SubClass removal

[HardCarbon]

I have a fairly radical proposal which I am sure will generate lots of flame  

 I  believe that the Stonecarver sub class should be removed from the list of player options untill such time as its between 50-75% as rewarding both to the player and to those around the player as the Forester sub class is.

 As a forester (and I was a damm good one since I actually heard my worthless self refered to a while after I was dead .. folk would ask me to make this. or that (espcially for those with apartments)

  As a stone worker.. I can make lots of crap.. that can't be sold...tools and tool parts that don't actually work code wise (and require aid from a different craft to make)  boat loads of 'household goods' that no house actually needs..  and minor pieces of art  for which the market is .. limited at best....

 And while yes.. if your creative you can create a short term market for some items...You won't do much better then break even...   In my very less then  humble opinion  each of the big cities can only support a single stonecrafter.. while Tuluk.. can easily support multiple foresters.


 And YES I realize that a sub class isnt supposed to be as good as say a full bore merchant..

 Ok.. enough ranting.. flame on!

[Whira's Luck]

I don't think I personally agree with this, since the argument could be made for more than a few subclasses.

The reality is that subclasses are not meant to be substitutions for a primary class in the majority of cases. No one should be picking a subclass with the thought of "Well I can craft a bunch of things and sell it for oodles of sid without having to pick the merchant class." Instead, it should be indicative of a skill or trade you learned while growing up. Maybe something to fall back on if things get really lean, but not as a replacement or primary sid-maker unless you actually are of a merchant class and can utilize your various merchant/crafter talents to make objects you can both sell and use.

If you want to use your stoneworking or <insert craft skill here> to its fullest potential to make sid, then you might want to rethink your primary class choice instead of choosing crafting subguild to make the coin.

What I'd really like to see is crafting requiring specific, coded tools, some of which can only be provided for use in merchant houses, on a more widespread basis, limiting sub-guild and non-merchant house crafters to making the more basic, non-fancy items (and thereby making house crafters both more valuable and a much more lucrative and sought-after position).

[Larrath]

I had a stonecarver once.  He was a blast, and I loved the crafting.

Sure, maybe you can't craft obsidian into katanas and build brick houses for people, but there are tons of things that you -can- craft.  With enough effort, cunning and shamelessness, you'd be surprised what kind of crap you can sell people, and at what prices.

I don't see why this, or any other subguild should be removed.  If anything, I'd rather see more subguilds that would let us min/max better.  Uhm, I mean, make more versatile characters.

[Bestatte]

What I'd REALLY like - and this is what's prevented me from creating a "merchant class" character so far:

Allow people who pick the merchant class, the opportunity to pick any ONE craft as their primary focus, if it's something they would eventually branch onto their skill list.

Example to explain the reason: My hypothetical character comes from a background of armorsmiths. His daddy worked for Salarr as one of their many master armorcrafters. I am hoping to follow in his footsteps, and have been studying armor and been around armorcrafting most of my life. I might not have been taught HOW yet..but that's where I am planning on taking my path to fame and fortune.

But if I currently roll up a merchant, I have to learn basketweaving first, or stonework, or some other thing that might or might not have anything to do with armorsmithing. Why would I want to spend a single sid, or a single hour, learning a whole bunch of other stuff first JUST so I can branch armorsmithing? I picked the merchant class because I want to be involved in a specific craft, with the potential to ultimately become a master at it. If my character was a dwarf, this would seem even more ludicrous to me, having to do task X in ordered to suddenly understand the basics of doing task 47.

So - let merchant class characters pick from the list of branched craft skills, let them pick ONE of those skills to focus on, that would appear in their initial skills list and wouldn't need to branch. And heck - if you want to create checks and balances so people don't abuse it, make it so that if you DO pick that craft, then you cannot branch further along that particular limb. So you'd have to pick very carefully. The rest of your skills list would remain as it usually does when you choose merchant, it's just that ONE craft type that would show up in addition to the starting skills.

[Marauder Moe]

If you have a merchant character who grew up in an armorsmithing family... and you want to start out armorsmithing... then shouldn't take the armormaker subguild?  Seems like your problem is already solved.

