Approaching and the whole load of things with it.

[Revelations]

Throwing out another spontanteous idea, how do people feel about having a virtual distance that you must cross to do anything harmful to another person? I'll reiterate better in a moment. What I'm proposing is an approach command where you need to approach someone before you can do kill or steal or anything of the harmful nature. Stealthy types with sneak, after a successful sneak, would be able to just sneak up beside people, while warriors that are facing off would need to approach their opponent before being able to type kill or bash.

The benefits? It's more realistic to be able to see people approaching you in the desert or in the streets (except crowded places), and there should be time for you to react before the threat gets too close.
Also, it frees up more opportunities for archery and throwing to be used. Shooting at a target in the same room would be possible, since the target would first have to approach you before engaging in melee combat, allowing archers to be in the same room as a large battle with much more acuracy (but more danger).
And at the moment, I don't think throw depicts the advantages that could be had from such attacks.  If you see someone approaching you, throwing a dagger at the approaching opponent would add more advantage to those that wield that skill (which it should give in most circumstances). And, in circumstances where a long throw isn't possible, it is still possible to escape a full encounter when throwing a dagger at someone in the same room such as a tavern (where a long throw has a very large percent of hitting someone else realistically).

This would also seperate the warriors from the assassins, giving assassins more of an advantage in terms of surprise (which is realistic) than a warrior who has much more prowess in face-to-face encounters. It wouldn't really make them any stronger with this, since they already have delay with backstab. Warriors, who would have more trouble getting close to their target without getting detected, wouldn't be as good at surprise attacks as assassins. Those with the sneak skill would have a chance to approach people without being detected with a successful sneak attempt.

Also, this allows for alot of possible strategies in large encounters. If everyone following one person approaches another person with her own group behind her, then there would be a mini encounter between all the people there if they were all guarding the person they were following. With a couple of groups like this, there would be several encounters going off at the same time, and groups could protect other groups such as archers. Of course, a way to set apart group leaders from group members would be needed for things to go more smoothly. Also, you would need to be able to see general as well as specific details of groups (for example, a general detail would just be the sdesc of the leader with the tag 'with a group behind him/her' and the specific if you look at the leader would be a list of people in the group). And, an encounter between two different groups would need a way for the members of the groups only to be able to fight the other group without approaching.

So, how does this sound? Of course, there's the problem with the code which I know has been mentioned before, along with a similar topic as this. I felt that introducing the group attack topic with the approach idea in mind would make it more possible.

[Tamarin]

I've always been in support of something like this.  It makes no sense for someone to be able to walk into a wilderness room and instantly be able to pummel you when in reality they are probably several hundred yars away.

[moab]

Yes, yes, yes!

Edit to add:

Yes!

Seriously, though what about when you want to whisper to someone?  Or touch their fanny?

I could, possibly (as a normal warrior dude) want to fake getting close for one reason so I can get a jump on them.  So I would probably fake wanting to whisper to them or something and want to use the approach command without raising an eyebrow.

[Delirium]

So will you have to 'approach' somebody to kiss them or hug them?

Will an assassin have to 'approach' somebody in the throes of mudsex?

It's a neat idea, but I have seen this in another game and it does have drawbacks, as far as roleplay-code seamlessness is concerned.  People get so wary of another person 'approaching' them that they freak out if you approach them codewise, even if you should be very close to them from a roleplay standpoint.

[Dan]

How about a word change for it?

Instead of approaching, you would aggress towards them.

The definition of which being: To initiate an attack, war, quarrel, or fight.

So, someone approaching you would be in a non-threatening manner and shouldn't be code supported. The natural reaction to back up from someone or flinch away from an attacker could be represented in the aggress code for small spaces, and in larger areas it would represent the distance crossed.

It may look something like this-

The large, brown carru begins to aggress towards you!
(giving you a brief moment to emote, dismount, shout, flee, draw a weapon etc...)

