Stamina

[Rhyden]

Just a quick question, why is it that stamina can't be regained when standing? I know I can catch my wind by standing, why can't Zalanthians?

[Armaddict]

While standing, your head is at a higher elevation, and with the unstable atmospheric conditions of zalanthas, that throws off your equilibrium.  Not only that, but even though it doesn't say so, your head is at just the right elevation for sand to be constantly whipping about, so that you're always staying just as tired because of waving your arms around frantically just to keep from losing your sight permanently.

Actually, I just don't know.  

[Forest Junkie]

I've always just said "Because it's damn hot".

You want to regain mvs? Just hang out in the shade.

[Rhyden]

Armaddict, I was actually believing you until the part where you said you didn't know. lol

I've always just said "Because it's damn hot".

You want to regain mvs? Just hang out in the shade.

True, but you'd think if you stood under a tree, you'd still be relaxing a little. Right?

[Forest Junkie]

*shrug* If that is the case, why not just rest then change your ldesc to "is leaning against a tree"

That's how I do it.

[Rhyden]

*shrug* If that is the case, why not just rest then change your ldesc to "is leaning against a tree"

That's how I do it.

Ya, but it's just not the same as standing and regaining stamina, which is impossible. *Shrug

[Larrath]

It is possible to stand and regain stamina.  It's just slow.

You can't regain it completely, but that's how it is.  Just standing around for a bunch of hours can be tiring.  Also, sitting or lying back is more comfortable, and this is the code's way to reflect this.

[Rhyden]

It is possible to stand and regain stamina.  It's just slow.

You can't regain it completely, but that's how it is.  Just standing around for a bunch of hours can be tiring.  Also, sitting or lying back is more comfortable, and this is the code's way to reflect this.

Really? I had no idea. Guess I'll have to stand around idly more often.

[Larrath]

Really really.  At least unless I have an extremely poor memory.

[Rhyden]

Really really.  At least unless I have an extremely poor memory.

Really, really, really, really? Jk. I'll have to try it out, but you may want to check your score again, Larrath, make sure your wisdom isn't very poor.  :wink:

(I'm such a loser at times)

[Halaster]

Really really.  At least unless I have an extremely poor memory.

Your memory is correct.  You can gain stamina while standing, it's just very very slow, as you said.

[Rhyden]

Really really.  At least unless I have an extremely poor memory.

Your memory is correct.  You can gain stamina while standing, it's just very very slow, as you said.

That's awesome, now I don't have to go to all that work and type 'rest' anymore.  :wink:

[Xamminy]

Rhyden...you'll be standing for hours RL before you regain anything worth cheering about.

[Aldiel]

Changing the topic slightly, but not wanting to start an entirely new thread, I ask this question, "Does increased endurance speed your stamina replenish?  If not, do particular rooms speed stamina replenish?"  I'm almost 100% positive my present character regains stamina faster than any other character I've ever had.  Lol, I hope it's not a glitch, it's rather nice.

[Maybe42or54]

Yes, shaded rooms and dark rooms, (just like in real life) Are easier to rest in.

The better your endurance, the more you have and the faster you feel ready to tackle the world again!

[fearwig]

It would be nice to see the rest command stripped of the "sits down" echo. I frequently rest and then change ldesc or emote (both, generally) to indicate that I'm leaning on something to catch my breath, and while that's more realistic it's still giving a double-impression.

A tangent, maybe, but I thought it was relevant. It makes sense that you might rest while standing, and that it'd be totally effective, so long as you aren't just standing up as usual. Maybe a "takes a relaxed posture" echo would be more appropriate. Just a thought.

[Maybe42or54]

Stripped of? No.
I don't. I figure rest to be sitting down anyway, that is how I rest.


I don't feel better after leaning against something, my knees start to ache after a while of it.

Changed, maybe. But let's not drop it.

[fearwig]

When you are not doing anything, especially while in a relaxed position (such as leaning, sitting, or lying down, but surely also while standing in a relaxed way), you are "resting". When you get tired in real life, you take a breather--you don't necessarily sit right down on the ground. Considering that in-game you gain an amount of stamina very near to 0 (despite whatever miniscule gains you actually get, over the course of an hour or whatever), it makes sense to me that 'rest' be amended to be a very general change of position.

