; - Stacking Commands

[WarriorPoet]

I've seen many posts condemning 'stacking' of commands, and the use of the ';' to do so. I've also seen many people do it, ingame. It just set me to wondering about a few things. There are of course the spam fleers and the like, but when is it not taboo to stack?

Is it just going 'raider enters. l raider   SHIT!    flee self, n; e; e; e; e; e; e; n; e' that is bad or is the stacking of any command frowned upon?

For example. I'll throw a ; in the mix if I'm sparring, with an: 'Emote sets up his beginning pose and then attacks; hit xxxxx' Just to combine them and let it come off more smoothly. I do this alot setting up kicks and other coded combat skills. It doesn't seem like it's hurting anyone, but like I said before, I've seen alot of random things frowned upon. Is this okay?

And then there is the stacked-walk. I've always felt a little dirty about it, but sometimes homelife acts up and I need to split from the computer and fast with no time to waste emoting all the way to the quitout. Or, I'll get called away as I'm walking somewhere, and rather than get up and simply leave my character standing in the road, I'll type out a few emotes and scatter them through the stacked walk, like ' e; emo hurries along the street, his eyes distant as he moves.;e;e; emot xxxxx; n; w;  emote...."

Bad?

[Marauder Moe]

You can stack what?  You can what commands?  You can what what?

Well I do know that spam-walking is pretty much always a bad idea.

[Moofassa]

Coming from a start in HandS muds, i've always been against stacking commands, since there isnt a way to stop them, you could get attacked and have to wait for all of your commands to go through./

But this point really applies to anything, since if you're walking along and you see a best friend/blue/redrobe/guard buddy/ naked girl being raped. You'll just walk on by. Kinda unrealistic. Im all for realism.. so i say.. in some circumstances bad... some... limited good.

Like you said with sparring, i see that as being fine, cuz it's not unrealistic, you're describing your action, and getting it done. I think im going to start doing that.

[Angela Christine]

I think heavy command stacking isn't cheating, it doesn't really give you a profound advantage over people who are actually paying attention and entering commands one at a time, instead it is simply annoying and a little foolish.  I find that entering more than 5 direction commands at a time is likely to lead to disaster; something WILL happen and you will be unable to react.  

-- I think stacking commands (or setting up a macro) to integrate commands and emotes is a-ok.  Some commands let you integrate emotes, others don't.  It can look mildly cheesy, but timing iregularities are a fact of life in MUDs.

-- Stacking a few direction commands to free up time for other things is potentially dangerous, but probably not cheating.  You may want to write a longish emote, so you stack a few command to give yourself time to write without standing there like a dofus -- if you want to emote while fleeing this is basically the only way to do it unless you are a speed typist.  Sometimes you are moving toward a goal, the travel itself is routine and dull, and you want to take your hands off the keyboard to eat something or pet the dog.  Not steller examples of excellence in Roleplaying, but not reprehensible either.

-- Stacking movement to avoid IC consequences is unquestionably bad.  For example, if you know that a thief has been hanging out on Caravan way, so you speedwalk all the way through the danger zone to ensure that a thief has no possible opportunity to type "steal coins you" and get through their skill delay before you have moved on.


-- For reasons I don't entirely understand, automated cliant speedwalking paths seem much worse to me than manually stacking commands.  It is more likely to cause problems, and it just feels slimy to me.  In the same way n; n; n; seems less acceptable than
>n
>n
>n
even though the effect is the same.


Angela Christine

[Delirium]

Until recently I didn't even know about command stacking. I discovered it by accident trying to use ; in a psi.

But lately I've taken to using it to do stuff like:

sit on the edge of an overturned crate;change ldesc sits on the edge of an overturned crate.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Rhyden]

I don't see anything wrong with command stacking. But use it at your own risk because it takes complete control away from your character. If anything, I mainly just use it in cities to get from location A to B if I'm in a hurry, nothing else, though.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Stacking is bad when you use the ability to stack to confuse others, perform actions at an unstopable rate of speed that will provide negative effects for someone else, or use it to preplot your path to a location.

Stacking is good for moments such as when you need to make a couple of long sentences and need to use a couple of Says at one time, for a single emote and a single action combined, and for moving things about and between containers and the floors and what have you.

[SanityAssassin]

I came from a RP MUD where command stacking was forbidden so it's all new to me.  I automatically assumed it was not allowed.  It's acceptable when moving things from container to container?   That definately makes things easier.

