, and getting public exposure, as well as getting into trouble and being forced to become gladiators themselves.  Templars getting to speak before audiences, extolling loyalty to Tektolnes.

e) Economy--Houses requesting special armor and weapons for their champions: picked for showmanship as much as effectiveness.  Houses showing off their wealth and power, possibly helping recruiting efforts.  PC merchants know that there will be players in the area in a festive mood!

f)  OOC--players will get a chance to see some good emoting in combat, take part in politics and dramas (at one level or another), and have a chance to gather and interact to discuss more than the latest dangers on the roads or harshness of the sandstorms.

g)  The current slavery discussion--If players are to be kept as slaves, this will be one option for the more combat oriented characters.  It answers the questions of giving the players something to do.

Okay, I was going to write more, but instead...thank you for reading this far.  I hope I have contributed to the discussion, and comments are appreciated.

Morrolan

[ShaiHulud]

Great post Morrolan.  If that doesn't win the pessimists over I don't know what will.

[Northlander]

I feel there's merit in introducing this for a test period even if retirement is the only way out for the friend- and penniless. Sure, it's a new type of character-ending raiders. Only raiders which are accepted by society and give away several believable options of escape.

Wandering independents should by some things be specifically targeted as it's a highly risky thing to be. Life should be easier in groups and there should be strong feelings both within these and between them.

PCs always make big impacts in player psyches. This slaving won't have to be on a large scale for its effects to be felt. Have a trial, it'll be fun.

[HardCarbon]

Great post Morrolan.  If that doesn't win the pessimists over I don't know what will.

Heck.. I'll just put nice fat bounties  on the heads of slavers... The ones from the enemy city of course...  Expensive.. but fun.

[jstorrie]

You're also asking templars and slavers to remember that you're a former Tuluk/Nak citizen returning home. All I see is a slave's collar.

The Nakkis may be inclined to do that sort of thing, but Tulukis actually have their freeman status tattooed on the backs of their hands.

[Alamos]

I recall that players could apply for a gladiator PC which could be played on special occasions.  I never played one so I'm not sure how exactly IMMs and PCs coordinated in order to use the gladiator characters during arena events, BUT I'm fairly certain there was a time when this system existed.

The interesting point here is that the player who possessed the gladiator PC was still allowed to have a 'main' character which they would play the majority of the time (if I remember correctly).

This could create the option for an enslaved character's player to request his avatar be turned into a 'secondary' 'on-demand' type of character.  The player could revisit his slave when it would be appropriate for him to play out important actions IC, such as arena fighting, or any other unusual task that might be given to the untrusted, non-elite slave caste.  Meanwhile, when the player has nothing to do with his slave, the slave can go about his virtual duties while the player enjoys Armageddon in the form of his new, primary character.  This way, the player can still play out the life of his slave, and be involved in the interesting character development inherent to the process, and avoid the majority of time that would be spent doing boring chores or nothing at all.

I do not see how an enslaved character captured after childhood can be played regularly and have any fun or meaningful roles because of how slavery works in Zalanthas.  Sure, it is a common and even fundamental role in the world, but not a role meant for the players of the game world.  Anyone attempting to devote their time to such a role will have to be either a very, very special breed of roleplayer, or have a very, very special scheme worked out with the staff.

I cannot provide proof of this gladiator character system, so I may have just pulled it out of very dark place responsible for a number of nasty and impure things, but if this system did exist successfully at one time, then I don't see how the concept cannot be implemented once again in this scenario.

The major concern I'm sure all of you have is *OH NO* Two characters at once?!?!?!  HAX!  SPLOITZ!  Let me just say this before you go to the bad bad place of power abuse.  The IMMs of Armageddon already have a system in place to deal with this.  Karma.  A player's karma represents his relationship with the staff and can be used to judge whether such a circumstance would be handled appropriately.  This option would not necessarily be available to every Amos who got his ass branded.

Well?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Not to hijack Naiona's thread, or to discourage anyone from expressing their opinions, but I wanted to share my thoughts on playing out the role of a captured slave.  This is just my opinion and not necessarily shared by other staff.

A slave captured as an adult is very unlikely to gain enough trust ICly to be given any interesting tasks, like assistant, guard, or even pleasure slave.  They are much more likely to be used for menial labor or breeding.  The probability of attempts to escape or attack is high, and most likely, PC nobles would be insulted from such dangerous potential.

And while I absolutely agree that the idea of playing out the psychological changes of coming to terms with being enslaved, is really cool and sounds like it would be fun to play, it's a role requiring intensive OOC trust and patience.  Even with the best of intentions, it's really hard for imms and leaders to coordinate enough roleplay for a slave that has no trust and has to be closely locked up all the time, particularly if most of their tasks are virtual.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's something that should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, with staff coordination, as Naiona's suggested: through special app.

I made my first post fully understanding the difficulties of making a captured slave into a viable and interesting role for a player character, having played extensively in House Borsail.

I've bolded the portion of Vanth's post that I want to respond to specifically.