You don't have to agree, but then I'd expect more of an explanation than "That's how I rest!" Because I'm rather sure that, unless you're absolutely different from everyone else on the planet, you probably "rest" while standing, too.

But whatever, it's not that big of a deal. I believe it's acceptable to roleplay (emote/ldesc) resting as leaning against a post, or a kank, or a wall when resting. The coded change is not absolutely necessary.

[fearwig]

you can regain it while standing, it is like real life though, dependant on how tired you are, where you are, and how much wind there is.

While that's true, I don't think you can say the degree to which it's set up is very realistic. As it is, taking it all IC and literal, you have to "stand up", even in an ideal setting (such as a shaded street or tavern) for something like half a day, just to catch your breath after being moderately winded. Standing around, even in poor circumstances, like hot sun and wind, should regain a fair amount of stamina, really--it should never drop down to the point of nearly no regeneration at all. Sure, it's challenging, but it's not realism anymore at that point.

I don't think it's that big of a deal, but it'd be nice to see some overhauls in the stamina code to reflect better realism. I'm not sure how anybody could defend the realism of the current state.

[elvenchipmunk]

I really think that it should be easier to regain stamina. IG, I've sat in the grasses, and it's taken me twenty minutes to get 12 stamina. At home, say it's really hot outside, say, 30 degrees celsius. If I'm playing baseball, get really tired, and decide to take a break, I take a break for about five minutes before I can get right back up at full strength, and start playing again. I think this needs to be better represented in Zalanthas, it's -way- too hard to get a decent amount of stamina back, IMO.

[Bestatte]

I really think that it should be easier to regain stamina. IG, I've sat in the grasses, and it's taken me twenty minutes to get 12 stamina. At home, say it's really hot outside, say, 30 degrees celsius. If I'm playing baseball, get really tired, and decide to take a break, I take a break for about five minutes before I can get right back up at full strength, and start playing again. I think this needs to be better represented in Zalanthas, it's -way- too hard to get a decent amount of stamina back, IMO.

Now imagine it's 40 degrees celsius, you're wearing a leather-lined baseball uniform and a baseball cap made of leather-lined tortoiseshell. You have 40 pounds worth of stuff in a backpack hanging from your backpack, and your baseball field is in the middle of 2 square miles of 4-foot-deep sand.

Now tell me you need only 5 minutes before you can get back up at full strength.

[elvenchipmunk]

I really think that it should be easier to regain stamina. IG, I've sat in the grasses, and it's taken me twenty minutes to get 12 stamina. At home, say it's really hot outside, say, 30 degrees celsius. If I'm playing baseball, get really tired, and decide to take a break, I take a break for about five minutes before I can get right back up at full strength, and start playing again. I think this needs to be better represented in Zalanthas, it's -way- too hard to get a decent amount of stamina back, IMO.

Now imagine it's 40 degrees celsius, you're wearing a leather-lined baseball uniform and a baseball cap made of leather-lined tortoiseshell. You have 40 pounds worth of stuff in a backpack hanging from your backpack, and your baseball field is in the middle of 2 square miles of 4-foot-deep sand.

Now tell me you need only 5 minutes before you can get back up at full strength.

I was exaggerating a little. And, in the four foot sands I think it's almost accurate the way it is, but my example was in the grasses, long grasses. And what if you have light armor? Not carrying much? Or, you're sitting down, and therefor the weight on your back wouldn't really matter.

I may have been a little crazy in saying five minutes, but still, I think that even if it's forty degrees outside, and there's some harsh sands, you should get more stamina back in twenty minutes than 12, or 20 or whatever, you should be getting back up to almost full. Of course, I've not much experience in the desert. But I still think the stamina system is too harsh, and it should be easier to regain.

[Bestatte]

Well from my experience, there are a lot of factors that go into stamina regen. No actual knowledge of the code mind you - just personal experience with different PCs I've had.

1) If you're not in the shade, you're sitting, immovable, with the sun burning a hole in your head. If you're wearing a head cover, multiply the indirect heat under the cover by 5 and reduce the direct burn by 5. This SHOULD be distracting enough to slow down any chance of regen.

2) If you -are- in the shade, then consider the following criteria:

How long were you doing something OTHER than just sitting there, when you realized you needed to rest? Code-wise, this translates to, HOW low is your stamina now, anyway? If you've chosen to wait until you're under 30 stamina points, and your current max (with clothes) is over 150, then accept the fact that you're gonne be fucked for awhile.