[Rindan]

I stack commands all of the time.  I wouldn't suggest doing it for movement and actions, but I tend to do it for RP and actions.  So, instead of emoting that I kick someone, then kicking them, I like to line everything up neatly first.  I type out my emote, then stack my kick at the end of it.  The two come out right after the other so that the other player knows that they are apart of the same thought.

I also some times stack says and emotes.  Some times you want to really describe what you are doing while you are saying something.  You can of course do this with say and tell commands as they are, but some times you want to be a little more detailed then what the buffer limits will let you do.

As he rolls up his sleeve revealing a purple kank tattoo, the ugly old mercenary says in Sirihish,
"Krath scorch my ass!  Look at this tattoo I got then tell me I ain't bad ass!"

The ugly mercenary's purple kank tattoo looks is crudely drawn and looks more then a little feminine with its long eyelashes and curvy thorax.

As for other commands, I personally wouldn't do it for your own health.  All commands that matter have delays built in.  You don't get anything by stacking them other then the inability to take back the command if you realize you made a mistake.  It isn't like the imms can catch you, for as far as they see you just typed the two commands in quickly.  It is really for your own benefit that you avoid doing it.  Better just to drop commands in one by one, especially when it comes to combat.

[Rhyden]

I stack commands all of the time.  I wouldn't suggest doing it for movement and actions, but I tend to do it for RP and actions.  So, instead of emoting that I kick someone, then kicking them, I like to line everything up neatly first.  I type out my emote, then stack my kick at the end of it.  The two come out right after the other so that the other player knows that they are apart of the same thought.

Same here.  :wink:

[Graydread]

Didn't know you could do this! Rindan's use of it for integrating speech, actions, and emotes seems like a great idea - more fluid, flexible, and immediate. I'll try it out tomorrow online. However, stacking movement commands, esp. flee seems a bit twinkish to me.... not sure..  :?  Sometimes RL does intrude and you have to get to a quit point fast (baby, wife, diarrhea...  the baby's, that is!) Hmm....

[jmordetsky]

The rule of thumb for me is to think whether or not the commands are actually part of the same action and if stacking them takes away an RP possibility.

So, e;e;e;e;e in the city...is bad.

get key backpack;unlock door;open door;w;close door;lock door;put key backpack - in my opinion would be okay....Who wants to type that every time they go in their apartment.

[Savak]

By and large, I get emotionally upset when I see players stacking commands.  The occasional 2 commands strung together is okay in certain circumstances, such as simulating a kick-emote, or screeching out an auctioneer speech over a couple of lines.  But most of the time it does nothing but take you, your character, anyone watching your character, and anyone trying to interact with your character (in a good way or a devious way), completely out of the loop until your stack of crap goes through.

Stacking for the sake of speed or convenience I personally don't find acceptable in most circumstances.  Stacking to smooth out interactive roleplay can be argued for in a limited sense.  The point is to play out the life of your character.. not dash past the most important moments in it.

-Savak

[Raesanos]

I never did this as a player because it takes the control away from me and makes it harder to react to things as they happen.  I really saw no advantage to it, and hell, sometimes its dangerous.

But, for the official record, there is no rule against it.  However, if you stack (or otherwise spam) commands in order to defeat realism, that is bad.  Use common sense.

[Incognito]

One of the most jarring examples of stacked commands (something I used to do when I started out on Arm as well), is using multiple commands, stacked together, to enter or leave locked places.

For example:
I could have an alias to stack the following commands:
open backpack
get key backpack
close backpack
unlock door
open door
s
close door
lock door
open backpack
put key backpack
close backpack

On the surface, this looks like a relatively harmless thing to do, it's going to save me typing 11 commands, if I just alias this stack in my mud client.

But please consider that since the mud clients queue and trigger commands faster than human typing, you might in essence be robbing some other players of a chance of stealing that key from you, or stealing some other item from your backpack while you had it open, or even following you into your home. That is not fair - plain and simple!

On the other hand, if you were alone in your clan's warehouse and used something like:
#20 {get hide 1.crate;put hide 2.crate}
I dont think anyone would really mind, you're not going to put any other player at a disadvantage by using stacked commands, in this case.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I quite often do em lets ~key drop into his hand and reachs for the door;get key bracer;unlock door up or dismount;em draws ~blade as he leaps down from ~Horse;draw metal.

These are jointed actions, things that should have happened at once. But you can't draw your weapon and dismount at the same time in armageddon. You can't do a slight of hand and look smooth in one action, so the faster you can get it out in one action, the more realistic it looks.