I remember I once E-mailed Tlaloc asking if I could be a mul slave of the T'zai Byn.  He replied saying that since mul slaves owned by the Byn weren't allowed to leave the compound, it wasn't a role he was willing to give to a PC.  But then he changed his mind.  He modified the Byn's policy in order to lighten the restrictions on muls with an eye for player characters.  Then he let me and a few others play slaves for the Byn.  No one's head imploded.  No one went out of character to say "This is ridiculous!  The T'zai Byn's policy previously disallowed mul slaves to leave the compound!"  The MUD wasn't destroyed in a hail of fire and ash.  All that happened is that a couple of players who were allowed to play muls in the Byn ended up having a great time (not me, unfortunately, partly because I didn't grasp the mentality of a slave well enough, and partly because I fell off the Shield Wall and died on my first mission.)

Yes, that's right.  Tlaloc changed things around to make the role of a slave more playable in his clan, and succeeded.

The same thing could happen here.

The special application system is a good idea, because immortals should be able to evaluate whether or not a player is capable of handling the role of a slave.  It's no easy task.

Also, the player should be able to outline in their special application exactly what they want their character to do for whatever clan owns them now that they're a slave, be it guard, assistant, or pleasure slave.

Finally, the player should agree OOCly not to escape without getting approval from their clan immortals, just like slave players must do now (I assume, anyway).  That way the players of those who own them will have enough OOC trust of the slave to allow them to do important tasks.

Anyway, that's a rudimentary system that I think could work to allow captured characters to become slave characters.  I figure if I'm saying what should happen, I should also say how it should happen.

[adrien]

well i dont mind if im catured and turned into a slave but the world is big and well il run to a safe spot if i can and have some fun rping the torment and life of a outcast

[jmordetsky]

Unlike raider groups of the past, there will be a real and very good reason for the PC slavers to focus mainly on NPCs - their own survival and income. If this is implemented, slaving houses participating will not provide all the yummy perks to slavers that normal guards get. Instead, these filthy, mercenary scumbags will be expected to earn their own keep and equipment. They will also be paid for things like gith, halflings, mantis, various lizards and other various nasty vermin for the arena. If something were implemented in Tuluk, we'd find a similar way for them to focus mainly on NPCs, as well. This is not meant to turn Borsail into the PC bullies of the known world any more then they already are. It is meant to flesh out the role of a slaving house more then it currently is as implemented.

I think this is an AWESOME IDEA that will create an excellent dynamic to the game. However, I would like to see, and I think this is critical

•   You must increase the number of non-aggro  or aggro slavable NPCs that are in the desert.

Otherwise you'll just have PC slavers trying to enslave the few PCs they run across in the desert.  When I say desert based NPCs the things I mean are:

1)   Social dwellings that don't fall under Allanaki rule. IE Small tribal villages, desert cave dwellers, a small family taken up in a broken down wagon etc, etc, etc
2)   Wandering nomads both human, elven, half-elven
3)   Small or solo Gith scouting parties
4)   Small level (non-merchant house) caravans

In order to avoid the PC tribal, hunter and desert elf populations  being constantly targeted by slavers, there will need to be other alternatives. This would help bolster the raiding community as well which are a similar mindset really, I can see raiders killing off adults, taking all the goods and selling the children to Borsail.

The other thing is to randomly generate NPC spawn locations. The last thing we want is to see the same thing we see with hunters who login after reboot and run to all the spawn points.  Plus being a slaver who targeted NPCs rather then PCs would be fun for about 10 minutes until you figured out all the "hotspots".

Any way, love the idea of PC slavers. Not so keen on too many PCs being enslaved (for obvious reasons) However, if executed correctly, this will ROCK.

The important thing to remeber is that PC being enslaved is similar to it being killed depending on the players mindset. Being killed sucks, but arm wouldn't be arm if you didn't run the risk of being killed. The issue is playability, and keeping it limited  so that in the first two weeks of implementation the entire community of desert travellers aren't enslaved by the new community of slavers.


EDIT: (someone's PM made me want to elaborate on this a bit more)

When I first head about this, I was like, "Um what? No."

But I've been a firm proponent that we need more support of the raider role. We have tons of support for hunters....etc.

To me slaving is just raiding...but taking prisoners. If once in a while a PC gets raided, hey no biggy right? Sucks, but thats why we play Arm. Slavery imho in just death with additional options ....

But the thing is, right now, raiders just try to raid PCs. And thats why it doesn't work, because there isn't any other option. People take death very personally and raiders quickly become the talk of the town, when really a few minor desert raids shouldn't cause that much of a stir in the city community.  

But we increased targettable NPCs, limiting but not excluding attacks on PCI think we'd have something that would be very successful.

[Halaster]

I think that if this were implemented it would add that old feeling of 'fear' back into wilderness roleplay... which is where you will see all of this taking place, in the wastelands and wilds, not within the walls.

And this is one of the primary reasons for the idea in the first place.  The desert, if you even half-way know what you're doing, is not dangerous.

[Halaster]

IF our PC is captured, and IF we are enslaved, and IF we WANT to roleplay that slavery out and -not- store our character/escape/pay for freedom - then there needs to be an actual program in place to accommodate this.