It does have its drawbacks and bonuses, as with everything. This may also be what magickers are looking for in the way of that slight advantage that was discussed in such length a few months ago. That moment before the actual attack begins you could think of the perfect spell to cast, or run, etc... because I know that in most cases the sheer speed in which my magickers would get cut down is often the reason for their demise when they could have just as easily muttered a few words to kill or stop the other.


I think aggress would be a more appropriate term though.

[Marauder Moe]

I think additional locality within rooms (beyond tables and chairs and such) would be problematic.

Why not assume that if someone is in the same (desert) room as you, they're pretty close.  If you want to keep your distance, stay a room away.  It might be nice, though, if emotes attached to the shout command would carry over to the next room, though.

[Revelations]

Hmm, I guess I didn't factor in just casual encounters besides aggressively approaching someone...

Well, the only answer I have for that is just having the command kill and combat skills with a delay like backstab does, but with an echo to the room. That throws out the idea of having a seperate command for approach, which makes things alot easier acually. The advantages for throwers and archers, as well as magickers as mentioned earlier is still there.    


The only problem would be with large encounters. If people don't mind having a delay before actually being able to attack someone when in the fray of battle...unless that grouping thing was implemented or something else was tweaked with different modifiers. Any ideas?

[joyofdiscord]

So, someone approaching you would be in a non-threatening manner and shouldn't be code supported. The natural reaction to back up from someone or flinch away from an attacker could be represented in the aggress code for small spaces, and in larger areas it would represent the distance crossed.

Then you can't surprise backstab someone when you're ncie and close, pretending to schmooze them up and be friendly.  

Plus, RP-wise, if you're close to the person in question, you should realistically use the coded approach command because you are, after all, close, but people will freak out over it because it will have (mostly) aggressive uses.  IMO, it would add yet another thing for characters to freak out over unrealistically which really shouldn't be such a huge deal ICly, along with look echos, failed peeks, and failed sneaks.

I say, trust the playerbase.  To their credit, every time I've had a character get subdued or otherwise messed with, it always came with an emote beforehand of closing the distance and reaching out.  The time or two that I've had a spam attacker, it was just a newbie anyway, and the flee command took care of things nicely.

[RunningMountain]

This is what emote is for.  If someone blatantly attacks you, either run or fight.

[Revelations]

Trust, as well as a standard, is most in question I feel. How do you judge how long you should wait before attacking someone in the desert?..especially when the person you want to attack is shooting deadly arrows at you. People could send out an emote to warn that they are approaching, but if they attack you the instant they enter the emote, then where's the warning that you should have gotten? Personally, I'd feel alot better having a standard, than relying upon the other PC to make the right decisions.

[Revelations]

Hmm, besides that, there's another problem. I can see someone walking past on the road only a few cordlengths away and drawing a weapon and attacking you.

*sigh* I guess the reason I brought this up was because of the delay that should be incorporated into alot of actions being up to players to determine. I remember seeing an old post that delt with someone opening a door, entering the room, and attacking without very much delay, when the character had an ldesc that had him on the far side of the room. Things like that could be the difference of your character living or dying.

[LBO]

I wish people would just RP it. I remember when I was playing a pretty well-known crim who sitting at a bar talking to some guy who was really wanted at the time. A couple of militia came in as they'd heard the guy was there. They shuffled around a little looking and pointing in our direction, obviously a little nervous and unsure about how to handle the situation. After a few moments more they get their act together and emote how they start to move towards the bar giving us time to slip off our stools as we see them beating a path towards us and emote how we make a dash for the nearest exit leading to a chase through the city.

Now, they could've insta-subdued and got their jobs done but instead decided to take the environment into account even though it meant that things didn't go so well for them ICly. I was very impressed with their actions and sense of fair play though and try to incorporate it myself now. I'd play it like that always out in the desert too. If I'm going to attack somebody I think its only fair to emote how you're moving towards them as walking into a large desert room and suddenly being three feet away from them just seems odd to me. We can take our surroundings into account much better than any piece of code and I think it really adds to the game when we do. Of course some players won't be interested and will jump straight to the code but we should try to lead by example in my opinion.