As for subguilds, there are several of them FAR less useful than stonecarver.  Bards?  Linguists?  Con Artists?  None of them come with coded money-making skills at all.

[Cuusardo]

Bards' and linguists' skills given by the subguilds can indeed allow them to make good money.  You just have to figure out how to use them.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, by coded money-making skill I mean a skill that can earn you money off NPCs.  I'm by no means bashing those subguilds.  In fact, I think those three are the subguilds of my first three characters.

[Cuusardo]

Not with the bard subclass.

Anyway, I think it's a good thing that there are skills that end up pushing people towards PCs rather than NPCs to make money.  It stimulates roleplay, plots, the economy, etc.

[Tlaloc]

I'd really like to echo what Whira's Luck posted.

I see many, many people making characters with the subguild in mind as their 'way to make money'. The Subguild is NOT a tool to use as your primary source of income. It should be used as something to help flesh out the background of your character, and possibly use it on the side. Your primary guild should be your 'primary ' way of making money.

This isn't 100%, of course...since as well all know, warriors can be aides and merchants, and mages can be assassins, etc. etc. etc. But you should not be relying on your subguild to carry your character financially. I'd rather see people use roleplay, and find jobs that are suitable for the character, rather than simply forage, craft, sell sell sell, rinse/repeat.

In response to Bestette: the scenario you're proposing sounds to me like a character who would have the Merchant primary guild, and the 'Armorcrafter' subguild. There's nothing stopping you from doing that.

In response to other things posted so far: frankly, I don't think there are any useless subguilds. There is no difference between any of the skills in a subguild, than skills you would get in your normal, stock guild. Just as in a regular Guild, if you cannot, or do not find or use the opportunty to make good use of the skills you've been given, its not the fault of the subguild, heh.

[Spoon]

I've had characters make money using no skills what-so-ever. I'm sure lots of people have, too.

So far I agree with the idea that subguilds are for shaping your character. Some subguilds are better for making money, but hey life's unfair, and Zalanthan life is especially unfair.

[Dracul]

Making a Sekrti magicker/guard(or other) is one of the best ways to force yourself to learn how to make some sids without any skills.

One of mine was a great merchant...till he got ate.


I see nothing wrong with using your subguild as your primary source of income (IF...it fits) if you're a warrior/crafter.  Just because you know how to fight doesn't mean you -want- to.
Basically, I understand and in many cases will echo the sentiments to use your main guild, but as long as things are in character I wouldn't hope for so many ideas to plauge it.

[Bestatte]

If you have a merchant character who grew up in an armorsmithing family... and you want to start out armorsmithing... then shouldn't take the armormaker subguild?  Seems like your problem is already solved.

As for subguilds, there are several of them FAR less useful than stonecarver.  Bards?  Linguists?  Con Artists?  None of them come with coded money-making skills at all.

Because as the docs, immortals, and many players continue to point out, the subguilds are not intended to allow your character to "be" that thing as a profession, but instead just a way of fleshing out the character. It's why you can't "master" any of those crafts UNLESS you pick Merchant as your primary guild.

And if you're picking Merchant as your primary guild, then why would you want to add a redundant subguild, when Merchant already comes with all those skills (though you would still have to branch it)?

If merchant already HAS the ability to be an armorsmith - AND master it..then why in the world would I want to be a merchant/armorsmith? I wanna be an armorsmith, and maybe add some non-crafting something like archer, or forester, or scavenger, so maybe if I had to I'd be able to chop my own wood for woodsplints, or take down my own duskhorn for its hide, or forage for my own stone to make buttons on my uber buttoned jerkin of mass defense.

[joyofdiscord]

I just wanted to say that I've played a stonecrafter and it was fun.  If you feel it's not useful enough, just don't choose it.  Seems simple enough to me.

[Wandering Merchant]

If you want to start with a specialized skill of stoneworking or whatever that your poppa taught you, then take that subguild along with the merchant guild.  Subguild is supposed to represent the past, and main guild present/future.  You could your background so that poppa taught you how to survive out there, and not much else.  Or if you're a stickler and you want to keep the specialized skill that poppa taught you, but still worried about survivability out in the wilds, then you should consider exploring alternatives to going out alone.  Like, hmm...hiring the byn, or independent guards/mercs for protection.  Or hiring desperate people to go out and scrounge for you cheap.  