When we first started discussing this as Imms, I was probably one of the biggest opposers to the idea, and this was one of the main reasons (though not the only).  We are currently discussing this topic, so we'll be sure it's addressed before we do anything with this whole idea.

The idea isn't fully fleshed out, and that's why we brought it here to get feedback from the playerbase.  While I'm not opposed to the idea anymore (Naiona and others convinced me it can work), I still want to make sure things like this are addressed.

So thanks for the feedback, everyone, so far.  Keep it coming.

[Naiona]

When I say that PC Slavers will mainly be going after NPCs in the desert I am referring -mostly- to animals.  The arena has a huge need for all sorts of nasty things for the arena and I see no reason why these PC slavers could not make the bulk of their living expenses by bringing in beasts.

My thought is there will be a cage (already coded - just need the script to attach to it) that they will toss their prey into and they'll receive credit based on what they brought in that day.   Bringing in a small handful of spiders or scrab might be the day's haul. Or they might be ambitious and out to seek some gith and mantis.  

If this system works out well, we might even be able to use a modified version of the same script to give credit for skins and shells to Kadian and Salarri hunters.

I should also mention that if this goes into a test period, it will be limited to Borsail, though in the future it could expand to Winrothol.  However - that doesn't mean that angry nobles and templars couldn't send raiding parties (and hire mercenaries) to extract their revenge on Borsail and Allanaki targets, and I can see making a few desert posts or stations available in game for this type of purpose, as well.  Again, remember this is me talking unofficially and does not reflect any plans set in motion by staff thus far.

[Bestatte]

See, I would LOVE to have Winrothol send a slaver party out to capture a Borsail noble, spy, or aide, and enslave them and "break" them of their evil southern ways (or attempt to) and brainwash them or force them to spill all the plans Allanak has for their evil plots and stuff.

But in any case, thanks Halaster for bringing your concern up with the rest of the staff, and thanks staff for taking this "what will I do AS a slave, IF I actually want to RP it out" issue into consideration.

[HardCarbon]

IF our PC is captured, and IF we are enslaved, and IF we WANT to roleplay that slavery out and -not- store our character/escape/pay for freedom - then there needs to be an actual program in place to accommodate this.

When we first started discussing this as Imms, I was probably one of the biggest opposers to the idea, and this was one of the main reasons (though not the only).  We are currently discussing this topic, so we'll be sure it's addressed before we do anything with this whole idea.

The idea isn't fully fleshed out, and that's why we brought it here to get feedback from the playerbase.  While I'm not opposed to the idea anymore (Naiona and others convinced me it can work), I still want to make sure things like this are addressed.

So thanks for the feedback, everyone, so far.  Keep it coming.

 Just remember.. and allow for..  'brutal world' works both ways.

[jmordetsky]

When I say that PC Slavers will mainly be going after NPCs in the desert I am referring -mostly- to animals.  The arena has a huge need for all sorts of nasty things for the arena and I see no reason why these PC slavers could not make the bulk of their living expenses by bringing in beasts.

My thought is there will be a cage (already coded - just need the script to attach to it) that they will toss their prey into and they'll receive credit based on what they brought in that day.   Bringing in a small handful of spiders or scrab might be the day's haul. Or they might be ambitious and out to seek some gith and mantis.  

I think this would be very cool. Buy why limit it to animals? Seems a little unrealistic. I mean, sentient(sp?) creatures (especially children) would have a much higher value and would probably come with less danger factor. Why not implement some biped NPCs for slaving as well?

Also would weapons like nets, mancatchers and rolling cages be purchasable to anyone? Or just slavers? I'd personally like to see slaving being a real merc job, IE staffed mostly by entrepreneurial  indies. I think House sponsored raids would be on a much larger scale.

I would love to see the northern slave auctions in Allanak available for slavers to sell off various NPCs. I'd also love to see an "escape" factor added to things like nets and cages so that every so often three gith could break out of the rolling cage and start causing havok at the auctions. Would add an nice element of danger.

[Naiona]

It would not be limited to animals. Those would just be the easiest and most often attempted targets.

[jmordetsky]

It would not be limited to animals. Those would just be the easiest and most often attempted targets.

I'm diggin it. Are there plans to create a more alive desert as targets for slaving pcs? NPC travelers and such?

[Revelations]

It would not be limited to animals. Those would just be the easiest and most often attempted targets.

I'm diggin it. Are there plans to create a more alive desert as targets for slaving pcs? NPC travelers and such?

About the live desert, I think there was a project currently that invovled implementing the simdesert. Is that still going on? Can we as players send in ideas about that?

[Linedel]

My thought is there will be a cage (already coded - just need the script to attach to it) that they will toss their prey into and they'll receive credit based on what they brought in that day. Bringing in a small handful of spiders or scrab might be the day's haul. Or they might be ambitious and out to seek some gith and mantis.

If this system works out well, we might even be able to use a modified version of the same script to give credit for skins and shells to Kadian and Salarri hunters.

This isn't a positive thing for an intensive [bold]roleplaying[/bold] environment.  Paragraph kept short to maintain civility, I feel that strongly!  (Referring to the automated collection/quest thing, not so much the slavery thing.)