[Tamarin]

Ya, I thought about this a little more, and it's a good idea...in theory.  The crime could would have to be HUGELY revamped to facilitate this, because just as the previous poster said, insta-subdue/attack shouldn't be happening.  Soldiers already don't bother to emote and give you a chance to take off (imms...i can't BELIEVE you haven't done anything about this yet...what do you guys do all day?  is it really that hard to add a few seconds and an echo or two to the crime code??), so the differential between what players can do and what NPCs can do would grow even more, making it very difficult to pull off certain things.

[Cuusardo]

This is what emote is for.  If someone blatantly attacks you, either run or fight.

[nameless]

I think its a awesome idea and I can't even wrap my mind around why people are againist this it.  Personally I'm tired of losing characters who other wise would of be given a far chance to live if there was such a code in place.  When it comes to combat code in general, I don't think emoting works at all, it should be handled with code as much as possiable.  Especially since NPC's don't even emote.

And no leading by example is not going to work, I've lost to many characters in combat situations because I choose to role play it fair.

[sacac]

Poor raiders.
They will never catch anyone anymore.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Ya, I thought about this a little more, and it's a good idea...in theory.  The crime could would have to be HUGELY revamped to facilitate this, because just as the previous poster said, insta-subdue/attack shouldn't be happening.  Soldiers already don't bother to emote and give you a chance to take off (imms...i can't BELIEVE you haven't done anything about this yet...what do you guys do all day?  is it really that hard to add a few seconds and an echo or two to the crime code??), so the differential between what players can do and what NPCs can do would grow even more, making it very difficult to pull off certain things.

In light of this, I've been a victim...

Follow RP scence.

Think: Okay.. so I throw the knife, and jet off out the balcony and run to my sekrit uber hiding spot.

throw knife down person

A soldier runs up.
A soldier subdues you.
A soldier drags you off to jail.

You can't go that direction.

Think : What the hell?

In a a jail cell blah lbah..


Yeah.. it reaks.

[elvenchipmunk]

Just in response to some of the posts about the crim code. I've been a criminal afore, don't want to say when for ic purposes, but just let me say that I found -plenty- of ways to get away with the crimes. Even if those soldiers do auto-subdue you, keep in mind they still patrol around the city (atleast they should). If you're just patient, I see no -real- reason why the crim code should be revised. Hell, I even felt I was getting away with some crimes too easily.

[Dracul]

I don't like it...I won't list arguments. other people have.

But I don't like the idea.

[sacac]

Reasons I don't like it:

Noone said it stops the victim from flee n; flee n;flee n; flee e.

Raiders are non existent already.
Muggers are practically non existent right now.
Assassins have to approach you in a room and then type in Backstab. Hoping you don't type quit, or s, or n, or whatever else.

I would prefer if we just Rp'ed this.

[Rhyden]

Although I really like the idea, I think it would be better for the players to take this responsibility into their own hands. I'd like it more if the players could RP their distance logically between others but, there will always be those who will 'w;w;w;w;w;kill guy'. That's life.

However, I think this would be extremely useful in terms of limiting the time an NPC enters a 'square' and attacks a target in the same second.

[Anonymous]

Well, what the fuck? I hate the fact some are willing to just settle dealing with the already shitty crime code, among other things.

Why bother in making the game anyways?  Apperently no one is ever going to role play it fair.  I wonder why we even have this section of the forums, threads no matter the idea, good or bad, always has a whole drove of people fucking negative about everything.  Always talking about how hard its going to be to code or people will abuse it or whatever.  It pisses me off.

[Rhyden]

Well, what the fuck? I hate the fact some are willing to just settle dealing with the already shitty crime code, among other things.

