Score

[Dracul]

Not to argue. But I'll log my opinion.

I dont want any more rerolls. I dont want any extra 'decision' allowed for it either.

[Rhyden]

Just another thought and I know most people don't want change but this is simply an idea, agree or disagree, no flamming:

Scratch my first idea. How about you get your normal roll and possible reroll -and- with those four levels, you have the ability to decide which goes where. Now, most here will say this is powegaming and making uber characters. Well, it's not. Here's three examples to lead my point:

1) For a warrior: I for one may make the strength good. Why? Because they're a warrior for jeepers sake, they have to be strong! Fighting is what they do best!

2) For a thief: I'm probably gonna make agility and wisdom higher than str. and end. Why, you may ask? Because they're a thief!!! They need to be quick with their hands and cunning in order to be what they are! Jeeze!

3) For a merchant: My highest will be put to wisdom. Why, you might be pondering...because...he...is...a...merchant. He's gonna be smart. If this merchant wasn't smart in the head, s/he'd find another occupation!

There's more examples, I'm sure. But this wouldn't be twinkish, it wouldn't create uber characters, it would make score more accurate to the character's lifestyle.

There, now,
start the disagreement...

[Marauder Moe]

I disagree with any proposed changes to stat determinations.  My reasons have probably been mentioned already.  Short and sweet, eh?   :wink:

[Anonymous]

You're wasting your breath, Rhyden.. There's a majority of players on the GDB, who, for some reasons, won't accept any changes or ideas about changes, especially when it comes to stats and ordering them properly for your chosen concept.

Just search for "My favorite characters had the poorest stats ever" and you'll see what I mean  :?

Never understood where that "Nothing must change, everything most be as brutal as possible" mentality comes from, but hey, such is life here.

Who here will have the courage to step forth and admit that he/she killed a character on purpose with no remorse because they absolutly didn't like their stats? *g* I bet there's a whole bunch of players who do it all the time.

Stats matter for me, sue me.. Especially when I play a character that relies on it, like a warrior.

[Maybe42or54]

That sound like Sjanimal to you?
No. Any more rerolls and you have that much better chance at rolling the stats you like.
Of course. Hell. What am I talking about? I'm probably the luckiest bastard known to this GDB.
I've only had two pcs with stats worse than very good.

[Rhyden]

Yes, this does sound like sjanimal and 42or54, you obviously haven't had a warrior who's strength was poor and agi below average.

Am I complaining? No. This warrior just had the idea he was a warrior in his head when secretly everybody knew he was a weakling.

I know the scoring system is good the way it is, but I think it could be better, I just can't put my finger on it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, to chime in on something, I would not mind being able to have a total number rolled and then alot them among my stats, or even a set of six 'stat messages' (IE: Random numbers rolled which, based on their catagory, give you the messages - poor, below average, very good, etc) being given so that we could allot them among our four stats.

It's not power-gaming, it is creating a character. I get sick of hearing that particular excuse.

We will probably never see something like this, but that's alright. We can still wish for the options, those of us who want to create our characters from the DNA up.

[Rhyden]

Bravo, The7DeadlyVenomz! Somebody sees my point.  

It really isn't powergaming. We decide absolutely -everything- about our characters before playing them out: Race, gender, proffession, past, looks, living locations, everything! Why not have at least the smallest bit of decision over their attributes? It only makes sense.

This would not be powergaming. It would be as close to powergaming as chosing the eye color of your character.

I honestly don't even see how this system would be abused. The ability points would be as random as scores already are. If somebody makes their strength absolutely amazing, fine! The rest of their score will be crap and they'll have to rely on pure brute for everything. Also, if somebody intentionally makes their wisdom amazing because they are a merchant, so be it, look to my last post.

Would the general playerbases' characters benefit if this was in use? Would/could it be abused?

[jhunter]

It is powergaming because there are racial statistical adjustments involved. With any sort of stat ordering or prioritizing whatsoever it allows people to order the stats to minimize intended racial drawbacks.
It's one thing if you happen to get lucky and this happens...another if people are allowed to do this at will.

[Maybe42or54]

My best stat will go to Wisdom.
My second to strength.
My third to Agility.
My fourth to Endruance.

Why?
Because I will be badass.
If I have AI wisdom, that I picked, and poor the rest of them, I'mma be destroying you.
Whereas I should have had the AI on endurance, and be craptacular.

Most people will arrange their stats this way, most of the time, would be my guess.

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

I guess it's not much fun when your warrior with poor str and agili get beaten up by a merchant or something.

I can't say I ever suicided my pc coz he had lousy stats, most of them die out pretty fast themselves without me helping them do so..

