The Economics of Scarcity

[Sanvean]

I wanted to bring up a point that I've been contemplating for a while, and that is: making trade deals in the game.

This happens periodically -- someone is playing in a particular clan or tribe and they begin making deals.  The problem is that, 90% of the time, these deals are unrealistic.

Let's remember, first off, that Zalanthas is a harsh world.  Just because your tribe produces a specific commodity, it doesn't mean that they have a surplus.  If you contract to sell a supply of their liquor to some other group, for example, your tribemates may not be too happy since now there is none for them.

Think hard about the quantities involved.  Are they reasonable?  Can a tribe of twenty really produce enough furs to clothe a small village?  Or can a tribe of 100-200, for example, really produce enough food to feed an additional 500 people?  That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Some groups do have surpluses - Allanak might be presumed to have a surplus of obsidian, the Northlands might have a surplus of wood, or Kurac an abundance of spice.  But excess food?  Very few, if any, groups are going to have that.  I can't think of any, offhand, with perhaps the exception of Red Storm East having extra wheat - which they need to trade for other foodstuffs in order to survive.

No one has an unlimited supply of anything (again, I'll hedge my bets by saying that I can think of none, but I'm willing to entertain the notion they might exist).  This actually makes things more interesting.  If your house contracts with Kadius to outfit all your slaves in silk, that may very well have the effect of meaning Kadius can't supply a similar large order to someone else.

Nessalin touches upon some of this in his post in this thread: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11665&highlight=&sid=bae4e5cec24e1c64b1f90e84ccc993d5
and I think it's worth reading in light of these thoughts.

Is the economy shown well in the game?  No, I don't think it is, although it's better than in the past.  But having both players and staff keep in mind that resources are never unlimited may help us continue to move towards refining it.  

I'd be glad to hear suggestions as to how this can be better played out in the game, and what you think.  Any replies and justifications about how your specific trade deal didn't/doesn't fit into this category are going to be removed in the name of keeping us on track.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Especially tribes.  People should realize that a hunter-gather society is incapable of producing any surpluses of consequence.  Trade will not be much of a factor of their society, since they don't have anything to trade, except perhaps a few random trinkets pawned off on an individual basis.

Oh yeah, and I'm not sure if scarcity is what you really mean.  In an economic sense, all goods are scarce no matter what their quantity is, including spice in Red Storm and obsidian in Allanak.

[Bestatte]

I agree to some extent. However some things aren't "produced" so much as they are harvested from wild natural growth. An example would be a tribe that subsists on local roots and meat, which exist in relative abundance.

There are maybe - 200, 300, even 500 virtual members of the tribe, and that's a LOT of roots and meat. So if their harvesters are out there and pick up an extra dozen roots per day for a couple of weeks, that will definitely be enough to help feed a few hundred slaves on a temporary basis, without risking the ecological balance.

As for the liquor example, most liquors in real life are produced by letting inedible vegetables/fruits ferment in one method or another. Either with the mash/extraction process or distillation, it still means you're dealing with overripe stuff that is probably not fit to eat anyway. So if you're out there with your harvesters and pick up the almost-rotten stuff instead of letting it become mulch, you'll have a lovely surplus to trade with whoever wants it.

I think it's also important for the people who are -requesting- these things of various groups/entities, to consider their part in all this. The providor isn't the one to "blame" so much as the noble, or templar, or other "important person" who requests such a thing in the first place. The moment it's requested, the burden falls on the potential provider to get in touch with their clan imm, who may or may not agree with the logistics - and then you have to deal with setting it up if it's okayed, or finding out a way to deny the requesting party without pissing them off too much.

Saying "The clan imm says you can't have it because it isn't logical in this game" isn't exactly good RP, ya know? But it's still the potential provider's responsibility to ask, when the request is made by the noble/merchant/important person.

In fact there is an example just like this in the game at the present time - quantities of stuff available that probably shouldn't be available in such volume, even though the original experimental year's worth of the item was a failure and produced no useful return for the provider. It is doubtful the provider would be quick to continue providing the item - but apparently some virtual deal was worked out because there it is, on the NPC's list of goods. Maybe the provider sold the recipe to the requester. But there's really no way of knowing at the moment, so all you can do is state what you observe - that something that was not working to benefit both sides, is continuing anyway.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I agree to some extent. However some things aren't "produced" so much as they are harvested from wild natural growth. An example would be a tribe that subsists on local roots and meat, which exist in relative abundance.

There are maybe - 200, 300, even 500 virtual members of the tribe, and that's a LOT of roots and meat. So if their harvesters are out there and pick up an extra dozen roots per day for a couple of weeks, that will definitely be enough to help feed a few hundred slaves on a temporary basis, without risking the ecological balance.