If you were smart enough (or had the luxury of not being chased by a bad meanie thing) to take it easy in intervals, and rest before you get too far below 100, then you should be fine. In the shade. If you have water with you and aren't thirsty. Or injured. Or poisoned. And your wisdom or strength or whatever stat is needed is better than average.

[Angela Christine]

You also have to take into account who you are, or rather who your character is.  Are you a delf ranger who has been making out with Suk-Krath since the day you were born, or some 'rinthi pickpocket who just decided it looked like a good day for a walk in the wilderness?  I wouldn't be suprised if your race, class and hometown had an affect on your regeneration rate.


AC

[spawnloser]

Also, keep in mind that getting yourself down to less than 10% of your stamina is something that us in real life have NEVER done.  That is exhaustion on a level that we probably can not understand, being lazy computer users.  We probably never get below 75% of our stamina.

[LBO]

Also, keep in mind that getting yourself down to less than 10% of your stamina is something that us in real life have NEVER done.  That is exhaustion on a level that we probably can not understand, being lazy computer users.  We probably never get below 75% of our stamina.

Heh, not a bad point. I remember I walked up some mountatin in Colorado. We had to start at 2am to avoid being at the top during midday thunderstorms. Of course me being an idiot didn't sleep during the day leading up to this 2am start so I'd already been on the go for about 14 hours before we began. To the top and back took us a solid 17 hours of pretty much non-stop walking / climbing. I was shattered by the time we got back. Went straight to bed and slept like a log for a full 16 hours. Standing around wasn't going to fix my stamina level - I needed to take a serious rest.

[fearwig]

Also, keep in mind that getting yourself down to less than 10% of your stamina is something that us in real life have NEVER done.  That is exhaustion on a level that we probably can not understand, being lazy computer users.  We probably never get below 75% of our stamina.

And yet, many of us have chopped wood vigorously for a few RL hours in a row, which by code standards can wear you down really quickly. So either what you're saying is exaggerative, or uh, Zalanthan trees are some tough old bastards, or...

Realistically, though, wearing yourself out to the point that you can't even walk isn't that hard. It's not like we do it every day, but I imagine we've all experienced it once or twice, or come rather close to it. Like I said, I think your statement is rather exaggerative.

75% of your stamina is what you get after running a few blocks. I don't know about you, bub, but I've damn near wore myself to death running up the Dupont Circle metro escalator steps when it's out of order and I'm late to be somewhere. If I did it twice, I'd be entirely, physically unable to walk more than a block, even with a raving knife-wielding psychopath behind me. I'd say doing that brisk upstairs walk once brings me to 50% or lower, right there.


AND YET... despite all that, you know what I do when I get to the top? I stand there, maybe with my hands on my knees. Maybe I even walk slowly. And in ten minutes I'm fit as a fiddle, or at least a hell of a lot better than I started out. I regained stamina within less than half a day without actually sitting on the ground? Wow, I'm superman!

Even with the glaring Zalanthan sun (a factor probably compensated for somewhat by the relative better health of a Zalanthan than yours truly), the fact is that recooperation is all about *relative* strain. If you were straining yourself, and now you're not, you're going to get better! Even if you're not in the most comfortable position you can imagine, you're going to feel a hell of a lot better -not- hacking at rock than you did when you -were- hacking at rock. And it's not going to take you half a day to feel the effects. I'm not clamoring for more realism in the game, since I'm sure my little rants are readily ignored--but I thought I'd try and bring my bright little ray of personal sunshine into the depths of this thread. Thanks for bearing it.

[Angela Christine]

AND YET... despite all that, you know what I do when I get to the top? I stand there, maybe with my hands on my knees. Maybe I even walk slowly. And in ten minutes I'm fit as a fiddle, or at least a hell of a lot better than I started out. I regained stamina within less than half a day without actually sitting on the ground? Wow, I'm superman!

And when you started walking, did you walk down a city sidewalk or go for an off-trail hike through miles of wilderness?

