Big skill change idea

[Hexxaex]

You may all hate my stupid idea, because of how big it is.

What I propose, is that we eliminate the guilds and subguilds.  *Dodges rotten fruit being thrown* We would replace them with a choice of skills, out of the entire stinkin' list of them.  You would be able to pick some number of skills out of the list, so someone could potentially have basic combat skills, know the armormaking skill, as well as the swordmaking skill, along with value, say.

Guilds and subguilds are, after all, totally OOC concepts, and a choice of skills would make it more suitable, especially when someone asks you what you can do.

I just think it would make the game so much more versatile and flexible, so you don't have to be limited to just the armormaking, but you could have one from that, and one skill from another subguild.  Now, I'm too lazy to think about problems, but what do you all think?

Please, don't throw rotten fruit.  Gimme some fresh stuff.

[Ghost]

Was suggested a few times in past.

LoD had a good refusing answer to that, stating, everybody would pick up backstab, pick, poisoning, slashing weapons, piercing weapons, hide, sneak, disarm, bash...(insert some cool skill name here)

And in the end, there would be a bunch of skills unused, unwanted, or picked up too seldom.

I think it is fine the way it is.

[Maybe42or54]

I like the idea, but I think it would get more and more abused.
I think the system we have now is the one I would choose for least abusable.
Maybe that is because of ignorance for other ideas though.

[Larrath]

Assuming the balance was kept intact, I'm completely in favor of going classless for mundane classes (still keeping karma classes as actual classes).

The problem is that we could have rangerlike people running around with haggle, forage, scan, bash, jewelrymaking and stonecarving.  They don't even have to be full rangers or have serious combat ability.  Someone like that could make as much money as any merchant but still be able to scare away a weaker magicker.

[Hexxaex]

What could be done, is that the skills are classified into their groups (perception, manipulation, combat, stealth, etc...) and you can only have a certain number from any given group.  Also, maybe the guilds could be kept because of things like sandstorm navigation that rangers get, not a skill, but still a feature.  Experience caps might also be a problem, but maybe you could still have all the guilds, but they only define the cap.  For example, if you pick warrior, your combat skills, should you choose them, will have a higher cap than if you picked merchant and tried to throw in some combat skills.  Thus, merchant classes will have a higher haggle skill cap than the warrior guild.

[Maybe42or54]

But then branching wouldn't have much of an effect that I could think of besides getting skill points, and I decline that.

[Delirium]

No thanks. For reasons stated many times in other threads.

Besides, if 'sandstorm navigation' was something you could pick at chargen, 99.9999999% of all characters would have it.

[Dracul]

*thumbs down*

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

What you're suggesting is more complex than you'd think at first glance.
As others have said, you'd have to completely rework skill branching, character creation, and non-skill "talents" (like rangers being able to log out in many more areas and navigating sandstorms). What about rare skills, like read/write? Tatlum? Heshrak? What would happen to the already-ailing concept of a Zalanthan physician?
Certain skills are classified as "combat" skills, yet they're used primarily by stealth characters. This could create balance issues if a warrior decided to pick up one of these.
Showing all the skills would also take out a good chunk of the game's mystery, the elimination of subguilds would result in people picking skill combinations they think would be the most powerful, and not combinations that make sense for their character.
Sorry if my arguement was a little disjointed (I'm distracted at the moment), but I think you get my point... thumbs down. If you want some crazy uber skill combination, special app it.

[Cuusardo]

No sir, I don't like it.  You should not be able to pick and choose what you're good at in that way.

[Marauder Moe]

A lot of times when a game changes from a class-based system to a skill-based system (or vice versa) it turns out the class-based system ends up with MORE character variety than the skill-based system.

[Yokunama]

No thanks. For reasons stated many times in other threads.

Besides, if 'sandstorm navigation' was something you could pick at chargen, 99.9999999% of all characters would have it.

Agreed,
People would only use this system to better their characters for survival and grow greatly in economic wealth.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Among the other problems that other people have all listed, not all skill caps are created equally.  Acquiring a skill from a subclass will result in a lower skill cap than acquiring it from your main class.  Also, two classes can have the same skill, and completely different rates of learning attached to the skill.  Two classes with the same skill can branch completely different things from it - or one might branch, the other not.