I wouldn't mind certain alterations on the reroll thing [like 1 more?], but if it is realistic and can be more easily accesible through -wish all-, I suppose it doesn't matter that much.

The rolls don't seem to be totally random, and unaffected by race and guild/ subguild and age/height/weight.

I don't find the options here that appealing, but I agree that maybe there should be a slight alteration for realism, though being realistic, there are crappy warriors as well, just that well, it spoils player concepts.

[Cavus]

Hey guys. I thought a slight modification. I want to get your opinions.

Let's keep the current systems, but add a tiny option to it. This code is for new creation of the char. For example:

>score

>............................
 ............................
  your strength is average, your agility is average,
  your wisdom is average, your endurance is average

Now Fancy Pants Joe did not like this and:

>reroll self

> your new stats are
   your strength is poor, your agility is poor,
   your wisdom is poor, your endurance is poor

Now Fancy Pants Joe shocked even more, and changed his mind..

>Do you want to keep your new stats? (Yes/No)

> No

> Your stats are,
   your strength is average, your agility is average,
  your wisdom is average, your endurance is average


In this method people have two options for their stats, and can choose the one they like. It does not give any control on stats, so no powergaming or stats. It simply gives a choice to player turn back to original. I am sure everybody can be happy with this.

I know there should be people with lower stats, but this method only makes them little happier. It does not harm the harshness of Zalanthas world.

What do you think guys? (Ah, and ladies  :wink: )  :?:

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

My best stat will go to Wisdom.
My second to strength.
My third to Agility.
My fourth to Endruance.

....

Most people will arrange their stats this way, most of the time, would be my guess.

Based on your character concept, or based on your knowledge of how to twink the code? You see, that's the thing of it. Assuming that we are all role-players here, then why in the hell would you pull something twinky like that, you who report bugs or don't get that item or armor because it does not fit you character, you who do not spam e;e;e;e;e;ew;n;e;s;?

It's no more twinkable than anything already is on Armageddon, and assuming that you are a RPer rather than a twink, then why should it be abused?

I really think that the brunt of most folks' arguments against this change to the chargen lies in their inability to accept something new. But as for me and my family, we'd like to make our peoples quick as snakes and dumb as Southerners, or strong as Northern Barbarians and slow as Southerners, or.....


I'll also support Cavus' idea, assuming that what I want will never get put in. It would be good to have a least that mediocre amount of choise in the matter.

[Anonymous]

Oh enough already.. I play on two other RPI muds where you can choose which order you want your stats priorities to be placed in, and my current character has great strenght, great dexterity, great constitution and average everything else, and let me tell you that I am -far- from being overpowered.. Honestly, most of my warriors have been characters with either great strenght or great dexterity, and I'm pretty sure that mostly all the other warrior-types of characters put either strenght or dexterity or constitution as one of their first main stats.. And -no- one is overpowered in either game, and the role-play is just as good as any.

Is there anything wrong with that? If you're the uber-role-player who wants everything to be a surprise, or you enjoy playing a warrior with poor strenght, then just roll a dice and place your stats the way the dice tells you to do so, or place strenght near the end, but why must everything be so harsh in this game, when it's already difficult to keep a character for a long period of time? I'm a bit tired of re-creating characters because the game is so harsh, yet the basic of a character doesn't give me any slight advantages unless I'm lucky.

Not everyone enjoys playing a hunter who's blows "bounces off pretty much anything he tries to hunt" or who can't use anything but the smallest of bows.

And if you apply for a magicker, then I assume it is because you enjoy the magick aspect of the game, and to tell someone that he should rp his character even if he can't learn any new spells, it's just ridiculous in my opinion.. This is a game, so you have to add some fun aspect to it, not everyone enjoys playing a noble character or a merchant type that sits in the tavern to gossip all day long..

So stats ARE important.. Unfortunatly, each time someone mentions stats being important for them is labelled a twink, and this is why I choose to post anonymously, and no, I am not sjanimal, or whatever his name is

So stats are important for me, they might not be important for you, but why must you be totally against giving us non-uber-bar-rpers a little break from time to time? We probably are a good percentage of your playerbase.

[Linedel]

I guess it's not much fun when your warrior with poor str and agili get beaten up by a merchant or something.

It's quite fun for the merchant.  (Or other non melee classes I'm sure...

[Cavus]

Recovering from "reroll" is the most innocent suggestion here. And, I really want our players to declare their votes about this idea. I think there should be no big opposition from staffs and players.

[Marauder Moe]

I vote against it.

Sometimes I think stats should be random AND hidden.

[Marauder Moe]

Alright, I'm bored right now so I'll go ahead and throw in my full two 'sids.

