Sense of Justice in Zalanthas?

[Revelations]

Another thing I'm pulling out of my thoughts; in a world of harshness and survival of the fittest, where the strongest survive, does a sense of protection of the weak exist? Would such ideals as chivalry have a place to grow in someone's heart who is constantly threatened by hunger, thirst, and death? Besides the Sorcerer King's justice, what other kinds of 'justice's are out there that have been conceived by the populace? (keeping away from any IC sensitive stuff) Could a devotion that does not focus on oneself be present, and by whom might this be seen in, if possible?

In Tuluk, there are bards, would anything like a romantic poem be heard? And what kind of elements might be seen in it that is different from our own such poems and stories?

Going in another direction, does such a thing as innocence exist? Seeing the brutalities of this world, any child would likely have seen things that adults in our world might never have seen, and the culture that the child lives in would likely have their own corupt and heartless people. Also considering that commoner parents would have experienced a brutal life even before a child could be born, could anything that is "innocent" be seen after he or she comes of age?

And if similar emotions or ideals are possible, how and from who might you see these things from?

[sacac]

Holy shit! Some guys dieing in the sands!
You think, I wonder if he has anything I can sell for some coin.
You go and get the mans shoes and return to sell them for 16 'sid.

[sacac]

In Tuluk, there are bards, would anything like a romantic poem be heard? And what kind of elements might be seen in it that is different from our own such poems and stories?

Going in another direction, does such a thing as innocence exist? Seeing the brutalities of this world, any child would likely have seen things that adults in our world might never have seen, and the culture that the child lives in would likely have their own corupt and heartless people. Also considering that commoner parents would have experienced a brutal life even before a child could be born, could anything that is "innocent" be seen after he or she comes of age?

And if similar emotions or ideals are possible, how and from who might you see these things from?

Bards write love songs. They should watch what they make because a few of them were to Familiar IRL and made me stop arm for a day or so.
I don't think there is such a thing as innocence in the world of Zalanthas.

[John]

does a sense of protection of the weak exist?

No. IMO this includes children. Children aren't protected. Something to think about

Besides the Sorcerer King's justice, what other kinds of 'justice's are out there that have been conceived by the populace?

Dealing with sorcerers and magickers. While a single person would be ICly insane to take them on, I can see large groups of people from the nearby town/village banding together to kill the creature, if it's nearby.

Could a devotion that does not focus on oneself be present, and by whom might this be seen in, if possible?

Soldiers and servants (they're devoted to their clan). There's also love, so I can see people feeling love and protection towards some (that sort of negates my comment on children. Family members might protect them, but strangers won't).

In Tuluk, there are bards, would anything like a romantic poem be heard? And what kind of elements might be seen in it that is different from our own such poems and stories?

Sure they'd be heard. As for different elements. Well you've got the whole interspecial thing, that's got to make for some intriguing romantic poems/songs/stories. You won't see women portrayed as helpless or men as instigating the relationship anymore then men will be portrayed as helpless with women instigating the relationship. I can see cautious tales about someone sleeping with someone and getting stolen/killed from being a favourite.

Going in another direction, does such a thing as innocence exist?

Sure. But they'd have to have an exceptional upbringing IMO. An isolated upbringing would do it.

An interesting topic. All of this was IMO of course.

[Cuusardo]

Bards sing all sorts of songs, about anything you can imagine.

[lazycritic]

Zalanthas is ostensibly less harsh than many medieval societies. "Mercy" is a concept that surely exists, but, as always, is up to the individual - "merciful" people exist.

Noblesse oblige is OBVIOUS in the way that the Tulukian patronage system works.

Innocence, i.e., inexperience, exists. Heh. Heh. Heh.

Soldiers and servants (they're devoted to their clan).

Yet servant children who have grown up in Houses are a rarity. Inconsistency? Why be devoted to a House when you're just an employee and not a member?

Well you've got the whole interspecial thing, that's got to make for some intriguing romantic poems/songs/stories.

Eh...like Romeo and Juliet, only with a human and an elf? Eh, no, unless it's a comedy. Heh.

