Apartments and ME!! It's ALL about me!

[JoyRide]

Anyways, since somebody started the idea and the staff seems interested in going with it, this thread is meant to be purely set on apartments and Nenyuk. So don't go flaming people for their ideas - lay them out in an orderly fashion and support/refute them but don't flame people. If you have something negative to say, go visit your neighbor. If you have something constructive to say, please post.

My personal opinion of Nenyuki Housing is that there are enough of them. From what I've seen, there seems to be too much at times at that and I rather hope the Nenyuki agents are adjusting prices to meet supply/demand. Other than that, I'd like to have a locker storage facility put up myself, I listed it in another thread once about a single room with dozens of coded lockers that have locks and keys for. A guard would be there to watch over them and if you didn't have a key, he'd throw you out basically unless you were with somebody who did. This would cut down on character costs to rent when some of them only want storage space. But it doesn't really deal with the issues of housing, it was an idea which came and went. It does however make it all neat with one room and numerous items rather than a lot of new rooms/buildings to be made for it but as I said - limited use.

[wizturbo]

I love the automatic apartment system.  I'd love to see it activated in every city.

The real classy apartments however i think should be what Nenyuk PC's deal in.

[xX_Cathedral_Xx]

I love the automatic apartment system.  I'd love to see it activated in every city.

The real classy apartments however i think should be what Nenyuk PC's deal in.

I completely agree with Wizturbo on this although I wish that when using the automatic apartment system that you might have the chance of getting an apartment that has two rooms or one. Costs would vary of course, but its an idea.

[Delirium]

I love the automatic apartment system.  I'd love to see it activated in every city.

The real classy apartments however i think should be what Nenyuk PC's deal in.

[Bestatte]

There used to be more non-automated apartments in Allanak. It looks like a bunch have been removed or unlinked. I'd rather see more of those, and a more active Nenyuk PC, than more automated apartments.

I honestly have no idea why the Nenyuk PCs are always so sparse - I played one and never had trouble finding things to keep me busy on a regular basis.

I'd just like to see a more active Nenyuk presence than anything else, with the return of the apartments that used to be available.

[proxie]

My pc's have often muttered about laying pit traps for the Nenyuk to try and find one, with a trail of coin leading up to it.

I love the apartment system, just want to see more of it and the Nenyuks that offer them.  

*starts laying out a trail of coin in fact, from the bank to a prepared pit trap*

wish all: Could someone please help me here, I'm digging a pit in the middle of Tuluk/Nak and need to catch myself some Nenyuk.

Renting apartments in Luirs or Storm might be pretty spiffy too, though those may not necessarily fall under Nenyuk's territory... Eastern Storm too... Might encourage more isolated conglomeration of people.

Rent apartment.
Sorry, we're all full up currently.
Rent apartment.
You're handed a red stone key and directed to go to the third floor.

Obviously, the three and four room places or larger would be handled by a PC, but a one room closet in a boarding house could be done automatically.

*takes two sid from the trail and tosses it into the pot*
Proxie

[Anonymous]

I think automated apartments are fine enough, so long as they are simple ones.  Let Nenyuki PCs control the really nice ones.

[Moofassa]

Nyeh, im not sure why, but i really dont think i would like an automatic housing system. Sure, it solves alot of problems, but the big big error for me is the realism of it. If i walked into a nenyuki bank or wherever, and typed, rent home

They take 1000 sid from your pocket and give you a key and point you to.. bla bla bla

This just screams twinky at me, it would jar me out of the game. I like to get immersed in the world. And with uber-twink commands like this i feel i would be drawn out of it.

And about Nenyuki pc's i've usually seen the one up north, about once a day, he's always around for nice interaction, sales and opportunity to talk about apartments. I just dont see the need for a coded rental system.


edited to add: So basically for me it's just a question. Is it better to have an OOC convieniance, or is it better to stay completely in game and find a PC? Which in my mind is alot more enjoyable than typing one command.