I'm not sure the temporary exhaustion of walking up a staircase would even count as a coded stamina drop, I think that is a situation that in-game is usually left to roleplay rather than code.  Most staircases have no stamina cost whatsoever, or have such a low cost that you would have to walk up 30 or 40 flights of stairs to become completely exhausted.  Walking up just a couple flights of stairs builds up lactic acid in leg muscles, but that can be cleared quickly with slow movement and is not the same as total body exhaustion.  Becoming totally physical exhausted usually takes hours of hard exhertion, such as training for the Olympics or perhaps a whole day of unpleasant manual labour.

Maybe that is the problem: for the sake of playability the code lets us work too quickly, accomplishing in a few minutes what ought to take many hours.  In our world an infantry man might walk 20 miles a day under a heavy pack and be very, very tired at the end of the day.  In Zalanthas even a human can walk 20 miles or more in under an hour, if he doesn't stop to look around, think, and emote.  The movement speed has to be a little bit faster than one might expect, because in the real world you don't need to stop for a moment before you can scratch your ass or think "I hate wilderness," but in a text game your typing speed can really slow your character down.

Likewise, chopping down a tree with a stone axe could easily take all day, and leave you exhausted at the end of it.  But our pleasantly spammy lumberjacking code allows you to accomplish a whole day of chopping in just a few minutes.  Later chopping the log into smaller pieces of wood takes little or no stamina at all (I honestly don't remember).  I bet chopping down a tree really is harder than chopping up a log, especially if Zalanthan Baobab trees are anything like the ones on Earth.

http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~gorilla/image/others/baobab.jpeg
http://www.aerobatics.ws/GEI/images/MADAGASCAR/baobab_793x1089.gif
I wouldn't want to tackle one of those bastards with a stone axe.  


The code lets us expend energy very quickly, allowing us to preform almost super-human feats.  We generally regain that energy pretty quickly too.  You hiked many miles (absurdly quickly) accross broken terrain until you were litterly so tired that you couldn't take another step.  After 20 minutes of rest (2 hours in-game) lying there in what was probably at least slightly unpleasant weather, you were able to get up and hike a few more miles.  

I don't see the problem.  If you want to move even more quickly, get yourself a tent.  Tents are like magick potions of stamina restoration.  Lumberjacks, miners and foragers with tents can make back their investment incredibly quickly.


Angela Christine

[fearwig]

My complaint in this thread isn't that we expend energy too quickly or that we don't regain it quickly enough. I can see you probably jumped to that from the way the thread became derailed when I gave my answers to others' sidetracked comments.

The problem is that you should regain a larger portion of that energy simply by standing there doing nothing than you do. I think it should actually take a bit longer to regain it while sitting.

Alternatively, I think the code should be amended so that "resting" doesn't include an echo that specifies a sitting position, so much as a relaxed position. It's an RP issue, not a code issue. That's the best way to fix this. While "resting" you couldn't do work, obviously, or walk. You are just standing there, relaxed. Maybe a bonus to resting while sitting, sure--I know already that there's a bonus to just sitting alone, so I imagine that wouldn't even have to be recoded very thoroughly.


And if we're to believe our character is dragging one or even two of those logs back to town, you know damn well that's not what the baobabs outside Tuluk are like.

And, for the record, if you think that the escalators coming up from the Dupont metro are a "staircase", that is a lot like saying the tree above is a houseplant. The thing is, no matter what, no matter where you are, if you -stand there-, you are not spending a lot of energy. If you are talking about these people who perform feats of superhuman stamina, well damnit, they aren't going to have this huge strain just from supporting their bodies on their own stupid legs.

Whenever I point out a silliness in the code (such as having to be 'sitting' to regain any stamina), I'm confronted with the implication that I want the world to be easier, somehow. I don't think that would make it much easier, frankly. Just more realistic. And it would keep me from having to make 'emote excuses' by ldescing that I'm leaning against my kank, or a tree, or what have you, when my echo just said very plainly that I am sitting on the dirty ground.

[joyofdiscord]

While "resting" you couldn't do work, obviously, or walk. You are just standing there, relaxed. Maybe a bonus to resting while sitting, sure--I know already that there's a bonus to just sitting alone, so I imagine that wouldn't even have to be recoded very thoroughly.

So far as I know, character positions aren't cumulative.  Rather, you can be "sitting" or "resting" but not both at the same time.  That's how I understand it, at least.  I could be wrong, but if not, having a standing/resting and a sitting/resting would be a major code change, keeping in mind that every single command has to have a value that determines what positions it can be used in.