[Larrath]

Well, even the elves in Zalanthas have feelings, and the humans, while beyond tough and cruel in comparison to us Earth humans... well, they're still people.

There is love in Zalanthas, and there's faith in other people, and there's innocence.  Children, though accustomed to hard labor and hardships from maybe as old as nine years old (any younger and they just can't do anything fast enough to be really useful), but they're still children on the inside.
And people probably take them less seriously - if a Zalanthan kid went to the Gaj and started talking about a whole bunch of silt horrors that are coming in from the north, not everyone would panic.  If an adult said the same thing, more people would believe it.
Some people might also go lighter on, say, a ten or even twelve year old child because they personally like children.  It wouldn't be looked at as strange, but probably won't be a social norm either.

Babies are still innocent in Zalanthas, and some people stay innocent for the rest of their very short lives (since those just don't live that long, heh heh) simply because it's their nature.


With all this said, there is practically on chivalry in Zalanthas, and no real sense of justice.  True devotion to anyone else, including one's child or life partner or whatever, is extremely rare.

[Delirium]

True devotion to anyone else, including one's child or life partner or whatever, is extremely rare.

Unless you're an elf.

[lazycritic]

there is no real sense of justice

Eh? I suppose it depends on your definition of justice. If you mean the "all men are created equal and have equal rights and punishments under the law regardless of intelligence, status, and wealth", then yes, there is not a good sense of "justice". If you mean fairness, then I'd say most people have a fairly good sense of what's fair:

• If you murder and get caught, you die; unless, of course, you have a large or two on hand.
  
• If you're a breed, you get shunned.
  
• If you do good work for your boss, you get paid/promoted.
  

Those are a few examples. A Zalanthian can recognize injustice just as well as any other person, they just can't do anything about it.

[Gaare]

Very good topic..

-Power and Survival

IMO in physical sense many people human, elf, half-elf.. any kind throw out or bury a disabled child.. which can be blind, or maybe without fully functional leg, arm, etc.. In the personality sense, I suppose many children in cities grown in crowd, they left their houses in the morning and return back at dusk. They suffer and see illnesses, harshness, brutallity, violence, hunger, thirst.. If they manage to reach adulthood, many of those individuals become strong in personality.. and weak would probably die or gets a life worse then death.


- Protection of the Weak

I doubt there are many social groups on Zalanthas which see protection of the weak as a virtue. The question is.. why would they protect?

IMHO The best example from real life would be from financial issues. After the idea of human rights, we (human beings) increased and begin to use our aggressive side on trying to steal each other's money with rules we call laws.

Why would strong Zalanthian indivitual would protect the weak one?

This is same as why would not a big firm would crush the weak one to earn %0.0001 more profit? If a big firm would do that, that would be accepted by today's societies.. and noone would care about the owner of weak firm expect if that owner is your close friend or someone you work with.

Suit this example to Zalantian, I suppose a family do not (really) care if their neighbour would be enslaved or thrown to the pits.

If  they see a powerful figure trying to protect the weak family.. Probably people think there is a self-interest of that figure in attempts to protect the weak.  Same as if you see another big firm protecting the weak one from the getting crushed.

- Emotions and Bards.

That's another story. Even in the most brutal times, if there is an elite group who enjoys art (even that art does not reflect the overall society), there were entertainers who work for them.  Also without knowing writing and reading societies use the songs and dances to pass traditions to next generations. (If there would not be songs and dances.. how would a Zalanthian have good time anyway.. You know there are not many clubs, theatres and home video systems in ARM)

On the other hand, I really doubt a large population (which are not mostly seen as PCs) of Allanak or Tuluk do really care about art or songs since they are spending their every hour to earn the food they will eat that very day. Anyway, there is a funny Turkish saying like.. "Hungry bear does not dance."

It has been a long post, probably my longest.. Thanks if you are still reading. Heh..

[moab]

To view Zalanthas as a whole unified under a single sense of justice would be a mistake.

In each culture justice is surely defined - sometimes alien to what we believe in RL, sometimes not.