OOC convieniance in my mind, does not equal the loss i'll have towards the realism.

[Cuusardo]

I personally like automated apartment rental.  I also like the idea of the high class, really expensive places being left to be rented the old fashioned way, by Nenyuk PCs.

I also don't think that we need more coded apartments.  Fewer apartments to rent should reflect the state of the economy.  (And I think it's crazy that so many PCs can afford or feel the need to have apartments.  If your employer provides you with room and board, you don't really need to rent an apartment too.)

[Lazloth]

I love the automatic apartment system.  I'd love to see it activated in every city.

The real classy apartments however i think should be what Nenyuk PC's deal in.

[Trenidor]

I took option #2 but I have a few conditions I'd like to go over:

1. It has options for day and a half rental, week rental, two week rental (for 1 rl day) month rental, and year rental.
2. The highest class rooms are reserved for only people who RP with Nenyuki PCs
3. There are still different class housing, but the majority of the class is way low class.
4. They do a background check on you depending on how many prision trips you've made. (1 trip and you can only rent up to upper lowerclass rooms unless it's been around a year or two since the imprisonment) (and if you've have say 5 trips in the past month then no rentals for you)
5. They charge over the room amount and when you give your key back you get the extra money back.
6. They have different sayings everytime you rent a room.
7. If you're in the room past your limit, you'll get a nasty broadshouldered guy come in, subdue you, then throw you out into the street and you get a little message and your background check goes up a notch because you tried to stay over your welcome. And they keep the extra money.
8. You get some appartment doorman that reminds you an hour before your time in the room is up via the way.
9. Some of the day and a half rentals (through one day and up untill dawn the next day) have weird nosies comeing from other rooms that would keep anyone up all night.
10. Some of the rooms leak noises through the walls of what people are saying: [someone says in the room to the north: "I'll kill her tomorrow."]
11. Rooms are added to some of the bars and taverns that are only day and a half to week rentals.
12. More PCs get hired on as the various types of people required to keep one of those runnning.

There...That should cover a lot of your RP experences with renting a hotel or appartment as well as helping the "I want to play a PC that helps run the tavern" that came up a while back and no one saw results for it.

[Maybe42or54]

4. They do a background check on you depending on how many prision trips you've made. (1 trip and you can only rent up to upper lowerclass rooms unless it's been around a year or two since the imprisonment) (and if you've have say 5 trips in the past month then no rentals for you)

7. If you're in the room past your limit, you'll get a nasty broadshouldered guy come in, subdue you, then throw you out into the street and you get a little message and your background check goes up a notch because you tried to stay over your welcome. And they keep the extra money.

I have a couple problems with those.
They just don't sound realistic to me.

7. If they keep the money, you keep the key.

[Ghost]

I love the automatic apartment system.  I'd love to see it activated in every city.

The real classy apartments however i think should be what Nenyuk PC's deal in.

[Trenidor]

4. They do a background check on you depending on how many prision trips you've made. (1 trip and you can only rent up to upper lowerclass rooms unless it's been around a year or two since the imprisonment) (and if you've have say 5 trips in the past month then no rentals for you)

7. If you're in the room past your limit, you'll get a nasty broadshouldered guy come in, subdue you, then throw you out into the street and you get a little message and your background check goes up a notch because you tried to stay over your welcome. And they keep the extra money.

I have a couple problems with those.
They just don't sound realistic to me.

7. If they keep the money, you keep the key.

Ok then...how about they change the lock and you're left with a useless key and an empty wallet.


The money is like IRL, to make sure you don't destroy things while you're in the rented appartment. If you do they keep the money so they can fix things, if not then they give you your money back.

One might even consider upping their background check at a renting place because they left the place nice instead of punching a hole in the wall.