[fearwig]

If "resting" and "sitting" are mutually exclusive, you can just give sitting a marginally greater regen value than resting, and leave the commands that can be used as is. Don't see any reason they have to be changed, considering the very point of the positions is the same (i.e. you can't walk while in a resting position standing, you can't chop trees while in a resting position while standing). Really, everything would be the same except for some base values and the echo. And it would get rid of the stupid implication that resting is some weird combination of sitting and sleeping, and that sitting in this awkward reclining position somehow magically makes your body very comfortable.

Makes sense, won't you say?

[Bestatte]

I thought there were 2 different rests. At least, the echoes show there are.

So and so is here, resting.

So and so is reclining here, resting.


And when you're standing and then type rest, you get a different echo than when you're sitting and type rest.

[fearwig]

When you're standing and type rest, you sit and rest. That's what the echo says. Try it out.

[Bestatte]

Right, that's what I said. And when you're already sitting, and type rest, you lay down.

[moab]

If I am sitting and type rest I get "you are already resting."

The procedure I used was:

Char standing
type rest
You sit down and rest your tired bones.
type rest
you are already resting.

[Delirium]

You can 'sit' as well.

>sit
You sit down.
>rest
You lie down. (or something like that.)
>stand
You rise from the ground, and clamber to your feet.
>sit
You sit down.
>stand
You stand up.
>rest
You sit down and rest your tired bones.

[moab]

are any of you trying this before your post?

I just did this:
stand
char standing
sit
you sit down
rest
you rest your tired bones

Nothing about laying down.

[Bardex]

Never mind.

[Angela Christine]

They could add ANOTHER entire state, call it "lean."  (Other possible names: slump, slouch, droop, loiter.)  Regeneration would be slower than sitting, but faster than standing.

AC

[Maybe42or54]

And an added benefit, you wouldn't get the major bad mojo from being sat down.

[fearwig]

Plus there's the fact that sitting down in the middle of a wave dune to catch your breath is, uh--stupid? I simply can't imagine it, can you? You'd stand there, pausing for a moment... but you wouldn't drop to the ground until you were damn near ready to die.

I still say the best way to implement would be to have "rest" while standing put you into this standing rest position, while "rest" while sitting would put you into the normal "even more resty rest" position. After that would be sleep. Plain and simple.

[Bestatte]

I also would love to have an append to rest, that automatically changes your ldesc (so you don't have to type rest, and THEN change your ldesc - never know when someone is looking at your room from a distance JUST before you hit the enter key).

Something like..
>You are standing.

rest ldesc (@ crouches here, watching cautiously.)

or

rest ldesc (@ lays here barely conscious.)

Cuz, just because you're sitting or laying down, doesn't mean you're not *capable* of the "fight or flight mode" at a moment's notice.

Catch me completely asleep in bed when my cat suddenly decides to tap my nose with her paw. I'm UP and AWAKE and ready to start my day.

[Delirium]

Bestatte:

rest (sprawling back senseless on the ground);change ldesc lies here, barely conscious.

[moab]

Plus there's the fact that sitting down in the middle of a wave dune to catch your breath is, uh--stupid?.

Assuming you had another option, yeah, it would be stupid. That's why an experienced traveler might carry a tent, a sleeping mat, maybe a sleeping run and some other shelter with them.

[Bestatte]

I can't stack commands. I have no idea why, but that's just how it is. I'd love to though. I poked around in my mushclient looking for "special keys" and there was nothing out of sorts that I could find.

But for whatever reason, I can't use the ; key as a function to stack commands.

[fearwig]

Mushclient? Ick. Zmud is my baby. It's free, too! If you're unscrupulous.

I am pretty sure zmud is the only one that uses ;, but you see it everywhere as the stack key as a result.

[moab]

Or perhaps you toggled off "special characters" in general or that special character in particular?

In zMud, I turn off most special characters so I can use the emote language. Sometimes I hit the ; key as well and then I can't stack commands.

I would also (for those who stack commands (sometimes I'll stack a think with an emote or an emote and action and a think) to becareful about command stacking as it can be abused badly.

Also, consider using self-imposed lag between stacked actions like #wa 2000 (to wait 2 seconds) between two stacked commands so you don't spam watchers with your stacks.

Just a thought.

In general - I think stacking is bad - but it does have its uses, as I mentioned, when stacking think/emote/action commbinations.