An elf tribe is going to have one sense of justice while commoners living ind the shadow of the dragon are going to have another, desert bandits a third.

I imagine it would pretty hard for any society to exist without a sense of justice and concepts of good and evil.

The challange as roleplayers (at which I failed during a period of playing my last character, I admit) is to divorce ourselves from our RL sense of justice and think like a Tuluki, 'naki, or desert elf.

[Whira's Luck]

As far as protection of the weak/chivalry, I don't think it quite exists, at least not in the way it's generally described.

As has been stated before, weakness is a trait that will quickly be exploited, but everyone has weaknesses so how does one circumvent them? Generally, it's by allying themselves with those who have the strength to protect them.

Protection of the weak -is- there, it's just not done for altruistic reasons. The main reason someone would be protected is out of self-interest, hence, you don't see many commoners getting bent out of shape when a child is beaten before them or someone is exploited by someone more powerful. Self-interest is the single most powerful motivating factor when it comes to protection of others. Most of the times it is either through duty or care.

The questions one would ask themselves before sticking their neck out to 'protect' someone are: Am I being paid to protect this person or see to their well being? Am I going to get anything out of risking my body or reputation to protect them? Will I get in trouble with someone who can easily harm me if I help them? Do I care about/have familial ties to this person?

For the majority of people, being a 'crusader' figure is suicide, either financial, physical or even in reputation, so to 'protect' someone usually, the 'protector' needs some overwhelming reason to do so.

Protection of children - See above, only moreso. A family might protect their children, as their children are generally an investment of sorts: They can bring money in to support the family, as most adults don't live forever and should they get lucky and find employment that is very lucrative, they may be able to make a family quite comfortable. Also, the people of Zalanthas are just that: people. And people exist in social groups and form bonds. One of the closest bonds is the familial bond, and the easiest to form if the family is semi-normal i.e. the parents and siblings care for each other, and usually the first social bond that is made. I don't think it would be uncommon for parents or siblings to care for each other or to try and protect each other (it's in their best interests) however, it would be uncommon for them to do so if by protecting them, they invite even more trouble onto themselves.

Are there love songs and does love exist?

Yes! There's love, and there's love songs.  Again, most people, while embittered and leading hard lives, do form social bonds, and some of those will be the bonds of romantic love in its varied forms. This doesn't just apply to commoners but most people who are capable of care (yes, I'm sure there are psychopaths and sociopaths out there). Love may also be one of the factors of self-interest when it comes to protecting someone but again, within reason and it depends on the person. Naturally, teenagers and young adults tend to be less pragmatic about this than more mature adults. Romantic art: love songs, love poems, love stories, all offer a reprieve from the harshness and grittiness of every day life. For some, it may rekindle fond memories, and so I'd think such art would be very popular, if only for the escape it provides. As far as elements go, I think there aren't any elements in love stories that might be different from our own since our own stories pretty much cover the gamut of everything that might happen with two exceptions: there is just as equal of a chance of the woman being the knight in shining armor coming to rescue the hapless man and there's probably more polyamorous stories.

Innocence would be extremely subjective. Given the cultures and the day to day harshness of the world, it's possible in some forms, but unlikely. People might be innocent in one aspect, but probably not another. Generally, when innocence is spoken of, it's related to sex and/or intoxicating substances/crime. I would go so far as to say, when most families are large and live in the same room, children are exposed to sex early in their lives and neither nudity nor sex is a big deal. Crime happens in many places, and intoxicating substances are readily sold in many places to anyone who is tall enough to see over the edge of the bar. I would think that the only true innocent are those who are isolated while growing up, for one reason or another.

