Playerkilling

[Yokunama]

To whomever you are....

It was obvious that you attacked me thinking that I was AFK and my character was sitting out there like a pack of fresh lunch meat. You just happened to stumble upon the face of death wrapped up as a pack of meat! Just looking at people and attacking them is not the way you go about killing people. This is a world where you do not just go picking on people just because "you" (not your character) think they are weak and would be easy game.

Just because people do not move does not mean they are AFK or LINK DEAD.

Futhermore, if you are going to kill someone please try to do it in some sort of style and fashing. Later on in the game, you will find out that this will not please most people in the game if you try to pk them this way. I tried playing the role of a very good victim, but you disappointed me with your horriable attempt to roleplay. Just looking at people, trying to determine that they have a new or well developed character, and attacking them without no emoting whatsoever is not going to get it for you pal.

Try do something helpful to us all and try to help the playerbase instead of destroying it. My character could have easily wiped the terrains of Armageddon with your character's entrails, but I tried to be nice this time. Perhaps you would take this advice.

[Rhyden]

To whomever killed Yokunama's character like that, shame.

Yokunama, this email would be better suited for the imms to see rather than the entire playerbase. The imms will know who did this and can send them a more personal email.

Regards,
-Rhyden

[Yokunama]

Erm...

They didn't kill me. I was the one being nice enough to let them go and play the victim.

[Rhyden]

Erm, alright. I wasn't quite sure exactly what happened. Anyways, this is -way- too IC for the GDB anyways, so I won't ask any more questions.

[SanityAssassin]

:gives Yokunama ten cool points.

[HardCarbon]

Erm, alright. I wasn't quite sure exactly what happened. Anyways, this is -way- too IC for the GDB anyways, so I won't ask any more questions.

Why doesn't name a character .. name .. place..  etc.. Mebby YOU know who the person behind the ID is.. but most don't and won't recongnize it (well I didn't)  cept for the person involved.


 One basic problem is.. the best target a hunter can have.. is a PC.. they are weak and wealthy.

[Anonymous]

mud@ginka.armageddon.org

I understand your frustration, and I've made a post like this before, but it is really sort of pointless, you'll be better off emailing the mud.

[Rhyden]

Erm, alright. I wasn't quite sure exactly what happened. Anyways, this is -way- too IC for the GDB anyways, so I won't ask any more questions.

Why doesn't name a character .. name .. place..  etc.. Mebby YOU know who the person behind the ID is.. but most don't and won't recongnize it (well I didn't)  cept for the person involved.

I know who the person behind the ID is? Sorry, I'm bedaffled beyond compare.

[HardCarbon]

Erm, alright. I wasn't quite sure exactly what happened. Anyways, this is -way- too IC for the GDB anyways, so I won't ask any more questions.

Why doesn't name a character .. name .. place..  etc.. Mebby YOU know who the person behind the ID is.. but most don't and won't recongnize it (well I didn't)  cept for the person involved.

I know who the person behind the ID is? Sorry, I'm bedaffled beyond compare.

Well if your complaining its too IC  .. or hmm did I not read that right?? IF so Sorry

[Cavus]

There were many posts about raiding. Yes, you're right there should be some emote, but there is no guarantee that the victim wouldn't run away without any emote.

Other than that, his action can have IC reason. For example, it is his territory, and he watched you while you are hunting and harming (drying up) his territory. He made a plan, then he jump through some foilages that he had hidden.

Think the real life. You are walking in the dark alleway, and there is a gang waiting for eating up whoever comes and get his money. Do you think they will show themselves from shadows, and ask you kindly your money? No, they will just attack you mindlessly.

Let's make it a little bit harsher. You suck up with someone, but you don't know that. He is at that alleway, and waiting for you. He wants to kill you. Would he give you a chance to run away, or defend yourself by showing himself from shadows and telling you that he will kill you? In the movies maybe, but in RL no.