That's impossible, because again, a hunter-gatherer tribe cannot produce a surplus of food.  The tiny surplus they can produce is worthless because it can't be stored without rotting away.

And besides, I don't think abundance is a good term for anywhere on Zalanthas, except maybe the Borsail Estate.

[wizturbo]

There is no easy way to create a realistic economic system, but I have one contribution to make for a step in the right direction.

For each imm-supported clan create a list of the resources or products it acquires every IG month.  These should be created with the utmost care.  From that point on, an increase or decrease to those numbers comes at the expense of another clan's supply, or is gathered by PC's as "extra" above this given virtual value.  

After the production/acquisition side is made, then create an internal usage per month, and the surplus (if any exists) can then be used in trade.  After this, trade contracts can be put into effect.

For instance, lets take a theoretical example for House Oash's wine production/Consumption for a given month:

Production:
40 kegs of standard wine
20 kegs of silver label wine
10 kegs of gold label
5   kegs of special varieties

Internal Consumption:
10 kegs of standard wine
15 kegs of silver label
7   kegs of gold label
5   kegs of special varieties

Wine available for trade:
30-  Standard
05-  Silver
03-  Gold label
00-  Special variety  (Notice, this wine is always consumed within the House by those snobby elitists who don't intend to share.  The only way to get a keg of this wine, is to have extra production or for some snobby Senior Oashi not to get his keg this month)


Trade Agreements:

15 kegs of standard wine sold to the Trader's Inn every month at 2,000 sid per keg.  (30,000 extra sid in the Oash coffers every month above their stipend)
10 kegs of standard wine sold at the Oashi wine shoppe, prices vary.
3 kegs of silver wine sold at Oashi wine shopee, prices vary.
3 kegs of gold label wine used as bribes to Templarate or gifts to other noble houses.

Stored Wine for a sand-stormy day:

5 kegs of standard wine a month
2 kegs of silver wine a month


Following the given example above, lets enter into the possibility that House Fale approaches Oash asking to buy 10 kegs of standard wine for a huge Wedding party the following month.  Being offered a hefty sum that Oash simply cannot refuse, they agree to the trade.

The effects of this trade agreement will then ripple through the economy in the following ways (this is just one possibility)

1.  The price of standard wine in Allanak increases, both in the Trader's Inn and the Oashi wine shop for the entire month.
2.  The standard wine stored in the Oashi cellars is depleted.



Anyway, you get the idea.  It wont' be easy to set up initially, but if such a system were introduced it would make the economy considerably more dynamic, and also allow for those in a mercantile role to make noticeable effects on the economy in a variety of interesting ways.

[Sanvean]

I do agree that both sides of the equation need to consider these factors and the people requesting such deals need to think about whether it's a reasonable request or not.

I'm not sure why, when asked to speak to the point of the question rather than discussing why a specific trade deal didn't fit into this category, Bestatte's decided to bring up specific trade deals, but okay, let's look at those particular cases, because they're good illustrations of proposals that were not well-thought through.

Let's say the tribe in question has 250 members, which seems like an overestimate, but works as a starting point.  Of that number, not all are actively hunting for food.  Some are elderly, others are concerned with childrearing or bearing, some are too young to hunt, some guard the camp, some work as crafters, etc.  Let's assume half of those are actively hunting for food on the days where the weather allows them to.  That gives us, in a -very- generous estimate, 125 hunter-gatherers, each of which is supplying (at least) one other person.

Remember that, despite code that might imply the contrary, you can't dig roots out of the ground indefinitely.  Therefore your food-gatherers have to roam, competing with other species as well as the populations of at least two other tribes for that food.  Overhunting and overgathering will result in scarcity later on.  There's a reason a tribe doesn't expand in population indefinitely; a tribe will grow until it hits the limits of its food supplies and stop there, unless some natural disaster or outside force kills off a number of them.  Thinking that anyone can wander the plains harvesting extra bushels of roots is simply not realistic.

Slaves canot subsist on starvation rations, unless you don't plan on getting any work out of them.  Historians estimate that American slaves received a weekly ration of one peck (8 quarts) of cornmeal, a pound of beef or salt pork, and a little molasses or salted fish.  Even with that, it was not sufficient to support a day's hard manual labor, and slaves supplemented that diet with their own hunting and/or stealing wherever they can.  Assuming that a tribe can produce the quantity of food necessarily to support a number of slaves equivalent to two or three times their own population, even if it's only for a week or two (not the case of the originally proposed trade deal) is, again, simply not realistic, even if "they supplement it by eating grass".

Similarly, there are not heaps of rotting, harvestable fruit lying about in the plains area.  Creatures on the plains compete for the resources.  Picking up the overripe stuff means you missed it the first time. You can't both gather more than you need *and* have leftovers to get overripe, even if you're willing to ensure that there will be no food the next growing season because nothing has been left to go to seed.  