As far as a 'brutal' life, to us it seems brutal, but I'm sure to the people of Zalanthas it's just life. While there is a lot of crime, I'd wager most people are not heartless criminals. They wouldn't hesitate to pick up a pouch of sid lost on a street and pocket it, but they probably wouldn't go out of their way to slice it from someone's belt. They are opportunistic criminals: if the opportunity is there, and the possibiility of being caught is very low, then they would do it. Not out of maliciousness, but out of need. Most people are normal people, not ravenous, blood-thirsty lunatics who will not stop until everyone is killed and stolen from. Therefore, I think it's possible for them to raise a child with the normal innocences according to that specific culture, even if it's not the innocence that we consider innocent. To be blunt: No, I don't think it's possible for them to raise children who are innocent according to our ideals of innocence unless they kept said child isolated.

People feel all the emotions we feel: love, lust, happiness, elation, anger, sadness, depression, jealousy, fear, hate and the countless other shades, and they even likely express them in much the same ways. You can't point to one and say "Well this is a zalanthan emotion."

[EvilRoeSlade]

True devotion to anyone else, including one's child or life partner or whatever, is extremely rare.

Unless you're an elf.

Not true.  Elves are devoted to their tribes.  An elf wouldn't be particularly devoted to an individual within their tribe when compared to another.

[Delirium]

Semantics.

They are devoted to their tribe and the well-being of their tribe.  So it is very possible that an elf would care about the wellbeing of their child or life partner because it is directly tied to the wellbeing of the tribe.  (Unless their child is a murderous psycopath, in which case they might kill it to protect the tribe.)

But my post was merely stating that true devotion is less rare among an elf's tribe. Which I still stand by.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Unless their partner is the last member of the opposite sex in their tribe, or almost all of the newest generation has been slain and their child is one of the few left, no, they aren't directly related to the survival of the tribe.

If your partner dies you can find a new one to impregnate.  If your child dies you can have another.  An elves devotion to these things would be equivalent to a human's devotion, in my opinion.

It's not semantics.  I'm disagreeing with you.  I think that most elves would decide that making sure that THEY personally survive is in the best interests of their tribe.  After all, if they die then no one will do whatever it is they're doing for their tribe.  And if someone else in their tribe can't take care of themselves, well guess what?  They're weakening the tribe anyway and are better off dying.

[jhunter (not logged in)]

I think it would depend on the particular tribe, but I agree with what both of the last two are saying. It just depends on the tribe.

[Larrath]

Delerium has it right, I totally forgot other races there.

Elven loyalty is nothing like human loyalty.  If you take a human from the 'rinth and start torturing him for information, everyone will expect him to crack within five minutes, and if he does then it won't be anything unusual.
Take an elf from a 'rinth tribe though, and if that someone cracked then it would be rather unusual.

Most regular (or at least the brave fourth or so) elves would gladly die if it meant the greater good of the clan.
The vast majority of humans won't really die for anything or anyone.

[Tamarin]

This is a pretty deep topic, and everyone is going to have their own opinions about what is proper and what isn't.  With that in mind, you have to realise that not one person who plays armageddon has ever lived in conditions that come even close to being in the same vicinity of what zalanthas is like.

It's often useful to come up with some frame of reference for your own roleplay motives, something that meshes with the game world.  It's impossible to reference any one given terran situation and be able to draw up even half of arm's elements, so you typically need to form some amalgamation of different elements (ex: allanak = Bush-USA, mixed with middle-eastern guerilla warfare, mixed with Frank Herbert's Dune, mixed with a hydrogen bomb, mixed with giant turtles...).  And be sure to throw in a flavor that encapsulates sandy, desperate, bleakness.

If you start with something like that, I imagine you might eventually get a faint sense of what justice is like on Zalanthas.  But when in doubt, lean towards the brutal, not fru-fru anachronistic bardic drivel.