Raiders just attack. They hide, and wait for their prey. If emote is important (definitely important), I would prefer first attacking, so he cannot run away, then I could describe how jump on to him with some quick emotes while fighting. Otherwise, that person can run away, and tomorrow you are at the newspapers of Zalanthas as a raider. And, headhunters are after you.

[jhunter]

Just want to add something:

Emote does not equal RP.

It is merely one of the tools we can use to flush out rp, but it does not mean that there was no RP behind actions just because others did not see them.

And as others have said, far too many people play the fleeing victim without emotes and then complain when they are killed without any.

[WarriorPoet]

Emote does not equal RP.

It is merely one of the tools we can use to flush out rp, but it does not mean that there was no RP behind actions just because others did not see them.

I think 'raiders' and PKers should take into account the fact that even if 'emote does not equal RP' that the person on the recieving end of a PK should enjoy his/her death. Granted, a death is usually nothing to dance around about, but in the end it should be more than a spamming screen of combat and then the mantis head. If you are roleplaying so hard using some invisible means, such as think, what's stopping you from throwing the occasional emote out to spice up an otherwise suckass scene? Come on people. That's the shittiest thing I've ever heard of.

The last time I was PK'd there wasn't a single emote from my opponent. Not one. After two different, extended bouts of fighting across the rinth, and numerous emotes on my part, I got NOTHING. Not a say, not a look, not a three word emote. I got: Nothing.

Now, I'll give the benefit of the doubt that this cat was using 'think' the entire time. Still, what fun was that for me? There was no life to the scene. Instead of a stunning death scene after an amazing running battle through the 'rinth, I got dick. Coded combat echoes, the mantis head and it's attending beep and not a smidgen of roleplaying from my opponent. The 'You might just flee;e;e;e;e' argument doesn't hold up here, at all. I busted my ass throwing out emotes for ten minutes while I fled and fought, getting nothing in return except the occasional look(without an emote tacked, btw) to gauge my health. Bullshit.

Is this right? Mind you, I don't mind dying in the slightest. I do, however, mind dying to some prat who smoked me for the hell of it, rather than roleplaying out a scene with me. It could  have been badass, but instead I got nothing.

I think there should be strict, savage punishments for PK with no RP to compliment it. We're here to roleplay, after all. I'll take my deaths and move on with a smile, but when I die, roleplaying as hard as I possibly can, I want a silver-handled, steel RP dagger to do it, not the invisible wooden stick of HackandShit.

You're a good guy, Yokunama. Stay strong. Don't let a few posers ruin the game for you.

[Bestatte]

I'd like to add something so any new folks reading this thread don't get too much of a negative opinion of the game and death within it.

I've had only thirteen characters, and only stored one of them. One was killed by an NPC due to sheer stupidity on my part. The rest were all murdered. And every one of those murders were roleplayed out by the killers. One of them, I saw little or no emotes, but it was -obvious- to me that some serious planning went into it. The others involved emotes, conversation, even torture in some.

And I have to say, every one of those roleplayed deaths were fan-fucking-tastic and I am SO glad to have experienced such awesome deaths.

So please don't get the impression that the Hack-n-Slash PK is common. I really don't believe it is. I just think there are a few folks who haven't learned to enjoy being the aggressor in a RPed manner, or are spooked by bad experiences from non-roleplaying spam-fleeing victims. I am truly convinced that these are the minority, and not something you would encounter regularly, if at all.

[Cavus]

I think there should be strict, savage punishments for PK with no RP to compliment it. We're here to roleplay, after all.

Man, what are you talking about? This MUD is PK free. And, death should be enjoyable for the victim, so raider should do some fighting emotes, and maybe talking, but nothing more. As, I said before if raider tries to emote, the victim does not emote and run away. If victim emotes, then raider does not. Finding both is hard, and no raider risks hiss life by taking things slow. First attack (with a reason), then some emotes. Victim still can flee, don't forget that.