And as for that little background check...if it's a local tavern, that's never heard about you before then they'd only have to go by what you did last time you stayed in the tavern. Nenyuke on the other hand, would know what you did pretty much all over the place, (and if nessicary take money from your bank account  :twisted: lol) and if they found out you were part of a mass bank robbery...no rooms for you ever but rather a knife in the back.

[Marauder Moe]

Well if there's a script to have some guy throw you out of the apartment they could just as easily have him search for the key and confiscate it.  There are several other examples of scripts that have NPCs search for (and sometimes take) items from players.  Also if you're inside the apartment then you'll have to have had the key on your person.

[HardCarbon]

I'd Definately  like to  see at least SOME automated apartments I've been trying for over 3 RL weeks to find an agent to rent me an apartment.

[Rhyden]

Ya, I think automated apartments would be good, but more would have to be made if this was so.

For the idea with the lockers in a room with keys and a guard: I think it's sort of tacky and relies more to the code than realism of the Zalanthian world. It's not like in cities they'd have a locker room. How would this make business? Selling keys? Selling locker-time? I just don't think it's neccessary and unrealistic. That's what the Nenyuki deposits are for and also backpacks.  :wink:

[halfhuman]

I think a good way to solve these problems would be if Nenyuk HAD A DAMN RENTAL OFFICE!!!  You're talking about how getting an apartment automatically would be twinkish and to non RP.  What I think is non RP is that Nenyuk rents out apartments they should at least have an office to do it from.  If you want to find a house IRL, you go to a real-estate office.  You don't wait around a bar for a real-estate agent to stop in for a beer after work.

You say auto rental is twinkish and OOC.  What kind of business doesn't have  a front, an office or something?  Even drug dealers IRL have better ways for buyers to contact them than walking around randomly and asking "Hey man, do you sell cocain? Cause I really want some cocain.  No, you don't?  Well, do you know anybody who *does* sell cocain, or know where I could talk to someone to get some cocain? Well, that's okay.  I'll just go over to that other guy sitting at the bar and ask him if he has some cocain."

[Rindan]

I personally would be more then happy to simply have an inn room.  You could rent it at a fairly stiff price for a day or two, or at gradually reducing rates per day for longer periods of time.  I see a fair number of people that would find such rooms useful.  The most obvious groups would be traveling folks and single professionals.

For the traveling folk, an inn room makes obvious sense.  Come into Allanak, throw down a few 'sid for an inn room for a week, a month, or however long you want to stay there.  I doubt your average independent merchant wants to come in from wherever and have to sleep in the Gaj's dorm.  Even a lone wolf hunter just in for a week might want an inn room over sleeping on the floor for simple reasons of feeling insecure in a city.

For single professionals making an above average amount of money, an inn room also makes sense.  I imagine that in a city like Allanak, you need to defend your house some way or else you will get robbed.  There are two ways to defend a home when locks are worthless.  Either you pay someone to guard the home, or you have friends and family do it.  Your average Joe mercenary might not have anyone to look after his home while he is away, but also lack the money to hire his own personal guard to watch it.  A happy solution would be to rent out an inn room for a month or year.  You get a small space to live in and have people over too, a lock, and probably the services of a guard or two who keeps an eye on the rooms.  It is more expensive then renting out a home and letting family take care of it, but cheaper then renting a place paying a guard to watch it.  

I imagine a fair number of people fall into this category of being slightly more wealthy then your average Joe, but not wealthy enough to maintain a guard at home.  Bards, classy whores, merchants, well to do mercenaries, and maybe even some House folks who want a private space away from their compounds.  These people might rent out a room for a year.  Just make everyone pay in advance.  If they die?  Eh, oh well.  They have already paid.  

If nothing else, I imagine it would cut down on the sex on the Bard's Barrel balcony.  It is something I wouldn't feel bad about automating either.  That said, if the staff wanted to make an awesome special application role, I can think of none cooler then barkeeper/innkeeper to manage such things.

[jhunter]

I really dig Rindan's idea.