Why bother in making the game anyways?  Apperently no one is ever going to role play it fair.  I wonder why we even have this section of the forums, threads no matter the idea, good or bad, always has a whole drove of people fucking negative about everything.  Always talking about how hard its going to be to code or people will abuse it or whatever.  It pisses me off.

Hey, chill.

Lead by example. If there is a major problem, log the situation and I'm sure the imms would be glad to review it.

Since this is an RPI mud, I think making code that will take away possible role-play is undesirable (IMO). Making code that will increase role-play is completely desirable. That's how I see it.

[Dracul]

I see a lot of annoying things following this.
Someone mentioned aggross...why should I have to approach you aggressively if I'm your friend about to change my mind and kill you?

approach bar
approach table
approach exit

wtf...no. It's an idea that has merits, but I for one am against it.
As to the guy who flipped about negative comments, look at the thread above (or below?) this...everyone jumped on board positvely.

its peoples opinions.

[Revelations]

Well, just having a delay between combat commands then? It doesn't necessarily need to have an approach echo I assume. It'll solve the issue of instantly attacking people once your in a room. It gives time for people to throw off one or two emotes before they actually engage.

[joyofdiscord]

I think pre-delays on some combat commands, kill, kick, bash, disarm, etc, could be neat.    But then you might have people who can spam run as soon as they see the echo for someone moving to kill them.  Still, I'd like to see a modest pre-delay on "kill" and maybe lessen up the post-delay a bit because it's really quite long in my opinion.

Also could add some variety to combat.  A less experienced fighter might try a disarm, but when you see them advance with the disarm, you could try to bash them.  Being more skilled, the delay would be shorter and you could interrupt their disarm.  On the other hand, this would add more of a twitch-factor to combat, which I wouldn't like to see increased even more.

[Larrath]

Magickers are an important consideration in this.  A change like this can end up making them very overpowered.

The newbie starts approaching the non-magicker (really!).
The non-magicker (really!) starts a spell.
The newbie hits the non-magicker (really!)'s body a couple of times, inflicting moderate damage.
The non-magicker (really!) completes spell.
The newbie is fucked.

This could even happen before the newbie could get the first hit in.  Not that this isn't realistic, but I'm not sure how well that would sit with the balance.

[Delirium]

Magickers are an important consideration in this.  A change like this can end up making them very overpowered.

The newbie starts approaching the non-magicker (really!).
The non-magicker (really!) starts a spell.
The newbie hits the non-magicker (really!)'s body a couple of times, inflicting moderate damage.
The non-magicker (really!) completes spell.
The newbie is fucked.

This could even happen before the newbie could get the first hit in.  Not that this isn't realistic, but I'm not sure how well that would sit with the balance.

Uh, I would put that as a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

But there's plenty of other reasons I don't want an approach-style command to go in, which have already been stated.

[sacac]

First off. Most of the time it is already like that.
Everytime I see a magicker in the wastes they can finish their spell before I can get in 2 rounds of hits. Usually, that means I can't attack. Or I am damn near dead.

So you want them to have even more power? Well fine, I like that idea, but I don't like approach.

[Delirium]

So don't resort to melee to kill a mage.

If somebody could kill you with a wiggle of their fingers, would you walk right up to them and start hacking away?  I have a suspicion that you would try to kill them from as far away as possible, or by other means than direct combat.

[sacac]

Or run up on them.
Or sneak up on them.
Or shoot them from a distance.
Bolo them.

Would magickers have to approach to use magicks?
Probably not.

So.. even if this was added I would an alias.

[Revelations]

Delay without the echo I ment.  :roll:

[Larrath]

What's the point in a delay without an echo?

I think putting something like that encourages insta-attacking even more, and it will create OOC paranoia (as opposed to IC paranoia, which is good).