[Akaramu]

How much VISIBLE rp you get totally depends on the situation. I think I have indirectly killed some people, but never did the dirty deed personally so far. When that happens, I'd absolutely love to give the player a great death scene. BUT... it depends who I am, and where.

If I am a templar and you are a rinth rat who got caught trying to steal from me, and you sit in a wonderful little jail cell, expect a wonderful long death scene.

If I am a noble and you, my aide, got caught spying for my archenemy - expect a great death scene after I call you into my office.

If I am an assassin who needs to protect an everyday life identity - expect to die before you realize whats going on. If you saw it coming, I did something wrong.

[WarriorPoet]

How much VISIBLE rp you get totally depends on the situation.

*snip*

If I am an assassin who needs to protect an everyday life identity - expect to die before you realize whats going on. If you saw it coming, I did something wrong.

That's fair and I'll agree 100%. An assassin planting a dagger in your ribs from the shadows is different from someone jumping you and then sitting there for thirty rounds of combat. What I find unacceptable is fighting around with someone for ten minutes and getting nothing. As Bestatte said above, this is by no means the norm, but it does happen.

My own case was probably extreme, but I've heard arguments for this kind of behavior, and I can't understand it. I would have been happy with one fucking emote. One curl of the lips, one muttered curse, one disdainful laugh, but no. My character, who was furiously alive, died to an emotionless, sword-swinging vegetable.

Cavus: So lack of emoting from both parties is fine because that's the norm? Sure, a victim could flee, but that's just perpetuating the circle, eh?

[Cavus]

Cavus: So lack of emoting from both parties is fine because that's the norm? Sure, a victim could flee, but that's just perpetuating the circle, eh?

My answer will be kind of yes. If raider comes and does emote or say something, victim would not stay (if victim is badass I am sure he will stay unless raider is an magicker) there just a sec for emote. And this is unjust for the raider.

If victim wants to emote, but raider attacks suddenly the victim would be frustrated from the situation. There is no solution to this problem.

Is this the case always? No, but it's matter of chance. If both sides prefer to emote at the same time,that raiding will be fun for both of them.

I had a friend, he chased a player for 14 room just because my friend tried to do emote, but the victim just ran. In the end, my friend stopped emoting and attacked to that victim at 14. room. He is good RPer, but victim did not want to emote.

So, I don't see a solution, but I hope you see one and suggest that to all playerbase. Giving punishments to PK just makes Zalanthas less harsh.

[WarriorPoet]

So what you're saying is, for the sake of tallying one more notch on your bone-buckled raider belt you're willing to forego the attending interaction aside from typing 'kill bill' or ' flee;e;e;e;e'?

Maybe I'm skewed here, but I could swear it is supposed to be the other way around: We're supposed to let the H&S aspects slide a bit in order to further the story that we are, collectively, trying to tell.

I'm not condemning playerkilling itself in any way, what I am condemning, loud and proud, is mindless PK with no attending RP. You may be willing to sacrifice the story for the sake of taking out a few victims, or to keep your fancy 13 day character alive a few more hours, I am not.

{EDITED to add that going back I caught a kind of whiny, condescending feel to this post. That's wasn't my intention at all, I swear it. It's all in the tone of voice, I guess. I'm an ass and my points are probably lacking. Someone needs to come along and shut me up }

[Cavus]

So what you're saying is, for the sake of tallying one more notch on your bone-buckled raider belt you're willing to forego the attending interaction aside from typing 'kill bill' or ' flee;e;e;e;e'?

Maybe I'm skewed here, but I could swear it is supposed to be the other way around: We're supposed to let the H&S aspects slide a bit in order to further the story that we are, collectively, trying to tell.

I'm not condemning playerkilling itself in any way, what I am condemning, loud and proud, is mindless PK with no attending RP. You may be willing to sacrifice the story for the sake of taking out a few victims, or to keep your fancy 13 day character alive a few more hours, I am not.

I am totally agree with you. But, what I don't have is a solution. I really like to see someone who comes up with a solution.