Could we now go back to actually discussing the point of the post?  I really like Wizturbo's suggestion, and I'm trying to figure out some ways to implement it.

If you see something that is in the game and seems economically non-fesible, feel free to bug it, and we'll take a look.

[JoyRide]

Bleh, I should read all the posts before posting. Deleted.

[DrunkenSalarr]

I remember the last time I actually -played- a Salarri (Don't know if you remember Lilu/"Tits" the Salarri guard), I worked very close to my merchant and Economics did play a -huge- role.  Certain materials were not avail.  so our crafters could not make certain items, it didn't matter who you were.  And when we did have the materials, the prices of the items was extreamly high.

I loved this aspect of the game, to actually see this post about it made me smile, but I still wanted to put in my two sid on it.

[Jacques]

I think a HUGE first step for this would be to eliminate "virtual" items. Do you want ten kegs of wine? Great - get ten "keg of wine" items, and then you can sell them or give them away. You'll need actual PCs or NPCs to move them around, too. And probably a wagon. If people want these things, they'll have to find or make them, or ask their clan imms for them. The clan imms can then quite easily say "Sorry - there isn't that much available." At which point, the unrealistic deal goes away.

Can a tribe outgrow its food supply? Maybe - but from a player perspective, you can only get what you gather for yourself, and no player is going to be able to promise the resources of the tribe because they don't have them available. Now, with the clan imm they can MAKE them available, but now you've got the staff involved, making sure the deal isn't too crazy.

Example: I was in a Noble House in 'Nak once that wanted some spice. A *LOT* of spice. Bricks and bricks of it. (No, I don't know why and wouldn't tell you even if I did ) The purchase of that spice was done ICly, as was the exchange of the money (chests full of coins are HEAVY) and the ACTUAL, CODED SPICE. It was a great example of this, and probably took more than a little RP to get together - much more than simply saying "OK, I agree we'll give you a zillion virtual coins, and you give us one ton of virtual spice in assorted colors."

Obviously for some things this won't work entirely (slaves comes immediately to mind), but this would be a very large first step. If people want to make a deal, make the person making the deal the one to ensure it happens. Just my $0.02 about how to limit the "unrealistic deals" while still giving clanned PCs the power to make the occasional 'sid now and then.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree completely with Jaques and Wiz. Additonally, I would like to say this. Each clan (and small group of clans, in tribals' cases) need an Immortal strictly for the numerical portions of clan work.

Such as, the NPCs that PC house merchants buy from to sell to PC outsiders. These should be done away with and an actual storehouse/warehouse should be implemented, with the Immortal in charge of economics for House Pishwah filling their storeroom with the actual units available, not only for outsiders, but also for House use.

If one warehouse is filled, and Pishwah has three centers of distribution, then trips are needed to supply one warehouse from the main warehouse. This means trips must be made, risks taken, military and traders alike involved. Not only will exorbant economics be cured in this manner, but RPTs will be created.

If you miss a point here, ask me a question and I will elaborate. Tryna play with what little time I have now days.

[wizturbo]

All the attempts i've taken thus far to think of ways to simplify (and thus make it easier to implement) the idea I posted earlier on this thread have only lead to more complications.  This is NOT any easy problem to solve.

The easiest solution, in my eyes, is for a firm decision to be made regarding the production capacities of various clans, and then documentation be added so that PC and immortals alike can properly adjust.  An official "Economics of <clan>" should be made for every clan, and either put where PC's of the clan can read it, or at least available for immortals to learn more about it.  This documentation in my opinion, should be overseen by one, grandmaster game-wide economics immortal who then works with each clan immortals to create an economic outlook that fits with the entire world, instead of being fragmented based on the individual views of each clan imm.

Once this documention is in place, Immortals and players can both take them into account when making various trade decisions.

Here's a theoretical example of what this documentation could include using a hypothetical logging outpost in the grey forest owned by the Wonka Family.

Economic assets of the Outpost:

1.  Wood, wood and more wood.  The Outpost is responsible for the collection and then distribution of wood throughout the entire known world.

2.  A defendable, medium sized outpost with two wells that supply enough water to give the guards and loggers at the Outpost decent water rations, but leaves very little surplus.

3.  Two argosies used for the transportation of logs and planks.

4.  A large arsenal of weapons and armor owned by the House to supply their guard force.  As well as excellent logging equipment.


Liabilities:

1.  A large, expensive guard force.  They escort the logging parties, guard the Outpost, and escort the transports from the ever constant Halfling threat.  The upkeep of this guard force leaves the Wonka's heavily sensitive to any loss in revenue, keeping them always one or two steps away from collapsing.