Easier said than done, sometimes, but worth the effort cause the storyline often is better.  It sounds like you need to stop worrying so much about what advantages skills give you, and focus on RP.  Or at least lessen it.
My 2 sids

[Bogre]

Why would you want to take something you'll get eventually? Because like Bestatte said, if you want to go straight to armorsmithing without making tons of baskets first.

[Bestatte]

Wandering merchant, I think once again my posts have been misinterpreted. I don't worry about it at all. It isn't a concern to me whatsoever. I just choose not to create characters who are designed to become master at any particular craft, unless it's something I learn already comes with the initial skills list on the merchant class. There's plenty of other things I can do besides trying to be a master crafter, and I already know a character can make a shitload of sids without ever mastering anything at all, so coinage isn't an issue either.

Personally, none of this affects me one way or another. But as I said in my initial post in this thread, I -would- love to be able to do that, IF the game allowed it. It doesn't, so I'll just pick something else. No big deal. Honest.

[Marauder Moe]

I -would- love to be able to do that, IF the game allowed it. It doesn't, so I'll just pick something else.

But... the game DOES allow it.  If you want to play a merchant with a certain crafting skill already branched, pick guild_merchant AND the appropriate  crafting subguild.  Its the exact same effect, except you're missing a few skills that a merchant without a crafting subguild might have.

[Bestatte]

It's a redundancy, that is currently necessary. Nose-picking comes with nosepicking, value, analyze, haggle. Merchant comes with value, analyze, haggle at much better levels, PLUS basketweaving leads to nose-picking if you weave 10 days worth of baskets first.

Merchant already HAS all that stuff. I shouldn't -need- to pick a subguild, which Tlaloc just reminded us is -not- intended to be our character's primary focus, just so that I can start with nose-picking - ESPECIALLY since it already shows up with Merchant after 10 days played.

It is redundant. And just to be repetitive: It is redundant.

[Marauder Moe]

It's only redundant after 10-20 days of playing and several thousand coins worth of practice materials.  Before then it may be the difference between moving on with your merchant's intended trade or starving to death (or being forced to join a clan).

[Angela Christine]

I've made a decent living as stonecarver.  The nice thing about stone carvers is that many things can be made from just a single "ingredient" so you don't have to figure out complex crafting recipies right away.  You can also make do with a single tool (that you can make yourself!) for a long time, unlike, for example, a tailor who ought to have all sorts of stuff like needles, thread, a little finger hat (what are those called?) scissors, etc.  It's a money maker all right.  I don't know if this is still the case, but when my most successful stonecarver worked in Allanak there were no NPCs that would buy containers in the main part of the city, which made it hard to unload the many container objects a stonecarver can craft, but I still made a fine living once I stopped collecting stones I knew could only be made into unsellable items (I sold a few vases to PCs, but there was no reason to keep a bunch of them in stock -- stone is heavy).

Stonecarver tips:

1.  Shop around.  Someone somewhere will buy everything you can make.  Seriously, I've never crafted a single item as a stone worker that couldn't be sold to an NPC.  Some items can't be sold in particular cities though, often for obvious reasons.  If the weapons shop won't buy your knife, then it must be a tool not a weapon.  The tool shop won't buy it either?  Bugger.  Keep looking, you will find a shop that buys cutlery.  Don't restrict yourself only to the shops in the main bazzaar.  Some of the little shops you never buy junk from, and that you may not have even realized buy anything, just may surpise you.

2.  Try to use a variety of stones.  If all you use is sandstone, then you will have a limited repetoir.  Of course in most places finding anything but sandstone, or perhaps sandstone and obsidian, is a challenge.  Take it as a challenge.  Finding a source of "rare" stones is the main secret of a successful stonecarver.  A city can easily support 3 PC stonecarvers if one of them has a source of alabaster and marble, one has source of jasper and grey stone, and the third has a source of onyx and obsidian.