[Rhyden]

Rindan, of course this would be useful, helpful, even beneficial to all but you have to ask yourself this:

Is this room-locker-thing realistic? Have you ever heard of a storage room in middle-age history? (I say this because it is our closest similar age to Armageddon) Would the idea fit with all the taverns, stores, huts, tents, stalls that we have in Zalanthas? To me, this sounds like something of the future, like out of Star Trek or Star Wars, definitely not around the middle ages or our fantastic (of fantasy genre) world of Zalanthas.

I think this should be something dealth ICly, probably with Nenyuk if they wanted to start such a thing. I just want to say I'm opposed, seems too cheesy for me.

[Rindan]

Rindan, of course this would be useful, helpful, even beneficial to all but you have to ask yourself this:

Is this room-locker-thing realistic? Have you ever heard of a storage room in middle-age history? (I say this because it is our closest similar age to Armageddon) Would the idea fit with all the taverns, stores, huts, tents, stalls that we have in Zalanthas? To me, this sounds like something of the future, like out of Star Trek or Star Wars, definitely not around the middle ages or our fantastic (of fantasy genre) world of Zalanthas.

I think this should be something dealth ICly, probably with Nenyuk if they wanted to start such a thing. I just want to say I'm opposed, seems too cheesy for me.

I never said "room-locker-thing".  I said inn room.  Inn rooms are pretty common throughout all periods of history.  In fact, the idea of renting a small inn room for an extend period is something I know they practiced in feudal Japan, and something I wouldn't be surprised to find happened elsewhere in the world too.

Make it a small room that can't hold more then a few people.  Maybe snatch on a fancy script that causes guards to come running if they hear people fighting (or sparring).  Make its item limit just enough to keep a spare set of armor or for a crafter to keep the tools of his trade.  The room is less then perfect in terms of security as a pick pocket can relieve you of your key.  Maybe even throw in a pick pocket like system for lock pickers so that a lock picker has a chance of breaking into a room without being detected by a patrolling guards or passing VNPCs.  

I personally think that the tavern bard or traveling merchant retreating to their inn room for the night, wounded people going to their inn room instead of sleeping in the drovian temple, or having people not carrying around backpacks all of the time would help improve the atmosphere, not detract from it.

[Rhyden]

OHHH!! -Inn Room-. Sorry, Rindan. My reading isn't so swell tonight. I'm with you on this one. Inn rooms would be absolutely amazing to have! Only problem I see is lots of coding and work for the imms here.

[HardCarbon]

Yep.. get rid of the auto merchants...   food.. water.. weapons gear...OH those are ok... why not housing.. as a note the good stuff in those categories  is still sold by hand..

[Delirium]

Love Rindan's idea.

Rent room <number> <days/months/years>. Pay it all up-front.

So, rent room 3 days, or rent room 2 months, or rent room 3 years.  Whatever.

If the person croaks, the room frees itself up after 2 RL days.

[Bestatte]

If these rooms were all located in public places with soldiers and/or guards wandering around 24/7, how exactly would a burglar learn to pick a lock?

I think the implications of having rooms -that- highly protected would render the lockpicking skill relatively useless. Remember you can't pick open the good stuff til you learn to pick open the crap. If the crap is accessable only through renting from an innkeeper, that lockpicker will never learn to pick. Except maybe his nose.

[Graydread]

Love Rindan's idea. Surely a city like Allanak, with a thriving economy based on trade, and therefore a large number of visitors, would have rooms available at both the Gaj and the Bard. (If not the Traders as well - perhaps a very small number of exclusive rooms there.) IMHO the Gaj wouldn't have much in terms of security, while the Bard might be considerably better, but also more expensive (you gets what you pays for!).

Oh, and the opportunity to PC an inkeep or bartender.... brilliant! Special Ap it, and you could have RP'd competition between Inns: competing menus and prices, entertainment, rooms, plots, supplies, jobs, etc. etc. etc. It would add a whole new layer of colour and drama to Zalanthats.  