2.  The outpost is constantly competing for food with the Halflings, making costs of food rather high.  Flour is imported in from Red Storm in exchange for a massive yearly shipment of logs, but the flour does not come until the argosy makes the trip to deliver the logs and then fills its stores with flour to transport back. This leaves the House extremely vulnerable to food shortages if the logging crews don't meet their quotas in time for that shipment.


Trade Situations and Agreements


1.  Very little outside trade comes to the Outpost, because of the threat of Halfling attack, leaving stone, chitin, and other goods readily available outside the grey forest in high demand.  These materials are generally bought in large quantities and loaded on the argosy for its return trip after delivering logs to each of the city-states which leaves only a small but potentially lucrative market for the brave few that will make supply runs to the outpost through the dangerous forest.





.........I think you get the idea

The information doesn't have to be clearly numerical and fit into some great accountancy scheme, but both imm's and players need to be informed of certain economic hardships and advantages of their clan.

[Comrade Canadia]

Hah!  Sweet Malthusian economics.  Thanks for bringing up this topic Sanvean, I love this stuff.  

First, on what Sanvean said about scarcity.

Famous economist Malthus said way back in the day that all societies are doomed to exist on the brink of starvation.  The very nature of a society is to grow until the resources are stretched to a point where it will cease to grow.  Although this is an excellent point, it's also far too simplistic.   Countless factors will contribute to keeping a population down, ESPECIALLY on Zalanthas.  Malthus himself grudgingly admitted that 'moral restraint' would temper a population's size.

I'm not sure I entirely buy moral restraint as a serious means of population control on Zalanthas, but the climate and local wildlife are a different case altogether.  Anyways, my point here is that although it's likely that resources will be scarce for Tribe A, it's not a given.  Especially in the wake of any disasterous situations.

That said, having economics in game that function on scarcity is still an <i>excellent</i> idea.  Economics don't really exist in armag except in the basest sense.  All of the goods just 'happen' and there's a limitless supply of money.  Sometimes little controls are placed down by imms who will point out shortages of certain types of items... but this isn't that common an occurance.

How many of you have played Civilization III?  It's an excellent little game, and one of the neatest features it had was 'resources'.  You build a city, and let's say you have a supply of a resource nearby.  When you do, you can use this resource to benefit your city.  If you have TWO of these resources nearby?  Hey!  You can trade it!

Removing virtual items from the game and replacing them with coded objects sounds...  not good.  Too much work involved for something that should be simpler.  A -better- way to do this would be to have clan imms simply create and maintain a list of the resources a clan has access to.

If you have a -consistent list- of resources every clan employs, then the trade deals are going to make a lot more sense.  These lists can exist in relation to each other, and clans that overlap territory can come into conflict and all that good stuff.  You can list what the clan has in surplus, what it has sufficient amounts of, and what resources are scarce.  Just something simple like:

Resource A - Scarce
Resource B - Enough to maintain population
Resource C-  Small surplus
Resource D - Hard to acquire, but not scarce.
Resource E -  Large surplus

See?  Easy.

There's no need to make coded examples of every tradeable object in the game.  That's silly.  A simple list of all resources that a clan come into contact with is much easier.  Coded -reflections- of the abundance, or scarcity of certain items will make things a great deal more manageable as well.  Whaddya think?

Now, if we can figure out a way in which the mud doesn't have a limitless supply of money... *evil grin*

-Dave

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Now, if we can figure out a way in which the mud doesn't have a limitless supply of money... *evil grin*

Well. The actual money is made of obsidian. Obsidian has to be mined. You need people to mine obsidian, and thus far, there are no NPCs to be seen doing this that I've noticed, or even any VNPC's reflected in any room desc's mining obsidian. Though they must be concidering lately there seems to be a very small few PC's who mine obsidian. Of course not all the obsidian goes to making coins, there's jewelry, swords and whatnot.

I'm sure there's a few reasons that will be quickly pointed out to me as to why this won't work, especially since I haven't fully thought it out, but if there were a just few more mines, and put some NPC's out there mining to reflect where the coins are coming from.. Enter some opportunistic raider who plucks off said NPC who were going to deliver their cart of obsidian, then there would be a shortage, unless said raider turned right around and sold the load. But there would still be no NPC to go out and mine the next day, instead of having them respawn quickly there could be an IG couple of weeks where it'd rely on PC's who mine and sell.

This could, I think, work the same with the NPC/VNPC merchants who make and sell the obsidian weapons and armor. They have to get their obsidian from somewhere, if there's a shortage, the price of the obsidian armor and weapons go up.

Or too, instead of giving all the mines such a fast respawn time, when it's tapped out make it last longer before another is uncovered by shifting sand. Maybe some deposits are bigger than others, some smaller. Small ones could be randomly uncovered and covered by bad storms, larger ones more rare since they'd obviously be more profitable *shrug* And if there's a shortage of obsidian, it might start people actually relying on more of a bartering of various goods for other things, instead of just forking over lumps of coins for everything they need.