[Cenghiz]

I believe only few decide to protect the weak. A d-elf protect the weak of his tribe. He'd give water, arrows, spiked gauntlets and his sanctuary while the mate's sleeping for free, not thinking of personal profit in any way. I also had a character who killed at least one gith every week (RL day) because ICly gith were increasing in numbers and threatening his camp. Anything moving closer than 20 leagues was a threat for the tribe and the char would kill it without a second thought.
Also I believe organisations formng with brutality like raider camps or 'rinth clans should protect even the weakest. Because if a foe believes he can get away killing a member, he would do that, weakening your own clan.
Also there are few 'legendary' chars. I believe they're not the majority. The playerbase is understanding enough to keep these chars the tiny little minority and I'm fine with that. If he can remember, kudos to the 'rinthi paladin who decided to eat rat meat instead of the easy coins I offered, 2 years ago. It was a well-formed, realistic 'neutral good' character.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While Zalanthas is certianly a hardened society, or collection of societies, I think it is still important to remember that all the elves, halflings, muls, humans, dwarves, etc, are all still living and breathing beings who have emotions. Because emotions run the spectrum, you can expect to find nearly any variation on any concept and philosophical belief.

Also, nearly every one of these questions are relative. Because the world is so much harsher, a Zalanthian might very well think he is noble and just, while we RL humans would look upon his behaviour as deplorable at best. He might very well look upon a child who has just finished servicing Lord Jackson and think to himself how innocent the child is.

This is primarily the reason that the new player is warned: This game is generally adult-oriented. There is no such thing as a child-friendly setting in Zalanthas, because even children here are adults if we want to compare them to Us.

A great way, I think, to sum up the way a child likely grows up in Zalanthas is to look to our RL children in Israel and Africa and the Middle East as a whole, where they have seen AIDs destroy them, and bombs eat them alive, and prostitution at 8 and 9 years old.

In fact, looking at the worst conditions in our world can give you an idea of the best conditions for a child in Zalanthas.

[Larrath]

I disagree with Venomz's last two paragraphs.

First of all, Israel isn't that bad.  Please.  Not every kid and probably not one in five hundred kids has ever witnessed a terrorist attack.  I don't think Africa is a perfectly good comparison either - Allanak has some sickness, but the Templarate does care about the people as a whole.  Maybe they don't care about fifty people or a thousand people, but if the templars had to choose between, say, two thousand non-'rinthis and one moderate noble, the noble might be out of luck.
It's stated somewhere in the documents that the reason that the Senate (and by that, the Noble Houses) exist is that the commoners are much more capable of following a group of people who, although rich and wealthy, are still human like them as opposed to the unimaginably powerful Tektolnes and his magick-wielding minions, and it's pretty much the same story in Tuluk, too.

If a massive epidemic cleaned out one quarter of the Commoner's Quarter, or possibly even the 'rinth, I don't think silent magickal intervention on behalf of the Templarate would be out of the question.  Maybe they're all evil bastards, but I strongly doubt Tektolnes decided to empower a bunch of people simply because he wanted to make life a little harder for the commoners.

Also, I should think a child living in Borsail, or a merchant House, or even a reasonably wealthy family (indie merchants, a house guard) has better living than what most children in an AIDS-ravaged village have.
I'm not sure Zalanthas can really be compared at all to the real world like this.  Africa and Zalanthas are both difficult settings, and they're both hot and most people there are poor... But that's where most similarities end.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The Israel I see in the news has exactly the sort of atmosphere that I described. Now, perhaps I am misguided and disillusioned by the America propaganda machine, but still...

When I refer to Zalanthians, I am refering to commoners at nearly any stage. Additionally, the average black African deals with absolutely horrible living conditions, and I really do think that the typical Zalanthian experiences just about the same thing.

Still, thank you for clearing that up.

[lazycritic]

You guys are way exaggerating the "harshness" of Zalanthas. It just ain't that harsh. The conditions they live under are not mind-blowing(well, besides the heat).

Africa reflects the conditions nicely, I'd say - except that it is WAY WAY WORSE THAN THE ZALANTHAS we play in.

http://www.darfurgenocide.org/

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Is it?

Or, is it just the fact that these things get left out in the fight to maintain a non-squeamish atmosphere?