Make this my Christmas wish!

[Rhyden]

Rindan's suggestion is awesome.

As for the lockpicking? That may be a problem for some of our class/subguild skill-options, but realistically, it's the job of the guards to reduce chances for no-good thieves and burglars to gain illegal entry. Then again, with this ideal apartment-business, who knows? Perhaps a lock-picking guild could be created within one of the apartments? Perhaps outside of. Whatever the means, I'm sure the common filth of both cities will manage to steal whatever they desire, apartment idea or not.

[Nenyuki Agent]

I really like the idea of keeping Agents solely for upscale apartments/houses. Lemme tell you, renting the hovels is a pain in the ass. Not only do you have to find someone seedy enough to wanna rent it but then you have to maintain contact with that person in order to collect your rent, you must clean out the place after they croak which leads to all kinds of potentially lethal findings, squatters or occurences and etc etc etc.

This isn't a new idea, Nenyuk is ever changing and I hope for the sake of my character that it won't evolve to the point of PC extintion.

Patience, my little kiddies, good places to live come to all those who wait.

[HardCarbon]

I really like the idea of keeping Agents solely for upscale apartments/houses. Lemme tell you, renting the hovels is a pain in the ass. Not only do you have to find someone seedy enough to wanna rent it but then you have to maintain contact with that person in order to collect your rent, you must clean out the place after they croak which leads to all kinds of potentially lethal findings, squatters or occurences and etc etc etc.

This isn't a new idea, Nenyuk is ever changing and I hope for the sake of my character that it won't evolve to the point of PC extintion.

Patience, my little kiddies, good places to live come to all those who wait.

 If we survive long enough!!!  :lol:        FINALLY have a place to call home.. WHEEEEE

[Raesanos]

This just screams twinky at me, it would jar me out of the game. I like to get immersed in the world. And with uber-twink commands like this i feel i would be drawn out of it.

Can you please explain why this is twinky?  Twinky means abusing code, metagaming, or powergaming.  How is interacting with a scripted NPC any of those things?

You get some appartment doorman that reminds you an hour before your time in the room is up via the way.

The current code does have reminders for when your time is running out, its just handled differently.

They have different sayings everytime you rent a room

Do you mean, just random circulation through sayings like "Thanks, enjoy" and "Thank you, have fun" and "Okay, enjoy your room" etc.?

A lot of things that were said

You guys remember that you can rent the back rooms of most taverns, right?  That doesn't seem to help keep the lovebirds off the balcony, so to speak.  I think that using this script to replace that functionality would be pretty silly, though we have considered semi-permanent inn rooms and are not sure if we're going to go down that road.  Without getting into the details, it certainly has both advantages and disadvantages.

[Moofassa]

Well, to be pure, it's not twinkish. I just like to see as many things done as possible, through PC's. I liked the idea of PC innkeeps and bartenders, so much fun good be had.

Not twinkish, Rae, just... jarring.. and another command that takes me out of my character, and into a bunch of number entering OOC code.

[Rhyden]

Moofassa, let's start our own tavern.

[Rindan]

If these rooms were all located in public places with soldiers and/or guards wandering around 24/7, how exactly would a burglar learn to pick a lock?

I think the implications of having rooms -that- highly protected would render the lock picking skill relatively useless. Remember you can't pick open the good stuff til you learn to pick open the crap. If the crap is accessible only through renting from an innkeeper, that lock picker will never learn to pick. Except maybe his nose.

I doesn't have to be highly protected, just protected enough so that one thief can't go and open up every single door in an hour and clean out a building.  With a little scripting I think you could make the whole lock picking ordeal fair for all parties involved.  