Here's another thing.  Think about your list of "ideal" skills in combination - and don't go overboard with it, just pick seven or eight that you think would work well together.  Chances are, there's a class/subclass combination that already has you covered.  Of course, I'm only referring to the basic classes, here, there's no chance the magicker or mindbender classes should be anything other than exactly what they are.

[jhunter]

I like it the way it is. Honestly, I've never liked any I've tried where you get to pick out skills. People have a tendency to pick out several things because they think it makes for a powerful combination but Rp-wise it makes no sense how one could be adept at several unrelated things. To be good at certain things it takes alot of focus and time to get that way, taking time away from other things that are also time consuming to learn.


On a scale from one through ten, ten being the best idea...I give it a two.

[moab]

Classless is the only realistic way to go.

Every argument here is pretty emotional and void.
Game balance issues are handled through testing.

If everyone has four or five of the same skills "sand navigation or what have you" so what?  We live on a freakin' desert world.  It's going to be a common skill.

Everyone will grab sneak, steal, backstab, <whatever>.  So - people like certain skills?  Is that a problem?  Other skills are unused?  So what?  My RP won't be like your RP even if we both had backstab.

And I bet you that this is not going to be the case, anyway.  If you have five or ten slots or whatever to purchase skills or groups of skills, you may choose something like parry over backstab if you plan on playing a warrior - or guard over sand navigation if you're playing a house guard.

Silly arguments, all.  I see not even on real limitation to classless systems.  Classes are about as silly as alignments.  Strike that.  Are as silly.

I don't know anyone in RL who doesn't have an odd collection of skills.  I know computer guys that can pick locks, managers than can work as EMTs and another computer guy that is pretty good at jousting.  And I bet they have several others skills beyond that.

If I am playing a warrior, I should be able to know how to sneak, how to make jewlery, how to backstab if those are things that fit in with the character.  I should also be able to learn "sand navigation" in game if I spend a bunch of time with someone who knows how to do it well.

The only reasonable argument against classess systems is that it will break a whole lot of code.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have to agree with moab here, actually. I have always favored a classless system.

The common argument against a classless system is the cheating aspect, the cookie-cutter soldier aspect. I assure you that you assumptions are incorrect. For one thing, while we think about skills, we do not often actually base ourselves on our skills. We base our skills on ourselves.

Because everyone has different ideas about what makes the game fun for them, there will never be a specific set of skills to choose.

[Linedel]

While I may agree that classless may be more "realistic", classes are required because the game isn't as role-playing oriented as it wants to be, and it's entirely the fault of the playerbase.

Want to fix that?  Roleplay better.

(Staff can't really do anything.  They could crack down, but then the twinks quit, and then there are no grunts hunterers/gatherers to fuel the upper class.  The style of game (text based roleplay) is too niche to have enough players cycle through to filter the chaff leaving a solid base.)

Your other, more immediate option if you want a "unique" character is special app.  If you can't write a detailed special app with a nice long character history and goals, why should you be trusted with an unusual skill combination?

I don't really mean to be so negative, I'm just jaded by internet gaming in general.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Good point.

[lazycritic]

While I may agree that classless may be more "realistic", classes are required because the game isn't as role-playing oriented as it wants to be, and it's entirely the fault of the playerbase.

Huh?

We roleplay around the code. The code is unfixable for players. Armageddon has never tried a classless system on its players.

Burglars pick. Pickpockets peek. Assassins backstab. Magickers don't spar - they are conspicuously lacking in normal skills.

These classes are enforced by the code. It's not my fault. Heh.

[nameless]

I might as well bring this idea up.   What if characters could simply learn any skill?  Just get rid of the skill list all togather.  Choosing the skills that make up your background but from there your possiablities are near endless.  So even though your character was once amazing con-man, he was ran out of town and banished for whatever reason.  Now over time if he can survive the wilds, then he would become more like a ranger.  Either learning to live in the desert or dying off in the sands.  Characters would change over their life time, instead of being simply stuck doing what ever class they choose at character creation.  