Like I said, this isn't entirely thought through, but it might be some sort of starting point.

[Synthesis]

Those obsidian deposits shouldn't be confused with the Allanaki Obsidian Mines.

Err...carry on.

[Xamminy]

Moral restraint?  I think such a thing does exist on Zalanthas...or should possibly be referred to as "immoral restraint" considering how I see it.  There's enough people out there killing someone for some reason that isn't simply for the resources gained from that person.  You have people killing elves because they're elves, or humans because they're humans, or magickers because they're magickers and even non-magickers because they're trying to kill the magickers.  Really, the list goes on.  That's not going to keep a society's population levels under a much control, however, and probably would keep the levels pretty close to that starvation point.

Still, I disagree with the banishment of the virtual world in maintaining the economy of the game.  With so many items in the database not craftable, this requires IMM intervention to produce these items until crafting recipes have been introduced for all of these items.  This means that few PCs are making these items, but that these are being made by the virtual members of the House.  Those people are producing virtual items for the virtual customers of the House etc etc...but when they are producing for the non-virtual PCs?  This means that the House's resources are being used up virtually for many things that DO leave the House.  It isn't just a matter of how much the House has and that is how much the PCs in the House have access to.  The amount of any resource needed for the House's needs to customers will fluctuate as the demand for things made of that ebb and flow.  This fluctuation could come in the form of fashion, where rubies are the 'in thing' in Allanak this year, or accidental necessity, like half the militia's uniforms were burned or melted to slag by a rampaging herd of Krathi.  No one thing will have the same amount of demand.  If a system was devised for coming up with what resources are needed at any time and then a system for demand for those resources including fluctuation, we could work from there.  However, just assigning a flat amount makes the whole system static and lifeless to me, and what we're trying for is to make the world come alive, isn't it?

[Jacques]

I'm very much enjoying the discussions revolving around the "make a list of what the clan actually has" idea. However, there is something that people do not seem to be taking into account, or at least have not emphasized. I will say it now, with emphasis.

PC clan members, even nobles, usually represent only a TINY fraction of the actual clan.

This means that even if the clan has 100 barrels full of Magic Mul(tm) Ale, any given clan PC wouldn't have the ability to get anywhere near that many because other members of the clan also need it.

It seems to me that the idea of making up a "production list" is a good one for giving a sense of scale to the various clans, but maintaining it would involve a TON of bookkeeping for the staff. Based on what people would like to see, I'm imagining several hours per week, per clan, because they'll have to keep track of how many of what were used every week, how many are left over, how many went bad, how many were robbed in a recent raid, etc. Sure, this is great in a computer game, when it's all coded in an iterative subroutine - but we're talking staff time to do all of this. This is time that they're not going to be able to spend organizing clan RPTs, helping with player requests, working on clan items, or what have you. I know from experience that many of our staff members have only a limited amount of time they can spend at this, so any solution to this situation that minimizes the time they have to regularly spend on it is going to get my vote.

As for eliminating virtual items being a bad idea, I still don't think so. If someone needs something from their clan, I don't see that asking the clan immortals for it is a bad idea. Loading whatever it is should take only seconds, once it's agreed upon. The problem with doing it virtually is that because people don't have an actual physical (can I say that about a MUD item?) item, you either assume you have enough (and thus get to the "unrealistic" deal problem) or SOMEONE has to keep track of how many virtual items are there. That means staff, and taking away their time. See above.

Since I'm to the point of repeating myself, I'll shut up for now.

[My 2 sids]

I think the problem of realistically portraying the economy is the seemingly endless supply of money being pumped into the game.  The more money pumped into the game, the more people believe they can afford.  In an effort to outdo each other or to even keep up with other PCs there has to be more and more money and luxury (anything not basic people spend their money on) put into the game.

Many PCs code-wise don't have to buy anything actually needed (food, shelter, water, clothing) and so their funds are pure money to burn.  Most all PCs are on the same playing field.  Harsh things like scraping together food, water, clothing, and shelter don't exist for most PCs who are given these things when they join clans and Houses.  Instead of having to put money and resources into basic things, we have almost every PC able to buy silk, have their own apartment, and buy off GOBS of "problem solvers" and "spies" and other luxury items that go along with economies where the majority can afford a luxurious life style.  

Should the game create incomes more in tune with the hierarchy of status, I think the economy would then fall in line.  Commoner PCs who only have 1-10% of their income left (after food, shelter, and water) will ask for a lot less... supply and demand would become more reasonable for a society that doesn't produce much surplus.  Nobles, who shouldn't want free market economies anyway, should have to be more concerned with favors than simply tossing money around to get what they want.  A lot more of trade (say, wine for slaves or whatever) should come from the noble houses.  With nobility focusing on trade and favors, and commoners not having so much disposable income, that evens out the economy when rich merchants start tossing money everywhere.