Set it up like this:  You have a hallway a few rooms long of inn rooms.  Patrolling this hallway is a guard.  If at any point you are picking a doorway and the guard can see you, you are caught and he promptly calls for help and cuts you down.  Now, this would be easy enough for a lock picker to circumvent by liberal use of the watch and look commands, so just drop the light level in the hallway such that you can't see into the next 'room' of the hallway.  If it is a dark and seedy inn that you might expect in a place like the Gaj, it isn't all that hard to believe that there might be no windows and that torches are used only sparingly.  If you are a smart lock picker, you will get a friend and have him keep watch while you work.

To increase the difficulty a little more, make it so that all rooms that are not occupied by PCs have NPC tenets in them that will holler and alert if you pick into their room.  So, if you just go randomly pick into an inn room, you stand a fair chance of getting caught by an NPC resident.  If on the other hand you have a mark and somehow find out what room he is staying in and get a friend to keep watch, you stand a much better chance of getting away with something.

I am not saying that this is THE solution, but just pointing out that there are solutions.  The biggest problem is that the more elaborate the solution, the pain some coder has to go through to execute it.  Personally, I think any sort of inn system would be better then nothing.  There are other locks in the game that don't require breaking into a house or an inn room, and as it stands it isn't like there is a particularly thriving home theft industry.  

Most home owners in the game either realize that their property is utterly defenseless and so leave nothing of value in them, or they are rich enough to buy a house with some defenses.  The only people who are going to gain anything from inn rooms are going to be people with defenseless property with nothing of value in them.  If those people get a place to sleep and store a spare set of clothing in, I don't think it is going to hurt burglars any.  Hell, if chests with locks were more predominate, it might actually help them.  There are plenty of ways into an inn room that doesn't involve a pair of lock picks, but all of those ways are useless if the loot is sitting in a locked chest.

Whatever the case, even if impenetrable or completely inn rooms were implemented, I think it would be a net improvement even if it caused some harm to a single class.  Fewer homeless hobos and less sex on the Barrel's Balcony are all good things in my opinion.

[Rhyden]

Well, to be pure, it's not twinkish. I just like to see as many things done as possible, through PC's. I liked the idea of PC innkeeps and bartenders, so much fun good be had.

Not twinkish, Rae, just... jarring.. and another command that takes me out of my character, and into a bunch of number entering OOC code.

I think there needs to be a tavern a lot like 'Cheers'. Whenever you walk in, everybody knows your name.  :wink:

[Another Nenyuk]

I think there needs to be a tavern a lot like 'Cheers'. Whenever you walk in, everybody knows your name.  :wink:

Nah... people would complain that it's twinkish.  :twisted:

OK, an opinion from another of the Nenyuk PCs - my PC is in Tuluk, for anyone who cares, but I've also looked over the situation (IC and OOC) in Allanak as well. I'm in favor of the majority of the routine slums being handled by an automated script, once the bugs are worked out. Why? Because there's only so much any of us can do, and we're WAY outnumbered. Particularly in Allanak, where there are a TON of apartments (last time I was in 'Nak, most of them were still there - just not used) that rent for very small amounts of money. This will free up the fairly small Nenyuk PC population (it's a VERY difficult role, despite how rewarding it is - we go through a LOT of agents) to concentrate on the more upscale buildings, as well as actually get some RP plots of our own going.

The biggest problems I see with this are some very considerable difficulties implementing it (many of which have been addressed already in the existing scripts), and the high possibility of twinkery. For now, I am watching carefully and waiting to see how things play out. And renting apartments to a whole lot of you. Thank you all for making me filthy rich.  

[Raesanos]

As the developer of the apartment script, I hope no one minds that I jump in to solicit feedback constantly.

The biggest problems I see with this are some very considerable difficulties implementing it (many of which have been addressed already in the existing scripts),

All issues that were on my to-do list have been dealt with.  If you see any remaining issues that I might not be aware of, drop me an email.

and the high possibility of twinkery.

What do you see as the biggest area for risk of twinkery here?  I haven't seen much abuse (only a few things loosely related to the script) and would like to know of it if I'm just in the dark.