Obviously, w;cl door;lock door;run;w;w;w is abuse. However, stand;em drags ~shotgun from ~table as he rises;ep shotgun is not. It is one action.

[Trenidor]

Has anyone tried pressing and holding ctrl+enter
or shift+enter

I think 99% of programs that you type anything in will use either of those to start a new line without initiating yet.

[Rhyden]

Has anyone tried pressing and holding ctrl+enter
or shift+enter

I think 99% of programs that you type anything in will use either of those to start a new line without initiating yet.

Not my program.  :cry:

[jmordetsky]

One of the most jarring examples of stacked commands (something I used to do when I started out on Arm as well), is using multiple commands, stacked together, to enter or leave locked places.

For example:
I could have an alias to stack the following commands:
open backpack
get key backpack
close backpack
unlock door
open door
s
close door
lock door
open backpack
put key backpack
close backpack

On the surface, this looks like a relatively harmless thing to do, it's going to save me typing 11 commands, if I just alias this stack in my mud client.

But please consider that since the mud clients queue and trigger commands faster than human typing, you might in essence be robbing some other players of a chance of stealing that key from you, or stealing some other item from your backpack while you had it open, or even following you into your home. That is not fair - plain and simple!

On the other hand, if you were alone in your clan's warehouse and used something like:
#20 {get hide 1.crate;put hide 2.crate}
I dont think anyone would really mind, you're not going to put any other player at a disadvantage by using stacked commands, in this case.

Thats a valid point, I hadn't thought of it. It's a still a huge pain in the ass to type all those commands if you're just going in and out of your apartment.  If you're using Zmud you could augment it with the #wait command which puts a rest command between each one...

For example:

open backpack
#wait 5000
get key backpack
#wait 5000
close backpack
#wait 5000
unlock door
#wait 5000
open door
#wait 5000
s
#wait 5000
close door
#wait 5000
lock door
#wait 5000
open backpack
#wait 5000
put key backpack
#wait 5000
close backpack
#wait 5000

This would essentially put a 5 second delay between each command, letting you emote or cancel the script all together if something happens.

[Linedel]

Regarding scripting passing through doors -

Movement delay adds all the time they should need to decide if they want to follow.

Stealing keys from inventory or packs while someone is actively manipulating the item is so absurdly unrealistic that it isn't worth considering for a reason not to script the door passage.

[Jacques]

I'm going to chuckle just because it's been in everyone's example so far. If you have a keyring or similar device, you can't stack commands after "unlock" or "lock" - the delay of finding the key will cause future commands to do bad things.

For myself, I tend to stack commands for most of the "good" reasons described above. I like to link long says and/or emotes, and if I'm by myself and I've got 500 items to move into a new crate or the like, ABSOLUTELY I will use every advantage of my (paid and legally licenced!) client to take care of it in a manner that will require the absolute minimum of time and typing on my part. I don't generally stack in combat, because one typo can SO screw you over at that point. "disamr" instead of "disarm" that you don't notice until four commands later, well that's an ugly situation waiting to happen. Or worse still "stadn" followed by another action that you can't do because you didn't stand, but you've got the command delay anyway... OUCH. Just say no.

I will also mention that some clients (mine among them) will save your last command in the buffer so that instead of typing "eat food;eat food" you can simply type "eat food" and then hit return twice. While not technically stacking, the results are the same, so long as you're repeating the same action over and over.

[Xanous]

I am guilty of being a powerwalker.  I do it all the time, mostly because I'm lazy, and especially if I'm in one of those clans where their location is on the other side of town from the tavern my character goes it.  It just takes so long to get around sometimes, I get bored and automate it.

Like if I'm in the T'zai Byn in Allanak and it's dawn and I'm at the Gaj, I'll go

stand;say (grunting) Time to go;n (sauntering out);e;e;e;e;e;e;e;e;s;e;e;e;n;e
;e;e;e;e;e;e;e;n;n;n;n;n;n;e;e;n;n;n;n;n;n;n;n;e;open gate;e;e;n;w; n;w;enter
building;s;open backpack;get sparring pack;get sparring pack;wield sparring;
hold sparring; emote bares his teeth, ready for action.


Then I'll go get a coffee or something, and when I come back my character is where I want to be.[/quote]

[Trenidor]

Has anyone tried pressing and holding ctrl+enter
or shift+enter

I think 99% of programs that you type anything in will use either of those to start a new line without initiating yet.

Not my program.  :cry:

Haha, that sux...maybe you should get a new program.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I just wanted to say, I never thought of combining EMOTEs with my actions using ';'. It's a brilliant idea. Major thumb-upage to T7DV.