I think by universally taking away the luxury abundance from the game, that will create the economy of a more "harsh" world.

[Xamminy]

If you reduce the pay received by the people in clans, I guarantee you, most of them will leave those clans to become independents.  The problem is reducing the amount of money everyone brings in at once, or increase the price they have to pay for everything all at once, so that the change affects everyone.

[Seeker]

Hrmm...

Trade is critical to the game.  Vital for PCs interactions, the justification of the entire Merchant House scheme of Zalanthas, the foundation of at least two or three of the Noble Houses, and the only manner of survival for quite a few of the tribal societies.  It is a core component in the web that binds institutions together, in profit and bloody competition.

I think that this is essentially a staff education issue.  

The game is designed so that no large scale trade deals can be binding without IMM approval.  PCs simply do not generally have the authority to do contractual obligations for their respective clans.  It is the staff who are authorizing these types of arrangements whether they are balanced and justified, or not.

A simple, basic concept document for each organization, listing production capability of items for trade, might go a long way to helping, but a "master spreadsheet" for clan inventories, trade in and trade out, would be far too labor intensive.  I imagine the IMMs didn't sign up to become masters of market economics, or data entry drones.

The same way that Nobles cannot buy whatever their little heart's desire because the House controls the pursestrings; the same way that a Merchant can't sell whatever their mouth promises because their superiors control production; the same way that a tribal can't commit to produce enough cloth to clothe a village because he doesn't speak on behalf of all the others of his people who will actually do the work:  staff, usually in the role of ranking NPCs, must evalute and approve.

I have some ideas about the nature of trade in Zalanthas.  Some ideas about the value of these connections, and how they are the lifeblood of some of the groups across the Known World, but my ideas and concepts can be wrong.  Wanna hear 'em sometime?


Seeker

[wizturbo]

I think that this is essentially a staff education issue.  



Seeker

I agree.  At least, if we want to make the solution simple.  Educate clan-imm's about what each clan can or cannot do, and then let that information filter down to PC's via NPC's or clan docs.  The more detailed and interesting the documentation on each clan's economic state, the more interesting the interactions with those pc's engaged in such activities.

[Comrade Canadia]

Bingo.  There's no reason to make this difficult and complex.  Just simply list what resources are available to what clan, and a rough idea of what quantity of this resource is tradeable.  A master spreadsheet if, again, done SIMPLY wouldn't be a bad idea.  Have each clan imm do the work, and then compile it into one file.  Hell of a lot easier than creating objects for every single tradeable reasource.

By keeping a tab on what everyone has, you can, to an extent, see who is going to interact with who and hell - build clan histories based off of what resources are available.  Geography is THE major determinant in culture, and if something along the lines of what we're talking about becomes implemented, then culture in game will develop far more organically.  Nothing but good, in my opinion.

-Dave

[jmordetsky]

I think a HUGE first step for this would be to eliminate "virtual" items.

Yup.

[EvilRoeSlade]

If you reduce the pay received by the people in clans, I guarantee you, most of them will leave those clans to become independents.  The problem is reducing the amount of money everyone brings in at once, or increase the price they have to pay for everything all at once, so that the change affects everyone.

Then I suggest that independants likewise need to be "nerfed" as they put it in the City of Hero's forums.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

EvilRoeSlade wrote:

Then I suggest that independants likewise need to be "nerfed" as they put it in the City of Hero's forums.

Speaking on behalf of the independents...
All my independent characters were usually living on the brink. By avoiding twinking out, and simply buying food, water and shelter for themselves and their mount, my independent hunter/scavenger/crafter characters often found themselves without a single 'sid to their names.
No, that's not an exaggeration. They broke even, made no money, were as poor as dirt, and that's the way I like it. A harsher economy for independents might not make independents less twinky. Instead, it might just let the twinkish ones prosper as the twinkless ones get frustrated and join clans.
So before we going around "nerfing" people, I think we should try putting greater pressure on people, IC and OOC, to play realistically.
Your desert tribe should not be selling off 'excess' casks of their ceremonial wine. Your dusty, smelly half-elf's inix should not be crawling under the weight of duskhorn horns. Your Oashi should not be selling off barrels of vintage wine to strangers when it could be going to the family.
My point is, I think the responsibility for this should rest on the player's shoulders, with perhaps a bit of not-so-gentle nudging from the Imms. That's all.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Well, let me qualify my statement.  It needs to be impossible to make ridiculous profit off of doing an activity such as hunting, which incidently shouldn't be likely to bring profit at all.