3. Avoid buying your stones from shops if you are not rich.  Like any newbie crafter you will go broke if you try to buy your materials from shops.  Some explorer-types will be happy to sell you stones, since exploring typically doesn't pay well and foraging is relatively simple work, you can usually find a price between what the shops pay for stone and what the shops charge for stone that will make you both happy.  If you are completely broke or you can't find anyone willing to get stone for you, then you will have to do a little exploring on your own to find a source of unusual stones.  Good luck, and watch out for beasties.

4.  Foraging for fun and profit.  The key to foraging is to not throw anything out until you are sure it is both useless and worthless.  Hint: I've never foraged a single item that was both useless and worthless, everything is useful to somebody.  Again, stone is heavy, so you may want to keep just a single example of stones that you personally haven't found a use for on hand.  
4. a) As a new stonecarver you may find it is more profitable to sell some of the stones you find that you could raw, rather than trying to craft them yourself and losing most to breakage -- there is no shame in selling raw materials.  
4. b)  

The best way to avoid useless stones and maximize your foraging time (and profit!) is to get some foraging buddies.  A fletcher and a jeweler would be ideal companions for a stonecarver, but there are many other combinations that work.  A merchant can be a very useful buddy, because they can use almost everything that you consider useless, and they are happy to have companions that can fight.  Each of you will find stones that you can not use, but your buddies can, so you will each have a full bag of "useful" stones that much quicker.  Foraging with a buddy also makes it much less dull.  There are only so many ways to emote looking for loose rocks or chipping them from the living stone of a cliff, if you have someone to talk to you cut down on the boring emotes without feeling like a skill-spamming twink.  If you are very lucky you may find a buddy who knows different stone sources than you do.

5.  Join a clan.  Some clans will provide you with stones, information on where to find good stones, or guards/companions to assist you on your own search for stones.  Some clans will have no interest in your stonecarver abilities, but you may be able to pursue it as a hobby in your spare time -- just be careful that you don't get trapped in a clan where it will be impossible for you to collect or buy stones, or one where your "hobby" will interfere with your job and get you into trouble.

6.  Find a mentor.  A newbie stonecarver is basically at an apprentice level of skill, so why not be an apprentice?  Ok, finding a teacher is hard, but it can work if you get lucky.  A master stonecarver knows the tricks of the trade, and can probably use a buddy/apprentice if he thinks about it, if only because an apprentice means another pair of hands, another strong back and another kank or two to help haul the heavy stone around.
[/list]

Because as the docs, immortals, and many players continue to point out, the subguilds are not intended to allow your character to "be" that thing as a profession, but instead just a way of fleshing out the character. It's why you can't "master" any of those crafts UNLESS you pick Merchant as your primary guild.

And if you're picking Merchant as your primary guild, then why would you want to add a redundant subguild, when Merchant already comes with all those skills (though you would still have to branch it)?

Because subguilds are designed to flesh out your character.  Subguilds are there to help your skills match your background.  A merchant/armorer will be making money as an armorer much more quickly than either a merchant/X or an X/armorer.  A Merchant is something of a jack-of-all-trades-except-fighting, if you want to specialize immediately you take a subguild.  The only time that becomes really inconvinient is if you want to make a human nomad whose family are the tribe's armorers, which would probably take a special app or something if you didn't want to work your way up to it.

There are no reduntant subguilds.  You just have to decide what is more important to you: to start as an armorer or as a third-rate hunter who has the potential to become an armorer, because even with the hunter subguild (or other martial subguild) a merchant will never be a great hunter.

I don't think a "specialize in any skill" would work, I suspect there would be a rash of people with the "my family were wagon wrights" background, if only because people are curious about the rarely seen skills.   :wink:  And if it were fair for merchants, then why not let every PC pick a specialty reguardless of guild?  My father was a burglar too, and he taught me to make my own picks.  My mom was a ranger too, and she taught me to the secrets of poisons or their cures.  I come from a long line of Preservers, and my grandpa taught me the Hadoken spell, to help me fight evil defilers.