[flurry]

I don't really like it if it involves more than one coded action (emote and the corresponding action is different), if other players should have any chance to respond along the way.   (Or maybe two - I see 7DV point about one action flowing into another in some limited situations).    For instance (to stick with a previous example), if you open your pack, take out a key, unlock the door, open the door, walk in, close the door, lock the door, put the key away, close your pack in one single action, what if another PC shouted "Wait!  Don't go in there!" as you pulled out your key?  

That said, I've never run into a situation like that, where stacked commands ruined a scene or created some awkward roleplay.  

By the way - this is a client thing, right?

[Linedel]

For instance (to stick with a previous example), if you open your pack, take out a key, unlock the door, open the door, walk in, close the door, lock the door, put the key away, close your pack in one single action, what if another PC shouted "Wait! Don't go in there!" as you pulled out your key?

A more appropriate time for that shout would be after the player types "emote walks towards the northern doorway, reaching for ~pack with his right hand", and then waits a bit before setting off his door alias, since, most likely, if you're going to tell someone not to go in somewhere, you're going to say it before they're all the way up to the door.

Perhaps rather than a strict policy, it would be better to comment to players that aren't emoting their pre-actions, such as walking to the door, rather than disallowing aliases to re-simplify fairly simple actions that have a comparatively obtuse method of invocation.  Compare 7 commands to get into a door with 1 command to "buy bread", when, approximately, they're the same complexity in the real world.  (Actually I'd argue buying bread is more complex, since it abstracts a bunch of character interaction.)

Actually, one thing macroed that kind of annoys me is people eating in taverns... holy shit, can we not make the entire screen scroll just to munch on a bread?  (open pack;get coins pack;buy meat;put coins pack;close pack;eat meat;eat meat;eat meat)  To me, that's more immersion breaking than 90% of the things people claim are unrealistic.  (I tend to take the "unrealistic" path of keeping a food item or two in my inventory most of the time, and compress those lines into fewer with emotes, eating it over time, and none but the guy using peek is any wiser that I'm cheesing it slightly.)

[Vanth]

What if you have the example macros set up to unlock, open, go through, close, and lock the door...but there's an assassin/burglar waiting for you on the other side?  You wouldn't lock yourself in with them, would you?  :twisted:

[Rhyden]

What if you have the example macros set up to unlock, open, go through, close, and lock the door...but there's an assassin/burglar waiting for you on the other side?  You wouldn't lock yourself in with them, would you?  :twisted:

Like hell my character would'nt! Some skinny little assassin/burglar in -my- apartment!? I'd lock the door, grab my nearest weapon and have a little bit of a correctional chat with them, if you catch my drift.  :twisted:

[Angela Christine]

Getting out your key, unlocking and opening the door could be one action.  But to my mind going through the door, closing and relocking it would be a second action.  That is at least two actions, and there probably ought to be a pause in there somewhere.

[Linedel]

I'll go for that.  How about:

#alias predoor {emote quietly strolls towards the door, reaching for ~pack.}
#alias door1 {open pack;get key pack;unlock door;look north;emote glances through the doorway.}
#alias door2 {north;close door;put key pack;close pack}

The three above steps with proper user-driven pauses between them seems reasonable, and should address most of the typing reduction arguments.  The length of pause between door1 and door2 should primarily be driven by your character's IC paranoia factor.  I rarely look cautiously through my (real world) apartment door when carrying a pile of groceries, but I don't live in Zalanthas, and the odds of a mugger being in my apartment on any given day are thus less than 50%.

The pre-door step is a good spot to insert any "scan" or "look east;look west;look south" type actions you wish to do.  Modify the emote to represent taking those actions, if you choose to do them.  The predoor thing should probably be typed custom any time you have visitors, the alias should mostly be used when you think you're alone, just in case of hiding/invis people.

The direction, pack, and key keywords should be variables if your client supports it, for ease of going both ways and moving your key to a different pack on the fly.

Add un-necessary stuff like "hold key" as your OOC paranoia of poorly roleplayed thieves warrants.  "Hold key" has no IC consequence as there is no point the key leaves your hand even if you don't type that.  (Went through a whole discussion with someone trying to convince me why, IC, typing "hold key" would "prevent theft.")

[Delirium]

Aliasing emotes would make me feel dirty.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Someone noted the irritation in someone eating in taverns, the scroll involved. This is a prime time for me to point out that nesting commands would, once more, make your screen more beatiful.