At the same time, any changes made to bring the above into effect should have little to no effect on bottom-feeding scrappers who barely manage to survive from day to day.  If you're playing one of these characters, it should be because the code makes it impossible for you to rise above your situation, not because your balancing your IC desires for prosperity with your OOC understanding of the limits of your character.  That's always a hard call to make, and quite frankly, I don't think people should have to make it.

So making water cost 500 sid a gallon would be a bad change, since it would make twinking necessary for people to to survive outside of a clan.

Reducing the value of a skinnable object from 500 sid to 50 sid would be a good change.

If the staff intentionally wants a certain creature to be valuable, on the other hand, making the creature very hard to come by would be a good change.

I think that changes would also help people understand the broader picture, of what is and isn't possible, as Sanvean has suggested.  
<edited by staff to remove reference to specific trade deal>  Just because your PC can produce a surplus of food without breaking a sweat, doesn't mean that your entire tribe can do the same on a scale proportional to your tribe's number.  It doesn't even mean that your character SHOULD be producing such a surplus.

[Yang]

It all comes down to the cost of alcohol at your local tavern. Trust me. That's where you begin your measurements of economic scarcity.

It's always been about the cost of alcohol.

[Angela Christine]

Many PCs code-wise don't have to buy anything actually needed (food, shelter, water, clothing) and so their funds are pure money to burn.  Most all PCs are on the same playing field.  Harsh things like scraping together food, water, clothing, and shelter don't exist for most PCs who are given these things when they join clans and Houses.  Instead of having to put money and resources into basic things, we have almost every PC able to buy silk, have their own apartment,

An apartment is shelter.  Most apartments available to PCs are simply one small room, which isn't particularily luxurious.  One small room with no private (or even non-private) bathroom, kitchen or plumbing -- that's even worse than the average rooming house or "residential hotel" room.  Most people do not live in taverns, they have a flop somewhere.  Ok, most people don't live alone either.  That's MUD quirckiness for you,  you don't have to share, but you don't get the security of having family members around while you sleep or when you leave either

I think renting rooms is a perfectly reasonable way of bleeding off "excess" funds from PCs.


AC

[Linedel]

Thinking about this on the way home...

I disagree that players should never do this (rarely, sure, but not never).

It would be bad in the long run for members (corporations) of a tribe (united states) to export ridiculous amounts of some resource (jobs) to some other organization (India).  But in the short run, and for that member (corporation), they personally become quite profitable....

Blah blah blah.. real world is not Zalanthas...  The fact that the Labyrinth exists in its highly unrealistic (for earth) state suggests that the code of conduct and personal greed of Zalanthians is somewhat worse than that of earth dwellers, therefore...

It is in no way poor roleplaying for a member of any organization to do something like that.  Now, that doesn't mean the organization won't be able to figure out who did it, and make sure they don't have that problem again...  And it doesn't mean that that individual shouldn't be aware that their organization wouldn't be able to figure it out... and they should, most likely, fear this, and plan for their event IC for a while in order to cover up the reason for the sudden disappearance of X resource...

[Maybe42or54]

I once had a room that could only hold 2 medium sized chests and a cot.
Not a lotta room for a family.
My idea (To add to ~convorsation)
Salt. Pays a lot. Twinking. I can earn a lot. House Jal can't afford me I make so much.
Mining 'sid. Pays a lot. Twinking. I can earn a lot. Allanak can't afford me I make so much.
Hunting. Kill one specific creature an OOC day. Get about 600 off of it. From something really easy to kill. House Kadius', salarr's pc merchants can't afford me.
Cut wood. Easy enough. Pays a lot. Pc merchants pay for it. Twinking. I can earn a lot. Kaius can barely afford me and the halfling don't want a forest cut down.

Let's make what everything pays, less.

[Cuusardo]

I'd like to point out that there are already a lot of people in the game who have opted to go independent, and for some of them it's because they've found ways to make more money that way then working for a clan.  I know my perspective is greatly limited in this, but I've seen more independents who have gotten apartments than clanned people.  (That might be because clannies automatically get a place to sleep, but I digress.)  My point is it seems to me these days that indies are already making more money than clannies, as though the economy does not affect them.

[Anonymous]

Well, let me qualify my statement.  It needs to be impossible to make ridiculous profit off of doing an activity such as hunting, which incidently shouldn't be likely to bring profit at all.

Ridiculous profit?  No.  But I think you are wrong in saying that it shouldn't be likely to bring a profit at all considering animals are one of the chief sources of raw materials for all sorts of things including clothing, armor, tools, weapons and even structures.

[Xamminy]

Harvest from dead things.  That should bring profit, but not enough to afford the best armors and weapons in the world as well as multiple apartments.

The biggest problem with the economy of Zalanthas is how the code is set up.  It rewards the twink.