[Selie]

As a relatively new player, from the exposure I've had (granted, I haven't set foot outside of Allanak), things don't seem as bad as everyone claims. Water is scarce, you don't go around being randomly generous to everyone you meet, and hatred and discrimination are common - but general human decency seems to exist. Maybe it's just that people are "too nice" in how they roleplay, but there's a world of difference between thinking of yourself first and thinking of yourself ONLY. Even in harsh settings in the real world, people make connections with each other, emotion exists, compassion can exist in its own way. Just because the setting is harsh doesn't mean that everybody in it is a selfish, heartless automaton. Honestly, if every person on Zalanthas acted as if they didn't care about anybody else, I wouldn't play, becaues I would consider that extremely unrealistic. Even in a dark setting, people are still people.

That's just my opinion. Maybe I'm completely wrong here.

[Nao]

israel isn't bad, really..
some smaller areas in there might be harsh, but not as bad as you might think from the media, most of the stuff on the media at the moment isn't israel...
but concluding from the gaza-area to the whole country Israel would be like seeing the 'rinth and saying all Zalanthas is like that...

probably 95% of Israel are well-developed and not really poor, much like.. brazil, maybe, though this might not be the best example...
had to write a 12-page paper about kibbuzim two years ago and caught up a lot of stuff about israel in the process...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, good, then.

[Vox]

Yah, I think VENOMZ is off with the Israel analogy but dead-on with the African one.

Israel, perfectly located at the fulcrum of Europe, Asia and Africa, is a world-class destination for sophisticated travelers. Israel offers cultural attractions on a par with Europe, the U.S. and Canada, luxury hotels, glamorous spas and a hot restaurant scene - all within an atmosphere that combines the very ancient with the ultra high-tech, and the exotic with the contemporary. The tumultuous atmosphere a few specific hot spots, although focused upon by liberal media sources with ferocity, should not deter the open-minded from investigating the land of milk and honey.

Did you know that...

1.) Israel has more museums per capita than any country on earth Including the legendary Israel Museum in Jerusalem.

2.) In addition to world-class Israeli hotels and hotel-chains, almost every international hotel chain is represented in Israel.

3.) Two Israel hotels/restaurants are members of the prestigious Relais and Chateaux organization.

4.) France's legendary Gault-Millau food critics consider Israel one of the world's major food destinations, one of the only countries outside France on which it publishes a restaurant guide.

5.) Israel has a network of international-standard spa resorts in the Galilee, at the Dead Sea and at Eilat.

6.) Israel - a country no bigger than New Jersey or Prince Edward Island - has an international standard Opera Company (The New Israeli Opera) , four full-time symphony orchestras (including the Israel Philharmonic, founded in 1936), as well as dozens of theater, dance, chamber music and contemporary music companies

7.) The International Opera Festival in the Roman Theater at Caesarea is now an annual event held every June and July, and includes world-class performances by the New Israeli Opera. Visiting superstars at recent festivals have included Jessye Norman and Kiri Ti Kanawa.

8.) Israel's club scene - particularly in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem - is part of the Ibiza-Amsterdam-London scene, drawing DJ's and club fans from North America and Europe to all-night parties.

9.) Tel Aviv's November 2000 Love Parade brought a quarter-of-a-million people to the city's Mediterranean shore in an hours-long celebration of techno music, trance and amity. As many as 400,000 revelers participated in the 2001 Love Parade.

10.) 2000 was the best year ever for tourism to Israel, bringing almost 3 million tourists to the country from almost every country on earth.

The African analogy is good due to the horribly oppressive climate in certain areas, the extreme poor and notorious South African racism. This makes for a good microcosm of Zalanthas in that you have Slumlords running areas through brute force... Much like Allanak.. Racism.. A harsh desert wilderness in places... wandering nomadic tribes... etc, etc.

Obviously nothing exactly mirrors our Imaginary universe of Armageddon. But if anything comes close, it's Africa... Especially old Northern Africa with the broad deserts and wandering Arab tribes. Using bone-carved weapons(along with steel of course) and wearing sandcloth.

Anyway, that's my two 'sid. :shock:

[bracken]

I reckon people are still people.  There is still that bonding thing and group dynamics and "us" against "them".  So i think it is fine to feel protective about some people.  Unless the society has completely broken down and there is complete chaos and death and starvation out there. Which hasn't happened...yet.