No, I think subclasses are the way to go.  Getting TWO subclasses would be nifty.  Orgasmically nifty.  But they probably won't go for it.   :cry:


Angela Christine

[wizturbo]

Haddoken! (that means I agree with AC)

[Twilight]

If merchant already HAS the ability to be an armorsmith - AND master it..then why in the world would I want to be a merchant/armorsmith? I wanna be an armorsmith, and maybe add some non-crafting something like archer, or forester, or scavenger, so maybe if I had to I'd be able to chop my own wood for woodsplints, or take down my own duskhorn for its hide, or forage for my own stone to make buttons on my uber buttoned jerkin of mass defense.

Because you are picking your subguild based on your IC background (family of armorsmiths), rather than picking it based on OOC concerns (what skills it gives you)?

[John]

It's a redundancy, that is currently necessary. Nose-picking comes with nosepicking, value, analyze, haggle. Merchant comes with value, analyze, haggle at much better levels, PLUS basketweaving leads to nose-picking if you weave 10 days worth of baskets first.

Bestatte wants to maximize the skills her character gets

I personally have no problem doing the merchant/subguild combo. And I agree with Tlaloc and AC. There is no skill that is useless. It's possible to sell anything to PCs and NPCs. It just takes time. If you're starting out or if you aren't a merchant, your not a master crafter. If you don't act like you are you'll find it easier to sell stuff

If you want to sell stuff that you make, I recommend joining a clan or having another way to make money or play a Rukkian (I've found Rukkians are the least dependant on 'sid. I don't see this as IC info as imms in the past have explained that's why Vivaduans and Rukkians are the lowest karma level for magickers ). I don't recommend having a craft be your main money-maker if you've never played that craft before. I've done this before in the past and had a lot of difficulty surviving. However being a thief/crafter isn't a bad combination (if you can play a thief well ). You'll have a lot of trouble surviving if you play a Nilazi/stone-crafter if you've never played a stone-crafter before. The crafts take knowledge to play well (which I don't have ).

I see many, many people making characters with the subguild in mind as their 'way to make money'. The Subguild is NOT a tool to use as your primary source of income. It should be used as something to help flesh out the background of your character, and possibly use it on the side. Your primary guild should be your 'primary ' way of making money.

As a rule for newbies (which I'd include myself in for most crafter roles), I agree. But on the most part, I disagree for seasoned players. There are plenty of roles out there that don't require any skills (although skills can make them it easier). So the guild is pointless for them. I also imagine that if your knowledgable about a certain craft, you can survive on it as your main income with a subguild. Sure you won't be an uber-crafter, but you'll be able to survive and have fun (heck, it could keep you at a realistic income level which is apparently very difficult ).

I also can't help but think of Xygax (I think it was him) who said he once saw a magicker who wouldn't learn of his abilities until a very specific set of events happened. I imagine many such characters would have to survive on their subguild, possibly their entire lives

[Xygax]

And if you're picking Merchant as your primary guild, then why would you want to add a redundant subguild, when Merchant already comes with all those skills (though you would still have to branch it)?

Along the lines of what Tlaloc said, redundancy isn't the issue.  If you want to be a merchant whose focus/background is as an armormaker, pick the armor making subguild.  Plenty of people pick subguilds whose skills overlap (partly or fully) with the primary guild, and the advantages are clear, you either get a boost on skills you already have, or a headstart on skills you might get later, or a chance to define your background more completely by adding some new skills that you can backup (ie. if someone challenged you to prove you had it, you could).

-- X

[Maybe42or54]

I agree with Bestatte.
If subclasses are supposed to mean " what you have been doing for the past 13+ years of your life" then they should be either starting a lot higher, or you can progress a lot faster than with your main guild options.

And I don't want to spend 28 days crafting so that I can have what is in my background. Or else, I'll be playing to catch up to my background.

Just what I think.

[Marauder Moe]

Subguild skills do start at a higher level.  However, main guild skills have a much higher cap and I believe they improve faster.  If you have a skill that you get both from your subguild AND from your main guild, I believe you get the best of both.  The initial boost as well as the faster progression and higher cap.  Even if it's a skill you have to BRANCH in your main guild.