[Lazloth]

Reducing the value of a skinnable object from 500 sid to 50 sid would be a good change.

For an independent hunter, I've always found it's risk v. reward.  If you're suggesting flatly reducing value on skinnable pieces by 90%, then I strongly disagree.  (Conversely, if there is an item whose value is grossly overinflated, cutting that particular object certainly makes sense.)  You're ignoring the overhead (supplies:  arrows, replacement weapons, armor, shelter); there's certainly a balance to walk, and posters in this thread have given their testimonies.  Crafters and traders (imho) have a much easier time of earning money and don't put their necks on the lines; I don't think touching shop vendors is the answer.

Back to the original point of the thread, I like what Jacques says here:

I think a HUGE first step for this would be to eliminate "virtual" items. Do you want ten kegs of wine? Great - get ten "keg of wine" items, and then you can sell them or give them away. You'll need actual PCs or NPCs to move them around, too.

..but caution to remind that the PC contingent represents only a fractional constituent of a clan, and that the virtual workers certainly contribute virtual goods.

I like that impacting the environment will affect the world.  Log too much of an area, and the yield decreases.  I would enjoy similar extended realstically to game:  if herds of tandu are being wiped every day, survival instincts may drive them further away, and hides become tougher to come by.  Random catastrophes (eg., abysmal weather conditions have ruined months' supply of silk) can be drummed up, and costs of fineries rocket and production slows to a temporary crawl.  A street fire has destroyed a strip of warehouses, contents unsalvageable.  Etc.

[Anonymous]

I like that impacting the environment will affect the world.  Log too much of an area, and the yield decreases.  I would enjoy similar extended realstically to game:  if herds of tandu are being wiped every day, survival instincts may drive them further away, and hides become tougher to come by.  Random catastrophes (eg., abysmal weather conditions have ruined months' supply of silk) can be drummed up, and costs of fineries rocket and production slows to a temporary crawl.  A street fire has destroyed a strip of warehouses, contents unsalvageable.  Etc.

The problem with this approach, is that it punishes those who play realistically for the actions of those who play unrealistically.  Those who approach hunting with realism in mind will see their meager earnings dwindle to nothing while those who hunt for days on end will have built up their bank accounts by this time.  Or just died but still had a severe impact on the game.

The sort of approach you describe seems perfect for a single-player game or if the way hunting was done was completely overhauled and instead used 'instanced' (for lack of a better word) NPCs that have a chance to spawn on approach of a PC at a set rate that can be reduced by the staff as a response to unrealistic play.

[Lazloth]

The sort of approach you describe seems perfect for a single-player game or if the way hunting was done was completely overhauled and instead used 'instanced' (for lack of a better word) NPCs that have a chance to spawn on approach of a PC at a set rate that can be reduced by the staff as a response to unrealistic play.

I'm not talking about an immediate ecological response, but a reaction to day after day, week after week camping a given pocket of land by hunters.  It's hard to envision a solitary (twink or no) figure making a noticeable dent in the animal populations; however, if it's groups, tribes, whathaveyou over a period of time, you can certainly affect the world in a multiplayer game.

[Comrade Canadia]

I think this can be left up to imms on a case by case basis.  Also, very good point by Radioactive.  Still, I think the list idea I proposed would still works, it just means that you'll feel a pinch if you trade certain resources as opposed ot no pinch if you trade others.  It completely depends on supply and demand and all those other fun things.

Incidentally, how does the likelihood of an independant to make a decent living have anything to do with this thread at all?

-Dave

[Delirium]

Incidentally, how does the likelihood of an independant to make a decent living have anything to do with this thread at all?

Competition over resources certainly affects the life of an independant, perhaps even moreso than that of a tribe - to approach the topic in a broad sense.

Of course, this is more about whether a certain tribe can afford to trade such and such. To which I say; some tribes are heavily or almost purely hunter-gatherers, trading only what they can spare for the things they can't find on their own, but many tribes seem to almost subsist on trade; making things to barter off for the necessities which they need.

That doesn't mean I think they should be able to make enough wildly-splotched leather thongs for Lord Fancypants to clothe all of his sexy female guards in, but it does mean that trade is part of what the culture is based on - so the thing is not to limit that, but just to decide how much they can afford to trade. Trading off your tribe's water and food and other necessities would get you a boot in the ass, but trading things like alcoholic goods, decorative wear, trinkets, maybe even a very limited supply of weaponry - all of those I see as fair game.

Therefore, I think a very general list like Wiz and Comrade suggested, updated occasionally due to major IC actions or events, would be a very good thing to have. Once they're made, it shouldn't be that much work to keep it updated; just a brief review once a month or so should do the trick.

Now I'm going to stop slacking off and get back to work. Sigh.