Just as in real life, not everyone can be the best at what they do.  Characters who have exceptional stats that match up well with their guilds are rare and special.  

As it is right now, lets say that (hypothetical satistics) only one in ten thieves have very good agility or better.  Now, many of those thieves have some other stat thats really good.  Some learn really fast and some are able to survive quite a beating, but they're pretty average (or poor) thieves.  This seems realistic to me.  If stat ordering (or some other form of control) were implemented, the figures would probably reverse.  Nine out of ten thieves would have really good agility.  The remaining thief with not so great agility is going to be the player who wants to portray an average or crappy thief.

The PC population would be full of super-heroes.  Granted, already there is a tendancy towards exceptionalism in the players vs. virtual people, but stat ordering would make it even worse.  You would nearly eliminate both the exceptional, super-statted, naturally-talented PC as well as the tragic, poorly-statted, bad-at-what-he-does PC.  I think both of those roles are important to the game and should be maintained.

That's why I'm against changes to stat determination.

[Cavus]

Hmm. Even if I am with the idea of being able to take back the reroll, I have some defendings points for stat ordering.

I don't believe that stat ordering would create super heros/thieves. Because what proposed is just giving some priority. In that system there could be a char like this if str has the highest priority:
Strenght-->good
Agility-->below average
Wisdom-->below average
Endurance-->poor

Is this warrior uber powered? No, but it gives the player what he wants because str is the highest of all stats.

Now, my thoghts. This stat ordering is not a "must" I think. I only need some flexibility, so I will be with my idea of "recovering reroll". It is enough modification in my opinion.

[Marauder Moe]

You have to admit, though, that the percentage of thieves with good agility would increase.  The super-thieves would become that much less special and the average/crappy thieves that much less common.  Same with adding more rerolls or letting you take back a reroll, though those would have lesser effects.

Players shouldn't always get what they want.

[Anonymous]

I already told you that with stat ordering there is no such thing as a PC "super-hero" on the other two RPI muds that I play, where you prioritize your stats.

There wouldn't be 9 out of 10 "super" thieves if most thieves would put agility as their first stat, the smartest thieves would still be the "super" thieves of the game, except you wouldn't be stuck with a thief with poor agility as a player who really had good hopes for his character and took the time to write a nice background.

How many new players do you think are tired of re-creating a character for the fifth time in their first week because the game is so harsh, stat ordering is just a little boost to help us out in the end.

I've played those two RPI muds that I've mentioned for over five years now and I've never seen anyone get far in the game just because he had "great" strenght or great intelligence. It's just a small thing to help out, so that your stats matches your background somehow.

There's a cap anyway, no one ends up with great in every stats, someone with great strenght and great con will probably end up with average in everything else, and if he is very lucky, he might have super strenght, and everything else will be either good or average.

So anyway.. Even if most thieves end up with placing agility in their first priority, you still end up with thieves ranging from amazing agility all the way to good agility, it's still luck, but at least you're giving them an extra chance when they start.

And enough already with the RL comparison, if I had poor strenght when I was a kid, with bad endurance, always coughing and being frail, I'd certainly wouldn't try to sell myself as a mercenary when I'm in my 20's, same goes if I can't concentrate for more than five minutes, I certainly won't spend all of my youth trying to become a magicker.

So by the age of twenty, you probably know what you're good at, except on Arm they don't give you your stats, then let you choose a guild, it's the other way around.. So stats reflecting the career you selected for your character would be very nice.

I love to play teenagers, but right now I keep making characters aged from 20 to 25 because I know that age affects your stats, and I know that strenght will be very important for me, as a warrior.. But I hate starting so late in my career, I love to build up a history from scratch, but right now, I know that if I pick a youth as my age, I risk ending up with very bad strenght, endurance, wisdom, unless I'm very lucky.

[Marauder Moe]

I find it strange that people will say that stats don't matter while still vehemently arguing (with references to people SUICIDING over bad stats) that they need to be able to pick/order/reroll them.

[Anonymous]

I'm telling you that stats matters to me, especially the ones matching the background and career of my characters.

Amazing stats won't make a super hero, or even a hero. It really helps you out when you start, tho.

[Marauder Moe]

Alright, we'll agree to disagree then.

[Linedel]

I could go for the following.

Allow options to have random or specified stats.

For each race, random stats, in general, would average to a sum of, say, 40, assuming 10 average for each stat.

Allow a character who wishes to choose their stats to distribute 34 points.

Or, allow a character to determine their stat order, then subtract one from each roll.

Yep, you'll be below average overall, but you won't be stuck with poor whatever stat you wanted.

However, I don't think its worth the effort to code.