Otherwise, the raider (maybe over 10 days of Gameplay he has) will screw up, and he will be killed by head hunters. He had good amount of work on his char, so you don't want hiim to lose a char to this lack of emote thing, right?

Anyway, like I said, I am agree with you and all frustrated players. But, what is the -solution-?

[Yokunama]

Other than that, his action can have IC reason. For example, it is his territory, and he watched you while you are hunting and harming (drying up) his territory. He made a plan, then he jump through some foilages that he had hidden.

Think the real life. You are walking in the dark alleway, and there is a gang waiting for eating up whoever comes and get his money. Do you think they will show themselves from shadows, and ask you kindly your money? No, they will just attack you mindlessly.

Let's make it a little bit harsher. You suck up with someone, but you don't know that. He is at that alleway, and waiting for you. He wants to kill you. Would he give you a chance to run away, or defend yourself by showing himself from shadows and telling you that he will kill you? In the movies maybe, but in RL no.

To the green text:
That did not comply with the situation.

To the dark blue text:

You are making me laugh, Cavus.

In "real life" most theives and muggers do not -kill- their victims. In "real life" they go in, take whatever they can, and get out of there. In "real life" there are those cases where the victim is very aware they are getting stuck up, try to prevent it from happening, and end up with a few bruises or end up in critical condition. In "real life" there are those times where the theif will try to trick you out of your money or overprice you for something that is only worth a few stinky dollars. In "real life" there are those cases where some have been killed, but it is not something the majority of them do.

This person was not a theif or raider. They were more like a horriable, dishonest, and twinkish player. This said person was a bad roleplayer and even "checked" to see if I was AFK or LINKDEAD before attacking.

(From a source on the boards with a few of my words added)
Note: Its us newbies that are the ones who are going to try to help your playerbase if we stay. If this keeps up around us newbies we will gladly be looking forward to push Armageddon aside with all the other muds and move on to another mud.

[Cavus]

Yokunama, the discussion became more generalized, so my examples are not about your trouble exactly. And, I mean raider, not thief. In other words murderer  :twisted:

And in real life, if the one does not want to give his money, I would prefer kicking his ass hard and making him unconscious, so I can get everything. And I may kill to not being recognized later. (Though, it is opposite to my nature. I am making up a story, I am not bad person, you know   )

[Halaster]

I'm not condemning playerkilling itself in any way, what I am condemning, loud and proud, is mindless PK with no attending RP.

I would say that ANY mindless killing with no attending RP is lame, whether it's PC or NPC.

Treating PC's differently than NPC's is bad.  You should RP just as much around NPC's as you do PC's.  Trust me, it makes the game more fun for everyone, yourself included (plus, you never really know who's there watching).

[amoeba]

This person was not a theif or raider. They were more like a horriable, dishonest, and twinkish player. This said person was a bad roleplayer and even "checked" to see if I was AFK or LINKDEAD before attacking.

(From a source on the boards with a few of my words added)
Note: Its us newbies that are the ones who are going to try to help your playerbase if we stay. If this keeps up around us newbies we will gladly be looking forward to push Armageddon aside with all the other muds and move on to another mud.

Yokunama, chill, relax, you came out on top. I have been in a similar situation where someone atacked my sleeping chararcter.  (yes I had a good IC reason for sleeping) That person, if they survived got a very rude suprise when he suddenly awoke and attacked back.  I also got no response, but I certianly gave one.   I actually enjoyed the situation, got a lot of RP mileage out of it.  Remember this is a game, to call people "horriable"  and "dishonest" is probably pushing it a bit.  For all you know the player could have tried his first PK and fumbled it.  If you really think someone did something wrong, email the IMM's  They know the background.

To raiders: This is probably a good arguement for chaining commands.
emote Slowly approaches ~dude from behind, his wickedly cruel obsidan dagger of death held loosely in his twisted hands. ; kill dude
Gives an emote and gives no chance to spam run away.