Skills that are no longer used will fall prey to simple atrophy.  So your character after not using a skill could become "rusty" in that skill.  So even though that merchant may of been a warrior and still carries those scars, he might need a little time before he'll be back in the swing of things again.  Armor maker turned pickpocket, may forget how to make a bone arm bracer.  This hopefully would keep twinks from training every skill they can.

I know I'm going to get feed the usual "well warriors can be merchants or aide or blah blah blah" but thats not any where near the same, because my warrior will never have the skills of a merchant or whatever, so why bother?  Also, what if your merchant got screwed out of home and health, and now seeks revenage?  Under the current system, you either don't or email the mud begging to trade your merchant skills for warrior skills.  I think it be pretty interesting to watch a merchant or thief turn brutal killer to get back at those who robbed him.

It might also bump the harsh factor up, sure there may be simply looking basket weaver but are you sure he doesn't know how to kill you with a thumb to the eye?

Naturally all this would exclude the skills of magick.  Hopefully this would keep characters diverse but at the same time take off those code restrictions that is but on them.

[amoeba]

First off let me say that the following is purely academic because I think the coding behind it would be hellaious.

If we are talking about being skills being for like RL then there would be no skills to choose from,  you would simply work on whatever you wished to increase.   But life is not that simple. Being a jack of all trades has it's limitations, namely you never master anything.  

I have a very diverse job and a lot of hobbies, so I do a vast amount off different things. For example part of my job responsibilities is programming.  If I am doing nothing but programming I can do fairly good at it, but often I will be caught up with administrative tasks and research, and not touch a line of code for weeks on end.   Trust me, I feel it when I have to get back into it.  Namely I got rusty.  The same is true with playing guitar,  I have been playing for some time and have gotten to be decent, but a high schooler who has been playing 6 hours a day could probably out do me in some areas.  I could tomorrow decide that I want to learn rock climbing, but other skills will suffer as that one gets better..

Basicly, it would be nice if there was no skill list. Everyone (with the exception of the karma classes)  would have access to all skills, with the trade off being that your skills track your usage.  So everyone could backstab, but only people who pursued a active life of doing that would be any good at it.

Anyway, just thoughts,  most likely too difficult to code up effectively. At least in the short term.

**Edit: nameless beat me too it **

[Tamarin]

This game's been open...what 11 years?  12 years?  Now is not the time to completely revamp the skill/class system.  Even if people were in favor of it, I don't think the staff would be capable of it.  It would take a year to get the game going again.

[Larrath]

Again, my ideal vision of Arm is one with a mundane class and the karma classes above it.
The problem is that making a mundane/classless class work will take a huge amount of work from the staff and, like Tamarin said, it could simply take a year.

The system we have now seems about as good as it could reasonably be.

[Anonymous]

I personally had an idea. (a rare thing, I know.)


Instead of the code saying things like this:
"You don't have the necessary background to learn anything about that."

Every skill that you don't have listed (Except Magickal skills and whatnot) had a cap of let's say.. 15-20(this changes, randomly each PC) out of 100.

But you can only get better at that skill by having someone teach you and you obviously have a -learning_ability in those areas but you could get better and that magicker that joins the byn with no Slashing skill or other weapons skill? He could get a little better, but, it will be hard.

Any thoughts on that sort of idea?

[nameless]

Tamarin & Larrath- I believe we are all aware of that.  I just simply suggested an idea.  I rather it still be considered, maybe one day Arm will have the reasources to pull it off.  I see no reason to just simply give up and settle for less just cause its hard.  This mud may of never came to being if IMM's had that attitude.

[Cale_Knight]

Have a new class that gets a completely random series of skills at creation, chosen from everything.

Put it at the first or second karma tier to keep newbies and untrusted folks from spam-suiciding until they get a nifty set of skills. You might end up with an awesome character, you might end up with sometimes totally worthless, but it's more likely you'll have something neat and unique.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Cale_Knight wrote:

You might end up with an awesome character, you might end up with sometimes totally worthless, but it's more likely you'll have something neat and unique.

And... impossible to explain ICly?