[Revelations]

How so? It would be the same thing as backstab, but prevents people from entering a room and slashing away without much pause. And if a magicker knows your aggressive, he should be able to get a spell cast before you get near him, realistically speaking, correct? (unless somehow the guy can run faster than the magicker can notice him and start doing the motions, words, and whatever else the magicker does) It allows more strategy involved in encounters, since fleeing a battle is much easier. The side effect would be that people would live longer in certain circumstances, but is that such a bad thing for the game?

Currently, I think most NPCs are good as they are on the instant attacking thing, it's the whole mess with soldiers that seems to be the main problem.

[Larrath]

How so? It would be the same thing as backstab, but prevents people from entering a room and slashing away without much pause. And if a magicker knows your aggressive, he should be able to get a spell cast before you get near him, realistically speaking, correct? (unless somehow the guy can run faster than the magicker can notice him and start doing the motions, words, and whatever else the magicker does) It allows more strategy involved in encounters, since fleeing a battle is much easier. The side effect would be that people would live longer in certain circumstances, but is that such a bad thing for the game?

Currently, I think most NPCs are good as they are on the instant attacking thing, it's the whole mess with soldiers that seems to be the main problem.

Backstab is a specialized stealth skill.  Also, if I was in the desert and some hooded figure ran in and immediately backstabbed me, I will email the staff and ask them about it.

If a magicker knows I'm aggressive, they'll probably start getting ready.  But if there is no echo, how will they know if I'm waiting for the attack to go in or just typing an emote?  Most magickers that didn't want to die would be forced to immediately start casting.
Would a magicker, ICly, be able to zap me five times before I managed to run up to them in the open desert?  Probably.  Will this sort of change drastically affect the game balance?  Yep!
A halfling, agile as it may be, probably can't keep up with a running mount.  But they can as far as the game goes, and if they couldn't, halflings would become far less dangerous.

All in all, this is similar to a mildly powerful Rukkian creating a grains of sand (or even a tiny pebble) on something by pointing at it.  Most 15-day Rukkians are probably powerful enough to be able to make a tiny cantrip like that, but make that pebble appear in your airpipe and suddenly your PC is going to suffocate to death.

There is game realism, but there is also game balance, and both things are important.

[sacac]

The approach command by itself is completely useless, in my opinion. I don't want to see this:

The very tall figure in a woven brown cloak approaches the watery-eyed and blue clothed magicker.

The watery-eyed and blue clothed magicker walks east.

The very tall figure in a woven brown cloak thinks, "WTF?"

The very tall figure in a woven brown cloak runs east.

The very tall figure in a woven brown cloak approaches the watery-eyed and blue clothed magicker.

The watery-eyed and blue clothed magicker walks east.

The very tall figure in a woven brown cloak runs east.

The very tall figure in a woven brown cloak approaches the watery-eyed and blue clothed magicker.

The watery-eyed and blue clothed magicker walks east.

The very tall figure in a woven brown cloak runs east.

The very tall figure in a woven brown cloak approaches the watery-eyed and blue clothed magicker.

The watery-eyed and blue clothed magicker walks east.

The very tall figure in a woven brown cloak runs east.


Obviously, the elf is never going to catch the magicker. who is on foot.

Unless of course..

The magicker has to flee each time someone approaches him.


That might could work.
Agility should be the main factor in establishing an approach lag and their chance of forcing the approached to fail flee.
The approachers pace and the approachee's pace should do negatives or positives to each other for the speed. So as a walking elf can't catch a running human. And so on for each race.
You don't have to approach to assist someone. You don't have to approach when you use backstab, steal, plant, sap, tell, and so on.

How is that adjustment? A raider on an erdlu or a war beetle will catch that merchant on a kank every single time.

Editted to add:
When in a "group," where everyone in that group is following each other, you don't have to use "approach" on members of the group. so if you "shadow" someone, you don't have to approach them to kill them.

Of course, that can be abused by "following" someone. Though, those people can be weeded out and shot with Tektolness' shotgun of torture +50 str