[Yokunama]

Yokunama, chill, relax, you came out on top.

Erm,

Actually, I am not angry. It is just that each and everyone of my characters targeted and I yet to see any roleplay effort come out of those who tried to pk me.

Note: This is just an example drawn up from what actually happened.

Small Grove [NESW]
  A small stand of agafari trees, interspersed with blossoming pymlithe,
has taken root here.  The squat, gnarled hardwoods are foliated with long
and slender leaves, hardly greater than a finger's width, fanning out and
down in shaggy, drooping clusters, while the smaller pymlithe are topped
with sprays of rose and yellow blossoms, the colors a soft contrast against
the greyish leaves.
The copper-skinned woman is here.

The figure in a hooded cloak has arrived from the east.
A kank has arrived from the east.
The male in a white face wrap has arrived from the east.
A kank has arrived from the east.

(I was asking for help using the OOC command. Questions that would point out the fact that I was a newbie. This happened a while ago.)

The male in a white face wrap says to the copper-skinned woman,
"You are causing trouble, leave."
The male in a white face wrap says,
"Leave."
The male in a white face wrap says,
"Leave."
The male in a white face wrap says,
"Leave."
The male in a white face wrap says,
"Hey."

The figure in a hooded cloak draws an axe.
The figure in a hooded cloak draws an axe.

The male in a white face wrap draws a sword.
The male in a white face wrap draws a sword.

(combat rounds)
You fall of your kank!
(combat rounds)

You flee north.
The figure in a hooded cloak has arrived from the south.
A kank has arrived from the south
The male in a white face wrap has arrived from the south.
A kank has arrived from the south.
You breathe heavily.

You run north.
You shout, "Help!"
The figure in a hooded cloak has arrived from the south.
A kank has arrived from the south
The male in a white face wrap has arrived from the south.
A kank has arrived from the south.

You look around and attempt to hide behind a tree.

[Koala]

I am totally agree with you. But, what I don't have is a solution. I really like to see someone who comes up with a solution.

Here is your solution, just behave the way it has to be (using proper emotes and RP) and be an example to others without thinking -first- your opponent and your investment you already spent.

Just let it go, if you don't put yourself into danger before others do then you cannot expect it from them. They will keep it doing unproperly. If you think that you have the right to expect to see it, proper emotes and RP, from others before you do, then you are just trying to maximize your utility without considering the whole.

[derailment]

(I will go with famous prisoner dilemma example comparing one-period game and repeated game with endless rounds)

In one-period games the players are going to be aware of the above situation and will construct their strategies accordingly. Every player tries to maximize their utility with expectations they have. Here, people expect no future rounds and choose the best possible choice, which is just shirking not contributing. People think that if others are going to shirk then why contribute. Shirking will be the dominant strategy for every player and will result in having a loss at inidividual and total levels. This type of behaviour is an acceptable one if we were playing this game for one period but we are not. The duration of our game is undetermined and we will play it repeatedly. Because of this, you have to think future when you are playing your first rounds. Every round is going to affect your future rounds & outcomes. If one of the players in this game chooses to ignore to consider the repeated sequence and chooses to shirk then we -all- are going to suffer, including that player. To prevent this every player has to show a trust to others and keep contributing. In a repeated game like this contributing at every round (all players have to contribute) is the the choice with the highest outcome at both individual and total levels. As a conclusion, in a repeated with endless turn game we -all- should contribute with all costs and convince the others by all means for the sake of whole. Think long-run effects of your actions and try not to fall in love with possible good looking short-run gains. Give us a chance to reach an optimum where we -all- can have a better environment.  

[/derailment]

I always try to do this =>  Show respect to others and let them learn it from you, even if you are the only one showing it. Try to eliminate other's unproper behaviours* affecting your mindset.

In this case I believe in using proper emotes and RP with all costs, including the loss of my lovely and badass character.

* = Yes, I know this is relative to the person in question.